Eternal Gamer
Member
This is some "gacha" bullshit.
(Ars Technica) Loot boxes have reached a new low with Forza 7s pay to earn option
- Thread starter Toadthemushroom
- Start date
///PATRIOT
Banned
I think a lot of people in this thread doesn't love racing hard enough.
Liliana Eileen
Member
That was confirmed not true pages ago.
Verchod
Member
I read in a review that you can't just buy any car you want just by acquiring the credits. By buying more cars You accumulate Collector XP. This in turn opens up several tiers of cars you can buy. Feels like they're adding more barriers to unlocking stuff in the game.
I can't help but feel this is in some way fueled by this pay to play features in the game. And why should I have to turn OFF a monetizing feature, if there's nothing dodgey about it, then have it off by default
I can't help but feel this is in some way fueled by this pay to play features in the game. And why should I have to turn OFF a monetizing feature, if there's nothing dodgey about it, then have it off by default
Toadthemushroom
Member
Thanks for the explanation. It seems there really are many factors at play in how these mechanics end up in games. Shame.
Btw - i didn't mean to comment on this thread specifically when asking why devs are always having to defend or talk about the mechanics. I was really thinking about that Eurogamer interview with the design director on Shadow of War - he was having to answer all these questions about loot boxes.
I suppose now that game design as a business science is a thing, you're also going to have people hired solely to work on these mechanics since they bring in way more money than the salaries of the people designing them. These developers would be in a place to answer those questions, even if they can't say what they *Really* think about their impact on player behaviour.
On a somewhat related note, I do sometimes feel for the devs having to defend it (like the recent Forza 7 tweets). They are probably under pressure to reach certain milestones in their games' performance (though let's be honest, Forza isn't a series MS Worldwide Publishing/Studios will axe or cut funding from), and Forza 7 is probably under more pressure to deliver than ever considering how MS's first party output is a lot slimmer this year, thus earning the business less revenue. Doesn't make all these game design changes any better but I can understand it.
Slackbladder
Member
This is correct. There are Tiers for car purchases. I am uncertain but it may be that a Tier 5 car can be 'won' from a loot box even if you are Tier 4. That's the only reason to lock cars - if they can be found in loot boxes.
You can still earn more CR by choosing a higher drivatar difficulty.
Loot boxes add nothing to this racing game. More credits? Simply log on to Forza App and earn every week for free. Cosmetics? Optional and superfluous. Cars? Buy with in game money.
I really believe people are obsessing over nothing this time.
lifeexpectancy
Member
Um, as much as I hate microtransactions, this falls right in there with Halo 5's cosmetic microtransactions and Destiny 2's bright engrams. Squarely in the who gives a shit camp.
Now, I recognize that in Forza's case it is arguably worse because it affects the CR rewards you earn... HOWEVER, I have played every forza game on the easiest difficulty with all the assists turned on, aka NO extra CR per race, and I STILL have millions upon millions of CR to dump on whatever ridiculous supercar I desire as I progress through the game.
You simply do not need the extra CR that you gain from turning assists off or ramping up thr difficulty. You gain insane amounts simply playing through the game and doing all the races and challenges.
Then of course there is the ever present argument that these things wouldnt exist if people didnt buy them. So yeah, dont buy them. Problem.solved. This reaks of creating controversy for clicks where there just isnt one.
Now, I recognize that in Forza's case it is arguably worse because it affects the CR rewards you earn... HOWEVER, I have played every forza game on the easiest difficulty with all the assists turned on, aka NO extra CR per race, and I STILL have millions upon millions of CR to dump on whatever ridiculous supercar I desire as I progress through the game.
You simply do not need the extra CR that you gain from turning assists off or ramping up thr difficulty. You gain insane amounts simply playing through the game and doing all the races and challenges.
Then of course there is the ever present argument that these things wouldnt exist if people didnt buy them. So yeah, dont buy them. Problem.solved. This reaks of creating controversy for clicks where there just isnt one.
No. Its Not true. You dont lose it. U Just lose the Progress.
Agreed. I dont get the hate. I think its because its an Xbox game
Exactly. Microsoft, for a really long period of time, has been ignoring the long tail effect. They chase shamelessly after the so-called mainstream players and forget that the minorities of the gaming community in many ways are of the same importance, if not more.
Uuh... You do know there was a lot of backlash to Destiny 2's cosmetics because the function was a step back from the previous games to make the lootbox aspect more attractive (and they also changed the cosmetic engrams to one time consumables rather than an permanent collectables akin to the VIP perks in Forza if I'm reading this thread correct making the comparison to Destiny 2 even more apt), ultimately the whole point of this topic whether or not you feel the content itself is important enough or not to ignore, it's still feature taken away from previous games because lootbox, and one has to wonder how much will they take away in subsequent games until Turn 10/MS gets feedback that they've gone too far, like in NBA 2K18.
Liliana Eileen
Member
That's...what I said, lol. You don't lose mods from restarting a race, that was debunked. Saw lots of people here making a fuss for that when it isn't even true.
Frozenprince
Banned
I haven't played a Forza in forever but didn't they used to have an amazing paint system for their cars? Is that even still a thing with loot boxes being how you get "costumes" now?
If so that's a shame, Forza 2-3 had some amazing custom paint jobs.
If so that's a shame, Forza 2-3 had some amazing custom paint jobs.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
It still has the livery editor. Ive also read that you can import liveries from FM5, FM6, FH2 and FH3.
styl3s
Member
Do you expect to earn enough credits in 15 minutes? Hour sounds reasonable to me but it also doesn't change the fact that how they are handled and what comes in them is bullshit.
If it were purely driver skins I wouldn't care in the slightest.
GHG
Member
Yes, it's all because it's an Xbox game, I mean it's not like the following have happened:
- VIP rewards were made consumable mods without informing the loyal fans of the series who flocked to pre order that version of the game.
- When this was uncovered they have since cleaned up FM.net deleting any thread that wants to talk about this and ask why they thought it was ok to deceive their fans.
- Dan Greenawalt responds on Twitter with this IDGAF handslap.
- They've also removed the credit rewards for players who like to play with assists off, thus making it more difficult to earn credits (because credits can be used to buy lootboxes)
- This then means that those who only want to play online will have a more difficult time of getting credits
- Car prices have been increased
- Manufacterer affinity is also gone
- Certain cars/items can only be obtained from lootboxes
- They have delayed introducing the option of purchasing lootboxes until after the reviews are in.
If you want to read more then there is also this post on Reddit which summarises a lot of what's going on:
https://amp.reddit.com/r/forza/comments/73g7do/ive_worked_in_mobile_gaming_for_nearly_a_decade_i/
You can also go to Forza's official forums where people are discussing these issues (when the threads aren't getting deleted).
Of course, there are some people who can turn a blind eye to all of this and just enjoy the game (credit to them, but that doesn't mean everybody should). Unfortunately for you this thread exists to discuss how this disgusting practice is altering game design in the name of physiologically manipulating players to spend money in a gambling simulator with a $60-$10 entrance fee (those who spend $100 now get some extra free spins, yay!). This latest example this year is Forza 7 which so happens to be an Xbox exclusive.
So if this thread or any of the information in this post makes you feel uncomfortable, or makes you wonder why people are saying bad things about Xbox/Microsoft then please tweet Phil Spencer, tweet Major Nelson, tweet Dan Greenawalt and ask them why they are doing this.
Leyasu
Banned
Dat justification and explanation. You have put in some serious overtime on this thread. But then again, you're a familiar face in Xbox threads.
Anyway, I didn't get around to downloading this yesterday but will today. Not one post in this thread has put me off.. I'm 100% sure that I won't need to spend an extra quid on this game either.
GHG
Member
If you have a problem with me then PM me.
Also the thread isn't supposed to put people off buying the game entirely, it's to inform people of what they are getting themselves in to. Especially those who have or were considering buying the ultimate edition.
IISANDERII
Member
I always tend to end up with tens of millions in used credits also in each Forza games, though I don't use many assists. There is one Forza that's an exception however... the original Forza Horizon.
I had plenty of cash to buy whatever I wanted during my progress through the main campaign, but that all changed once the 1000 Club update hit, and I started attempting to buy every car in order to complete each of their challenges. A handful of 5-10mil cars later, and I was (and still am) absolutely fucking broke, with no real ways to gain credits rapidly as I've already done all of the game's content and levelled up to the limit.
I didn't have any issues buying every car in other games such as Horizon 2 and Motorsport 5 (haven't done so in 6, but have in excess of 100mil spare, so probably can)... but combining both the reduced payouts (I've always previously been VIP), along with the car level acting as a credit sink for cars you may not want, there's definitely potential for players to feel a credit pinch if the easy credits stop coming in over time.
Fortinbras
Member
They've now changed the description of the VIP membership on the store page.
Now it clearly states that VIP credit bonus mods are consumables. Overall the description is still lacking because it hides the shitty value of the VIP membership.
People who preordered the Deluxe Edition weeks or months ago are in for a nice surprise on the 3rd.
Sanctuary
Member
This is what happens when horse armor is seen not as a big deal, or welcomed with open arms. The writing was on the wall in 2006.
ScaryShark
Banned
Payable? Mass Effect 3, 5 years ago. CS:GO is when they want big time though.
PhantomThief
Banned
Bullshit. Stop making apolagies for this lootbox shit, which doesnt belong in full priced games bruh.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
And since '04? More like since forever. There's no execuse for gambling mechanics like that, especially if you might not even get the bonus if you don't fulfil the requirement during the race even.
As far as I know the first major game to have payable loot crates was the PC version of Team Fortress 2, which added them in the September 30th, 2010 Mann-Conomy update to the game.
I don't know of any other major games before TF2 that use the current free gameplay content (maps/weapons/modes) in exchange for paid for cosmetics and loot boxes that's so popular now.
Valve announced they made 4 times more money from the in game store than sales of the game and when they switched to a F2P model they made 12 times more money than their monthly sales.
GAF already hates Valve for not making Half Life 3 and Portal 3, now GAF can hate Valve for basically creating and proving how successful the loot box model can be.
wapplew
Member
Fifa ultimate team started card packs way back in 2008, that's the earliest randomize micro transaction I can think of.
GHG
Member
It's sad that they have gone this route instead of actually addressing their customers.
Fortinbras
Member
It's worse in 7.
I followed the series since Forza 2. Sadly that behavior is not surprising for Turn 10.
Fortinbras
Member
Sorry double post.
ScaryShark
Banned
You're right. Those were purely cosmetic though. ME3 was the first to actually include gameplay elements in them.
Rellik
Member
FIFA was doing it before both. A long time before.
ScaryShark
Banned
Those aren't 'loot crates' though and it's a mode in and of itself. It'd be like describing a CCG as a 'loot crate' system. FUT in 09 was also a DLC that the player had to opt in to initially.
FUT started March of 2009. That's not a 'long time before' TF2.
I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that blind-buy cards and such don't suffer from much the same problems as loot-crates. They're just longer established, so less controversial.
But isn't in FUT's case you can buy specific players if you want? Granted you need Fifa bucks for it, but it's less shitty than pure chance.
ScaryShark
Banned
I'm not arguing that, but they are different. FUT is a CCG through and through. It's also completely detached from everything else in that game. Most of the newer implementations of loot crates, post-Mass Effect 3 are more direct ancestors of the Forza 7 situation and what the article is talking about.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, you can bet your boots there is some serious R&D put into the balance between earning credits normally and trying to get a portion of gamers to cash out. The South Park freemium episode is still funny today.
Good post, and this thread is existing on its own to discuss Forza 7 and wider consequences of other games doing the same. It's not as if we're all bombing the official topic or review thread.
To be expected but that was a required edit. It's pretty shameful it wasn't clear upfront, but then again this is the developer who turns on paid for credit weeks after release to avoid negative reviews/negative feedback. All part of the short term exploitation to mitigate negative feedback.
Jeff Freecss
Member
There are obvious legit concern here.
BUT
I really dont understand why so many people here act like theyve played the game already. Are you guys telling me you all bought the Ultimate edition? I thought NeoGaf is so tired of Forza already 10 years ago?
I also dont like the way they handle VIPs and you dont have to play the game to understand the change. But The sense of progression system in Forza 7 is just not something you can grab without playing the game. And the reviews I saw so far obviously dont think its a big deal either.
So instead of pretending you know something, why dont we wait for official release and let us who bought the ordinary version test it out for you?
BUT
I really dont understand why so many people here act like theyve played the game already. Are you guys telling me you all bought the Ultimate edition? I thought NeoGaf is so tired of Forza already 10 years ago?
I also dont like the way they handle VIPs and you dont have to play the game to understand the change. But The sense of progression system in Forza 7 is just not something you can grab without playing the game. And the reviews I saw so far obviously dont think its a big deal either.
So instead of pretending you know something, why dont we wait for official release and let us who bought the ordinary version test it out for you?
You don't have to play the game to know that something you previously enjoyed is now locked behind a wall
The facts are 1) there are items locked behind a lootcrate wall, that were previously obtainable through in-game credits. 2) they have removed assist bonuses- a popular avenuefor obtaining in-game credits. 3) assist bonuses have been replaced by consumable mods obtained in loot crates.
All of these actions are intended to push players towards buying tokens.
I've just fired up FM4 and what a big difference it is to FM6 and 5 in terms of structure and design. I guess it was going to be inevitable, with slot machines and dice rolls making appearances in FH2(?) and unicorns that were impossible to buy unless you entered the right events at the right time, or had the VIP pass.
Thankfully I still have FM4 to complete (didn't realise I hadn't) as well as FH1-3, FM5 and FM6 to finish off.
Thankfully I still have FM4 to complete (didn't realise I hadn't) as well as FH1-3, FM5 and FM6 to finish off.
Jeff Freecss
Member
I dont understand this lock behind loot crate wall theory. Its not like there are cars you can only obtain through loot box. All the cars are still purchasable. The only difference is the buying rank. And most the reviews mention this all say it not only is it not too grindy, it also gives you a sense of progression and encourage you to try more things the game has to offer.
Remove assist bonus is kind of strange. But if the sense of obtaining credits is the same. It might not be a problem. Plus it may even encourage more mod usage. Again, this is something you have to play to know.
Mods was also obtained by chance in Forza 6. The usecase is still the same. It did not replace the assist bonus. It was always there. Many reviewers thought the mods are interesting but complained that there is no reason to use them. And now you have. I dont think its inherently a bad thing because you get to open a loot box almost after every race. The chances of having no mods to use is pretty low. Still, I would say this is something you have to play to really know if its bad or not.
Does the system encourage more money spending? Sure. But whether the game is only enjoyable if you pay is another question. I dont see why we cant wait to truly know the answer.
GHG
Member
1. People are already playing this.
2. There are cars, gear and mods locked behind lootboxes.
3. The sense of obtaining credits is now not the same for those who don't want to bother with mods or for those who only play online.
That's the dictionary definition of Bait 'n' Switch, right there. Anyone dared to ctrl-f 'class action' on the official forums yet?