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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
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Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
veryslowhand
Banned
I think I dislike every politician involved in this shit, we really deserve better than this.
So they're practically declaring independence
from the parliament
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
So apparently neither the official declaration nor the second one signed by the CUP have been registered in the parliament.
So they have no legal validity.
At all.
Oh my God. This is pure surrealism.
So they have no legal validity.
At all.
Oh my God. This is pure surrealism.
Wait wait wait
Are we seriously looking at a possible scenario where the separatists aren't taking their own separation seriously - and stand to lose everything from it - while the Spanish government insist on taking it seriously anyway - and also stand to lose everything from it?
...is this a suicide pact?
Better start to come to terms with it now because this conflict is going to last for a real while. I totally agree in any case, but given our political landscape, the PP is going to remain in power unless they do something catastrophic. The same goes for Junts pel Sí unless they ban Pdecat and Esquerra Republicana from catalan elections.
CarlisleDavid1979
Member
Yep.
I honestly expect PP tomorrow to put the 155 in move (especially after hearing both Levi and Santamaria today).
PP doesn't give a fuck about the Catalonia confict, this is just another political movement for them in Spain. Applying the 155 caters to their voters.
Of course, this will also create even more independentists, something that some indepe politians are probably expecting.
DarthMasta
Member
Dalí lives!
I just hope the problem goes away without anymore bad blood or bloodshed...
forknknife
Banned
Yeah, the vice president just announced it. I hope they don't go with the 155, it would be severely counter productive for everyone and just dig us deeper into this mess.
From a purely strategic point of view, seen from the Spanish government side, I think the best thing Rajoy could do now is show the world he wants to resume the dialogue with the Catalonian government and regain some of the international image lost with the 1-O.
He really would not need to do much, even, since the market is doing the work for him. If he just slows things down to a crawl he'll put a lot of pressure onto the independists which would start to fight about what to do next which would probably end up with new elections but with a divided junts X sí and CUP which I guess would get worse results than in the previous ones.
If that happens the independist movement would be really hurt and it'd take a while for it to regain the same spirit it had these years.
But Rajoy will just fuck everything up, of course.
Yep, for once, Rajoy could do what he excels at: doing nothing.
If he does nothing, CUP an JxSi will kill themselves and we will end up with new elections.
But if he goes with the 155, he's going to unite independentists again.
Slovenia's way was the best option.
Now it's a win-win. or we just wait for Spain to fuck it all and we will have independence in a matter of days because they will apply the 155 or Spain really changes and we can understand a Catalonia inside Spain.
Edit: Assamblea's (Pro-independentist organization) website just closed by the Police. 155 is coming.
Now it's a win-win. or we just wait for Spain to fuck it all and we will have independence in a matter of days because they will apply the 155 or Spain really changes and we can understand a Catalonia inside Spain.
Edit: Assamblea's (Pro-independentist organization) website just closed by the Police. 155 is coming.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The absurd thing is that Spanish government is more than entitled to invoke the 155 given that the Catalonian parliament has been creating and enacting its own parallel legal framework. It hasn't done so because it's a pretty radical step and Rajoy wanted a proper UDI before going fully nuclear. It would be an unpopular move after all.
If Rajoy were intelligent, he'd just wait it out like he always does and let the separatist torn themselves apart from a safe distance. If he felt a bit cunty he could ask Puigdemont to clarify the situation with simple words in order to avoid the 155 and then watch him squirm while separatist stab each other.
But Rajoy is not an intelligent man, so all bets are off.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Man... this is gonna be a heck of a vacation.
intheinbetween
Member
Well my gut says Rajoy will stay the same as post 1-O: wait and see, and to be fair, imo it has worked, actually I believe its what he does best lol.
Im not a PP supporter, actually I hate Hernando, Granados, and company but I dont blame Rajoy for all of this Catalonian referendum mess as this comes from decades ago back at the 90s, so I understand Rajoy is the one had to deal with this was about to explode.
About whats next, well see.. maybe this suspended UID is just another farce and the pro-independence party are still playing their game, or maybe members of JxS realized this has gone too far and now they want to pull the parking break, but as I already said before, the damage is already done Im afraid this can only end up being worse.
deathkiller
Member
Since the Catalan Parlament haven't actually done anything (except talk), it would be a grave mistake for Rajoy to invalidate it. Rajoy needs to do something about the Catalan Police though, since they would be key in any attempt of an actual UDI.
I'm not so sure that Rajoy can follow his "do nothing" policy. This time is different since a lot of your side sees the catalan movement as a coup d'etat, not moving this time will mean he is somehow is favor of the dialogue.
Probably the best option for the centralists will be to announce elections, this will give extra time to the standby process, probably it will finish the patience of the CUP, and aprove the support of an 155. We will see if the hate speech of the spanish nationalists have eat the brains of the most of Spain population or not.
Probably the best option for the centralists will be to announce elections, this will give extra time to the standby process, probably it will finish the patience of the CUP, and aprove the support of an 155. We will see if the hate speech of the spanish nationalists have eat the brains of the most of Spain population or not.
Rajoy should do nothing this time. There is actually nothing official from the Catalan Parliament that needs to be considered. The big UDI turned out to be a storm in a teacup like it was predictable since the beginning (that the whole referendum thing is just a farce for the politicians to act like they're doing things). Let them fight among themselves while Catalonia loses more and more from their GDP.
marcbret87
Member
This is a complete joke. In the end of the day Puigdemont has come to the same point Tsipras came. He had to choose whether to take the final step or back down and he chose... to back down. The cost was simply too high. Now what? While it's commendable to take a step back in this situation (even if the other option was suicide), what is there to talk about? Puigdemont declared independence but then suspended it. I honestly think this is just a way to blame the central government in case they decide to suspend the autonomy, paving the way for a real declaration for which they hope to gain some support saying: "You see? We tried everything"
marcbret87
Member
Yeah, I also think so. Time is on his favour. I am just worried that the hard right of this party will push for applying the 155, hence prompting more victimism from the Catalan side.
Thats why the gov shouldnt fall for it an applying the 155 now.
But its Rajoy so of course he will bite.
marcbret87
Member
Yeah, he shouldn't, let them rip each other in the Catalan parliament. Though i think everybody has seen that Puigdemont only has put a declaration on hold so... IMO, Rajoy would be justified in applying 155, even if politically it would not be the best choice.
intheinbetween
Member
Im leaning towards if it depended on Rajoys own decisions he wouldnt pull the trigger by applying the 155 article, I have the feeling this guy isnt as evil as some believe (if anything he is an incompetent PM), however there are other influences in the party such as Hernando or Granados that will push him to do so.
I didn't want to say that not moving is a bad option to centralists, I said that it's almost impossible to hold his goverment doing nothing since catalonia pushed the situation to the limit and your support parties will be not happy.
I'm not agree that Catalonia did nothing yesterday, they actually started the UDI but put the pause button, it's kind of a big deal and if you are a constitucionalist it's one of the biggest threads you could see. Do nothing only will rise the votes of Ciudadanos and PP will not allow that.
I'm not agree that Catalonia did nothing yesterday, they actually started the UDI but put the pause button, it's kind of a big deal and if you are a constitucionalist it's one of the biggest threads you could see. Do nothing only will rise the votes of Ciudadanos and PP will not allow that.
It was reported that there is nothing official registered with the Catalan Parliament yesterday. No document supporting the statements. If that's the case, what happened yesterday in Parliament worth nothing more than a declaration of independence done in front of the bathroom mirror.
There's a declaration of independence signed by the Parliament, maybe it isn't official by the Spanish laws, but it is by the Catalan Parliament that dictates what the catalan people want.
It was signed without a vote, they themselves said it was a symbolic gesture more than a political one.
I mean, talking sorely about PP, it's more favorable to them to apply the 155 now,yeah.
They pander to a lot of their votes, and as you said it prevents their voters to go to Cs (who can't shut up about 155, they're really into oportunistic mode).
They also said they won't apply the 155 without PSOE approval, but IMO this is not about concensus as they said, they want to push PSOE to enable the 155 with them and make them lose part of their leftists votes.
But IMO for the best of the country it's better to wait, legally PP is justified to apply the 155 now but there's time to do that, right now we have a more fragile independentism, with CUP angry, they said they won't go to the Parliament till they see Puigdemont push for the UDI.
There's also rumors about some members of JxSI pushing for a better deal with Spain instead of independence. This may end in a new elections (CUP already said so yesterday) and PP would come with their hands clean.
But if PP does the 155, they will unite the independentists once again and will make it more possible for them to get reelected in new elections (unless they ban those parties, but brace yourselfes if they do).
That's how I see it atleast, for the best for the country is better to wait, but it's true that for PP it's probably best to go ham. They have nothing to lose on Catalonia because they never had anything anyways...
It has to be approved in the Catalan Parliament to have any kind of political meaning, even for only Catalonia. Right now it's just some papers with a sign.
Oh, so like a Christmas card? I doubt that works even by the rules of Catalan Parliament. Or by any law.
Darth Rajoy. Unfortunately there's no light side.
EU?
EU is watching from the side worrying that these wannabe Sith Lords might set on fire that part of the galaxy.
Acidote
Member
I think this is actually a sensible move.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This is not true at all, though. It's just the image the independentist camp is trying to project (with some success).
The Catalonian Parlament is trying to enact a law already repealed by the Constitutional Court, held an ilegal referendum, conspired with the regional police to defy court orders and continues to hold Spanish laws in contempt.
That's without taking into consideration the charges of sedition and misuse of public funds.
Even more importantly, Puigdemont and their allies have said over the last few hours that they are open to a dialogue, but ONLY to turn their Unilateral Declaration of Independence into a Declaration of Independence. So all that JxSI is proposing is that Spain accepts Catalonian independence in any case on the basis of a law that goes against Spanish jurisdiction and even violates the ilegal laws enacted by the Catalonian parlament to justify the referendum. And if Spain is not willing to negotiate the separation of Catalonia under such terms, they can go take a hike and Puigdemont will declare an UDI anyway because el poble.
That's not a negotiation. That's Puigdemont shitting the bed and then initiating a Mexican stand-off with Rajoy under the guise of a negotation, with the entire population of Catalonia and Spain in the middle of it.
There are ample reasons to invoke the 155. The real question is if Rajoy should. A legalistic interpretation of the current situation supports it. Rajoy, as a matter of fact, has the constitutional mandate to do it. But he could also offer some tactical largesse out of convenience. Alas, there's inmese pressure against that. The conservative wing of the PP wants the 155, but even in the case of Rajoy deciding to wait it out as he tends to do, there's a chance that some joke party like Vox (or even Ciudadanos, if they go really mad) could mount a legal challenge against the Spanish government for not protecting the unity of Spain as per Article 2 of the constitution.
So basically, there are no good options now.
It's a huge mess.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yeah, I still don't get what this "dialogue" is supposed to be about if your goal of getting independence is already set. Are they expecting a talk about how Spain will help them with that or something? Dialogue would mean staying with Spain, but maybe getting some more freedoms for your region from the central government. That is not what they seem to want however.
The referendum isn't ilegal, Spanish laws allow all the referendums, the question may be ilegal, but the act was 100% legal. The only thing that had to do the spanish goverment is saying the question was ilegal and so don't gave any legality to the voting.
But no, they used their police to hit voters that were doing NOTHING ilegal.
And that Juntxsi wants to only talk about a dui it's also false, it's the mantra that the spanish media says that it's false.
The great majority of the independentists want a legal referendum and that's what they want to dialogue.
It's really frightening see how spanish people don't understand the catalan situation.
ClosingADoor
Member
The referendum wasn't illegal, but the question was? But the question was asked at the referendum. How do you split those two up?
The act of vote is different than what you vote.
It's not exactly the same, but you can vote at any election for Cthulhu, but the greater evil is not a valid party accepted by the law, for now, and the vote will be declared null.
ClosingADoor
Member
This sounds like some mental gymnastics to be honest. If you start to do that kind of reasoning, you might also say the police just came to get the ballot boxes, so they didn't stop anyone from voting.
Randomizer123454444
Member
Doesn't matter if a generic "referendum" is legal or not. Having one for independence can be illegal. Using a gun can be legal or illegal depending on how it's used, for example.
Thus independence referendum was illegal.
deathkiller
Member
As a private citizen you can do that, you can't use public funds or entities for it though. Administrations are only allowed to call for votes over things that they can decide by themselves.
marcbret87
Member
I think it is a very sensible move. If he says he declared it then he can use the 155 without a problem, if he says he didn't... Well, then he loses even more face.
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