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[RSB]

Don't forget to mention how the vice-president is claiming that there are genetic differences between cataland and spaniards. (hello nazism my old friend)

Yep, some will try to sweep the xenophobic side of catalan nationalism under the rug, but it's very real, unfortunately.

Honestly, this whole mess is PP and PSOE fault for giving the catalan nationalists (or should I say supremacists) total control of the education system in Catalonia (and the catalan media too of course) It was politically beneficial for them to be on good terms with CiU so they looked the other way for decades.

Catalan nationalists are also trying to expand their influence to Valencia and the Balearic Islands. The whole "Països Catalans" thing (Catalan Countries) is an invention from catalan nationalists, but of course, they don't care if they have to twist (or downright invent) historical events to support their fiction. Disgusting.

 

[marcbret87]

Yep, some will try to sweep the xenophobic side of catalan nationalism under the rug, but it's very real, unfortunately.

Honestly, this whole mess is PP and PSOE fault for giving the catalan nationalists (or should I say supremacists) total control of the education system in Catalonia (and the catalan media too of course) It was politically beneficial for them to be on good terms with CiU so they looked the other way for decades.

Catalan nationalists are also trying to expand their influence to Valencia and the Balearic Islands. The whole "Països Catalans" thing (Catalan Countries) is an invention from catalan nationalists, but of course, they don't care if they have to twist (or downright invent) historical events to support their fiction. Disgusting.

Totally. The vice-president (and perhaps future president) of Catalonia, Junqueras, used to work in a place called "Institut de Nova Historia" which has a bit of a murky reputation,being generous.

Though, to be fair, the thing about Paisos Catalans is pretty much wishful thinking, there is barely any support for this in either Valencia or the Balearic Islands. The funny thing was when the headquarters of one of the banks was moved to Alicante and Junqueras argued that it's still the Paisos Catalans.

 

[Night Terror]

Yep, some will try to sweep the xenophobic side of catalan nationalism under the rug, but it's very real, unfortunately.

Honestly, this whole mess is PP and PSOE fault for giving the catalan nationalists (or should I say supremacists) total control of the education system in Catalonia (and the catalan media too of course) It was politically beneficial for them to be on good terms with CiU so they looked the other way for decades.

Catalan nationalists are also trying to expand their influence to Valencia and the Balearic Islands. The whole "Països Catalans" thing (Catalan Countries) is an invention from catalan nationalists, but of course, they don't care if they have to twist (or downright invent) historical events to support their fiction. Disgusting.

Please, stop.

No seriously, stop.

Kids and people here are not lobotomized. Mariano Rajoy and his goverment has done more for me wanting to vote "Yes" in such a question as Independence than 20 years of school and television. Which should mean something is terribly wrong here.

This comes from someone who's switched tv channels numerous times as little as 4 months ago because "Holy hell, again talking about Independance? Don't they ever get fucking tired christ". But God forbid me of the attempt at taking control over the work of many people, seeing what TVE has become in the last years.

The twisted reality some of you keep having is causing me the fear of me having to leave my very own land because of what is a blatant attack to that which is different, instead of accepting it and integrating it correctly.

Pero bueno, hay que españolizar a los niños catalanes supongo.

And no, I will not defend that whole genetic talk mess. Although I have no fucking idea what that was about, that's terrible.

But whatever, I guess it's better if all lands are uniform, and all people think the same, and everyone wears the same clothes after all.

Because everytime I hear some speeches all that comes to my mind is 1984.

 

[Business]

Splitting up a country is a major change. I indeed do not think this should be done on a single vote, but over the opinion of the people there measured over time. You go a shitty government now, there has been a bad economy for a while and suddenly more people want to leave. So yes, something like that is better decided through multiple votes. Otherwise you are just capturing the sentiment of one moment, which is not a good indication. This is not a law that can be overturned or a government that will be changed again in a few years, it is something that will happen once and that is it. So just deciding that in a single referendum like this is foolish.

Totally disagree on your multiple votes idea and I think it wouldn't gain much support anywhere in the world but oh well, the problem here is no votes so it's welcome. I prefer best of 5 than not playing at all.

Why should the Spanish respect laws and contracts that have just been disbanded by one side? And things like pensions are paid from taxes collected over the years, which I presume are in the hands of Spain at the moment. So Catalonia is going to take that over? With what funds exactly, and also consider borrowing money for them will come with higher interest rates. You are dismissing the gigantic economic impact of these events and fooling yourself into thinking everyone will play along with your wishes, which they have zero reason or obligation to do so.

Because they are the same Spanish laws and contracts that apply today in Spain. As for the pensions they are paid with the current workers' tax, they are not kept for 40 years in a box for when you retire. What can I tell you, somebody has done the math and it works, I'm afraid in your eyes they will be biased studies for gullible fools but can't help you there. The split with Spain would indeed require negotiation and agreement, there are assets and liabilities to share and I believe it would be in both parts best interest to reach a fair deal.

Realize also that we always operate under the assumtion (probably true) that Spain will do their outmost to screw up Catalonia. Nice.

But that is the point. "Shall we extrapolate inside neighborhoods as well?" Where do you draw this line when deciding things like this. What if a certain region does not think they are Catalonian? You still want to force them to become part of that instead of Spain.

Again, how hard was to draw this line in Scotland or Quebec, not very hard as far as I know, was it. Here it could be the same if artificial problems like yours were not put on the table. Luckily I haven't seen this nonsense pulled by neither the most hardcore PP or C's yet, but I could be wrong.

You are saying that discussions are being done behind the scenes. But these are pretty major things that can impact of one things independence is a good idea or not. So leaving out that information would be unfair.

No I didn't say that. I said neither you or me know whats going on behind the scenes in the international scene, by both parts.

Isn't it so that other regions objected to those statutes also? Then for those things you need to work together to find a solution. And well, maybe part of that is to give something up yourself also because those other regions might not always agree. If every region in a country wants to split because they want special favors - and certainly when these are the richer ones - every country would be doomed.

Favors... I would not consider Catalan in school a special favor, it's something Spain should cherish instead of Catalonia having to defend it as of in the last few years. We have the same stupid stereotype as the jews of being greedy but I promise it's not all about the money.

 

[Business]

Yep, some will try to sweep the xenophobic side of catalan nationalism under the rug, but it's very real, unfortunately.

Honestly, this whole mess is PP and PSOE fault for giving the catalan nationalists (or should I say supremacists) total control of the education system in Catalonia (and the catalan media too of course) It was politically beneficial for them to be on good terms with CiU so they looked the other way for decades.

Catalan nationalists are also trying to expand their influence to Valencia and the Balearic Islands. The whole "Països Catalans" thing (Catalan Countries) is an invention from catalan nationalists, but of course, they don't care if they have to twist (or downright invent) historical events to support their fiction. Disgusting.

Yeah that's bullshit. 70% of the people in Catalonia have at least one grandparent born outside of Catalonia. Catalans think they are better than... themselves?

Reaching new lows.

Edit:
Paisos Catalans understood as territories that share a common language and to an extent culture, I don't see how it's a new invention. People have been speaking the same language in these places for what 800 years? Paisos Catalans as a hypothetical political union is not something mainstream in Catalonia.

 

[Pancake Mix]

...Stop bringing up Quebec, there was talk after the 1995 referendum about a potential partition of Quebec, particularly the native areas and Montreal in the event of a yes vote elsewhere. It has been brought up before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Quebec

And Scotland?

theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

 

[RSB]

Totally. The vice-president (and perhaps future president) of Catalonia, Junqueras, used to work in a place called "Institut de Nova Historia" which has a bit of a murky reputation,being generous.

Though, to be fair, the thing about Paisos Catalans is pretty much wishful thinking, there is barely any support for this in either Valencia or the Balearic Islands. The funny thing was when the headquarters of one of the banks was moved to Alicante and Junqueras argued that it's still the Paisos Catalans.

Yeah, that's why I said "trying" Pretty much nobody is buying the catalan nationalist narrative, including their push to normalize the "Països Catalans" fiction. And with all that's been happening recently I imagine the resistance to it will only increase.

The twisted reality some of you keep having is causing me the fear of me having to leave my very own land because of what is a blatant attack to that which is different, instead of accepting it and integrating it correctly.

You should tell that to the catalan nationalists. They are the ones making non-nationalist catalans feel unwelcome in their own land.

Pero bueno, hay que españolizar a los niños catalanes supongo.

But whatever, I guess it's better if all lands are uniform, and all people think the same, and everyone wears the same clothes after all.

No need for that. Thankfully it's perfectly possible to maintain the catalan language and culture without giving total control of the education system and the media to the nationalists and their hateful and destructive ideology.

 

[Business]

...Stop bringing up Quebec, there was talk after the 1995 referendum about a potential partition of Quebec, particularly the native areas and Montreal in the event of a yes vote elsewhere. It has been brought up before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Quebec

And Scotland?

theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

Similar to the already mentioned Vall d’Aran case in Catalonia. The Catalan governement passed a law in 2015 so they can decide.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Totally disagree on your multiple votes idea and I think it wouldn't gain much support anywhere in the world but oh well, the problem here is no votes so it's welcome. I prefer best of 5 than not playing at all.

Of course this is separate from the discussion whether a referendum should be held at all. But if you do that, then I don't think you should take one point.

Because they are the same Spanish laws and contracts that apply today in Spain. As for the pensions they are paid with the current workers' tax, they are not kept for 40 years in a box for when you retire. What can I tell you, somebody has done the math and it works, I'm afraid in your eyes they will be biased studies for gullible fools but can't help you there. The split with Spain would indeed require negotiation and agreement, there are assets and liabilities to share and I believe it would be in both parts best interest to reach a fair deal.

Realize also that we always operate under the assumtion (probably true) that Spain will do their outmost to screw up Catalonia. Nice.

Again, what does Spain have to gain from cooperating with you after a possible split? Why should the rest of Spain bend over for Catalonia to get out of that with as little cost as possible. After you split, that is on you. This is the same bullshit that the Brexit people are doing. Expecting the party you just told to fuck off to work with you. It doesn't work that way.

Again, how hard was to draw this line in Scotland or Quebec, not very hard as far as I know, was it. Here it could be the same if artificial problems like yours were not put on the table. Luckily I haven't seen this nonsense pulled by neither the most hardcore PP or C's yet, but I could be wrong.

So now thinking about people who might not want to split is "nonsense".

No I didn't say that. I said neither you or me know whats going on behind the scenes in the international scene, by both parts.

And you don't see that as a major problem if you want people to make an informed decision on the matter?

Favors... I would not consider Catalan in school a special favor, it's something Spain should cherish instead of Catalonia having to defend it as of in the last few years. We have the same stupid stereotype as the jews of being greedy but I promise it's not all about the money.

Huh? You have Catalan in schools from what I can tell.

 

[deathkiller]

Huh? You have Catalan in schools from what I can tell.

I imagine that SpeedOfNuts is talking about that for some time a few parents have been going to tribunals in an attempt to force Schools to offer their children a mostly Castillan education when usually that only happens if enough parents in the same school ask for it. I imagine that in most cases the parents moved to Catalonia for work and forcing their children to learn a new language fast would be problematic.

 

[onesvenus]

Why instead of spitting bullshit we just take facts into account?

Why don't you mention how your goverment is increasing the number of "people affected by police violence" by including those that suffered with anxiety attacks after watching the demonstrations on TV.

Do you have any proof of what you claim? The only anxiety attacks that the government says it has counted are those that happened in-situ, not by watching the TV. There's only a non verified source that told one newspaper that. I hope you are not naive enough to believe that a non verified source cannot be faked.

Don't forget to mention how the vice-president is claiming that there are genetic differences between cataland and spaniards. (hello nazism my old friend)

The VP is quoting this article from 2008 and published in the Current Biology Journal under the name "Correlation between Genetic and Geographic Structure in Europe". None of the authors are catalan. And it doesn't say there are differences between spaniards and catalan, it says that genetically talking, there are more similarities between catalans and french than between catalans and spaniards. By the way, that's what the VP is claiming, not that there are genetic differences.

I love how nuch you people always try to imply those who sre against the catalan independence are some sort of violent nazi having a hard-on for the spanish flag and goverment/PP. I love how much the rest of the world has stopped buying that bullshit.

Not all of them obviously, but when the against demonstrations are followed by far-right groups (14 different far-right groups in the last one), you can't really blame them.
And yes, the rest of the world has stopped buying that bullshit as you can see in the Daily mail, the Inependent or the Sun

Oh the sarcasm, because there has not been trials against members of the goverment and royalty! It's as if people hadn't been sent to prison.

According to the World Economic Forum Judicial Independence report, Spain is number 58, failing short of 5 in a scale from 1 to 10. Spain is below some countries that are often considered under developed like Botswana, Ghana or Cyprus. There's a lot of things you, as Spaniard, can be proud of, judicial independence is not one of them.

Nobody was sent to prison because of the Palau case. Nobody from the Pujol family has been sent to prison because of their shady businesses. Nobody has been sent to prison because of the 3% case.

I won't defend nothing about the corruption and catalonia but that's not true. Nobody has been sent to prison on the Palau case because the judge hasn't claimed a sentence yet. She said that a sentence will be proclaimed before the year ends. Jordi Pujol Ferrussola, the only one sentenced, has been in prison from April (see this article from El Mundo). And the 3% case, as the Palau case is an ongoing investigation, although there has been some sentences to prison (see this article from El Pais)

Come the fuck on, son.

Exactly, come the fuck on, son

Imposing the will of 40% of the population over the other 60% in such a serious decision like this is not democracy no matter how you put it.

The problem with that is that that 40% number is made up. There hasn't been any legit way to count ourselves (that's what we've been asking for for the las 7 years in fact). The last time we were counted in an elections 48% voted YES parties and 39% voted NO parties, the rest voted parties who didn't position themselves in any way. So it's not fair to sum them up as not wanting independence.

That is why I said you need to convince the other regions. If you can't, maybe your plan isn't that good. Note this is not about the referendum, but about a solution to keep Spain intact but give the different regions more power, something I have seen other posters suggest earlier.

Are you aware that what the spanish parties PP, PSOE and Cs, with a majority in congress, want is exactly the opposite? What happens then? That's imposing their way against a region that wants it different.

Isn't it so that other regions objected to those statutes also? Then for those things you need to work together to find a solution. And well, maybe part of that is to give something up yourself also because those other regions might not always agree. If every region in a country wants to split because they want special favors - and certainly when these are the richer ones - every country would be doomed.

No, it isn't. In fact there are some of articles that were cut from the catalan statute that were approved later in other regions without being rejected by the constitutional court. Talk about being fair.

Again, what does Spain have to gain from cooperating with you after a possible split? Why should the rest of Spain bend over for Catalonia to get out of that with as little cost as possible. After you split, that is on you. This is the same bullshit that the Brexit people are doing. Expecting the party you just told to fuck off to work with you. It doesn't work that way.

Their debt payment for example. Catalonia brings up a 20% of the GDP of Spain, has the biggest airport outside of Madrid and has the biggest port on the Mediterranean. Do you really think they wouldn't want to negotiate anything? With a debt gross of more than 100% their GDP, not reaching an agreement with Catalonia, would bring them down easily.

Huh? You have Catalan in schools from what I can tell.

Yes we do, but thanks to disobeying a law from the central government that said that at least half of the classes should be done in Spanish. The fact of the matter is that Spanish is the language used by most of the people in the big cities. Reducing the catalan language in schools as the central government wants means it will disappear. And BTW, the Catalan students have better results at Spanish than the rest of Spain in the annual education report. It's not about the catalan needing to learn spanish, is just a political issue. The same that wants to end everything that is not spanish (see the television for example)

 

[KingSnake]

"I declare that here all the beers are for free. But I suspend this so we can negotiate" (rough translation)

 

[Pancake Mix]

Similar to the already mentioned Vall d'Aran case in Catalonia. The Catalan governement passed a law in 2015 so they can decide.

Except with Catalonia it would make just as much sense to exclude the capital, Barcelona, along with the neighbouring densely populated areas.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=249224576&postcount=469

Not saying partition is the solution but really, a heavily boycotted vote that was prevented in some areas, while at the same time there were irregularities...and even then there was only a supposed turnout in the low 40's....That's not majority support regardless of how you feel about a real referendum, so it's radical to talk about separation based on that. Partition is less radical than a minority forcing the majority out of Spain.

 

[onesvenus]

Not saying partition is the solution but really, a heavily boycotted vote that was prevented in some areas, while at the same time there were irregularities...and even then there was only a supposed turnout in the low 40's....That's not majority support regardless of how you feel about a real referendum, so it's radical to talk about separation based on that. Partition is less radical than a minority forcing the majority out of Spain.

There was a difference of 770k between the number of ballots and the number of people who voted. That accounts for the people that were registered in the digital census as voted but had the ballot boxes where they voted confiscated. That leaves a participation of 2.96M that accounts for a 55.8%. It shouldn't be that low, that's true, but there were more than 400 voting places that were closed before anyone could vote, basically in Barcelona.

And by the way, you can't take any conclusion with your images. You shouldn't count as against independence a party that didn't position themselves. They said as much themselves. That's the party that won or was 2nd on the majority of the most populated places.

The only fair way of counting who is for and who is against is doing a referendum. That's what we were trying to do on october first and what we've requested to do for a long time.

 

[tuxfool]

The only fair way of counting who is for and who is against is doing a referendum. That's what we were trying to do on october first and what we've requested to do for a long time.

But ran a shoddily conducted referendum, with no independent oversight and very few guarantees of provenance.

Those are Banana Republic referendums. It is a difficult problem for sure, given that only one side is interested in doing it, but one cannot then claim that any referendum conducted under those conditions is an inviolable democratic action.

 

[deathkiller]

There was a difference of 770k between the number of ballots and the number of people who voted.

I read that 770k is the census in closed voting places not votes. Do you have a link with the description of the data that the Generalitad provided?

 

[onesvenus]

But ran a shoddily conducted referendum, with no independent oversight and very few guarantees of provenance. .

Well, of course it was. But in the end it really was the best that could be done in those conditions.

And about the legitimacy of the results. For the no camp to win there would need to be 1.8M more votes and those should all be No votes. That would only happen with a participation of at least 80%. Never in any Catalan election the participation has been so high.
So yes, the results can be put in doubt but there is no denying that for the YES side not to win, two almost impossible circumstances should happen:

• Almost doubling the participation setting a new historical record
• Reversing the trend of the votes that were counted and having 100% of them being No

IMHO that's exactly why Spain will never agree to a formal binary question referendum, they know they'd lose.

I read that 770k is the census in closed voting places not votes. Do you have a link with the description of the data that the Generalitad provided?

The generalitat published this report and it says exactly what you say. I was wrong, sorry for the confusion.

 

[deathkiller]

I think that is clear for everyone just taking in consideration the last regional elections that in any fair referendum the yes for independence will get more votes than the no. Polls might say that more people are against but I don't know if they are accurate for every region and in any case the pro-independence side is far more mobilized and likely to vote than the no side.

Thinking about what PSOE has said in the last few days I think that they understand that proper referendum is the way to go but they really want to have a proper counterproposal to offer the Catalans before then. They are not ready to say that yet though.

For example if the question in a referendum would be something like:

"Should the free republican state of Catalonia be associated to/part of the Spanish federation?"

The results would be different (I really doubt that they can manage to convince PP/Ciudadanos of something like that though).

 

[tolkir]

IMHO that's exactly why Spain will never agree to a formal binary question referendum, they know they'd lose.

Probably, but even when unionist side had more chances to win, they didn't allow it.

Two reasons to add why they don't allow a referendum:

- Spain has 17 autonomous communities. They should allow a referendum in others communities every time a nationalist party wins its regional election.
- If independence loses, after a few years if nationalists aren't happy, they'll ask other referendum on the future.

 

[SamVimes]

Well, of course it was. But in the end it really was the best that could be done in those conditions.

And about the legitimacy of the results. For the no camp to win there would need to be 1.8M more votes and those should all be No votes. That would only happen with a participation of at least 80%. Never in any Catalan election the participation has been so high.
So yes, the results can be put in doubt but there is no denying that for the YES side not to win, two almost impossible circumstances should happen:

• Almost doubling the participation setting a new historical record
• Reversing the trend of the votes that were counted and having 100% of them being No

IMHO that's exactly why Spain will never agree to a formal binary question referendum, they know they'd lose.


The generalitat published this report and it says exactly what you say. I was wrong, sorry for the confusion.

You think they wouldn't get 80% turnout on an independence vote?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Are you aware that what the spanish parties PP, PSOE and Cs, with a majority in congress, want is exactly the opposite? What happens then? That's imposing their way against a region that wants it different.

That is why I said regions. If half your regions start demanding things from the central government, you have a much stronger position to force that instead of going at it alone.

No, it isn't. In fact there are some of articles that were cut from the catalan statute that were approved later in other regions without being rejected by the constitutional court. Talk about being fair.

Then Wikipedia is a bit misleading in that. It talks about how other regions also objected to some of those changes.

Their debt payment for example. Catalonia brings up a 20% of the GDP of Spain, has the biggest airport outside of Madrid and has the biggest port on the Mediterranean. Do you really think they wouldn't want to negotiate anything? With a debt gross of more than 100% their GDP, not reaching an agreement with Catalonia, would bring them down easily.

This is again talking like Catalonia has the upper hand here. It doesn't. Spain is not going to risk losing the rest of its regions because of an airport.

Yes we do, but thanks to disobeying a law from the central government that said that at least half of the classes should be done in Spanish. The fact of the matter is that Spanish is the language used by most of the people in the big cities. Reducing the catalan language in schools as the central government wants means it will disappear. And BTW, the Catalan students have better results at Spanish than the rest of Spain in the annual education report. It's not about the catalan needing to learn spanish, is just a political issue. The same that wants to end everything that is not spanish (see the television for example)

The UK and France do this also with having their main languages being the language schools are being done in. I don't see much wrong with that, as long as the also allow teaching Catalan really. But I get I am not invested in that, so I am missing the attachment to the language. This seems like one of those issues that should be easily fixed if both sides just give in a bit, but that is easier said then done.

 

[onesvenus]

You think they wouldn't get 80% turnout on an independence vote?

No, what I don't think is that all the people who didn't vote would vote No. What the Spanish call the silenced majority has never been seen.

That is why I said regions. If half your regions start demanding things from the central government, you have a much stronger position to force that instead of going at it alone.

Are you aware that Catalonia is the only region in Spain not ruled by PP and PSOE? Do you really think those regions would demand something their parent party does not defend in Madrid? Really?

This is again talking like Catalonia has the upper hand here. It doesn't. Spain is not going to risk losing the rest of its regions because of an airport.

There isn't any other region in Spain with so much people wanting independence. Even in the basque country, the ruling party has never proposed an independence referendum or something like that. So I don't see how Spain is risking anything.
An btw, do you really think that Catalonia can't really force anything? On october 3rd there was a halt during all day that was followed by a lot of people and Ibex35 went down a 3% of its value. Multiply that for 10 days for example and let's see if they wouldn't want to talk.

The UK and France do this also with having their main languages being the language schools are being done in. I don't see much wrong with that, as long as the also allow teaching Catalan really. But I get I am not invested in that, so I am missing the attachment to the language. This seems like one of those issues that should be easily fixed if both sides just give in a bit, but that is easier said then done.

If you are comparing the current situation with Gaelic or Corse it's clear you don't know what you are talking about. And yes, it could be fixed if both sides give in a bit but what Madrid is proposing is not that, they are proposing to dedicate 2 hours per week to Catalan and the rest in Spanish. That would mean the de facto extinction of the catalan language and that's really what they are seeking, to destroy every sign of identity that differentiates catalan people from spanish.

 

[deathkiller]

If you are comparing the current situation with Gaelic or Corse it's clear you don't know what you are talking about. And yes, it could be fixed if both sides give in a bit but what Madrid is proposing is not that, they are proposing to dedicate 2 hours per week to Catalan and the rest in Spanish. That would mean the de facto extinction of the catalan language and that's really what they are seeking, to destroy every sign of identity that differentiates catalan people from spanish.

Do you have any link about the 2 hour proposal? Previously you said that it was half.

 

[curi0usBystander]

There isn't any other region in Spain with so much people wanting independence. Even in the basque country, the ruling party has never proposed an independence referendum or something like that.

You're kidding right ?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Are you aware that Catalonia is the only region in Spain not ruled by PP and PSOE? Do you really think those regions would demand something their parent party does not defend in Madrid? Really?

Maybe, maybe not. That is politics. What I am saying is you have a stronger position if you can convince other regions they also want to run the country differently. If you can't achieve that, then maybe that is the democracy at work earlier posters pointed at so much. But it seems Catalonia only wants that as long as it favors them.

There isn't any other region in Spain with so much people wanting independence. Even in the basque country, the ruling party has never proposed an independence referendum or something like that. So I don't see how Spain is risking anything.
An btw, do you really think that Catalonia can't really force anything? On october 3rd there was a halt during all day that was followed by a lot of people and Ibex35 went down a 3% of its value. Multiply that for 10 days for example and let's see if they wouldn't want to talk.

And Spain would probably like to keep it that way, because if Catalonia gets everything it wants, what is to stop the others from demanding the same?

And with the airports and other things we were talking about after a possible split. So yes, Spain would have little interest in giving Catalonia much, since the stock market would have already tanked and it is better for them that those economic activities will be moved to Spanish cities then.

If you are comparing the current situation with Gaelic or Corse it's clear you don't know what you are talking about. And yes, it could be fixed if both sides give in a bit but what Madrid is proposing is not that, they are proposing to dedicate 2 hours per week to Catalan and the rest in Spanish. That would mean the de facto extinction of the catalan language and that's really what they are seeking, to destroy every sign of identity that differentiates catalan people from spanish.

What is the split now? Because I can totally understand that there should be enough Spanish also, considering you are part of Spain. From what I read online, the balance is now too much towards Catalan, leaving people without sufficient Spanish knowledge at a young age. I find that 2 hours a week proposal a bit strange, is that an actual law proposal being done at the moment?

 

[Psyrgery ES]

The generalitat published this report and it says exactly what you say. I was wrong, sorry for the confusion.

Can't answer your other post filled with nothing but bullshit now because Im on mobile now, but HO BOY, that number was an ESTIMATED number completely made up by the Generalitat, just like the 800 people wounded in the 1-O.

Yet you take it without question. El oh el, son.


Oh, btw today reporters without borders complained of the pressure the catalan media has put on them in order to impose their vision under intimidations

They then compared that pressure to Trump campaigns held by the far-right wing movement

 

[RSB]

Charlie Hebdo on catalan nationalism.

Spot on.

Puigdemont, Junqueras and co. must be pretty pissed, seeing how pretty much nobody is buying their bullshit. Oh well, at least they have Nigel Farage (and several far right parties) on their side.

 

[veryslowhand]

Charlie Hebdo on catalan nationalism.

Spot on.

Puigdemont, Junqueras and co. must be pretty pissed, seeing how pretty much nobody is buying their bullshit. Oh well, at least they have Nigel Farage (and several far right parties) on their side.

Only people that want to break rotor can be in for this shit.

 

[Funky Papa]

Everybody take a long, deep breath before replying to any post and try to be civil.

Thanks.

 

[Walshicus]

"Given that there are 200 languages in Europe, why not create 200 new countries?"

Yes, why not?

As posted earlier, the Ibarretxe proposal should absolutely be the norm in international relations. Nations working together in flexible structures tailored to the requirements of their citizens.

 

[deathkiller]

Yes, why not?

As posted earlier, the Ibarretxe proposal should absolutely be the norm in international relations. Nations working together in flexible structures tailored to the requirements of their citizens.

And those who speak multiple languages also get to form their own countries or are their cities shared? Independentists don't want towns where multiple cultures/languages coexists to be shared btw.

In general I oppose more because I see it as a waste of time/money when there are lots of things that would help those in need more. I have always voted for parties in favour self-determination rights and I plan to keep doing so.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, why not?

As posted earlier, the Ibarretxe proposal should absolutely be the norm in international relations. Nations working together in flexible structures tailored to the requirements of their citizens.

Because a ton of countries with not even a few million people is totally unworkable. You are creating all kinds of little states that can not function without the backing of larger states. So how is that independence working out, if you can't run your country without dancing to the tune of your bigger neighbor anyway.

By all means advocate for a unified EU and then regional laws or something. But we all know a federal Europe is not happening in our lives. And if it does, you'll probably see people wanting independence from that when they don't like some laws.

 

[Walshicus]

Because a ton of countries with not even a few million people is totally unworkable.

I don't believe this is true for an instant. Some of the most successful states are in that category, and that hasn't prevented substantial multi-national integration.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I don't believe this is true for an instant. Some of the most successful states are in that category, and that hasn't prevented substantial multi-national integration.

You are ignoring my comment afterwards. Of course there are smaller states, but it is then still the larger ones setting the rules. An EU with 200 states with everyone a veto is not going to work. So then you got basically the same situation again, where others are deciding for your now new country what to do. Cancelling out the independence you wanted.

 

[PdotMichael]

Splitting from a nation despite all economical and political fatal fallout would just showcase that the new nation is unable to form any supranational unions because of some populistic fantasies

 

[KingSnake]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41632084

The president of the autonomous Spanish region of Catalonia has failed to clarify whether he has declared independence, in a letter to Madrid.
Spain had issued a Monday deadline for Carles Puigdemont to clarify his intent - or face direct rule.
Instead, the Catalan leader called for negotiation over the next two months.

This is the worst poker bluff I've seen a long time.

 

[tuxfool]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41632084



This is the worst poker bluff I've seen a long time.

To be fair, not much you can do when everybody knows you're holding shitty cards.

 

[KingSnake]

To be fair, not much you can do when everybody knows you're holding shitty cards.

To be fair everybody knew that since the beginning and they still went all in from the opening hand.

 

[tuxfool]

To be fair everybody knew that since the beginning and they still went all in from the opening hand.

Sure, that just means that they're bad at poker. They did win a few hands by baiting a moron, though I'd question if that warrants a compliment.

 

[Bananajama]

I'd say just let them have the vote it'll shut them up one way or another

But then the SNP never shut up

 

[tolkir]

To be fair, not much you can do when everybody knows you're holding shitty cards.

At least, he could have been an adored martyr of the nationalists if he had said yes. Now, he'll be remembered as the president of 8 seconds.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Splitting from a nation despite all economical and political fatal fallout would just showcase that the new nation is unable to form any supranational unions because of some populistic fantasies

Yep. It's funny to me how some catalan pro-independent say they feel European and want to be part, of course, of the EU.

EU is about giving up your rights of government on your own region and letting people that lives on other regions to decide what to do, too. It's done already with things from farming, fishing, some education aspects, some immigration policies, culture policies, digital rights, budgets, obviously all things related to the Euro, etc etc
All those things that happen in Spain aren't decided by Spanish, but from all members of EU.

But pro-independence is wanting that only Catalan people decide that happens in their region, Catalonia, and not people from other regions, like Andalucia, Madrid, Valencia, etc.

See the contradiction?

 

[Metal B]

EU is about giving up your rights of government on your own region and letting people that lives on other regions to decide what to do, too. It's done already with things from farming, fishing, some education aspects, some immigration policies, culture policies, digital rights, budgets, obviously all things related to the Euro, etc etc
All those things that happen in Spain aren't decided by Spanish, but from all members of EU.

No, the EU members decide together, what to do. You can vote for the people, who represent your nation in those EU talks. The point of the EU is to create standards, which streamline process in all of Europe and make it easier to sell products between nations, which would normally have different requirements. Of course, this means making compromises (which al lot of people hate, because fuck you, i don't want to change).

 

[ClosingADoor]

Seems Spain is giving Catalonia another few days to figure out what they want. New deadline for Thursday to clear up whether they declared independence or not. This is the strangest thing ever.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Seems Spain is giving Catalonia another few days to figure out what they want. New deadline for Thursday to clear up whether they declared independence or not. This is the strangest thing ever.

To be fair it was like that from the beginning. They had until today to confirm whether they declared independence or not.

Anything that was different from a NO (like this unclear reply) would be understood as a YES. And in case of a yes they had until thursday to back down. If they don't the procedure for 155 starts.

 

[Funky Papa]

Seems Spain is giving Catalonia another few days to figure out what they want. New deadline for Thursday to clear up whether they declared independence or not. This is the strangest thing ever.

There were two deadlines. One to clarify the situation with a convincing statement, and a second one to allow Puigdemont to rectify and allow him to return to Constitutional order (paraphrasing).

Having two deadlines allows the government to mount the legalese for Article 155, which needs to be passed through the Senate (despite wildly inaccurante notions, Spain is not a presidential state, so Rajoy's input is only limited here). It also puts enormous pressure on Puigdemont and makes his position outright untenable.

The second deadline, by the way, takes place on the 19th. There's an European Council meeting that day, so Rajoy will be in Brussels along all the European heads of state plus Donald Tusk. It's expected that they'll provide their explicit or implicit support to Rajoy, which is going to throw another wrench in the works of JxSí.

Somehow, the worst poker bluff ever just got even worse.

 

[marcbret87]

This is becoming pure comedy. It is becoming increasingly clear that the Catalan is just trying to keep it together in any way they can. Their offer to negotiate is an absolute joke if they cannot even clarify their position on whether they declared independence or not.

 

[Thorrgal]

Can't answer your other post filled with nothing but bullshit now because Im on mobile now, but HO BOY, that number was an ESTIMATED number completely made up by the Generalitat, just like the 800 people wounded in the 1-O.

Yet you take it without question. El oh el, son.


Oh, btw today reporters without borders complained of the pressure the catalan media has put on them in order to impose their vision under intimidations

They then compared that pressure to Trump campaigns held by the far-right wing movement

So the 800 wounded was a "totally made up number"?

Lol the nerve of some of you

 

[Oriel]

Except with Catalonia it would make just as much sense to exclude the capital, Barcelona, along with the neighbouring densely populated areas.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=249224576&postcount=469



Not saying partition is the solution but really, a heavily boycotted vote that was prevented in some areas, while at the same time there were irregularities...and even then there was only a supposed turnout in the low 40's....That's not majority support regardless of how you feel about a real referendum, so it's radical to talk about separation based on that. Partition is less radical than a minority forcing the majority out of Spain.

Trust an Ulster Unionist to advocate fucking partition! Fucking hell, learn your own history.

 

[Thorrgal]

There's clearly a problem in Catalonia, that won't get solved by more repression.

It only will be resolved by a vote, and the longer it takes for an agreed referendum to take place, the higher the chances of the pro-independence side to win. That's just the way it is.

In my opinion, now there's roughly 40-40, with 20% undecided. You can say roughly 50-50, which is not enough to achieve independence at this point in time. That will come maybe in 1-2 generations, when and if the support is more like 60-70%

But here and now the only way out of this stalemate is to reach an agreement regarding some changes that can appease the majority of the Catalans and which with the majority of the Spanish can live, and put it to a vote. Otherwise we'll reach that 60-70% of support in no time