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[aclar00]

What choice? The choice to be lazy?

I am not a fan of the "lazy dev" term. I dont think it really makes much sense. It's more of a cost saving measure if anything. Im no dev or coder, but my assumption is that the execs will say...."we are not waiting another month or two for the game to be optimized or made 60fps, we want it released now" and the actual development team doesnt have much of a choice.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

So what is the betting on who blinks first on pricing and when?

 

[splattered]

So what is the betting on who blinks first on pricing and when?

I think if Lockhart isn't real or coming out this year then it doesn't really matter who blinks first... i feel like regardless of who reveals pricing first the other will adjust to remain competitive.

If Lockhart is real then that might change things and allow more flexibility on both the high end and lower end so we shall see.

I'm kind of envisioning Sony finally breaking silence and showing the console some awesome games and putting the pricing out there and then Microsoft comes up from behind matching the PS5 price but also dropping shock announcement of Lockhart and a much lower price point.

Or the Lockhart could be total bs like I said above and we will be looking at two similarly priced consoles which is good.

 

[martino]

So what is the betting on who blinks first on pricing and when?

If i was the challenger i would want to adapt to what the leader has to offer.

I am not a fan of the "lazy dev" term. I dont think it really makes much sense. It's more of a cost saving measure if anything. Im no dev or coder, but my assumption is that the execs will say...."we are not waiting another month or two for the game to be optimized or made 60fps, we want it released now" and the actual development team doesnt have much of a choice.

Be glad you're smarter than the average or you can keep your emotion in check or the two at the same time.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

If i was the challenger i would want to adapt to what the leader has to offer.

So you think Microsoft wait for Sony but then when does Sony blink? July, August, later? Even Geoff said in the Bonus Round both need to get pre-orders open soon and that requires a price point.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I am not a fan of the "lazy dev" term. I dont think it really makes much sense. It's more of a cost saving measure if anything. Im no dev or coder, but my assumption is that the execs will say...."we are not waiting another month or two for the game to be optimized or made 60fps, we want it released now" and the actual development team doesnt have much of a choice.

Not sure how that fits into "dev choice"

Its already being branded as series x enhanced so it should already be optimized

 

[SlimySnake]

So what is the betting on who blinks first on pricing and when?

MS has already shown their hand. they wont go until july. sony cant afford to go wait that long, even if that is what their plan was.

I think they believe MS is well over $499 and want to see what they will price the series x at. Lockhart is a red herring imo, i dont think it launches on day 1. I think MS threw that out there to make Sony think twice before launching at $499, and downgrade their specs which as we see from the ram bandwidth downgrade, actually kinda worked.

Sony has no choice but to reveal the console and price in June. They kinda screwed themselves by going with a smaller die, and now they simply cant launch at the same pricepoint as Series X. But if Series X is $549 or $599 then they can go with a $500 PS5.

If the PS5 was $399, sony would have zero reservations, but I think that expensive SSD is the reason why Sony is going over $399. the question is how much smaller is that die really. Especially with the repurposed 3D audio CU, those I/O processors, and coherency engines. If it's around 300mm2, they will likely save $20 compared to the Xbox. $40 if the prices have doubled from last gen. How much cheaper is 448GBps ram compared to 560 MS is going with? 25% more bandwidth for 25% more costs? So $25 if PS5 RAM is $100?

But again, MS was smart and only ordered 10 GB of ultra fast ram, and 8 gb of even slower ram. so i bet it cost them the same as Sony. Best case scenario for Sony, their 825GB of SSD costs the same as 1TB of MS SSD. Their RAM costs $25 less and their Chip is around $40 less. Their cooling solution is inexpensive like cerny said so it's likely another $10-15 in savings That's almost $80 in savings that can help them launch $50 cheaper.

Worst case scenario, their ssd is more expensive, their die size is the same, their ram costs are the same and the cooling solution costs only a fraction less than MS's vapor chamber cooling. So they have a console that has 20% less tflops with the same BOM as MS. They will have to launch at $500 and hope for the best.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Bright also only ever seems to show 2 enemies on screen at the same time and a lot of the assets aren't that amazing either it just looked nice and shiny.

 

[ethomaz]

And after you profile you either improve the items that are using up the most time or modify them. Like lowering shadow quality, lowering resolution, removing visual features etc. So you do exactly what was said in the post you responded too.

Actually that is not optimization.

What you say is a profile/target... first you need to find a target (a series of effects on/off, resolution, etc) that will run around the 60fps (or the framerate you choose) after that you start to debug/profile the game to see if all parts will reach that framerate target.... when you find it you start to see the code optimization to make that part runs at solid framerate... after that you go to the next part and so.

In some games due all the optimization you do to the game run above the framerate target makes you have the option to even increase the level of some features (or enable them).

There is no optimization in lowering shadow quality, lowering resolution, removing visual features etc.
That is the brute force way.

Optimization means you will make you game code better to run without drops in the heavy parts... you need to debug/profile to see why your code is having issues in that specific part and change it.

What choice? The choice to be lazy?

Lazy most of times is the same as not having budget ($$$) for that.
Optimization is one of the most expensives parts of game development... so most companies don't go deep with that due budget constraint.

That is why today there are so much games bugged with bad performance at launch.

They are basically getting the money from gamers first to after work in optimizations.

 

[ethomaz]

Not sure how that fits into "dev choice"

Its already being branded as series x enhanced so it should already be optimized

That is of course the ideal scenario but most devs won't have the money to optimize... so the Series X enhanced will be only a bump in resolution/effects without take advantage of the hardware.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

These consoles can do better than that, that's just classical Ubisoft. As for the indie games, they also just got ported over. Performance will be better normally.

At least native 4k is the norm.

I would cut Ubisoft some slack here, it's a cross gen launch title that's being released on all PlayStation and Xbox platforms as well as PC and Stadia. They also probably don't have the "final" dev kits yet for next gen consoles so exact performance may not be nailed down.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That is of course the ideal scenario but most devs won't have the money to optimize... so the Series X enhanced will be only a bump in resolution/effects without take advantage of the hardware.

If they can get a bump in resolution why can't they get a bump in framerate too?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Lazy most of times is the same as not having budget ($$$) for that.
Optimization is one of the most expensives parts of game development... so most companies don't go deep with that due budget constraint.

That is why today there are so much games bugged with bad performance at launch.

They are basically getting the money from gamers first to after work in optimizations.

I give them slack last-gen since they were working with dogshit hardware

Not this time though. They shouldn't have any trouble getting their games to 60fps

 

[ethomaz]

If they can get a bump in resolution why can't they get a bump in framerate too?

I don't know maybe the code is not optimized enough for it...

I give them slack last-gen since they were working with dogshit hardware

Not this time though. They shouldn't have any trouble getting their games to 60fps

It is after all a dev choice.

- 60fps with concessions
- 30fps with better overall presentation

Devs most of time have time/budget just for one of these choices... hell some devs didn't have time/budget to neither so release the game in whatever state it is.

 

[Fake]

If they can get a bump in resolution why can't they get a bump in framerate too?

Can broke the game I guess.

 

[geordiemp]

I give them slack last-gen since they were working with dogshit hardware

Not this time though. They shouldn't have any trouble getting their games to 60fps

Thats how I feel as well, last gen you can blame jaguar.

This gen there is no excuse with Zen2.

 

[jasondefaoite]

But again, MS was smart and only ordered 10 GB of ultra fast ram, and 8 gb of even slower ram. so i bet it cost them the same as Sony.

The 10 chips used for DRAM on the Series X are all 14Gbps. 10GB are connected to via a 320bit bus (14*320/8 = 560GB/s). 6GB are connected via a 192bit bus (14*192/8=336GB/s). The 10 chips are not made of faster and slower parts.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I don't know maybe the code is not optimized enough for it...


It is after all a dev choice.

- 60fps with concessions
- 30fps with better overall presentation

Devs most of time have time/budget just for one of these choices... hell some devs didn't have time/budget to neither so release the game in whatever state it is.

I don't believe its as difficult or time-consuming as you're making it out to be.

Just look at the Pro and One X. The hardware itself did the part of the job for you and the devs didn't have to touch a thing.

 

[Neo_game]

I would cut Ubisoft some slack here, it's a cross gen launch title that's being released on all PlayStation and Xbox platforms as well as PC and Stadia. They also probably don't have the "final" dev kits yet for next gen consoles so exact performance may not be nailed down.

A big company like Ubisoft should not have problem of devkit. But I think due to corona virus most are probably working from their home and game testing is probably an issue as well. I think this will be a problem for others as well.

 

[M-V2]

Is not that I don't believe it. It just amazes me how could this be possible. It must be harder to compile it so it won't run at 60 than otherwise. That machine is 8 times a PS4 at the very least.

Indeed I agree with you, but we can't do nothing unfortunately...

 

[husomc]

Scorn is nothing new, its from 2017.

Looks like microsoft is going for quantity over quality ! That's one way to do it.

 

[Ascend]

The 10 chips used for DRAM on the Series X are all 14Gbps. 10GB are connected to via a 320bit bus (14*320/8 = 560GB/s). 6GB are connected via a 192bit bus (14*192/8=336GB/s). The 10 chips are not made of faster and slower parts.

You're right, but it's still important to note that the 192-bit bus shares the same lanes with the 320-bit bus. Otherwise it would have been a 512-bit bus.

 

[martino]

So you think Microsoft wait for Sony but then when does Sony blink? July, August, later? Even Geoff said in the Bonus Round both need to get pre-orders open soon and that requires a price point.

I didn't say they will be able to do it

 

[ethomaz]

I don't believe its as difficult or time-consuming as you're making it out to be.

Just look at the Pro and One X. The hardware itself did the part of the job for you and the devs didn't have to touch a thing.

Devs had to optimize a new profile for each one.
Even so the results are not that good for all cases.

 

[jasondefaoite]

You're right, but it's still important to note that the 192-bit bus shares the same lanes with the 320-bit bus. Otherwise it would have been a 512-bit bus.

Yup. Sony uses the same 14Gbps speeds for its GDDR6 parts (at least so far). The only question will be how many. 8 x 16Gbit? Could be some cost savings there compared to the 10 chips from MS, but how much? No idea.

 

[ethomaz]

Yup. Sony uses the same 14Gbps speeds for its GDDR6 parts (at least so far). The only question will be how many. 8 x 16Gbit? Could be some cost savings there compared to the 10 chips from MS, but how much? No idea.

It is 8 modules of 2GB (16Gb) each.
8x32bits = 256bits bus.

 

[Metroiddarks]

If the game is Series X enhanced like they said they've already optimized it for the platform and should just flip the switch to release that 30fps cap

They just probably increment resolution and other graphics settings close to ultra in pc.

 

[saintjules]

 

[Andodalf]

Did you expect XSX to have features not on High end PCs?

 

[IntentionalPun]

I mean.. what are people expecting? 3rd party games to have features on XSX that don't exist on PS5 or high-end PCs?

Huh?

Man the endless spamming of idiots from twitter here is at least a top 3 worst thing about GAF lol

 

[Metroiddarks]

If they can get a bump in resolution why can't they get a bump in framerate too?

The only people who can answer that works for Ubisoft we just can say theories , remember the AC is used as becnhemark many times
for high end pc so is not just everything scales 1:1.

 

[Mr Moose]

If Ass Creed is 30fps on next gen, expect Ubisoft to issue a statement saying "We decided to lock them at the same fps as last gen to avoid all the debates and stuff".

 

[ethomaz]

I can be wrong but the ideia from MS about DX12 Ultimate is to unify console and PC... so there is no exclusive feature on Xbox.
That is the ideia.

But I never did a deep research in DX12U to know if it is true.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I kind of take that as high end features also on PS5 and PCs but nothing exclusive to the XsX unless I am reading it wrong.

 

[Ascend]

Yup. Sony uses the same 14Gbps speeds for its GDDR6 parts (at least so far). The only question will be how many. 8 x 16Gbit? Could be some cost savings there compared to the 10 chips from MS, but how much? No idea.

As far as I'm aware, Microsoft is using 6x 2GB + 4x 1GB chips, while Sony is using 8x 2GB chips.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Aren't those cache scrubbers or whatever an exclusive feature on PS5?

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Actually that is not optimization.

What you say is a profile/target... first you need to find a target (a series of effects on/off, resolution, etc) that will run around the 60fps (or the framerate you choose) after that you start to debug/profile the game to see if all parts will reach that framerate target.... when you find it you start to see the code optimization to make that part runs at solid framerate... after that you go to the next part and so.

In some games due all the optimization you do to the game run above the framerate target makes you have the option to even increase the level of some features (or enable them).

There is no optimization in lowering shadow quality, lowering resolution, removing visual features etc.
That is the brute force way.

Optimization means you will make you game code better to run without drops in the heavy parts... you need to debug/profile to see why your code is having issues in that specific part and change it.


Lazy most of times is the same as not having budget ($$$) for that.
Optimization is one of the most expensives parts of game development... so most companies don't go deep with that due budget constraint.

That is why today there are so much games bugged with bad performance at launch.

They are basically getting the money from gamers first to after work in optimizations.

Yeah yeah, all that... However in this case the game's logic is also optimized to run on the previous generation CPU which is much slower.... Seriously, I hope it has raytracing enabled if it runs at 30fps.

 

[ethomaz]

Aren't those cache scrubbers or whatever an exclusive feature on PS5?

I don't believe that is include in graphical render feature.
It is more to performance.

This cache scrubber won't make the PS5 do something unique... it will probably help to be faster.

But maybe he is talking about hardware features... I don't know.

 

[icy121]

Yesterday was a rough day for the Github brigade, wasn't it?



Enjoy!

 

[xacto]

There's no excuse for a cross-gen game not being able to achieve 60fps

None.

You want to know what the excuse is? Lazy developers.

 

[Metroiddarks]

If Ass Creed is 30fps on next gen, expect Ubisoft to issue a statement saying "We decided to lock them at the same fps as last gen to avoid all the debates and stuff".

Also could just as theory they do this because is new project will be again 30 fps and don't know the people say why now is 30 if the last was 60.

I don't know I just trow a crazy theory, but I am sure for Ubisfot is not worth it (because money and time) to optimize that game to run 60 fps in consoles
if you don't like then don't buy it, talk with you wallet instead to act like children who call a the devs lazy when we have a general issue of crunch time.

Of course, you can play in PC if you are one the few with a gpu capable to run that game to 4k and 60 fps.

 

[xacto]

That is of course the ideal scenario but most devs won't have the money to optimize... so the Series X enhanced will be only a bump in resolution/effects without take advantage of the hardware.

I really hope most big companies will have money to optimize, otherwise all this hardware this new generation is here to do what?! I agree with indie studios not being able to push the envelope too much in this respect.

Hoping this is just the cross-gen malaise, otherwise...

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Yesterday was a rough day for the Github brigade, wasn't it?



Enjoy!

Wtf did I just watch. That first clip is so disgusting, since when did having a preference in a gaming console warrent so much hate. I genuinely believe these people have mental health issues.

 

[ethomaz]

Yesterday was a rough day for the Github brigade, wasn't it?



Enjoy!

Seems like they will have a bad gen again

 

[Audiophile]

Not really, I just wont buy 30 fps games on my Ps5, their loss...

Dont need that anymore for extra resolution I cant even see.

Games will be 60 FPS or will die.

Resolution and FPS are not the only factors though, they may favour a large jump in graphical fx, simulation etc.

 

[Fake]

Yikes about those videos.

 

[silent head]

 

[Zoro7]

Wait the new assassins creed is 30 fps? Well that's poor showing.

 

[Mr Moose]

Also could just as theory they do this because is new project will be again 30 fps and don't know the people say why now is 30 if the last was 60.

I don't know I just trow a crazy theory, but I am sure for Ubisfot is not worth it (because money and time) to optimize that game to run 60 fps in consoles
if you don't like then don't buy it, talk with you wallet instead to act like children who call a the devs lazy when we have a general issue of crunch time.

Of course, you can play in PC if you are one the few with a gpu capable to run that game to 4k and 60 fps.

I'm just taking the piss out of Ubisoft

Assassin's Creed Unity will run at 900p/30fps on both PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, Ubisoft has confirmed, with the publisher opting to aim for platform parity to avoid discussion over the differences in performance.

"We decided to lock them at the same specs to avoid all the debates and stuff,"

Assassin's Creed "Parity": Unity is 900p/30fps on both PS4 & Xbox One

Assassin's Creed Unity will run at 900p/30fps on both PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, Ubisoft has confirmed, with the publisher opting to aim for platform parity to avoid discussion over the differences in performance. "We decided to lock them at the same specs to avoid all the debates and stuff,"...

www.neogaf.com

I doubt I'll be buying it anyway, still haven't finished the Egyptian one.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

I think I know the answer about ACV:

We have seen marketing deals for timed exclusives, timed DLC, marketing rights, Season passes

This gen, Microsoft and Sony can have exclusive framerate deals with 3rd party companies. Sony have bagged 60fps for ACV, Microsoft have had to settle with 30FPS. Battlefield 6 will be 120fps on XSX but only 60fps on PS5