(Ars Technica) Loot boxes have reached a new low with Forza 7’s “pay to earn” option

When the headline says something has reached a new low, I expect that to mean something substantial. From the body of the article, some pretty major elements to the story:

As of press time, Forza Motorsport 7 does not let you pay real money for its CR coins or for its loot boxes.

Sometime after launch and with game economy balancing, they'll make a real-money paid option available, at which time:

There will also be an option within the in-game menu to turn off Tokens entirely.

This ability to totally disable the presence of the real-world money was already there in Forza 6, and that's a massive point to recognize if you're criticing this (otherwise shitty) practice. Mods as a gameplay mechanic have been in place since then as well. I personally liked that implementation. Just so people understand, the "dare" challenge mods were a persistent option you can apply to a race (for things like giving bonus credits for skipping driving assists) once you earned them. So to say the ability to get bonuses for driving closer to sim settings isn't there is misleading, in this context for Forza 7. It's handled slightly differently, but I don't think it resembles "pay money to earn more for your settings" as the article implies, at least in any meaningful way. In the same way if a game "let" you spend real money to buy game money, and you deliberately bought something useless and common, then criticizing the game for that.

I'm mostly calling bullshit, even having very much "I resent this and don't accept it" attitude about full-price games being compromised by prize-box gambling. This is an article imagining how something could be worse if it were worse, not reporting on a reality or clear, impending problem on the horizon. If things really do end up awful down the road, you can bet I'll be one of the first to lay into the publisher.
 
Most outlets are giving themselves more than 24 hours before giving the game a score.

No doubt once the review scores are all in they will flick the switch and allow the loot boxes to be bought with real money.
I smelled that something was wrong with this game because no reviews... I was expecting something related with the performance on the PC, but this is far worse. I dont like this trend at all.
 
No bonus for removing assists and loot boxes for the bonuses? Eat shit T10 and MS, I bet you kept the usual 10 mil token bait cars as well
 
Most outlets are giving themselves more than 24 hours before giving the game a score.

No doubt once the review scores are all in they will flick the switch and allow the loot boxes to be bought with real money.
Yep, sly
I brought the game (for 3300 Rubles), but will NOT every partake in any loot crate BS that costs real money, is that still bad?
Good enough I guess, for me if I heard a game was this greedy I pass on the game completely won't give them a single cent
 
Just protest this by buying another racing game like Dirt 4 which doesn't have microtransactions. I'm not sure if I'm going to get Forza now to be honest. Not just because of the microtransactions, but because I'm still playing Dirt.
 
I'm going to play devils advocate here.

Games have cost $60 since 2004. Game development costs have risen exponentially. They gotta make their money somewhere if gamers aren't going to pay more thank $60 for games.
Stop, even if games were more expensive this crap would still be in.
 
Forza 7 |OT| Hit the GaaS

fljCnAq.gif
 
Just protest this by buying another racing game like Dirt 4 which doesn't have microtransactions. I'm not sure if I'm going to get Forza now to be honest. Not just because of the microtransactions, but because I'm still playing Dirt.

It is very challenging to absent yourself from the game all your friends are playing, or the game that might actually be really good... minus all the $$$ fuckery.

That's what drives gamers mad. Devs make a great game and then just can't help themselves soil it with absolute bullshit.

Devs and pubs know that, if they've got an otherwise good game on their hands they can get away with absolutely anything because gamers still want to enjoy good games. The better "protest" would probably be if you can wait a bit, and if you buy 2nd hand. If you can opt not to buy at all, fair enough, I just empathise with why it's hard to actually "boycott" *insertModernWarfaresteamboycottpicture.jpg*
 
It's 2017, it is a year where there are lots of loot boxes shenanigans and it is in this very thread that such loot boxes have shown to affect game design by trying to hook player more with psychological that more likely to lead to purchase of said loot boxes and people still saying "bu-but dont just buy it".

Fuck you ignorant bastards. Your selfish,self-centered point of view that enables this kind of scummy practice happening in the industry.
 
Forza has a history of adding in microtransactions after launch, thereby sliding them past reviewers, right?

Yeah I remember something similar earlier as well. Wasnt 100% it was this franchise though.

It is insidious as fuck. Wish reviewers would actually call this shit out.
 
Most outlets are giving themselves more than 24 hours before giving the game a score.

No doubt once the review scores are all in they will flick the switch and allow the loot boxes to be bought with real money.

It really is terrible. Making VIP a consumable with little to no notice is WAY worse than just offering the option of people paying to buy tokens. And they are flat out deleting any threads regarding this at forzamotorsport.net. Mine and 2 others quickly got deleted.
 
Forza has a history of adding in microtransactions after launch, thereby sliding them past reviewers, right?
Yes, however FH3 only used it for buying cars and parts and you can disable the option altogether. The game did have lootbox style stuff with wheelspins but you had to either earn them or pay with in game cash only and all you got was cash, cars, or the horizon edition jackpot cars.

FM7 cranked up the fee to pay hell from like 3 to 12
 
Most outlets are giving themselves more than 24 hours before giving the game a score.

No doubt once the review scores are all in they will flick the switch and allow the loot boxes to be bought with real money.
Truth. They’ll adjust currency earning after the reviews.
 
Considering they say up front you can 100% disable the visibility of any future token purchasing, I think it's not a new low.

I mean... I'd honestly count this as a new low for Forza, because in past entries the game's progression structure hadn't been altered in a way that appeared to be primarily changed to push the tokens.

Calling these loot boxes a new low in general is utterly fucking ridiculous when you glance over at something like Overwatch though.
 
It's shitty but if the game still spams you with gift cars, extra credits and Forza Rewards like up until FH3 it's barely even useful for regular players. I doubt I'll ever feel like I need it and definitely won't buy credits or loot boxes, never have in other games and this one won't be the exception. "New low" is a hyperbole though, giving competitive advantage in loot boxes like COD did it was probably the worst use in triple-A considering it's also selling season passes and such. Maybe Fortnite is the "lowest" as the game is currently paid and it has Farmville-like timers on building and researches unless you pay. Ugh.
 
I won't buy them, just as I didn't buy mods in Forza 6. You still get some mods via leveling, right? And even if not I'll just race using standard rules.
 
There is a wierd scenario with games - from a product perspective - that makes this line of 'some players prefer to pay to jump ahead' argument more insidious than it actually appears.

Take a moment and think of any other product you can buy where you're not entitled to the complete product on principle. Even a magazine subscription - which might stretch over a full year - only requires that you live that long enough for you to get full benefit.

Games are different in that the amount of that product to which you're allowed access is dependent on skiill, time, patience, etc. Assuming the game is fairly balanced and well-made, there shouldn't be any unreasonable impediment to the average player having access to the vast majority of that content - though, it's still murky, there may still be content that you've purchased that you might never access if you're simply not up to the task.

What's more insidious here that you're being asked to pay extra money to access content that you already own. They've locked off a part of something you've already paid for and, in some cases, jacked up the difficulty before asking you to take the lock off.

Loot boxes are more nuanced about how they do this, muddying the realities enough that it can be spun as an additional feature, but if you're looking for a more barefaced version:

https://store.playstation.com/#!/cid=EP0006-BLES01039_00-FNCHAMPBOXCMALL0

Quite literally, a cheat code for sale.
 
Yeah I sorta agree it hasn't hit a "new low" so to speak. I'm still happy to see it called out more and not just accepted, and was an interesting read and of course they design to racer to be more visible to justify the microtransactions, a case of microtransactions clearly affecting design there.

Not sure I understand the writers thoughts on loot boxes either. He says he doesn't forgive them even when implemented sensibly and then further down writes how they should be.

But yeah I feel MS is so into Microtransactions and GAAS in general. Doesn't surprise me I've been less into their exclusives more than ever this gen and I think the problem too is even if just one person buys microtransactions, It can justify putting it in just for that free money, so hard to even combat it even if most don't buy them.
 
Just for a point of reference, unless Forza 7 is unlike every single past game in the series (and the Horizon games), the in-game economy has always resulted in a massive excess of credits without much to spend them on other than the high-end cars. I've literally seen that as a complaint. The crate system itself (ignoring the token purchases) may be an attempt to solve that by giving a "flow" of cars/personalizations/bonuses with a lottery element that makes players want to burn through credits more regularly. If that's handled right, I want that. It's a way to divvy up content already in the game as a reward to playing the game itself. That's the purpose of designing a game economy.

We'll know within the first several days if the money feels artificially scarce.
 
There is a distinction that needs to be made here, and I think Ars Technica is making it but I'm not 100% sure.

Forza 6 had two systems that let you change the parameters of a race for XP or CR gain. The first system, which has been around since Forza 2 or 3, is the assists system that let you customize your difficulty based on vehicle assists and AI difficulty, and based on that you'd get a corresponding penalty or bonus in XP or credits. These were semi-permanent, in that they didn't reset between races but you could change the assist at any time. The second system was mods, which added extra conditions to a specific race for rewards. Sometimes these conditions lined up with the assists system, ex. "turn off the driving line for 10% XP boost." I don't recall if they went as far as, say, "turn off traction control for 20% XP boost" but I think that was an option.

At first, it sounded like Ars Technica was saying that all mods are now locked behind loot boxes, meaning the ability to add extra modifiers to individual races for credit gain were randomly earned. But then they also throw in that adjusting your difficulty by turning assists on and off no longer result in a credit boost or penalty. It SOUNDS like Ars Technica means the assists system. But then they mention doing this on a per-race basis, which sounds like the mods system.

If they've removed the XP/CR boost from the assists system, that seems like a pretty bad way to break your game's economy to fit loot boxes in. If that system is still intact but mods are now only gained via loot boxes instead of you earning them after leveling up, that's not as bad.

EDIT: Also, I'm not one to ever buy VIP rewards, but changing the VIP credit bonus from a permanent one to "lol here's five credit boost mods" seems rather unfortunate. If you're already committed to pay-to-win, Turn 10 just told you your money is worth way less now.
 
Most outlets are giving themselves more than 24 hours before giving the game a score.

No doubt once the review scores are all in they will flick the switch and allow the loot boxes to be bought with real money.
Exactly. That's the new trend.
 
And to think I was actually considering buying an Xbone for this😹

Also, I will not hesitate to skip Gran Turismo Sports if they do anything like this. I almost skipped GT6, the only reason I didn't was because it had a money glitch, otherwise the grind could fuck off
 
When the headline says something has reached a new low, I expect that to mean something substantial. From the body of the article, some pretty major elements to the story:



Sometime after launch and with game economy balancing, they'll make a real-money paid option available, at which time:



This ability to totally disable the presence of the real-world money was already there in Forza 6, and that's a massive point to recognize if you're criticing this (otherwise shitty) practice. Mods as a gameplay mechanic have been in place since then as well. I personally liked that implementation. Just so people understand, the "dare" challenge mods were a persistent option you can apply to a race (for things like giving bonus credits for skipping driving assists) once you earned them. So to say the ability to get bonuses for driving closer to sim settings isn't there is misleading, in this context for Forza 7. It's handled slightly differently, but I don't think it resembles "pay money to earn more for your settings" as the article implies, at least in any meaningful way. In the same way if a game "let" you spend real money to buy game money, and you deliberately bought something useless and common, then criticizing the game for that.

I'm mostly calling bullshit, even having very much "I resent this and don't accept it" attitude about full-price games being compromised by prize-box gambling. This is an article imagining how something could be worse if it were worse, not reporting on a reality or clear, impending problem on the horizon. If things really do end up awful down the road, you can bet I'll be one of the first to lay into the publisher.

Came to post this. Excellent job my good man.

Also, it seems like every new Forza game (including Horizon) has had one of these articles. The option to use tokens has been in FH2 and 3 and I believe FM5 and 6. This is nothing new. It's so unintrusive that people don't really take notice and then they get all ruffled when a new one comes out. Rinse and Repeat.
 
This sounds a lot like Destiny 2's system. My solution is to not spend money and just play the base game.

Basically this. I’ve never paid for any content based on a RNG, and I never will.

The problem is that a lot of people will.
 
It didn't seem so bad until they got to the part where manually turning off assists dont give higher payouts.

This mod system could have been a fun addition, but when you replace things people like to do freely with arbitrary walls,it's a downgrade.
 
VIP system being nerfed plus lootcrates is a recipe for disaster.

Yes.

Huge Forza fan here (Forza Rewards tier 11). I bought every Collector's Edition and Ultimate Edition day 1 and in my opinion Turn 10 can fuck off with this bullshit.

I need to check my playtime for a possible refund.
 
Wow... have the reviews been mentioning this at all?

Read the article, they’re purposely not turning on the paid for tokens in the beginning apparently for ‘balance’. However this conveniently means it won’t get mentioned in reviews as well! Oops.... just a happy accident I’m sure
 
Yes.

Huge Forza fan here (Forza Rewards tier 11). I bought every Collector's Edition and Ultimate Edition day 1 and in my opinion Turn 10 can fuck off with this bullshit.

I need to check my playtime for a possible refund.

If you find the self service refund button let me know because I have 1 hour of play time and can't find it. Might have to contact support to get refund.
 
Takes me back to the introduction of crates and keys in TF2. Never bought a single one.

Won’t buy any of these either.

Honestly I can’t really agree with this sentiment anymore. Just ‘not buying’ them has led to things getting worse and worse every year. The media and consumers need to start speaking up more or it’s just going to get worse and worse. Just ‘not buying’ them has done absolutely nothing to prevent the fact that more and more regular game features are becoming locked behind actual real money gambling
 
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