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[J_Gamer.exe]

Brings me back to this video where he talks about PS5 having a possible Zen 3 feature (unified L3 cache across 1 big unified CCX cluster instead of two, timestamped)




EDIT: oh shit, RGT might be right.

So theoretically what does this mean exactly vs the xbox cpu?

Any ideas?

Obviously less latency is a big win but I wonder how much and how this compares...

 

[MasterCornholio]

So theoretically what does this mean exactly vs the xbox cpu?

Any ideas?

Obviously less latency is a big win but I wonder how much and how this compares...

Well I only watched part of the video but Red suspects that the XSX might have similar features.

What I find really interesting is how one of Sonys priorities was to eliminate latency in the system. I'm not very sure of the importance of latency but Red said that it's very important for high framerates.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Well I only watched part of the video but Red suspects that the XSX might have similar features.

What I find really interesting is how one of Sonys priorities was to eliminate latency in the system. I'm not very sure of the importance of latency but Red said that it's very important for high framerates.

On the same video, there was a reply in which someone stated we have already seen a render of the Series X APU and it shows that the CCX clusters on the CPU are not unified.

here is a link:

https://hexus.net/media/uploaded/2020/3/45ae9395-f626-487b-b980-295ec9575fdc.jpg

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

So theoretically what does this mean exactly vs the xbox cpu?

Any ideas?

Obviously less latency is a big win but I wonder how much and how this compares...

At the speed a CPU runs at, having to go get some data from RAM is like walking to the next building, where having it in your cache is like having the data you need in your room.

When you only have 8ms per frame (120 FPS) this kind of latency matters.

Bandwidth is like how big your pockets are, and latency is like how fast you run to go and get that data to stuff into those pockets.

It doesn't matter if you have massive pockets if the data turns up too late to get the frame out before 8ms has elapsed.

A system that needs to take less frequent trips to RAM because its caches are faster and don't get entirely invalidated (Coherency Engine) should see less frame drops and have a higher average frame rate as frame times get smaller and smaller.

High frame rate is critical for something like VR, and Sony may have specifically included Coherency Engines, cache scrubbers and be running the GPU as fast as they are doing all to aid latency so PS5 can deliver better VR than PS4 could.

From the wording of what Matt was saying, and from RGT's sources (no idea how reliable he is), it could be that PS5 CPU will spend less time waiting for a RAM fetch and be doing useful work more often as it either has a unified L3 cache between all cores like Zen3 architecture, or it manages the problems of cache coherency better.

The GPU will already be doing this, and Cerny did say that "one" of the jobs of the Coherency Engines was working with the GPU cache scrubbers, implying it also has a role to play on the CPU side, too.

It could be that XSX has the potential to push more pixels per frame, but PS5 has the potential to push more frames per second.

The relationship between both aren't linear exactly because of cache/RAM latencies.

PlayStations IO patent also has just as much emphasis on latency as it does on bandwidth, which is why so much of the pipeline is offloaded to fixed function accelerators. Low latency is down as a key requirement, just as much as high bandwidth is.

 

[Sinthor]

Yer i recall that tweet, it is beyond ridiculous for him to make a statement like that.
I mean he is obviously a total xbox fan boy probably getting dividends from his man Phil.

His quality of his videos are actually decent in production value but if your after a fair shake in whats going on in the console market, he is best to avoid watching.

Tbh i don't even know, who is on the straight and narrow anymore.

I think it's pretty easy to call. Differences, if any, will be minor. People who call for a large visible difference forget that in THIS generation there was a much bigger approximately 40% power advantage to the PS4. The only differences that generated had to be detailed by Digital Foundry using super zoom. I'm sure the Xbox fans here would agree as have the ones I know, that these differences didn't make them enjoy their games any less and none of them have ever told me they could TELL the difference. But now for some reason, some of those same people (online anyway) are trying to claim that with only about a 15% difference...there's supposed to be some marked difference that we will see? HIGHLY UNLIKELY. Actually, there may be a visible difference between the two systems, but that visible difference will be in the speed of loading games, etc. Even there though...it's not going to be a difference that makes an XBX owner cry because the PS5 loads a level a few seconds faster. I think that's going to be about the only difference we really see. But...we need to see more of the games to be sure, of course.

Bottom line, buy which system has the games you will want to play. Basing your decisions on technical points and fleeting technical advantages usually isn't the best way to go, especially in the ever changing electronics/technology field. I mean the PS4 was most powerful sure, but a few years later you had the mid-generation refresh Xbox that smoked it. But you know what? People with PS4's still were just fine and enjoyed their games. So it goes with these little plastic boxes and so it will ever go. Don't chase the 'red ring of power!' That's a fools errand.

 

[roops67]

Just my theory. The unified CCX L3 cache is probably (one of) the reason why Sony had trouble clocking the CPU higher. It takes up a big chunk of the die area and is a concentrated heat source, whereas split into smaller chunks as on the XSX CPU heat gets distributed. So hence the 100mhz 300mhz clock gains on XSX

 

[Metroiddarks]

It never crossed my mind that they could target Halo Infinite at 30fps on some versions of the game. Doesn't the Halo series pride itself for being 60fps?

I think 343 Industries and Microsoft will want to keep it at 60fps, with reduced (or dynamic) resolutions compared to Halo 5 maybe. Multiplayer is also a strong reason to keep them all at 60fps.

A lot of it depends how they started, did they design the game with the Xbox One as a base, continuing from Halo 5, or did they actually target those much higher specs (as you say) for the Series X four or so years ago.

Only Halo 5 was in 60 fps and the price to pay in the graphics in campaign is not worth it in my opinion in the base console, the LoD, the animation framerate in the
distance for the NPCs and things like shadows make many time looks Halo 5 very similar to Halo 4.

The thing is as some games of Xbox studios they don't take much attention to the base console because they know the marketing will focus in the top
version XSX/PC. Also the delta in CPU will be ridiculous and they can say if you buy the new console you get the 60 fps is a good way to market your new consoles.

The thing with CPU is not so easy to scale as a GPU if the decide to have Halo Infinite to 60 fps in base console in campaign (I am only talking of campaign) they
will underutilize a lot the XSX,XSS CPU while your team suffer to optimize the game in my opinion this is the worst decision for the dev.

If someone say "but who cares 60 fps is always better" yes is true but your budget and time is the same and help your team to create a game which include all the
new ideas instead to make your team suffer. Halo 5 was 60 fps and was a bad Halo (not bad a game). I prefer to play Halo Reach to 30 fps than Halo 5 to 60 fps because
equals to graphics doesn't make you game good neither the frame do also I prefer a new mechanic running to 30 fps instead the same running to 60 fps.

I play games for the mechanics and narratives not for graphics neither for framerates (I am good with any >=30)

The multiplayer is other thing totally different thing as you don't need to so many NPC as Halo has in campaign so your CPU has more power to be used.

 

[Corndog]

Just my theory. The unified CCX L3 cache is probably (one of) the reason why Sony had trouble clocking the CPU higher. It takes up a big chunk of the die area and is a concentrated heat source, whereas split into smaller chunks as on the XSX CPU heat gets distributed. So hence the 100mhz 300mhz clock gains on XSX

Wasnt it not that long ago that we were hearing the consoles would have severely cut down cpu cache?

Edit: I looked a bit more. I believe it came from the flute benchmark leak. I don't pretend to understand it but people were saying it showed an 8 mb cpu cache.

 

[Corndog]

On the same video, there was a reply in which someone stated we have already seen a render of the Series X APU and it shows that the CCX clusters on the CPU are not unified.

here is a link:

https://hexus.net/media/uploaded/2020/3/45ae9395-f626-487b-b980-295ec9575fdc.jpg

Same shot but higher res I think.

 

[Metroiddarks]

So theoretically what does this mean exactly vs the xbox cpu?

Any ideas?

Obviously less latency is a big win but I wonder how much and how this compares...

Any here or in twitter or any other place can give you a number without break NDA, so don't believe for now any number.

Basically any kind operation require time which is extremely low in ns but even then just the fact to communicate two core inside a chiplet
require enough nanoseconds that you will miss some clock cycles, this one of the many reasons of why things like flops are just theoric limit.

So companies like Sony customize its CPU and GPU in order to reduce any bottleneck possible and also removing things which are not necessary while reduce costs.
I want to see more now the teardown of PS5 specially because I want to see that SoC.

Before I believed any kind of customization done by Sony was done also for Xbox but that comment from Matt say he knows that is not necessary true, so if that is true
and I think it is (he inusal open for this kind of discussion), let's say that if you have two CPUs (with 4 cores) one running lets say 1.1 Ghz vs 1.05 Ghz but the second has
7% less latency, this could mean if you run a process is just one core the first CPU will finish faster but if you have a process which requires more than 1 core then is possible
the second CPU will finish first.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Hold onto your papers fellow scholars
Imagine this if you will... Having a AI powered GPU, generating graphics not through hardcore calculations done on CU cores but from what's its learnt on it's neural network. Yeah NVIDIA are using Tensor cores for DLSS2.0 for very convincing upscaling. Could there come a day where the graphics for games are generated by what it has been trained? The above video has shown machine learning can be trained to replicate realistic physics, acting like it's calculating the results but infact is guessing the results from what's its learnt, and doing it much faster than actual calculations! Analogous to baseball player batting a ball without calculating the trajectory. Could this be the future of realtime rendering, computers moving away from doing intense calculations but instead accurately guessing the results from learnt experience and much faster, this could mean it would be recognizing and aware of what it is rendering (or is it imagening??). How far down the road would that be from it being self aware / sentient?? It's feeling like we are entering the Twilight Zone
What a time to be alive... but not for long
(If our demise is not by the uprising of the machines then defo it will be by the cats!)

It is a very, very interesting matter, and that channel is a wonderful channel to keep watching its updates. Those newborns mofos won't appreciate that as much as we'll do, they've never tried 8-bit gaming. The old Test Drive game in the 1980's car game was described "realistic" at that time. I was a sperm or wearing diapers at that time though.

Ditching silicon for carbon? I think it's another major step ahead when terabytes are like gigabytes today, before going to quantum computing! Exciting times ahead of us.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

CRYSIS REMASTERED TO MOSTLY MAKE USE OF PS4 PRO'S HIGHER SPECS; PS5 TEASE

Crysis Remastered Project Lead at Crytek Steffen Halbig was asked if the game has a Playstation 5 version in development. He answered, "Like most other developers out there we are following PS5 closely." For now, the remastered version will be PS4-only, but his answer suggests there could be a chance in the future.

Krupkin shared his enthusiasm for the upcoming next-gen PS5 console. "The future looks very promising [for PS5]. From a development perspective we are excited to see how we can push the boundaries of the new hardware and utilize Sony's new innovations in our games."

Crysis Remastered to Mostly Make Use of PS4 Pro’s Higher Specs; PS5 Tease

Saber Interactive and Crytek recently discussed how the upcoming video game Crysis Remastered will take advantage of the PS4 Pro's higher specs.

sirusgaming.com

 

[lepermessiah]

I'm a simple FUD boi, I see a bigger number and I say thusly, "therefore better." I get rebutted with latency efficiencies, fast caches and greater CU occupancy complicating the story and yet I dip muh dicc in more sultry FUD; lather it up and cry out for saint Greenberg to hurry up with the baked beans that I ordered so that we may enjoy some warm ray traced flatulence.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Xbox fans talking about power and resolution... they forgot they played on 720p/30fps, 40% less powerful and 100$ more expensive system

But Xbox One had a 150 Mhz faster CPU than PS4!, PS4 has been holding back Xbox One all this time... oh, wait...

 

[3liteDragon]

Idk I just find it hilarious that the only way to decide which console is the most powerful is to look at it's theoretical peak performance (teraflops) which it's never going to hit anyway. Cause judging by what I've seen and heard from both companies, the PS5's sounding like the more powerful console when you look at the entire system architecture, but hey ik nobody gives a fuck about what I think anyway lol.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Sinthor]

Idk I just find it hilarious that the only way to decide which console is the most powerful is to look at it's theoretical peak performance (teraflops) which it's never going to hit anyway. Cause judging by what I've seen and heard from both companies, the PS5's sounding like the more powerful console when you look at the entire system architecture, but hey ik nobody gives a fuck about what I think anyway lol.

Just my 2 cents.

Totally agree. Especially as this generation will have among the smallest differential if not THE smallest differential, the whole "power" thing really doesn't matter. It's going to come down to what ecosystem you prefer and what exclusives. Or both, for those who are really into that. I'll be getting a PS5 but I'm still wanting to see what the XSX has to offer. It's all going to give us all a glimpse of what we'll be playing during the course of the generation and the kind of capabilities we can expect.

 

[3liteDragon]

Idk I just find it hilarious that the only way to decide which console is the most powerful is to look at it's theoretical peak performance (teraflops) which it's never going to hit anyway. Cause judging by what I've seen and heard from both companies, the PS5's sounding like the more powerful console when you look at the entire system architecture, but hey ik nobody gives a fuck about what I think anyway lol.

Just my 2 cents.

So coincidentally, there's a whole thread dedicated to this, posted about an hour ago by Tqaulity . Highly recommend reading it.

Real Talk: Gaming Hardware Is About Maximizing Efficiency Not TFLOPs

The discussion on which next gen console is more "powerful" has been heating up lately with most believing the Xbox Series X to be more powerful solely on higher spec counts in certain categories. Yet some folks counter that with how the custom hardware in PS5 will alleviate some of it's...

www.neogaf.com

 

[marvifrom]

Ps5 Teardown next month or closer to release date?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What has happened to Bo, hes disappeared, Three choices, hes been banned from this thread, he is actually Drdisrespect and hes MIA or not sleeping for a week has finally caught up with him.

RIP BO.. cry

Nah, been watching football content, you know, English PL is back and Manchester United are killing it with Pogba and Bruno and the rest! And been busy in this other thread about TV's, I think it should help a lot here for best TV for next gen console gaming:

TV's Vs Monitors, and Why TV's Make Much More Sense for Next Gen Consoles

I hope this helps! And a high-end, considered as the best TV for gaming to some, the LG CX (although it's 40Gbps not 48Gbps compared to previous C9) 4K is 4x times 1080p quality, if you're still watching 4K content on a 1080p screen then you're only recieving a maximum of 25% of the...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

I mean yeah to me it personally does. It's like asking someone if they prefer x car over y car because one is faster than the other which is down to personal opinion and I have mine. Some people prefer other things about cars that sways their own decisions.

At most it will make me buy one before the other.. Xbox first most likely then a disc less PS5 you know?

Mind blowing stuff I know.

From what I was reading you came in a bit too pushy, not to mention using some already debunked claims (9tf), so it shouldn't be surprising other people more in the know will immediately push back. Tbh it feels disingenuous that you claim some alleged "power" advantage to prefer an XSX when during the last generation the PS4 hardware was noticeably superior (and cheaper). Does that mean last gen you were a PS "fan"? If no, then why not? Obviously you weren't swayed by "power" discussion, you probably prefer some games or you really like the color green or the controller feels better or whatever. So if "power" didn't seduce you, why would you expect to persuade anyone else with that argument?

Peace though, no hostility from me, don't want you to feel attacked

 

[xacto]

I'm a simple FUD boi, I see a bigger number and I say thusly, "therefore better." I get rebutted with latency efficiencies, fast caches and greater CU occupancy complicating the story and yet I dip muh dicc in more sultry FUD; lather it up and cry out for saint Greenberg to hurry up with the baked beans that I ordered so that we may enjoy some warm ray traced flatulence.

Since you are AUTHORITY, do you think that after the Xbox's July event, the world will be the same?

 

[lepermessiah]

Since you are AUTHORITY, do you think that after the Xbox's July event, the world will be the same?

This is an interesting question with a potentially theoretical peak of an answer, I'm not sure we'll hit it, but one thing is certain - I will feel good after the showing. Some good lubricated fun with ol mate Greenberg and mad dog Spence and we'll be hitting the midnight express to DMA controller climaxes and sub surface jizz scattering.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

This is an interesting question with a potentially theoretical peak of an answer, I'm not sure we'll hit it, but one thing is certain - I will feel good after the showing. Some good lubricated fun with ol mate Greenberg and mad dog Spence and we'll be hitting the midnight express to DMA controller climaxes and sub surface jizz scattering.

 

[xacto]

This is an interesting question with a potentially theoretical peak of an answer, I'm not sure we'll hit it, but one thing is certain - I will feel good after the showing. Some good lubricated fun with ol mate Greenberg and mad dog Spence and we'll be hitting the midnight express to DMA controller climaxes and sub surface jizz scattering.

All that goodness?! Oh my... even if ole boie Greenberg said no Fable, no Perfect Dark? You have this one chance to correct that statement, otherwise it will remain like that, so help me the godlike PS5 I/O.

I have spoken.

 

[pasterpl]

so 4th week of July for Xbox game studios

All that goodness?! Oh my... even if ole boie Greenberg said no Fable, no Perfect Dark? You have this one chance to correct that statement, otherwise it will remain like that, so help me the godlike PS5 I/O.

I have spoken.

did Greenberg actually said no fable or perfect dark?

 

[xacto]

so 4th week of July for Xbox game studios



did Greenberg actually said no fable or perfect dark?

 

[Raoul_Duke]

From what I was reading you came in a bit too pushy, not to mention using some already debunked claims (9tf), so it shouldn't be surprising other people more in the know will immediately push back. Tbh it feels disingenuous that you claim some alleged "power" advantage to prefer an XSX when during the last generation the PS4 hardware was noticeably superior (and cheaper). Does that mean last gen you were a PS "fan"? If no, then why not? Obviously you weren't swayed by "power" discussion, you probably prefer some games or you really like the color green or the controller feels better or whatever. So if "power" didn't seduce you, why would you expect to persuade anyone else with that argument?

Peace though, no hostility from me, don't want you to feel attacked

He probably will tell you "I bought the world most powerful console xbox one x "

 

[sircaw]

Nah, been watching football content, you know, English PL is back and Manchester United are killing it with Pogba and Bruno and the rest! And been busy in this other thread about TV's, I think it should help a lot here for best TV for next gen console gaming:

TV's Vs Monitors, and Why TV's Make Much More Sense for Next Gen Consoles

I hope this helps! And a high-end, considered as the best TV for gaming to some, the LG CX (although it's 40Gbps not 48Gbps compared to previous C9) 4K is 4x times 1080p quality, if you're still watching 4K content on a 1080p screen then you're only recieving a maximum of 25% of the...

www.neogaf.com

Been watching Man utd too, been awesome of late, nice to see them back with a Bang.
don't leave alone in here with all these damn cats, have some soul man.

 

[sircaw]

So coincidentally, there's a whole thread dedicated to this, posted about an hour ago by Tqaulity . Highly recommend reading it.

Real Talk: Gaming Hardware Is About Maximizing Efficiency Not TFLOPs

The discussion on which next gen console is more "powerful" has been heating up lately with most believing the Xbox Series X to be more powerful solely on higher spec counts in certain categories. Yet some folks counter that with how the custom hardware in PS5 will alleviate some of it's...

www.neogaf.com

Your a star, thanks for that.

 

[ToadMan]

This can be read either way though - Greenberg might be annoyed that what they hoped were a couple of big reveals have had the bubble burst by this find. Then again, yeah a lot of companies go and take domain names/Social media handles out of circulation just in case they choose to use them in future, sell them in future or to make sure some other company don't associate them with something undesirable.


So these games are still a possibility I'd say. This is the kind of thing that happens when they delay the reveal too long - things start to leak and the expectation grows.

To put it another way, if Fable isn't shown then there'll be a lot of disappointment. If PD isn't announced and trailed - OK maybe not the same level of disappointment but MS need to have something 1st party and big to show that people can get excited for.

MS have got 15 studios now - they can't just show Halo, Forza and Gears 5 port and walk away. So personally I'd put this down as a Greenberg misdirection and assume Fable will be there and probably PD will as well.

Not to mention Obsidian new game, several AAA 3rd party exclusives and whatever those newly formed MS studios are working on. MS should and must make a major splash in July.

 

[xacto]

This can be read either way though - Greenberg might be annoyed that what they hoped were a couple of big reveals have had the bubble burst by this find. Then again, yeah a lot of companies go and take domain names/Social media handles out of circulation just in case they choose to use them in future, sell them in future or to make sure some other company don't associate them with something undesirable.


So these games are still a possibility I'd say. This is the kind of thing that happens when they delay the reveal too long - things start to leak and the expectation grows.

To put it another way, if Fable isn't shown then there'll be a lot of disappointment. If PD isn't announced and trailed - OK maybe not the same level of disappointment but MS need to have something 1st party and big to show that people can get excited for.

MS have got 15 studios now - they can't just show Halo, Forza and Gears 5 port and walk away. So personally I'd put this down as a Greenberg misdirection and assume Fable will be there and probably PD will as well.

Not to mention Obsidian new game, several AAA 3rd party exclusives and whatever those newly formed MS studios are working on. MS should and must make a major splash in July.

I think same here, maybe the games will still be shown, and Greenberg wanted to keep the element of surprise, or the games will be shown at a later date. If I were Greenberg, I also wouldn't have said anything IF the games are going to be presented; it's interesting though that he placed his statement as a direct reply to Tom Warren, as if trying to make him stay put in his corner for a change.

Also:

Xbox Series X won’t be getting a Fable 4 reveal

Xbox Series X July games showcase won't include Fable 4 or a Perfect Dark sequel

www.tomsguide.com

But again, it's just Tom's take on the same tweet, jumping to conclusions with a clickbait title, since Greenberg didn't exactly say those games wouldn't be shown. Personally, I would be very interested in Fable.

 

[Throttle]

Ah, that totally makes sense now. Same CPU speed as the XsX. It is known that 100 mhz opens up an endless array of possibilities for games.

Is this 1995?

 

[xacto]

Is this 1995?

In your honor, Sir!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

How well Series S sells in comparison to Series X will be extremely interesting.

We've had a few Series X Enhanced "interviews" so far where the studio representative has done very little talking about their game, and a lot of hitting the same talking points as all the other "interviews"; mentioning resolution and frame rate, potential for adding some ray-traced effects, and even more weirdly sometimes plugging how great backwards compatibility is. All in response to very robotic leading questions that feel as if they're being asked by the person writing the answers to justify the talking points.

That Series X is being offered as the big native resolution high frame rate machine almost seems as if it's the "Pro" offering to the Series S base machine.

Can there be Series X games, and not just Series X Enhanced games? Sony wouldn't allow PS4 Pro only games, and there needed to be feature parity with PS4 which held back the project scope of some PS VR multiplayer titles where frame rate was critical. Firewall Zero Hour was designed to have dynamic lights and shadows and early footage running on PS4 Pro showed it, but it couldn't get through QA on PS4 so the feature was dropped to maintain parity and keep the multiplayer gameplay fair between both consoles.

If Series X is the "Pro" variant of Series S, with them both being of the same generation, with the same expected lifetime, and are essentially the same platform, then depending on how well they sell compared to each other the talk of how something could be scaled down to Series S might be the wrong way to look at it.
It assumes Series X is the primary and lead platform for a project, when in fact it could end up the other way around, like PS4 is to PS4 Pro.

The real question then becomes how do games scale up to Series X, and then suddenly all of the recent marketing surrounding Series X hardware seems to make sense, as does the Series X Enhanced badge.

Series S only makes sense if it is to be more popular and sell better than Series X. I've always thought of it as being a cheaper console to the Series X "main event", and maybe that's why it was revealed first to give that impression.

Microsoft need market share more than anything else right now, and price has by far the biggest impact on that.

So what happens with something like the Unreal Engine 5 tech demo? Something reduced to an average of 1440P at a stable 30 FPS on PS5, where the compute capability of the GPU isn't just used for painting more pixels, but for doing the bulk of the Nanite geometry data crunching and triangle work? Whatever GPU advantage Series X has over PS5 will only mean it sits at a slightly higher average dynamic resolution at best. Certainly not 4K and/or 60 FPS as the delta between the two systems isn't even approaching that significant.
What becomes of a game or project like that on Series S, if it is the starting point and lead platform that needs feature parity with Series X?
It would need new mesh assets entirely to even reach 1080P, which adds significantly more cost to the project and negates the savings offered by something like Nanite in the first place.
Project scope is set as much by budget (time/money) as it is by hardware.

If Series X is tied to Xbox One there is no question at all that game project scope is limited for Series X, for the same reason the new Ratchet and Clank game couldn't be designed as it is if it had to also target PS4.

Series S having Series X CPU and IO mitigates most of this problem entirely, but if Series S massively outsells Series X, it also means the scaling between the two will likely always be just in pixel counts, as hinted at by Series X marketing.
With finite budgets and significantly more Series S than X, it might not be a question of how to make it work on Series S, but how to economically add value to Series X, with higher resolution and frame rate being the easy option on the table.

And what's the point of Series S if it's not to sell massively more units than Series X and hopefully PS5?

No sane game studio that wants to make money is making a PC game targeted at making a 2080Ti sweat. They certainly have graphics options that can be adjusted to do just that, but only for diminishing returns in graphics quality over the more typical settings.
If all PCs in the world had 2080Tis I can't imagine the graphics we'd see now in PC wouldn't be any different.
We've had GPUs as powerful as what will be found in PS5 and XSX for a while now, but I'm certain graphics on PC will take a leap in response to this level of GPU becoming commonplace on console.

The GPU found in PS4 was available for a long time already in the PC space before PS4 launched, and has been thoroughly trounced since then.
But where are the games that look as good as The Last of Us Part II does on a base PS4 on PC back then?
They weren't made because project scope for graphics like that is limited not only by budget but the capability of the base hardware spec you target.

Nobody was targeting PC games at efficiently stretching a 7950 back then, although they could do it by cranking up some processing for diminishing image quality returns.

Nobody is targeting PC games at efficiently stretching a 2080Ti as their baseline right now. That will start happening as PS5 and XSX become widespread.

Can Series X have games made independently for only it that can do that? Or is it a Pro variant of a Series S that will be seeking diminishing returns in image quality? It's much more expensive to make two different lots of geometry and level design than it is bumping up a frame buffer or rate.

It shouldn't matter much for multi-platforms as they still need to account for PC, but it could show up in first-party games if the role of Series X is to only offer more pixels to games designed around a much bigger Series S market share.

Naughty Dog is extremely talented, extremely well funded, and a first-party studio.
TLoU2 on PS4 Pro got nothing but a resolution increase. It is a higher image quality, but not a world apart. The Pro clearly has had less time invested in it and wasn't the lead platform as the PS4 maintains a rock solid 30 FPS, but the Pro with it's quick and easy frame buffer increase can dip a frame or two in water where the PS4 does not.

Asking how games might scale down to Series S I think is naive.

How Series X and Series S sell compared to each other will change the Xbox landscape over the next 7 years in my opinion.

Depending on sales ratio, the question could be how well can a Series X game scale up in theory (with the June Series X marketing interviews seeking to address that), and how will most developers do it in reality, with the finite resources at hand.

A lot of sweat is being lost over 10.3 vs 12.1 peak figures, but what might the average game look like between the two in reality if Series S is the lead next gen Xbox platform?

The most impressive real time interactive footage I've seen so far is still the Unreal Engine 5 demo, or the Horizon sequel.

Xbox needs to show what Series X means in reality, not only in numbers as they have done so far.
PlayStation have a track record of delivering in reality, even when the numbers aren't on their side.

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

I occasionally watch Dealer for a laugh to see the spin and then call him out with facts and educate in the comments lol...

He often says things along the lines of the xbox is the far superior hardware....

Its tough who to believe...

Devs says they are close..

Dealer says xbox is far superior and tweets about it being at least 40 fps better....



Who to believe....

I'm pretty sure that's dealers fapping rate and not frame rates he's talking about.

 

[geordiemp]

At the speed a CPU runs at, having to go get some data from RAM is like walking to the next building, where having it in your cache is like having the data you need in your room.

When you only have 8ms per frame (120 FPS) this kind of latency matters.

Bandwidth is like how big your pockets are, and latency is like how fast you run to go and get that data to stuff into those pockets.

It doesn't matter if you have massive pockets if the data turns up too late to get the frame out before 8ms has elapsed.

A system that needs to take less frequent trips to RAM because its caches are faster and don't get entirely invalidated (Coherency Engine) should see less frame drops and have a higher average frame rate as frame times get smaller and smaller.

High frame rate is critical for something like VR, and Sony may have specifically included Coherency Engines, cache scrubbers and be running the GPU as fast as they are doing all to aid latency so PS5 can deliver better VR than PS4 could.

From the wording of what Matt was saying, and from RGT's sources (no idea how reliable he is), it could be that PS5 CPU will spend less time waiting for a RAM fetch and be doing useful work more often as it either has a unified L3 cache between all cores like Zen3 architecture, or it manages the problems of cache coherency better.

The GPU will already be doing this, and Cerny did say that "one" of the jobs of the Coherency Engines was working with the GPU cache scrubbers, implying it also has a role to play on the CPU side, too.

It could be that XSX has the potential to push more pixels per frame, but PS5 has the potential to push more frames per second.

The relationship between both aren't linear exactly because of cache/RAM latencies.

PlayStations IO patent also has just as much emphasis on latency as it does on bandwidth, which is why so much of the pipeline is offloaded to fixed function accelerators. Low latency is down as a key requirement, just as much as high bandwidth is.

Great post, just wanted to add to it in that we should be thinking about frame time budget in terms of power, if you have say 16 ms (for a 60 FPS game) to do all the CPU and GPU as well as IO audio things you need to do in that 16 ms.

Lots of little things can slow down a system, imagine if the CPU has to use half a core to help with IO or compression, thats still steals the memory bandwidh TIME away from other jobs even if the CPU is not taxed.

Caches, scrubbing, IO anything that takes cycles and gets in the way of doing something else adds up.

Tim Sweeny tried to tweet that, its not about SSD speed, its about doing the things you need to do in the time allocated for a frame, and this is why ps5 was chosen for the uE5 demo. Its in black and white.

All of the power posts is about TF, texel shading, there is so much more to consider including how LEAN an API is. We know Microsoft specialises in abstraction layers, great for BC - its well published, but it costs cycles.

Its all about how many cycles needed to do what you need to do...a bit here a bit there....

So you start at 15 -18 % differential, then subtract all the other things Ps5 is hinted at doing faster with a 22 % fast clock and designed to remove latency - and which matt has also tweeted HINTS about from CPU side as well.

My gut is performance will be similar on 3rd party, and anyone thinking of a POWER gap will be disappointed - we have already heard destiny will be 4k60 on both, Valhalla will be 4k30.....and so it continues to sink in....

very .....slowly.

Most posters on PC clocks and GPU clock differences just dont seem to get it, on older RDNA1 or NVidia they compare standard vs boosted and maybe the logic is not there to do that. If anyone wanted to prove what 22 % clocks do without bottlenecks or latency issues, they would use a standard clock vs a 22 % downclock and then report back. , There would be a big difference, but nobody does that as it does not fit the narrative.they are pushing that wide is the only way

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

Wait for the audiobook

 

[Wraith Phantom]

so 4th week of July for Xbox game studios



did Greenberg actually said no fable or perfect dark?

So Xbox Studios go up against Ghost of Tsushima that week. If those reveal games don't look better than Ghost. Its going to be merciless banta. Merciless with the memes. Fable & Perfect Dark games exist be it pre alpha or CGI trailer. But the fact xbox "insiders" are not talking up games for July event is telling. Pre PS5 event had all kinds of game predictions & hype. Xbox July event however is meh & maybe. The Xbox "insiders" are not vocal about games in July, just more hardware talk. Man I hope you Xbox guys get quality game reveals.

As for August. That's a PS win all day. By that time Its going to be full PS5 marketing campaigns. Probably pre-orders then as well. And it wont stop at August as PS will surely be at the digital Tokyo Game Show. Its best Xbox don't even show up in August. IMO Xbox marketing has always been wrong. They should have followed Nintendo's marketing strategy. You don't see Nintendo trying to compete with PS with comparisons,head to head, silly narratives, TF,bigger numbers , all this try & get in front messaging, mind share bullshit.

Nintendo just caters to its fan base picks its spots around PS marketing days & they sell phenomenally well. Xbox however keeps trying to out Playstation, Playstation & fail horribly. If they just stopped console warring & focused on their own unique selling point instead of this master at none console warring. They would do better. Look at this 12Tf to 4tf mess.You went full console war and now trying to sell budget hardware. It's just looking goofing now. You don't stand on anything. Just seeing whats sticks & its bad look. Cause you'll do anything for a sell. I cant rock with anything for a sell & desperation. You cant trust people,brands like that. Each to their own i guess.

Hope you Xbox guys get quality game reveals. 12 TF didnt make you happy. Hope these July games do. I'll take anything that stops the FUD ,angry projection.Just so the tech talks can flow nicer in here.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So what happens with something like the Unreal Engine 5 tech demo? Something reduced to an average of 1440P at a stable 30 FPS on PS5, where the compute capability of the GPU isn't just used for painting more pixels, but for doing the bulk of the Nanite geometry data crunching and triangle work? Whatever GPU advantage Series X has over PS5 will only mean it sits at a slightly higher average dynamic resolution at best. Certainly not 4K and/or 60 FPS as the delta between the two systems isn't even approaching that significant.
What becomes of a game or project like that on Series S, if it is the starting point and lead platform that needs feature parity with Series X?
It would need new mesh assets entirely to even reach 1080P, which adds significantly more cost to the project and negates the savings offered by something like Nanite in the first place.
Project scope is set as much by budget (time/money) as it is by hardware.

There is a lot in the post, but the bit I am quoting is the important point for me.

Sure, if the Series X is going to be the 4k 60+fps machine, then a lower end Series S that targets 1080 and maybe 30fps makes total sense, especially when you consider out of the "must have new shiny thing" bubble a lot of us here are in, most real people aren't anywhere near getting a 4k TV yet (in my experience most people only buy a new TV when they move or their old one stops working).

But if you have games pushing stuff so much that they end up with a lower res or frame rate than 4k60 on the Series X, where does that leave the Series S then? Do we just end up with games dropping potentially to 720p instead?

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

I like making people scroll.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

I like making people scroll.

 

[geordiemp]

I like making people scroll.

You and @thicc_girls_are_teh_best

are in competition

 

[Darius87]

i've done some calculations about bottlenecks and ended up with diagram for both ps5 and x seriesx.

Spoiler

 

[geordiemp]

Apparently that UE5 demo is not GPU intensive, abuot same as fortnite at 60 FPS acording to EPIC.

Looks like its all about latency, doing things fast, and IO

That amazing UE5 tech demo was only as GPU-intensive as Fortnite

And this is seriously good news for the future of gaming performance

www.pcgamesn.com

But what about terrafloppies......?

 

[Fake]

Well I only watched part of the video but Red suspects that the XSX might have similar features.

What I find really interesting is how one of Sonys priorities was to eliminate latency in the system. I'm not very sure of the importance of latency but Red said that it's very important for high framerates.

Is Sony showed on slide about that AMD smartshift? If I recall right reading the AMD PDF the porpuse is to reduce latency, but I would imagine is not a easy task for the desktop space. Maybe with a OS like on consoles could be real.

 

[saintjules]

I saw this making the rounds on Twitter. Outside of the Minecraft Dungeons announcement, this post doesn't read like a fan-fic, and seems very plausible, IMO.

Does sound plausible. For me, the only interesting thing is HB2. I am curious to see what they did to Battletoads. The rest I'll have to just see for myself.

 

[saintjules]

Ps5 Teardown next month or closer to release date?

Would make a great counter to Xbox's event, but I assume in Sony's eyes, they can do it whenever they want and still get the mass response from viewers.

The Gamelab 2020 presser mentioned Console talk in August

Microsoft was said to have an event dedicated to Xbox Series X in July, and both MS and Sony are expected to tell more about their respective consoles in August, but this will undoubtedly be an interesting and surprising stop along the way. What do you think they will say about the new generation?

 

[bhunachicken]

Someone here once mentioned that Smartshift can execute in about 2ms.

That's actually quite a lot. If you're targeting 60fps, you need to account for that 2ms drop, reducing your frame budget to 14ms. If it's switching a lot, you're going to notice the hit.

But, I'm not sure how it works. I guess the developers has much more control over it than the system trying to intelligently guess how to shuffle power. It would be too unpredictable otherwise?

 

[saintjules]

so 4th week of July for Xbox game studios



did Greenberg actually said no fable or perfect dark?

He also updated it with a few bits.

 

[dimaveshkin]

Apparently that UE5 demo is not GPU intensive, abuot same as fortnite at 60 FPS acording to EPIC.

Looks like its all about latency, doing things fast, and IO

That amazing UE5 tech demo was only as GPU-intensive as Fortnite

And this is seriously good news for the future of gaming performance

www.pcgamesn.com

But what about terrafloppies......?

To be precise it's only about geometry rendering. There are other intensive tasks beside that like Lumen, volumetric effects, particles etc.