CNN has been covering Texas FAR more than Trump this afternoon and evening.
North Korea launches missile that passes over Japan
- Thread starter 8-Bit Sunset
- Start date
CNN has been covering Texas FAR more than Trump this afternoon and evening.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
This is a worrying turn. I hope all actors can work to a peaceful conclusion, but between the clusterfuck that is NK (which is essentially a hostage situation) and the powers in control of both the US and NK, I'm honestly getting a little worried -- especially for those in SK, Japan, coastal US and even in the Vancouver area (as I don't know just how accurate NK missiles would be at long range.)
This certainly isn't helping my anxiety...
Why the fuck would NK need proof that the most powerful military in the history of the planet can fire missiles at it? Un knows that the US is both powerful and has a history of toppling regimes; that's the whole point of his nuclear program (and his own tests) -- to deter the USA from doing so.
This certainly isn't helping my anxiety...
Why the fuck would NK need proof that the most powerful military in the history of the planet can fire missiles at it? Un knows that the US is both powerful and has a history of toppling regimes; that's the whole point of his nuclear program (and his own tests) -- to deter the USA from doing so.
Coriolanus
Banned
Assume they don't interpret whatever you do as just "a reminder".
Factor that they've assloads of biological and chemical weapons, and the means to deliver them to a city with 20 million people very quickly.
Still wanna risk reminding them?
No one said it would. The goal is to not have hundreds of thousands of people dead, not to change the regime.
Are they used to intercept ICBM?
It likely doesn't. That's not a practical goal given the situation. We want the least number of people to die.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
What are you talking about? Where do you get your news because I've gotten multiple alerts on my phone about it occurring.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Holy shit.
Just got caught up on this.
Just got caught up on this.
Okay, this is getting really off track, but this isn't really accurate. Hitler's war was one of expansion. He invaded lands to obtain them for the German people because he believed all nations existed in constant competition over resources and the only way to obtain them for Germany was to take them through military force. He was also a racist who believed that Jewish people were essentially always innately immigrants and foreign invaders who would not be loyal to Europe and were a drain on the expansion of land and on the resources found there. That is, he believed that Jews in Europe worked against the actual goals of his war. Initially, the Germans attempted to expel these "immigrants," offering to send them to other countries (like the US). All of these counties declined taking in refugees.
Only then did the genocide begin in earnest.
Though monstrous, the Nazi ideology was focused on expansionism and nationalism, with genocide and racism as extensions of that (as is so often the case). They were not really any more suicidal than many other expansionist empires that came before or since and to use their behavior as some kind of indication of why North Korea would knowingly destroy itself suggests a lack of understanding of how the Nazis in WW2 viewed their own actions.
Unless your entire point is that NK might lash out in their death throws, which remains a primary reason for why we should not rush to instigate such an ending.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
This whole discussion started because you posted that you thought it best to wait for NK to attack the US, which you then stated wasn't a realistic possibility, hence do nothing.
I had a feeling you were trolling earlier.
I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think NK will attack anyone, and that's why I don't think we should attack them. In that strategy millions of people don't die.
You seem to think I'm unique in my position on this. I haven't seen a single person with knowledge of the situation post in this thread who doesn't agree in general with what I'm saying. It's the de facto stance of the world powers involved in this situation. Your impending nuclear holocaust fear isn't shared by them.
Absolutely. And I think the way to do this is to deal with North Korea now (actually, I think the rest of the world should have dealt with it years ago when North Korea first started to develop nuclear weapons).
Make sure China won't interfere, install best possible missile shield, then set an ultimatum for North Korea to destroy its nuclear stockpile, then strike if necessary.
Btw, it doesn't exactly instill confidence that the US isn't able to destroy any of North Koreas test missiles.
Striking means sacrificing millions of South Koreans, Japanese and Americans. The other option is not attack and masses of people likely don't die ever.
superdeluxe
Member
The last thing you want is military conflict. The best you can hope for is regime collapse or change. Although that could lead to a humanitarian crisis.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So the best way is to start a war that will kill millions of civilians with god know what will happen in the aftermath? You could destabilize and entire region just because of some empty threats and "what if"?
hydragonwarrior
Member
This might sound horrible, but NK kinda has a good set of cards. They can continue to launch missile strikes across Japan and there's not much we can do to retaliate.
Although we know they are violating human rights, perhaps it's an evil thing we must accept (for now) to get them back to the table and get them stop shooting shit and scaring everyone.
And if they are back at the table, then Kim Jong can declare victory to ppl who already think he's a victor.
It looks bad but he has nukes now and the situation is far more tense after NK's latest missile. And at some point the populations in Japan and SK are going to get tired of being scared daily of being attacked (and I doubt they always think about these events as rationally as us armchair politicians who are not in Japan atm)
The alternative is that there's a long term gain by continuing a standoff and the sanctions continue to cause issues within NK. At some point we negotiate "We will lift some sanctions if you stop firing rockets towards Japan."
Although we know they are violating human rights, perhaps it's an evil thing we must accept (for now) to get them back to the table and get them stop shooting shit and scaring everyone.
And if they are back at the table, then Kim Jong can declare victory to ppl who already think he's a victor.
It looks bad but he has nukes now and the situation is far more tense after NK's latest missile. And at some point the populations in Japan and SK are going to get tired of being scared daily of being attacked (and I doubt they always think about these events as rationally as us armchair politicians who are not in Japan atm)
The alternative is that there's a long term gain by continuing a standoff and the sanctions continue to cause issues within NK. At some point we negotiate "We will lift some sanctions if you stop firing rockets towards Japan."
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I believe NK will strike the US or one of our allies before we ever strike them. That's not a nuclear holocaust--the fact that you take every post of mine to the absurd is exactly why I know you are just trolling. You're arguing a stance I haven't taken and ducking any points I've made.
North Korea is a nation driven insane by trauma. It will not respond rationally to violence, or even threats of violence. It will respond like a paranoid schizophrenic... with missiles.
Smiles and Cries
Member
WaterAstro
Member
Well, China said they won't help NK if the other countries were attacked first.
Zetaero757
Neo Member
South Korea ain't scared of an attack. The general sentiment here whenever something like this happens is oh he's acting stupid again?
hydragonwarrior
Member
I was kinda thinking they got used to it, but I'm not sure if Japan's gotten as used to it...
Lol, ducking your points? You're being ridiculous. Oh I'm sorry, you meant attack with nuclear missile, not start a nuclear holocaust. What a dreadful misrepresentation that totally changes your meaning.
Please.
No one who knows anything believes North Korea is likely to, or would benefit from an, attack on anyone with nuclear weapons. Your inability to properly comprehend a New York Times article isn't a point I've left unrefuted, it's a mistake you made about an expert position that doesn't actually exist in real life.
Coriolanus
Banned
Such an action would result in a nuclear holocaust* to the NK regime, which is why they only ever threaten to do it, but never carry it off.
Kharvey has directly answered your points several times. I'm impressed with his patience really. You, however, have failed to show why your beliefs that NK would suddenly stop acting like a rational actor, as the country has done for longer than most of us have been alive, are based on logic.
Insane Metal
Member
So it flew over japan then into the ocean. Good thing we know how reliable DPRK's technology is, so there's no way things like this could go wrong.
/s
/s
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Lol. I'm sure you got that tag of yours by being a bastion of comprehension.
Pentagyon
I can't remember: does the Pentagon typically indicate that the missile didn't threaten the United States? Usually, it's a no-brainer.
Well, we are going in circles. I believe that due to the nature of the North Korean system a peaceful solution is highly unlikely and that the death toll (North Korean, too) will become much greater the longer military action is delayed.
I haven't seen any sensible suggestions on how to end the North Korean threat and dictatorship peacefully. I don't think the "Let's just let them build more and more nuclear warheads and missiles and the problem will go away" strategy is going to work.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
yes. every test they say this
I think they have. This is just a small sample from this morning from a few people but everyone is just fine. Not scared, because it's expected. Everyone went to work as usual. This is in Kantou area.
SDCowboy
Member
Yes they do.
THAAD isn't for ICBM's though. GMD is and it has a pretty bad record so far.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
CRAM is for dealing with smaller and shorter range threats like conventional artillery and small rockets.
BMD is for dealing with larger and longer range missiles, including ICBMs depending on the specifications of both the specific missile you're talking about and the specific interceptor you're talking about.
SDCowboy
Member
Ah true, my bad.
What a terrible situation all around. Really scary, too.
Didn't get an alert and I first read about it after coming to work, since I usually don't watch TV in the morning.
I'm glad that everyone was safe. That said, I don't understand why NK is so willing to risk it. It's one thing to drop missiles into the Ocean, but when you start shooting them over Japan, there's always a risk of them failing and falling down on land, which would probably end very poorly for all parties involved. I assume that if that happened, Japan would have to actually take action.
Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread, but CNBC article has an interesting tidbit in it:
Didn't get an alert and I first read about it after coming to work, since I usually don't watch TV in the morning.
I'm glad that everyone was safe. That said, I don't understand why NK is so willing to risk it. It's one thing to drop missiles into the Ocean, but when you start shooting them over Japan, there's always a risk of them failing and falling down on land, which would probably end very poorly for all parties involved. I assume that if that happened, Japan would have to actually take action.
Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread, but CNBC article has an interesting tidbit in it:
FinaruDensetsu
Member
With all this shit NK is firing into the oceans I hope they've at least found a way for the missiles to land in the ocean and become artificial reefs for fish or something.
astroturfing
Member
i just watched the BBC movie Threads (about nuclear war)..
combined with this, im not gonna sleep well.
combined with this, im not gonna sleep well.
The South Koreans are used to Kim Jong-un by now, so they have no problems seeing his threats for what they are. I guess it's a newer thing for the Japanese so the reaction is different.
Well, the missile had no warhead so that limits the damage that can be inflicted if it crashed.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Over the mainland, Hokkaido specifically.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Nothing. The explicit and implicit costs continue to rise and NK will continue to dictate what they can and can't do. Whether that's conducting tests or accelerating the build up of weapons of mass destruction designed to wipe out their enemies...people have to accept it or be willing to put their lives at risk. Simple as that.
Wow... this is pretty big.
Convincing.
Yes, that was my point. And I think this end is inevitable, and that delaying it will make it worse.
http://jewishjournal.com/cover_story/126291/
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/514237/North-Korea-camps-concentration-death-Auschwitz
None of this is remotely recent news and it's assuredly horrific, but why are you so eager to doom millions to death based on a hunch and an incredibly over-simplified understanding of world history?
Evil is not so unpredictable as you suggest. It is not innately irrational. No individual sets out with the goal of destroying themselves. The logic of tyrants can be studied, understood from the outside, and reacted to. There are experts who have studied North Korea for most of their lives, and they don't believe we should strike at them. The essential flaw with your Nazi comparison is that the Nazis attacked other countries for what they perceived as the betterment of their own people. North Korean leadership is unconcerned with the well being of its own citizens and is exploiting them instead of surrounding nations, because expansion is (and always will be) impossible.
What the North Korean leadership is doing to their own people is barbaric, but it's no reason to sacrifice all of South Korea.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
woof!
Yeah, my interpretation of these events is that North Korean leaders don't want to be invaded by their enemies. Pretty simple.
GameAddict411
Member
They might have nukes, but they are not small enough enough to be put on a rocket or even carried by a plane(at least not by a plane NK had access to). The west and all of Japanese allies should respond accordingly, and from an upper hand. What you are suggesting is bending over.
hamauzu kaito
Member
My Facebook friends have been posting about this all day. Many Japanese people are scared shitless right now and angry. This plays right into Abe's campaign for more offensive weapons capabilities. He was on TV making very rigid and careful statements about the path forward. It will be interesting to see how public opinion changes about his initiative after this missile launch. A few statements from defense force people stating that they know that America is "busy" (double meaning the hurricane and with an inadequate leader?) with their own issues and that they are willing to take whatever step necessary. It seems like he said they are willing to act without the U.S. (can anyone corroborate?) This whole situation is getting out of hand.
As for the trajectory of the rocket. I find it somewhat peculiar. It flew between Hokkaido and Tohoku over the Tsugaru Straights. There has traditionally been dispute over the lands north of pre-meiji mainland Japan (not Hokkaido; it only became part of Japan in 1868). There is an ongoing dispute and historical dispute between Japan and Russia over the Kuril Island Chain. We also have the Sakhalin Island situation. There were reports two weeks that the engines for the new missiles came from Ukraine. It is a very interesting connection although obviously conjecture.
As for the trajectory of the rocket. I find it somewhat peculiar. It flew between Hokkaido and Tohoku over the Tsugaru Straights. There has traditionally been dispute over the lands north of pre-meiji mainland Japan (not Hokkaido; it only became part of Japan in 1868). There is an ongoing dispute and historical dispute between Japan and Russia over the Kuril Island Chain. We also have the Sakhalin Island situation. There were reports two weeks that the engines for the new missiles came from Ukraine. It is a very interesting connection although obviously conjecture.