[Digital Foundry]PS5 uncovered

ethomaz said:
I don't think you understood what it wrote in that quote.

Basically the CPU is not being used so it keeps in lower frequency...
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You're the one who's not understanding. the PS5 uses AMD smartshift. Cerny is not inventing anything here. Look at the diagram below.
The keyword is "shared budget". the power used by the CPU has an impact on what power is available to be used by the GPU and vice versa.
Unless you are claiming that power is irrelevant for the CPU or GPU to deliver their maximum performance, your interpretation is flawed.
AQPviMR.jpg
 
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so wait a second, df people saved some news from the talking with cerny before the official presentation just to make another video after their previous kinda vague analysis??
talk about squeezing blood from a rock 😆

holy shit these guys are hilarious...
 
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Agnostic2020 said:
It doesn't have to keep fixed clocks (just like pc) when it's not needed by the game code. Not every scene uses all of the tf . So why not use this in your advatage and get your console running cooler when games doesn't demand it .

You are being obtuse for no reason lol
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And when games push these devices to the edge in 5 years and we get down clocks and missed frames then what? I guess hold back games for to protect the PS5 is the answer? Dont max out graphics and physics plus other good stuff to avoid down clocks?
 
Agnostic2020 said:
Lol did you even read the fucking segment.yes both can run at maximum at the same time. only when one becomes less busy system detects and runs it for that period slower since it is not needed to keep temperature low and system quiet
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Do you understand what is being said?

I can run my CPU at 5 GHz with no workload. But if the workload increases, its power consumption and heat output will increase and it will inevitably need to downclock. The PS5 has a hard limit on workload, as mentioned by Cerny himself. They do not expect the CPU and GPU to be at a constant 100% workload, which is why they expect the clocks to be maintained "most of the time". But if both are at max workload, underclocking is expected.

If this was not the case, they would be able to guarantee those clock speeds at all times. They cannot. So ask yourself in which situations the PS5 would not be able to. If your answer is different than mine, you're free to share it. But don't kid yourself that it will always run at max speeds, because they are specifically not guaranteeing that.
 
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Ascend said:
Do you understand what is being said?

I can run my CPU at 5 GHz with no workload. But if the workload increases, its power consumption and heat output will increase and it will inevitably need to downclock. The PS5 has a hard limit on workload, as mentioned by Cerny himself. They do not expect the CPU and GPU to be at a constant 100% workload, which is why they expect the be maintained "most of the time". But if both are at max workload, underclocking is expected.

If this was not the case, they would be able to guarantee those clock speeds at all times. They cannot. So ask yourself in which situations the PS5 would not be able to. If your answer is different than mine, you're free to share it. But don't kid yourself that it will always run at max speeds, because they are specifically not guaranteeing that.
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They are guaranteed but they drop the frequency by couole of % when gpu is not in use to keep it cool .
 
GymWolf said:
we need some test to see how much time they stay at their maximum clock with heavy demanding AAA games.
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Can't see that happening unless the system is completely hacked. I'm sure someone will try to work out some numbers based on power draw and comparisons with XSX.
 
vpance said:
Can't see that happening unless the system is completely hacked. I'm sure someone will try to work out some numbers based on power draw and comparisons with XSX.
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some people on reeeee talked about a "famous" guy who usually does this stuff with console, so it's not really impossible to do that.
 
Lone Wolf said:
A quote from the article:

"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores. However, this doesn't sound like a boost solution, but rather performance profiles similar to what we've seen on Nintendo Switch. "Regarding locked profiles, we support those on our dev kits, it can be helpful not to have variable clocks when optimising. Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies so that they can take advantage of the additional power," explains Cerny."

throttling back the CPU to ENSURE GPU sustained clock.
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So when you add next gen computations for example: ai or other stuff on the cpu that it needs to run faster , the gpu down clocks , sounds like that will happen more in future titles ...
 
Agnostic2020 said:
It doesn't have to keep fixed clocks (just like pc) when it's not needed by the game code. Not every scene uses all of the tf . So why not use this in your advatage and get your console running cooler when games doesn't demand it .

You are being obtuse for no reason lol
Click to expand...

Nobody says that PS5 games would look noticeably better if the PS5 had locked speeds in comparison to what it has now.
People state facts. CPU and GPU cannot both run at max speeds concurrently because of power budget. This is a fact.
BUT, it's also a fact that they don't have to, as you said yourself and many others, not all games need 100% CPU and GPU all the time. It is probably not going to bottleneck the PS5 whatsoever since whenever a situation in game needs more CPU, it can get it as the GPU probably won't run at 100% then and vice versa.

Doesn't change the fact that both can't run at 100% all the time.
Whether a fact is insulting to you or not depends on how you read and perceive said fact.
 
Agnostic2020 said:
He just said the dev kits don't have the variable frequency technique .like if u wanna cherry pick then no point in arguments bro
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There devkits has the variable frequency technique.

It doesn't not have SmartShift... it is two different things... so the devkits can't use the unused power of the CPU to GPU for example but the variable frequency based in workload is there.
 
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Agnostic2020 said:
He just said the dev kits don't have the variable frequency technique .like if u wanna cherry pick then no point in arguments bro
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when in retail, it only means any unused/low graphical scenes cpu may clock higher but since the dev had to downclock the cpu to maintain gpu at 2.23 then even in retail it'll still be downclocked most of the time. The variable only allows the cpu in that scenario to go higher if nothing really being pushed
 
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Here is the reality:
The PS5 is going to be an outstanding gaming console. One that I will own.
On paper, the XSX is more powerful and will likely have better performance. I will own that one too

Here is where I have a question:
A lot of people are skeptical about Sony's boost. Claiming it is a desperate decision and they wont hit those boosts. Is this true? Maybe, but I'll believe it when I see it. People are skeptical that Sony can keep the system cool to maintain boost.

On that same note, why is everyone taking Microsofts claim that the XSX system will maintain these massive speeds at face value. I'd say it's just as possible that the XSX could have heating issues.
 
Pc based clocks on 5700 XT and similar aren't just temperature based either.... power delivery and compute load are also factors ... so it looks like they've removed the temperature factor based on the chips AND cooling solution having a consistent profile .

At the right voltage my 5700XT clocks never vary more than 60 or so MHz from game to game and are always between 1980mhz and about 2040mhz.

If they've tuned it properly and know the profile of the cooling and APU as well as Cerny says they do they won't have any trouble being consistent.
 
DF

"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core."
 
CuNi said:
Nobody says that PS5 games would look noticeably better if the PS5 had locked speeds in comparison to what it has now.
People state facts. CPU and GPU cannot both run at max speeds concurrently because of power budget. This is a fact.
BUT, it's also a fact that they don't have to, as you said yourself and many others, not all games need 100% CPU and GPU all the time. It is probably not going to bottleneck the PS5 whatsoever since whenever a situation in game needs more CPU, it can get it as the GPU probably won't run at 100% then and vice versa.

Doesn't change the fact that both can't run at 100% all the time.
Whether a fact is insulting to you or not depends on how you read and perceive said fact.
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Actually CPU and GPU can run at max frequency concurrently at same time.
 
GymWolf said:
DF

"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core."
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Keep reading... you missed the reason.
The CPU is downclocked because it is basically not being used due engines being based in Jaguar workloads.
 
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Agnostic2020 said:
They are guaranteed but they drop the frequency by couole of % when gpu is not in use to keep it cool .
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Yeah, I don't think that's the way it works.
Basically every hardware out there, including your PC, consoles and phones, drops clocks when there is a low workload. The most important thing Cerny mentioned was that the way they are doing things is different than how things are being done. They supposedly flipped things on their head. His idea is to drop the clocks when there is a high workload (rather than a low workload) that would ultimately exceed the pre-defined power and cooling budget that they set for themselves.
 
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Agnostic2020 said:
It doesn't have to keep fixed clocks (just like pc) when it's not needed by the game code. Not every scene uses all of the tf . So why not use this in your advatage and get your console running cooler when games doesn't demand it .

You are being obtuse for no reason lol
Click to expand...

Honestly, you are. This is how gpus and CPUs have ran forever on both consoles and PC. They're not running at 100% when they're at idle. Why would you even talk about that as if it's something special?
 
ethomaz said:
Actually CPU and GPU can run at max frequency concurrently at same time.
Click to expand...

Keep on reading. That's why I said "both can't run at 100% all the time".
DF even says it themselves. Many developers scaled back CPU to ensure that GPU runs at fixed 2.23 GHz.
If they could run both at max clocks, tell me, why would devs need to ensure that the GPU runs at fixed 2.23 GHz?
 
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CuNi said:
Keep on reading. That's why I said "both can't run at 100% all the time".
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Of course it can't... if it can it should not have variable clocks lol


CuNi said:
DF even says it themselves. Many developers scaled back CPU to ensure that GPU runs at fixed 2.23 GHz.
If they could run both at max clocks, tell me, why would devs need to ensure that the GPU runs at fixed 2.23 GHz?
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Keep reading the reason is that the CPU is being underutilized due game code being optimized to Jaguar.
 
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Timestamped quote by DF....

"More than one developer has told us that they are running the CPU throttled back, allowing for excess power to pour into the GPU to ensure a consistently locked 2.23 GHz."

 
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Nothing makes any sense. Cerny: They can both run at high frequencies, you don't have to choose. Also Cerny: But when you actually use that performance you have to reduce frequencies. LOL. And in the GDC talk he made a point that it is not a boost mode, now he talks about boosted frequencies. It's basically him managing a PR nightmare. Saying BS like "the console can run at sustained peak frequencies as long as you don't need that performance" is Aaron Greenberg levels of professional bullshitting. My dick is 20 inches, but it doesn't like to be looked at.
 
So, the cpu will be limited and the gpu will be given more power. And the "variable clocks" mean the speeds only go down. From what I gather they are saying the PS5 runs mostly at max clocks, and where the "variable" comes into play is when clocks go down.

I just want to see actual gameplay on both consoles at this point. If PS5 runs MLB the Show 20 at native 4k 60FPS I'll be happy 😁
 
markusfenix75 said:
"the boost clock system should still see both components running near to or at peak frequency most of the time."

welp.
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Yes, like he stated at GDC presentation. Both obviously some people refused to believe OBVIOUSLY that it won't run at max. clock in the same time. Welp, there it is. It will.
 
This video basically confirms what I posted here.

FALCON_KICK said:
The confusion arises from Sony decision to implement the new AMD's 'SmartShift' tech in PS5 while Microsoft opted out.
From what I understood, CPU/GPU in every PC, almost always downclocks(@NXGamer video) for 2 main reasons,
1. that particular part of game is not GPU/CPU intensive to converse power.
2. due to temperature.
So is this same for locked systems like PS4/Xbox1?

Consoles are built around thermals and power constraint. Hence during certain sections of God Of War. both GPU/CPU inside PS4 together were drawing too much power to run those sections. So assuming PS4 had this AMD SmartShift tech. had that particular section of game been GPU intensive with no additional load on the CPU, AMD new tech would downclock the CPU frequency and redirect all the saved power to GPU without making the system draw additional power thereby maintaining the fan speed to run at constant levels.

This is where Sony stands to benefit whenever either CPU or GPU doesn't need that power, AMD 'SmartShift will ensure the CPU or GPU reduce its frequency and that power saved will instead be redirected to GPU or CPU respectively to perform efficiently without drawing additional power from the mains.

So in future PS5 game, PS5 would not run like "jet engine" assuming this is how AMD SmartShift works.
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Instead longdi longdi was calling BS on my post while himself BS'ing that Microsoft too has AMD Smartshift.

longdi said:
PS5 and Series X will use the same AMD design. Sony just choose to push their 36 CU to its limits, to make up the marketing numbers.

Hence their term variable is appended.

No more BS, no more half truths. All is clear for team green vision yo!
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Agnostic2020 said:
Cerny:

"There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."


Can we put the 9.2 tf bs to bed now .
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looking at some of the usual suspects, its still not good enough.
 
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core."



Well that's interesting....
 
Ascend said:
Timestamped quote by DF....

"More than one developer has told us that they are running the CPU throttled back, allowing for excess power to pour into the GPU to ensure a consistently locked 2.23 GHz."

Click to expand...

So either multiple devs are lying or Cerny is.

"There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."
 
darkinstinct said:
Nothing makes any sense. Cerny: They can both run at high frequencies, you don't have to choose. Also Cerny: But when you actually use that performance you have to reduce frequencies. LOL. And in the GDC talk he made a point that it is not a boost mode, now he talks about boosted frequencies. It's basically him managing a PR nightmare. Saying BS like "the console can run at sustained peak frequencies as long as you don't need that performance" is Aaron Greenberg levels of professional bullshitting. My dick is 20 inches, but it doesn't like to be looked at.
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it kinda sound like that and this "deep analysis" from df really doesn't tell us much more...
we still don't know how much time both gpu and cpu can run at full power during taxing scene (you know, the set-pieces in unchy or fighting 20 dinobots in horizon 2 etc.)
 
Really interesting hardware that Cerny has put together. Looking forward to hearing more as we get closer to launch.

Seems like a lot of the complaints/negativity are from people with reading comprehension issues. Here's a tip, read slower and more careful. It'll help you understand and be better in your careers, aside from being a better NeoGaf poster. Sad to see that the pandemic related school closures are hurting so many.
 
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Richard sounded a bit skeptical about many aspects of this machine's design.

It's concerning that many devs don't seem to be using the latest dev kits that unlock the performance being talked about. Everything about this sounds like its coming together at the last minute. Rumors of thermal issues... I dunno.

Proof will be in the pudding as he puts it I guess..
 
MaulerX said:
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core."



Well that's interesting....
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darkinstinct said:
So either multiple devs are lying or Cerny is.

"There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."
Click to expand...
...

"It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores."

The CPU is throttled because Zen cores are being underutilized... it is not even taking in consideration the workload.
 
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Agnostic2020 said:
Cerny:

"There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."


Can we put the 9.2 tf bs to bed now .
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Enough power, but what about heat, I cannot imagine that 2.23Ghz GPu is going to be cool....
 
GlassAwful said:
Richard sounded a bit skeptical about many aspects of this machine's design.

It's concerning that many devs don't seem to be using the latest dev kits that unlock the performance being talked about. Everything about this sounds like its coming together at the last minute. Rumors of thermal issues... I dunno.

Proof will be in the pudding as he puts it I guess..
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They got caught with their pants down and have been scrambling to make up the difference ever since. That's all there is to it. The GPU obviously wasn't clocked at 2.23ghz all this time.
 
ethomaz said:
...

"It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind"

The CPU is throttled because Zen cores are being underutilized... it is not even taking in consideration the workload.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean cpu will be running at full power. The devs had to downclock the cpu to keep gpu freq at 2.23. In retail variable will be active but since dev coded game to have cpu throttled to keep gpu maxed out, it won't matter much with variable. It'll only let cpu go higher freq when nothing is being pushed much. But since the game devs make have cpu throttled to keep gpu at 2.23, then in game the cpu will be mostly downclocked below 3.5ghz as well

Richard is just saying since most games for first year will be mostly utilising only 8cores with no threading, the downclock makes sense since they're not really going to push cpu anyway. But for games that push cpu, gpu will be variable and not maintaining 2.23ghz when workloads are being pushed to limits in graphical heavy scenes
 
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A few folk diving in without watching the video here.
Or at least hearing certain sentences then in the race to post a reply on the thread not listening to what clarification comes next.
 
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