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[Onyar]

This sounds like some mental gymnastics to be honest. If you start to do that kind of reasoning, you might also say the police just came to get the ballot boxes, so they didn't stop anyone from voting.

The difference is that the spanish police didn't want to take the boxes, in fact the catalan police stopped more voting points than the spanish. The spanish police want to hurt people.

Doesn't matter if a generic "referendum" is legal or not. Having one for independence can be illegal. Using a gun can be legal or illegal depending on how it's used, for example.

Thus independence referendum was illegal.

We had already one referendum not long ago, Spanish didn't care at all and nothing happened, people who want to vote voted, and the central goverment didn't credit to it.

As a private citizen you can do that, you can't use public funds or entities for it though. Administrations are only allowed to call for votes over things that they can decide by themselves.

As the catalans we can't decide from ourselves? You mean we can't decide from things that aren't legal, but we are back to the origin, we should be allowed to vote everything.

 

[Funky Papa]

Those fluent in Spanish (or armed with Googletrans) can follow the tweets of Bufet Almeida about this mess. It's one of Barcelona's leading law firms and probably the most respected in Spain regarding digital rights. They've been dismantling the "disconnection laws" for a while and explaining why yesterday's pantomime has no legal meaning at all, but still puts the Catalonian government in an extremely difficult position.

The referendum isn't ilegal, Spanish laws allow all the referendums, the question may be ilegal, but the act was 100% legal. The only thing that had to do the spanish goverment is saying the question was ilegal and so don't gave any legality to the voting.
But no, they used their police to hit voters that were doing NOTHING ilegal.

The referendum only came to pass by enacting a law that was promptly declared ilegal. As such, it was a referendum held under a government deciding it was not bound by Spanish laws. Worse, even, it had a well defined and clearly ilegal goal: to allow an UDI.

Voters were not doing something ilegal by voting and should have not been hit. That's where Rajoy lost the plot. The referendum itself (the legal act with political implications) was.

The rest is just chasing tails.

And that Juntxsi wants to only talk about a dui it's also false, it's the mantra that the spanish media says that it's false.
The great majority of the independentists want a legal referendum and that's what they want to dialogue.

It's really frightening see how spanish people don't understand the catalan situation.

Do you know what's also frightening? That so many nationalists substitute reality with their own when they are not getting what they want. The Conseller de Presidencia de la Generalitat, Jordi Turull, has already said, on the record, on national radio, today, that they won't renounce a declaration of independence.

-"I'm telling you, our commitment to the people of Catalonia is irrevocable"
-"The independence?"
-"Yes. But we want to parlay. We want to engage in politics. That's we've been asked for"

Minute 4:40 http://cadenaser.com/programa/2017/10/11/hoy_por_hoy/1507692864_976179.html

The rest of the interview is just Turull trying to weasel out of the interviewer's questions by saying that they want to negotiate some extremely nebulous terms by means of quantum linguistics, but as the yanks say, them's the breaks. The point is that they want to see what the Spanish government offers to the Catalonian government but without standing down on their intention of declaring the independence of Catalonia.

So at best, he's a liar, full of shit and using that worthless memorandum of intention towards the proclamation of the independence of Catalonia as a shield, knowing that it has no legal value. At worst, he's actually validating what was put into that document, passing it as factual and binding no matter the situation.

That is not negotiating in good faith. That's the contrary of it.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Hang on, is this Brexit all over again?

A politician seeks to strengthen their position by calling for a vote on something they didn't plan on getting this far. Now it has reached a point of no return and their wondering whether or not to jump off a cliff?

This sounds like it was only really done to strengthen a negotiation position. They wanted a win and thought by having a referendum Spain would have to give them concessions. Except Spain isn't giving in and is totally calling their bluff and know this whole thing looks like it might fall apart.

Is that what's happening?

 

[curi0usBystander]

The fuck is going on? Independent or not independent? Feels like a complete charade...

I'll try to summarize what happened.
Puigdemont said that according to the Article 4.4 of the (suspended) law of referendum he (well the parliament) had the mandate (of the people) to declare independece but that he asked the parliament to suspended it's effects to negotiate.

But here's the thing the parliament voted nothing. Then the independentist MP signed a kind of symbolic declaration of independence that didn't include nothing about the suspension.

And today (less than an hour ago) the spanish goverment has said that they have to clarify if they declared independence (so they can justify the article 155) or they didn't.

 

[catashtrophe]

One thing i don't get is why the EU leaders have barely reacted to anything going on in Spain during this crisis and why is the Euro not been negatively affected?

In comparison, EU leaders react to everything linked to Brexit and the £ drops again and again.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The difference is that the spanish police didn't want to take the boxes, in fact the catalan police stopped more voting points than the spanish. The spanish police want to hurt people.

Like I said, you are using strange reasoning. And with that logic you can twist all sorts of things.

We had already one referendum not long ago, Spanish didn't care at all and nothing happened, people who want to vote voted, and the central goverment didn't credit to it.

As the catalans we can't decide from ourselves? You mean we can't decide from things that aren't legal, but we are back to the origin, we should be allowed to vote everything.

With this referendum the Catalonian government literally said they would declare independence within 48 hours after winning the vote. So of course the Spanish government cared.

The idea of "we should be allowed to vote for everything" is not a really good one. So now you have an independent Catalonia. But also with a lot of people who don't want it. Can they split up their cities and neighborhoods? How does this end?

That is not even getting into that there is literally no plan from the Catalonian government about what they want to do and how to achieve it. They say they won the vote. But they don't know what to do with it. There has been no thought whatsoever about their next step. And if you don't have that, maybe thinking about independence is a bit too early.

 

[marcbret87]

One thing i don't get is why the EU leaders have barely reacted to anything going on in Spain during this crisis and why is the Euro not been negatively affected?

In comparison, EU leaders react to everything linked to Brexit and the £ drops again and again.

Because the UK is about ten times the size of Catalonia. Also, because Catalonia wanting secession is purely an internal matter of Spain.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

One thing i don't get is why the EU leaders have barely reacted to anything going on in Spain during this crisis and why is the Euro not been negatively affected?

In comparison, EU leaders react to everything linked to Brexit and the £ drops again and again.

The EU has come out as viewing the vote as illegal. Plus they have a vest interest in not encouraging similar acts in their own countries.

 

[KingSnake]

One thing i don't get is why the EU leaders have barely reacted to anything going on in Spain during this crisis and why is the Euro not been negatively affected?

In comparison, EU leaders react to everything linked to Brexit and the £ drops again and again.

How should EU leaders react? It's an internal problem of Spain. Catalonia's independence would hurt EU both economically (a weaker Spain) and by encouraging other separatist movements.

 

[valkyre]

I'll try to summarize what happened.
Puigdemont said that according to the Article 4.4 of the (suspended) law of referendum he (well the parliament) had the mandate (of the people) to declare independece but that he asked the parliament to suspended it's effects to negotiate.

But here's the thing the parliament voted nothing. Then the independentist MP signed a kind of symbolic declaration of independence that didn't include nothing about the suspension.

And today (less than an hour ago) the spanish goverment has said that they have to clarify if they declared independence (so they can justify the article 155) or they didn't.

Thanks a lot for this. Feels like a mess...

 

[Funky Papa]

Thanks a lot for this. Feels like a mess...

Press agency EFE put it best:

The president of the Generalitat, Carles Puigdemont, has declared today the idependence of Catalonia at the Parlament after the 1-O referendum, which was suspended by the Constitutional Court, in application of the referendum law, also suspended, but he has suspended its effects to "dialogue".

Pure poetry.


All things considered, I feel like Rajoy has taken the right decision. He has activated the legal basis to invoke the 155 while asking Puigdemont to clarify his position and explain if he has truly proclaimed the independence of Catalonia before taking any further measures. As I hoped, he's waiting this out. So now:

-If Puigdemont claims that he has declared independence, 155 comes into play and regional elections will be held in a few months. Potentially messy, but it provides Rajoy with a massive legal basis for it.

-If Puigdemont claims that he did not proclaim independence, he'll be deemed a traitor to the people and taken to the slaughterhouse by his fellow travellers. Countless memes will ensue.


Stealing a joke from a friend from Lugo, Puigdemont is about to discover what happens when you try to out-obfuscate a Galician.

 

[valkyre]

Press agency EFE put it best:

The president of the Generalitat, Carles Puigdemont, has declared today the idependence of Catalonia at the Parlament after the 1-O referendum, which was suspended by the Constitutional Court, in application of the referendum law, also suspended, but he has suspended its effects to "dialogue".

lol

Had to read it 3 times slowly... Headache!

 

[barber]

Stealing a joke from a friend from Lugo, Puigdemont is about to discover what happens when you try to out-obfuscate a Galician.

I mean when i read it my first reaction was : "well, galician blood flows into all of spanish politicians".
PSOE says that they want to change the constitution it seems, maaaybe stuff will work out? EDIT:

Spoiler

They could even add asturian as a proper protected language now that the asturian PSOE said it will push for that, please?

 

[Onyar]

Those fluent in Spanish (or armed with Googletrans) can follow the tweets of Bufet Almeida about this mess. It's one of Barcelona's leading law firms and probably the most respected in Spain regarding digital rights. They've been dismantling the "disconnection laws" for a while and explaining why yesterday's pantomime has no legal meaning at all, but still puts the Catalonian government in an extremely difficult position.


The referendum only came to pass by enacting a law that was promptly declared ilegal. As such, it was a referendum held under a government deciding it was not bound by Spanish laws. Worse, even, it had a well defined and clearly ilegal goal: to allow an UDI.

Voters were not doing something ilegal by voting and should have not been hit. That's where Rajoy lost the plot. The referendum itself (the legal act with political implications) was.

The rest is just chasing tails.


Do you know what's also frightening? That so many nationalists substitute reality with their own when they are not getting what they want. The Conseller de Presidencia de la Generalitat, Jordi Turull, has already said, on the record, on national radio, today, that they won't renounce a declaration of independence.

-"I'm telling you, our commitment to the people of Catalonia is irrevocable"
-"The independence?"
-"Yes. But we want to parlay. We want to engage in politics. That's we've been asked for"

Minute 4:40 http://cadenaser.com/programa/2017/10/11/hoy_por_hoy/1507692864_976179.html

The rest of the interview is just Turull trying to weasel out of the interviewer's questions by saying that they want to negotiate some extremely nebulous terms by means of quantum linguistics, but as the yanks say, them's the breaks. The point is that they want to see what the Spanish government offers to the Catalonian government but without standing down on their intention of declaring the independence of Catalonia.

So at best, he's a liar, full of shit and using that worthless memorandum of intention towards the proclamation of the independence of Catalonia as a shield, knowing that it has no legal value. At worst, he's actually validating what was put into that document, passing it as factual and binding no matter the situation.

That is not negotiating in good faith. That's the contrary of it.

-Spain declared the referendum ilegal, that means that PP do something ilegal, that is blocking a referendum. More than that, PP has been jumping over the fence of their beloved constitution over and over this last days. Probably the most easy to see fact is to send the spanish police to do a political work how it's hitting innocent voters.

Also the referendum doesn't need to be "binding", sorry I don't know the expression in English.

- About the second point, why you do feel he lied? Because he said the results of the referendum should be taked into account and so declare the independence?

It's the strengh of the Govern, we did a referendum against all odds, Even with votes stoled by the spanish and the catalan police. Even that a lot of people in Catalonia voted for secession, that can't be denied and even it isn't ilegal from the spanish laws it should be taked into account to open a dialogue process to solve a big problem, not only hidding the problem behind the immortal and superior spanish law.

 

[ClosingADoor]

-Spain declared the referendum ilegal, that means that PP do something ilegal, that is blocking a referendum. More than that, PP has been jumping over the fence of their beloved constitution over and over this last days. Probably the most easy to see fact is to send the spanish police to do a political work how it's hitting innocent voters.

Also the referendum doesn't need to be "binding", sorry I don't know the expression in English.

- About the second point, why you do feel he lied? Because he said the results of the referendum should be taked into account and so declare the independence?

It's the strengh of the Govern, we did a referendum against all odds, Even with votes stoled by the spanish and the catalan police. Even that a lot of people in Catalonia voted for secession, that can't be denied and even it isn't ilegal from the spanish laws it should be taked into account to open a dialogue process to solve a big problem, not only hidding the problem behind the immortal and superior spanish law.

If the referendum is illegal, how is blocking the referendum illegal? This makes no sense.

If the referendum doesn't need to be binding, how come they said within 48 hours after results they would declare independence? Sounds pretty binding to me.

The only thing we can't deny is that a lot of people voted - but we have no clear insight in whether this all went well, people voting multiple times, if all votes are valid, etc - in a referendum that holds no legal grounds. And that even based on the numbers Catalonia put out we can't say the majority of Catalonia is in favor of independence. How is this the will of the people they are talking about if it isn't even a clear majority?

The dialogue you talk about is impossible, when one of the parties has already said they want to declare independence. What is there to talk about exactly here? Are you expecting Spain to come to the table and discuss how Catalonia can best declare independence or something?

 

[deathkiller]

When they say "talk" they mean to holding another referendum but this time agreed and legal. Obviously they don't want to say that openly because it means admitting that the 1-O was worthless as a vote.

But they are not so insane to believe that is possible to convince Spain to accept the results of the 1-O. Not now not ever. In the case of CUP they just don't care and want to fight for the independence street by street.

 

[turmoil]

So I take that the proposed constitutional reform would just comprise the autonomies and cultures/lenguajes a little instead of going full anime federal republic, right? Otherwise I don't see it gathering enough conservative support.

 

[forknknife]

The difference is that the spanish police didn't want to take the boxes, in fact the catalan police stopped more voting points than the spanish. The spanish police want to hurt people.

That argument is... think about it.

So the mossos closed more polling stations than the Spanish national police and Guardia civil.

What does that tell you? That people resisted ONLY against the Spanish police while they allowed the locals do as they pleased. Why would that be? Could it be because the main goal was to just disobey the Spanish authority rather than making that referendum happen?

I find that a really hypocritical stance.

 

[deathkiller]

I wonder if the pro-independence understand that nobody outside Spain will care if they protest a dissolution of their regional self-govern rights. The "police brutality against voters in Spain!!" headers was an one time thing that won't be repeated if the police brutality happens for other reasons.

 

[Pancake Mix]

He's not speaking about the 1-O I believe, but what some polls for various media reported. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Oops, about having a vote at all, nvm. My bad.

 

[Night Terror]

That is fake news and should not be repeated.

There were irregularities, attempts to stop the vote, and a mass boycott from the no camp, leading to a turnout in the low 40's at best, and that's if you believe the Catalan government (there were essentially no international observers either).

Support is quite clearly nothing like that.

He's not speaking about the 1-O I believe, but what some polls for various media reported. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

Puigdemented's last tweet:

"You ask for negotiations and you get the article 155. Understood."

This guy.

 

[KingSnake]

Puigdemented's last tweet:

"You ask for negotiations and you get the article 155. Understood."

This guy.

Sounds like wishful thinking.

 

[deathkiller]

He was only asked to commit political harakiri by being honest about what they did on the 10th of October. It was a good move for Rajoy in the "not my fault" war.

 

[Business]

Puigdemented's last tweet:

"You ask for negotiations and you get the article 155. Understood."

This guy.

The last one you ignored was actually this one with threats by a Spanish police union.

"#Shall we talk?"

But that's totally fine they are lovely chaps, the police, the good guys, how can one not feel represented.

The latest one now is a Human Rights Watch report - Spain: Police Used Excessive Force in Catalonia Hold Independent Investigation into Violence During Referendum https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia. I'm a bit confused because these days I was reading the police answer was proportionate to people doing unlawful acts and using elders as human shields and provoking and attacking police and everyhing was very exaggerated anyway with doctors throwing fake injured numbers left and right.

Under international human rights standards, Spain should ensure that all those who have a credible claim their rights were violated, in particular as a result of alleged police abuse, have an effective remedy available to them to investigate, and if necessary redress, the potential rights violations. If domestic remedies are inadequate or unable to provide a satisfactory outcome for alleged victims, then individuals have the right to go to the European Court of Human Rights to have the actions of the Spanish authorities investigated and judged for their human rights compliance.

Any bets on how Spanish justice (which is of course totally independent from the political power) will do for adequate domestic remedies?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Twitter is a mistake. Can all politicians please get off it. And can organisations only use it for information purposes. Nobody is being helped by putting your bullshit on there.

Don't really know what the argument is, SpeedOfNuts. I think most people here agree there were instances where the police used too much violence.

 

[onesvenus]

Press agency EFE put it best:

-If Puigdemont claims that he has declared independence, 155 comes into play and regional elections will be held in a few months. Potentially messy, but it provides Rajoy with a massive legal basis for it.

This still baffles me and I can't really understand the rationale behind it. Without taking into account the number of Yes votes(+2M) in the referendum and resorting to the last "legal" elections results, the Yes votes account for 1.96M with a 78% of participants, the highest participation in regional elections in Catalonia.

What is supposed to happen with a new election? For context, 1.96M votes is 47.8% of the total, while the NO parties account for 1.6M votes or a 39.11% of the total number of votes.
Is Madrid hoping 400K votes go from the YES parties to the NO ones? Based on what? Do they really think people who voted independence are going to change their opinion by fear?
Or does Madrid intend to ban some pro-independency parties like CUP to level the field? Would that really be a good way to solve the problem?

In my humble opinion, applying 155 and holding Catalan elections is based on the belief that everything that's happening in Catalonia is because some politicians want the independency and they have manipulated the people. What will happen if they force new elections in Catalonia without banning any party is that the pro-independency parties will win again and the same situation will repeat but with new players. That will solve absolutely nothing.

 

[Onyar]

If the referendum is illegal, how is blocking the referendum illegal? This makes no sense.

If the referendum doesn't need to be binding, how come they said within 48 hours after results they would declare independence? Sounds pretty binding to me.

The only thing we can't deny is that a lot of people voted - but we have no clear insight in whether this all went well, people voting multiple times, if all votes are valid, etc - in a referendum that holds no legal grounds. And that even based on the numbers Catalonia put out we can't say the majority of Catalonia is in favor of independence. How is this the will of the people they are talking about if it isn't even a clear majority?

The dialogue you talk about is impossible, when one of the parties has already said they want to declare independence. What is there to talk about exactly here? Are you expecting Spain to come to the table and discuss how Catalonia can best declare independence or something?

I meaned that a referendum doesn't necesary it's binding, this one it was tried to be, by the catalan goverment, but for sure it wasn't for the spanish one.

People voting multiple times its false, the any proves more than some fotos and videos that could be uncontextualized or photoshoped. On the other side I'm not pro-UDI, I think that the referendum couldn't be done in a correct way because the estate boycotted using violence. So our goal should be that there's a lot of catalan people who really want to vote a referendum and we should dialogue to make one like Scotland did, a pacted one.

That argument is... think about it.

So the mossos closed more polling stations than the Spanish national police and Guardia civil.

What does that tell you? That people resisted ONLY against the Spanish police while they allowed the locals do as they pleased. Why would that be? Could it be because the main goal was to just disobey the Spanish authority rather than making that referendum happen?

I find that a really hypocritical stance.

Because Mossos wasn't politized like the Guardia Civil, they just did their job, closing voting points, before the people arrived. All the places where mossos closed there was no need of violence, just they came around 2 or 3 am where nobody or only few people was there. Guardia civil came when the cue to enter the voting points was around 2 or 3 hours, GC came to do fear and cause violence.


By the way, a union of the national police just posted this:

[https://twitter.com/ufpol/status/918224516471549952?ref_src=twsrc^tfw]
[https://twitter.com/ufpol/status/917313105398587392/photo/1]

This people is sick, this is how they want us to feel more spaniards?

 

[Business]

Twitter is a mistake. Can all politicians please get off it. And can organisations only use it for information purposes. Nobody is beiazing helped by putting your bullshit on there.

Don't really know what the argument is, SpeedOfNuts. I think most people here agree there were instances where the police used too much violence.

My point is for 7 years Catalonia has tried it all for an agreed referendum with the state. When you have an overwhelming majority of people in favour for one, the answer of the state has to be political. You can't just tell people they have been brainwased indoctrinated and manipulated, that they are ignorant and don't know what's good for them, that if they manage to go you'll make everything in your hand to screw them up. Get off your high horse because guess what, maybe you are wrong. Besides, that might be news for some but people have the right to be wrong, that's how democracy works.

The answer of the state can't be only repression, physical violence or violating basic rights of people as of lately, or in other instances essentially manipulating elections with accusations of alleged corruption to Catalan politicians (that have been proven false later) during electoral campaings no less, using fake reports. I'm talking the cases of Mas and Trias and the audio tapes of Jorge Fernandez Diaz (Spanish Minister of Defence). These things happen and have no consequence for those involved in the joke that is the Spanish state.

Can you just imagine the consequences if it had been the Catalan police posting a photo posing like ISIS wannabes threatening the Spanish president? They would be already in custody. What's gonna happen to these Spanish policemen? At best a verbal reprimand at worst a pat in the back.

 

[ClosingADoor]

My point is for 7 years Catalonia has tried it all for an agreed referendum with the state. When you have an overwhelming majority of people in favour for one, the answer of the state has to be political. You can't just tell people they have been brainwased indoctrinated and manipulated, that they are ignorant and don't know what's good for them, that if they manage to go you'll make everything in your hand to screw them up. Get off your high horse because guess what, maybe you are wrong. Besides, that might be news for some but people have the right to be wrong, that's how democracy works.

The answer of the state can't be only repression, physical violence or violating basic rights of people as of lately, or in other instances essentially manipulating elections with accusations of alleged corruption to Catalan politicians (that have been proven false later) during electoral campaings no less, using fake reports. I'm talking the cases of Mas and Trias and the audio tapes of Jorge Fernandez Diaz (Spanish Minister of Defence). These things happen and have no consequence for those involved in the joke that is the Spanish state.

Can you just imagine the consequences if it had been the Catalan police posting a photo posing like ISIS wannabes threatening the Spanish president? They would be already in custody. What's gonna happen to these Spanish policemen? At best a verbal reprimand at worst a pat in the back.

That people have the right to be wrong, also means others can call them out for being wrong. That is not sitting on a high horse. Not everyone is out to get you. Sometimes people just think you are making the wrong choice. And in this case, without even a clear majority, so it is kind of hard to file this under "democracy".

I am not denying Spain is screwing up. I even said so in the post you quote, that this stuff doesn't help anyone. But at the same time, I think what Catalonia is doing at the moment is very dangerous, both for its own region as the wider world. They are using a referendum that everyone agrees on can not be taken as a trustworthy indicator, with a pretty low turnout also, to justify declaring independence.

Now, of course a lot of blame for that is on Spain and how they handled the situation, but that does not mean we should excuse Catalonia for their mistakes at the moment.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

I have no resolution to offer for the independence issue, but with messages like what police is tweeting out I can't blame Catalonians for not feeling like part of Spain. Seems like hatred towards them is real?

 

[ClosingADoor]

I have no resolution to offer for the independence issue, but with messages like what police is tweeting out I can't blame Catalonians for not feeling like part of Spain. Seems like hatred towards them is real?

The one running that account should be fired. There is a ton of totally unprofessional stuff on there.

 

[Business]

That people have the right to be wrong, also means others can call them out for being wrong. That is not sitting on a high horse. Not everyone is out to get you. Sometimes people just think you are making the wrong choice. And in this case, without even a clear majority, so it is kind of hard to file this under "democracy".

I am not denying Spain is screwing up. I even said so in the post you quote, that this stuff doesn't help anyone. But at the same time, I think what Catalonia is doing at the moment is very dangerous, both for its own region as the wider world. They are using a referendum that everyone agrees on can not be taken as a trustworthy indicator, with a pretty low turnout also, to justify declaring independence.

Now, of course a lot of blame for that is on Spain and how they handled the situation, but that does not mean we should excuse Catalonia for their mistakes at the moment.

No, others can call them for thinking they are wrong. Because the other side, it's painfuly obvious, thinks you are the one wrong. The way we solve these conflicts in the civilized world is called democracy.

As for the referendum, with the Spanish state having said it will never agree on one (that is the majority of Spanish parties representing the majority of Spanish votes, PP PSOE and C's) and if the Catalans will never have the required majority to push for a constitutional change, what would be your proposal?

 

[Psyrgery ES]

The last one you ignored was actually this one with threats by a Spanish police union.



"#Shall we talk?"

But that's totally fine they are lovely chaps, the police, the good guys, how can one not feel represented.

The latest one now is a Human Rights Watch report - Spain: Police Used Excessive Force in Catalonia Hold Independent Investigation into Violence During Referendum https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia. I'm a bit confused because these days I was reading the police answer was proportionate to people doing unlawful acts and using elders as human shields and provoking and attacking police and everyhing was very exaggerated anyway with doctors throwing fake injured numbers left and right.



Any bets on how Spanish justice (which is of course totally independent from the political power) will do for adequate domestic remedies?

Moron will be morons. The problem is, these morons are a bunch of fuckheads making a fool of themselves, on the contrary the worst of all is that a bunch of fuckheads backed by a minority of people with no absolute grasp of reality have taken Catalonia and all of their citizens hostage because they are also cowards.

I wonder how many times will you and your govermenet use the 1-O as an excuse for independence, so far it look as it's the only excuse left for them because all countries around the world have already condemned the violence but at the same time they said to Puigdemont that it does not work as an excuse.

Why don't you mention how your goverment is increasing the number of "people affected by police violence" by including those that suffered with anxiety attacks after watching the demonstrations on TV.

Don't forget to mention how the vice-president is claiming that there are genetic differences between cataland and spaniards. (hello nazism my old friend)

I love how nuch you people always try to imply those who sre against the catalan independence are some sort of violent nazi having a hard-on for the spanish flag and goverment/PP. I love how much the rest of the world has stopped buying that bullshit.


Any bets on how Spanish justice (which is of course totally independent from the political power) will do for adequate domestic remedies?

Oh the sarcasm, because there has not been trials against members of the goverment and royalty! It's as if people hadn't been sent to prison.

Nobody was sent to prison because of the Palau case. Nobody from the Pujol family has been sent to prison because of their shady businesses. Nobody has been sent to prison because of the 3% case.

But yeah, muh nonexistent country is better than you because I live on a parallel universe.

Come the fuck on, son.

 

[Business]

Any bets on how Spanish justice (which is of course totally independent from the political power) will do for adequate domestic remedies?

Oh the sarcasm, because there has not been trials against members of the goverment and royalty! It's as if people hadn't been sent to prison.

Nobody was sent to prison because of the Palau case. Nobody from the Pujol family has been sent to prison because of their shady businesses. Nobody has been sent to prison because of the 3% case.

But yeah, muh nonexistent country is better than you because I live on a parallel universe.

Come the fuck on, son.

It's funny you bring the trials on the royal family as examples of justice in Spain.
As for the Pujol family the eldest son went to prison.

Get your facts straight because you are just making a fool out of yourself.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No, others can call them for thinking they are wrong. Because the other side, it's painfuly obvious, thinks you are the one wrong. The way we solve these conflicts in the civilized world is called democracy.

As for the referendum, with the Spanish state having said it will never agree on one (that is the majority of Spanish parties representing the majority of Spanish votes, PP PSOE and C's) and if the Catalans will never have the required majority to push for a constitutional change, what would be your proposal?

There are limits to democracy. It is not this blanket excuse to just push your narrative whenever you want. No country in the world is going to allow a vote to have a region split away like this. That does not mean they are not civilized or not democratic.

I get Catalonia wants a referendum. And that with the current status they are not getting one. There is no perfect solution for this. But as a start, I'd say your local government at least needs to come forward with an actual plan about what they want and how to achieve this. Just like with Brexit, we see a lot of yelling about how things will magically be better afterwards, but nobody knows how or why. That is already a major problem.

After that you need to convince other parties to make those changes necessary or get international pressure to do so. Something Catalonia has not.

What I would see as a good solution would be some more autonomy for the region. But this would mean agreement with other regions about that, because it is then only fair they get the same thing. Otherwise you get a situation where the richer region refuses to take care of the poorer ones, which is not healthy for a country.

 

[deathkiller]

what would be your proposal?

Get 2 thirds of the votes on pro-independence parties in a regional elections and you will be unstoppable. Recently there was the talk about Slovenia independence, they had 90% of parliamentary support. Tell me how many countries have become independent with 50% support in their regional parliaments?

 

[Onyar]

Get 2 thirds of the votes on pro-independence parties in a regional elections and you will be unstoppable. Recently there was the talk about Slovenia independence, they had 90% of parliamentary support. Tell me how many countries have become independent with 50% support in their regional parliaments?

Montenegro was 55% of the voters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_independence_referendum,_2006

 

[Business]

There are limits to democracy. It is not this blanket excuse to just push your narrative whenever you want. No country in the world is going to allow a vote to have a region split away like this. That does not mean they are not civilized or not democratic.

I get Catalonia wants a referendum. And that with the current status they are not getting one. There is no perfect solution for this. But as a start, I'd say your local government at least needs to come forward with an actual plan about what they want and how to achieve this. Just like with Brexit, we see a lot of yelling about how things will magically be better afterwards, but nobody knows how or why. That is already a major problem.

After that you need to convince other parties to make those changes necessary or get international pressure to do so. Something Catalonia has not.

What I would see as a good solution would be some more autonomy for the region. But this would mean agreement with other regions about that, because it is then only fair they get the same thing. Otherwise you get a situation where the richer region refuses to take care of the poorer ones, which is not healthy for a country.

What are the exact limits of democracy in this case then?

About your proposal, I get your main problem is about having the Catalan goverment come with a "clear plan", what does this include exaclty?

Any idea on how to put "international pressure", to whom exactly.

As for more or less autonomy we are again at the root of the question that is if you believe Catalonia is a nation with the right to self determination or not. In my view, Spain should be a nation of nations, these being Castilla, Catalunya (culturally includes Pais Valencia and Balearic Islands to some extent at least), Euskadi (culturally includes Navarra to some extent at least) and Galicia. Extremadura, for example, is administratively a Comunidad Autonoma just like Catalunya but it's not a nation. You can't deal with them on self determination grounds the same way, but that's exactly the narrative that's been pushed since in the last few decades and the creation of the CCAA system. If you accept Catalonia is a nation, and that it has the right to decide it's future, what the rest of Spain has to say about it is not relevant, just like London or Cornwall don't vote on a Scottish independence referendum or Alberta on a Quebec independence referendum.

Get 2 thirds of the votes on pro-independence parties in a regional elections and you will be unstoppable. Recently there was the talk about Slovenia independence, they had 90% of parliamentary support. Tell me how many countries have become independent with 50% support in their regional parliaments?

You see we can discuss if 2/3 is reasonable or not but it would be a good starting point for dialogue. I can only wish the Spanish state would come with such proposal.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What are the exact limits of democracy in this case then?

I do not think you can put out a referendum like this and them claim it is democratic. I would also argue that splitting up countries in smaller and smaller regions is not helping democracy, since you are simply shutting down other voices.

About your proposal, I get your main problem is about having the Catalan goverment come with a "clear plan", what does this include exaclty?

This would include things about economic impact, currency used, whether they can join certain organisations again, how they see a border working, what happens to regions that do not vote to split, what happens to Spanish people in Catalonia and more. Judging from the speech earlier this week, there is zero idea in Catalonia what would even happen after a possible independence, and that is just irresponsible and dangerous. Such a large chance should be a solution to the problems they see, and they should be able to then explain why that solution works. At the moment, I haven't seen anything like that.

Any idea on how to put "international pressure", to whom exactly.

That should probably be included in the plan mentioned above. If you answer is "how are we going to do this?" then I'd say maybe hold of on independence until you figure that out.

As for more or less autonomy we are again at the root of the question that is if you believe Catalonia is a nation with the right to self determination or not. In my view, Spain should be a nation of nations, these being Castilla, Catalunya (culturally includes Pais Valencia and Balearic Islands to some extent at least), Euskadi (culturally includes Navarra to some extent at least) and Galicia. Extremadura, for example, is administratively a Comunidad Autonoma just like Catalunya but it's not a nation. You can't deal with them on self determination grounds the same way, but that's exactly the narrative that's been pushed since in the last few decades and the creation of the CCAA system. If you accept Catalonia is a nation, and that it has the right to decide it's future, what the rest of Spain has to say about it is not relevant, just like London or Cornwall don't vote on a Scottish independence referendum or Alberta on a Quebec independence referendum.

If you see it that way and want to change how Spain is set up, then wouldn't it be better to convince those other regions of the same, so you can change the structure of Spain and how it is governed?

 

[deathkiller]

Montenegro was 55% of the voters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_independence_referendum,_2006

The independence bill that led to the referendum was unanimously passed by the Montenegrin Parliament on 2 March 2006 according to that link.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

What are the exact limits of democracy in this case then?

About your proposal, I get your main problem is about having the Catalan goverment come with a "clear plan", what does this include exaclty?

Any idea on how to put "international pressure", to whom exactly.

As for more or less autonomy we are again at the root of the question that is if you believe Catalonia is a nation with the right to self determination or not. In my view, Spain should be a nation of nations, these being Castilla, Catalunya (culturally includes Pais Valencia and Balearic Islands to some extent at least), Euskadi (culturally includes Navarra to some extent at least) and Galicia. Extremadura, for example, is administratively a Comunidad Autonoma just like Catalunya but it's not a nation. You can't deal with them on self determination grounds the same way, but that's exactly the narrative that's been pushed since in the last few decades and the creation of the CCAA system. If you accept Catalonia is a nation, and that it has the right to decide it's future, what the rest of Spain has to say about it is not relevant, just like London or Cornwall don't vote on a Scottish independence referendum or Alberta on a Quebec independence referendum.



You see we can discuss if 2/3 is reasonable or not but it would be a good starting point for dialogue. I can only wish the Spanish state would come with such proposal.

There is democracy and then there is "We don't like how the 80% voted so we are going to our own thing anyway". Just need to organise a 'vote' with the 20% and boom 'democracy'.

Can't say if this applies to Spain situation or not. Legit oppression is one thing, then there is just not wanting to do what majority of people voted for.

It's from one of the four police unions that it has the police. Second smaller.
Some union groups of this country are very radical on both sides. (SAT, CNT, etc)

Probably some troll of that police union is running that account. Reading more tweets, looks like the troll thinks it's a personal account. Zero information about the union and only messages about Catalonia.

Police official twitter is totally different.

Ok, it sounds like Spain ruling elements could denounce behaviour like this if they wanted to. They ARE in police uniforms right? If so, they are presenting themselves as official representatives of the government.

 

[tolkir]

I have no resolution to offer for the independence issue, but with messages like what police is tweeting out I can't blame Catalonians for not feeling like part of Spain. Seems like hatred towards them is real?

It's from one of the four police unions that it has the police. Second smaller.
Some union groups of this country are very radical on both sides. (SAT, CNT, etc)

Probably some troll of that police union is running that account. Reading more tweets, looks like the troll thinks it's a personal account. Zero information about the union and only messages about Catalonia.

Police official twitter is totally different.

 

[Night Terror]

It's from one of the four police unions that it has the police. Second smaller.
Some union groups of this country are very radical on both sides. (SAT, CNT, etc)

Probably some troll of that police union is running that account. Reading more tweets, looks like the troll thinks it's a personal account. Zero information about the union and only messages about Catalonia.

Police official twitter is totally different.

But the fact is that there is gatred everywhere in Spain. From everyone towards everyone. Maybe Catalan people have a stronger sense of feeling apart, if you wish, but our country is truly a disgrace as a whole.

To put it like this, Spain is like the BBQ Homer Simpson tries to build. Ideally it would be like it's pictured in the box, yet reality is it's a clusterfuck.

 

[Onyar]

The independence bill that led to the referendum was unanimously passed by the Montenegrin Parliament on 2 March 2006 according to that link.

Ah true, I read you mean the voting support.
But the catalan parliament support for the referendum is more than 50% of the independence support that represents JuntsXsi and CUP. That's why we need a legal referendum, to know exactly how many people support the independence.

 

[Business]

I do not think you can put out a referendum like this and them claim it is democratic. I would also argue that splitting up countries in smaller and smaller regions is not helping democracy, since you are simply shutting down other voices.

I think we keep confusing democracy with if you consider the referendum from 1O democratic. Do you have any concerns about 80% on people wanting to hold a democratic vote?

As for smaller countries Catalonia would be demographically larger than EU countries like Finland, Denmark or Ireland, I don't see the big problem here.

This would include things about economic impact, currency used, whether they can join certain organisations again, how they see a border working, what happens to regions that do not vote to split, what happens to Spanish people in Catalonia and more. Judging from the speech earlier this week, there is zero idea in Catalonia what would even happen after a possible independence, and that is just irresponsible and dangerous. Such a large chance should be a solution to the problems they see, and they should be able to then explain why that solution works. At the moment, I haven't seen anything like that.

The fact that you ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_juridical_transition_and_foundation_of_the_Republic

Currency would be the Euro, current law and contracts would be respected, the will is to be part of the EU, if this will be possible is basically a matter if Spain decides to veto. Regions that vote no will obviously be part of Catalonia (was this even a question in Quebec or Scotland?), how do you want to split that, per village, per city, per shire equivalent? The only exception to that is Vall d'Aran which since 2015 has by law the right to decide its future. Spanish citizens in Catalonia is everyone right now, if you mean 'no' voters they will have indeed lost the referendum, how is this even a question again?

That should probably be included in the plan mentioned above. If you answer is "how are we going to do this?" then I'd say maybe hold of on independence until you figure that out.

Again, this would be done behind the scenes so you (or me) don't have any idea and can only speculate. What's for sure is it will be hard to influence more than Spain in the international space, because they have the force of the state.

If you see it that way and want to change how Spain is set up, then wouldn't it be better to convince those other regions of the same, so you can change the structure of Spain and how it is governed?

I have to quote myself

As for the referendum, with the Spanish state having said it will never agree on one (that is the majority of Spanish parties representing the majority of Spanish votes, PP PSOE and C's) and if the Catalans will never have the required majority to push for a constitutional change, what would be your proposal?

 

[KingSnake]

Imposing the will of 40% of the population over the other 60% in such a serious decision like this is not democracy no matter how you put it.

This is in fact a constitutional matter in principle. Constitutional changes are done usually with 2/3 of the parliament approval and then having a referendum on the topic.

You can turn the numbers upside down as you want, but there is no legitimacy for a declaration of independence.

It's a pointless discussion anyhow, as all this besides being actually not "the will of the people" it's also done outside the law and with 0 international support. Good luck with that.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think we keep confusing democracy with if you consider the referendum from 1O democratic. Do you have any concerns about 80% on people wanting to hold a democratic vote?

As for smaller countries Catalonia would be demographically larger than EU countries like Finland, Denmark or Ireland, I don't see the big problem here.

No, I am just tired of people using the term "democratic" to somehow pretend that whatever people feel at that exact moment should be followed no matter what. A few years back there was no majority for this independence, so a one off referendum about something that will impact everyone forever is not that good of an idea.

The fact that you ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_juridical_transition_and_foundation_of_the_Republic

Currency would be the Euro, current law and contracts would be respected, the will is to be part of the EU, if this will be possible is basically a matter if Spain decides to veto. Regions that vote no will obviously be part of Catalonia (was this even a question in Quebec or Scotland?), how do you want to split that, per village, per city, per shire equivalent? The only exception to that is Vall d'Aran which since 2015 has by law the right to decide its future. Spanish citizens in Catalonia is everyone right now, if you mean 'no' voters they will have indeed lost the referendum, how is this even a question again?

An Euro they have no influence over. Can be done, but what are the fiscal impacts for people in the new country? The laws and contracts are respected. But from which side? Is Spain going to continue to fund things in a transition period, who is going to pay the pensions and government employees? You are not getting into the EU, but that has been discussed to death already and time and time again ignored. You can't pretend things will stay the same and lie to people about that, when obviously that will not be the case.

And your answer here is pretty funny. "Regions that vote no will obviously be part of Catalonia." So much for "democracy" then. And that is what makes this stuff so difficult. You say Spain is forcing you to stay part of the country, but have no problem doing that for other people also. I find that a bit strange. There is no perfect solution to that, but you must admit it is a bit hypocritical.

Again, this would be done behind the scenes so you (or me) don't have any idea and can only speculate. What's for sure is it will be hard to influence more than Spain in the international space, because they have the force of the state.

How can your voters make an informed decision when nobody has an idea about it? If I were Catalonian and voting, I'd want to make damn sure the EU and international organizations would recognize my independence afterwards. That is kind of a big deal.

I have to quote myself

That is why I said you need to convince the other regions. If you can't, maybe your plan isn't that good. Note this is not about the referendum, but about a solution to keep Spain intact but give the different regions more power, something I have seen other posters suggest earlier.

 

[Business]

No, I am just tired of people using the term "democratic" to somehow pretend that whatever people feel at that exact moment should be followed no matter what. A few years back there was no majority for this independence, so a one off referendum about something that will impact everyone forever is not that good of an idea.

If you are tired or not of it is not relevant, it's how it works. That's how referendums are done, that's how elections are held, you choose things at a certain moment in time, how else? Are you seriously suggesting a rule by which independence not only has to win now but also have won for a few years before?

An Euro they have no influence over. Can be done, but what are the fiscal impacts for people in the new country? The laws and contracts are respected. But from which side? Is Spain going to continue to fund things in a transition period, who is going to pay the pensions and government employees? You are not getting into the EU, but that has been discussed to death already and time and time again ignored. You can't pretend things will stay the same and lie to people about that, when obviously that will not be the case.

Yeah but an Euro we can use and that must have been your question. I wouldn't say Spain has much of a say on the Euro these days do you. The fact is we could use it.

Laws and contracts are to be respected by the Catalan side, hopefully the Spanish as well.

Why would Spain need to contribute to fund things as long as Catalonia can collect its own taxes (which granted it would in case it was independent)?.

And your answer here is pretty funny. "Regions that vote no will obviously be part of Catalonia." So much for "democracy" then. And that is what makes this stuff so difficult. You say Spain is forcing you to stay part of the country, but have no problem doing that for other people also. I find that a bit strange. There is no perfect solution to that, but you must admit it is a bit hypocritical.

I don't see how that's funny or hypocrital. Let's get this straight you are of the opinion if yes would have won in Scotland yet say locally in Aberdeen 'no' would have won, Aberdeen remains in the UK? Is that it? Shall we extrapolate inside neighbourghhoods as well? We can keep digging in the absurd here but it's only that, absurd. Shall we do that for elections too, some states Hillary is president and some is Trump? The root issue is again if you consider Catalonia a nation or not, if you don't and consequently it has no right to decide as a unit, it's fair enough, but the fact is people in Catalonia consider themselves one, so you'll have a never ending problem. If you do consider it a nation, then I have to tell you "so much for democracy".

How can your voters make an informed decision when nobody has an idea about it? If I were Catalonian and voting, I'd want to make damn sure the EU and international organizations would recognize my independence afterwards. That is kind of a big deal.

That's not how it works, who decides which voters are informed enough in democracy? Nobody and thank heavens. Shall we make a compulsory exam so one is allowed to vote? Who decides who can vote? Rubbish.

That is why I said you need to convince the other regions. If you can't, maybe your plan isn't that good. Note this is not about the referendum, but about a solution to keep Spain intact but give the different regions more power, something I have seen other posters suggest earlier.

I don't know how closely and for how long you have been following this process but it's been tried for decades I would argue, with the trigger to all this being the Catalan Statue of Autonomy of 2006, meant precisely for the purpose of gaining more autonomy, 11 years ago. The statute was negotiated with the state, agreed, approved by the Catalan people in referendum, but... finally challanged by Spains Constitutional Court in 2010. A heavyly politicised court that reeks of PP and PSOE I would add, and I don't think anyone can argue that.

We are here precisely because this very path has been unsuccessful.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If you are tired or not of it is not relevant, it's how it works. That's how referendums are done, that's how elections are held, you choose things at a certain moment in time, how else? Are you seriously suggesting a rule by which independence not only has to win now but also have won for a few years before?

Splitting up a country is a major change. I indeed do not think this should be done on a single vote, but over the opinion of the people there measured over time. You go a shitty government now, there has been a bad economy for a while and suddenly more people want to leave. So yes, something like that is better decided through multiple votes. Otherwise you are just capturing the sentiment of one moment, which is not a good indication. This is not a law that can be overturned or a government that will be changed again in a few years, it is something that will happen once and that is it. So just deciding that in a single referendum like this is foolish.

Yeah but an Euro we can use and that must have been your question. I wouldn't say Spain has much of a say on the Euro these days do you. The fact is we could use it.

Laws and contracts are to be respected by the Catalan side, hopefully the Spanish as well.

Why would Spain need to contribute to fund things as long as Catalonia can collect its own taxes (which granted it would in case it was independent)?.

Why should the Spanish respect laws and contracts that have just been disbanded by one side? And things like pensions are paid from taxes collected over the years, which I presume are in the hands of Spain at the moment. So Catalonia is going to take that over? With what funds exactly, and also consider borrowing money for them will come with higher interest rates. You are dismissing the gigantic economic impact of these events and fooling yourself into thinking everyone will play along with your wishes, which they have zero reason or obligation to do so.

I don't see how that's funny or hypocrital. Let's get this straight you are of the opinion if yes would have won in Scotland yet say locally in Aberdeen 'no' would have won, Aberdeen remains in the UK? Is that it? Shall we extrapolate inside neighbourghhoods as well? We can keep digging in the absurd here but it's only that, absurd. Shall we do that for elections too, some states Hillary is president and some is Trump? The root issue is again if you consider Catalonia a nation or not, if you don't and consequently it has no right to decide as a unit, it's fair enough, but the fact is people in Catalonia consider themselves one, so you'll have a never ending problem. If you do consider it a nation, then I have to tell you "so much for democracy".

But that is the point. "Shall we extrapolate inside neighborhoods as well?" Where do you draw this line when deciding things like this. What if a certain region does not think they are Catalonian? You still want to force them to become part of that instead of Spain.

That's not how it works, who decides which voters are informed enough in democracy? Nobody and thank heavens. Shall we make a compulsory exam so one is allowed to vote? Who decides who can vote? Rubbish.

You are saying that discussions are being done behind the scenes. But these are pretty major things that can impact of one things independence is a good idea or not. So leaving out that information would be unfair.

I don't know how closely and for how long you have been following this process but it's been tried for decades I would argue, with the trigger to all this being the Catalan Statue of Autonomy of 2006, meant precisely for the purpose of gaining more autonomy, 11 years ago. The statute was negotiated with the state, agreed, approved by the Catalan people in referendum, but... finally challanged by Spains Constitutional Court in 2010. A heavy politicised court that reeks of PP and PSOE I would add, and I don't think anyone can argue that.

We are here precisely because this very path has been unsuccessful.

Isn't it so that other regions objected to those statutes also? Then for those things you need to work together to find a solution. And well, maybe part of that is to give something up yourself also because those other regions might not always agree. If every region in a country wants to split because they want special favors - and certainly when these are the richer ones - every country would be doomed.