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[Hobbygaming]

Xbox still trying to figure out how games are made.

Microsoft:

 

[MayauMiao]

Won't they have to show their own tactics of their third party exclusives as well if they try this shit?

Maybe both will have to do that, and seeing how MS doing badly with third parties they may benefit this by learning how Sony did it..

 

[M1chl]

Will it be entertaining? That's the most important thing, most of the stuff MS do is entertainment outside of their games.

Like Craig, I love him and miss him

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Microsoft has always wanted a peep behind the scenes at PlayStation. They're gonna be shocked when they found out the secrete source is simply staying off twitter / instagram posting pics with your devs. And instead, just let the developers develop.

The Lawsuit is frivolous. I'm not aware of a law which compels any entity to give their direct rival a tour of their IP, accounts, and production schedule. That looks like desperation and I'll be surprised if MS gets any relevant info out of Sony.

Freudian slip?

 

[remember_spinal]

Phil wants to copy sonys homework

 

[quest]

Maybe both will have to do that, and seeing how MS doing badly with third parties they may benefit this by learning how Sony did it..

Or Microsoft gets all past current and future agreements on the table with the new FTC definition of a 2 competitor market it leaves Sony open to potiental abuse of market power lawsuits.

From the Unintended Consequences Dept.: Sony may live to regret the market definition and theory of harm in the Microsoft-ActivisionBlizzard merger context

As the saying goes, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Sony is the only vocal complainer over Microsoft's purchase of A...

www.fosspatents.com

 

[eastcoastkody]

time to put Lyin Jim Ryan on the stand

 

[BaneIsPain]

Ahh, the long-awaited “secret sauce” PS5 SSD discovery.
Wait a sec-

 

[MayauMiao]

Phil wants to copy sonys homework

 

[Pelta88]

Phil wants to copy sonys homework

Essentially this is how it's being perceived on gaming social media.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I'd say merge it with the other thread or at least put it in there rather than create it's own thread, but I'm not a mod.

I don't see Sony having an issue with this. I think there has been plenty said in public about how Playstation's pipeline and developer support works. The "secret" if there even is one is the execution and not the process IMO.

The problem I see with it is the principal of it all. MS, a "struggling" platform holder (this is seemingly how they are describing themselves in this whole process), basically trying to force ONE platform holder (but not others, i.e Nintendo, Valve etc.) to "show" their process, when MS should know what a successful production pipeline and content securement strategy looks like because...THEY DID IT WITH THE 360!!!

This is nothing more than trying to get confidential info (that MS has themselves but will fight their hardest to not reveal) without breaking laws. The principal of the subpoena is flakey and rather ridiculous, even if there is no "secret sauce" to it. Keep in mind this is the same company that had to do an internal review on TLOU2 to try figuring out why it worked as a game.

It's all common sense stuff Microsoft should know by now having been in the industry as a platform holder for over 20 years, and being involved with PC gaming for even longer than that. This is just a trap to get confidential info normally protected by NDA, and to do so without actually violating any laws. It seems rather scummy.

 

[Hendrick's]

i can see where they intended going with this. they want to 'prove' that sony is 'dominating' enough with their production line up, try hard to looks like the 'real' monoploy victim here.


but at same time it could embarrassed themself. when people start to compare studio production line up and output between these two company.

I think they are looking for info on 3RD party exclusive deals.

 

[balls of snow]

Who knew the real console wars are between the corps.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

The problem I see with it is the principal of it all. MS, a "struggling" platform holder (this is seemingly how they are describing themselves in this whole process), basically trying to force ONE platform holder (but not others, i.e Nintendo, Valve etc.) to "show" their process, when MS should know what a successful production pipeline and content securement strategy looks like because...THEY DID IT WITH THE 360!!!

This is nothing more than trying to get confidential info (that MS has themselves but will fight their hardest to not reveal) without breaking laws. The principal of the subpoena is flakey and rather ridiculous, even if there is no "secret sauce" to it. Keep in mind this is the same company that had to do an internal review on TLOU2 to try figuring out why it worked as a game.

It's all common sense stuff Microsoft should know by now having been in the industry as a platform holder for over 20 years, and being involved with PC gaming for even longer than that. This is just a trap to get confidential info normally protected by NDA, and to do so without actually violating any laws. It seems rather scummy.

Probably because that one platform holder has been defined by the FTC as their only genuine competitor and is also the most vocal opponent of the deal. It stands to reason that it should be them that opens their books to show the negative impact the acquisition would have on their business.

 

[Pelta88]

MS subpoenas Sony isn't something I was expecting. Seems like a move made in haste or frustration...

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Probably because that one platform holder has been defined by the FTC as their only genuine competitor and is also the most vocal opponent of the deal. It stands to reason that it should be them that opens their books to show the negative impact the acquisition would have on their business.

Maybe I misinterpreted what was mentioned, but the way I read it made it sound like they were asking for Sony's methodology and process for making their 1P games and how they assist 3P partners in making games they cofund/codevelop. Which are things MS themselves should know how to do conceptually, even if they may not be as able to perform them in practice.

But if it's actually in reference to what amounts Sony pays for 3P deals, or exclusive 3P content, and stuff like that, then I suppose that is fair game when the costs for that can be compared against their revenue cuts off the software & content sales, and such like. I guess though it would also include them wanting to know the budget costs for big marquee AAA games from Sony 1P teams, and Sony have said in the past that 3P revenue helps sustain the production of those types of games so this subpoena could work against Microsoft's case with all things considered. It is a gamble for them to request this info in all honesty.

Yeah tho, if it's THAT particular stuff, then I can dial it back a bit. I suppose that would be fair information to request, at least at some level.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Maybe I misinterpreted what was mentioned, but the way I read it made it sound like they were asking for Sony's methodology and process for making their 1P games and how they assist 3P partners in making games they cofund/codevelop. Which are things MS themselves should know how to do conceptually, even if they may not be as able to perform them in practice.

But if it's actually in reference to what amounts Sony pays for 3P deals, or exclusive 3P content, and stuff like that, then I suppose that is fair game when the costs for that can be compared against their revenue cuts off the software & content sales, and such like. I guess though it would also include them wanting to know the budget costs for big marquee AAA games from Sony 1P teams, and Sony have said in the past that 3P revenue helps sustain the production of those types of games so this subpoena could work against Microsoft's case with all things considered. It is a gamble for them to request this info in all honesty.

Yeah tho, if it's THAT particular stuff, then I can dial it back a bit. I suppose that would be fair information to request, at least at some level.

I'm not exactly sure what's been asked for, but for the purposes of their lawsuit defence, I would have thought their 'production pipeline' would be what games they have coming out, projections, etc. Not so much, how Sony actually make the games. I'm not sure tbh.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Please tell us how to make games then.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I'm not exactly sure what's been asked for, but for the purposes of their lawsuit defence, I would have thought their 'production pipeline' would be what games they have coming out, projections, etc. Not so much, how Sony actually make the games. I'm not sure tbh.

Well in that case, it should be rejected. MS LOVE leaks; getting their hands on Sony's release plans will give them a convenient way to leak that out through their litany of channels of "insiders" and that could have negative impact on planned reveals by Sony themselves, could even negatively affect their stocks (shareholders may not like plans being leaked like that).

Then MS could just claim that stuff got leaked without their knowledge, and there's not much that could be done after the fact. So yeah, that smells like a form of corporate espionage just with the cover of a legally enforced subpoena to get the desired info, IF it includes things like Sony having to provide their release schedule of 1P games, 3P exclusives set up etc.

 

[TropicanaTwista]

Look, I'm no expert in traditional law, bird law is more my thing, but I don't see how this is relevant? Like what does Sony's "pipeline" how to do with MS trying to buy the biggest gaming franchise (and more) in video game history?

When was the last time cod wasn't the biggest selling game of the year. Of course it would hurt any platform it's removed from. Not to mention how many Xbox live and ps plus subs it generates for both Sony and MS. I truly don't see what other first and third party games have to do with this, at all.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

Well in that case, it should be rejected. MS LOVE leaks; getting their hands on Sony's release plans will give them a convenient way to leak that out through their litany of channels of "insiders" and that could have negative impact on planned reveals by Sony themselves, could even negatively affect their stocks (shareholders may not like plans being leaked like that).

Then MS could just claim that stuff got leaked without their knowledge, and there's not much that could be done after the fact. So yeah, that smells like a form of corporate espionage just with the cover of a legally enforced subpoena to get the desired info, IF it includes things like Sony having to provide their release schedule of 1P games, 3P exclusives set up etc.

I mean, it's a bit of a tough one. Otherwise it could look like Sony say 'this deal will be devastating for us, source - trust me'. I agree, it would be a lot of sensitive information so I imagine there would be some pretty serious NDAs in place and if there were leaks, Sonny's lawyers would have a pretty good idea where they were from.

 

[clarky]

Sony doesn't need to show their exclusives to prove that losing Activision would massively hurt them long term.

All they have to do is look at the top NPD sellers every single year for like two decades LMFAO.

Yet they would still be totally fine with the great games they produce themselves. Of course it would hurt them but the FTC's job is not to protect the market leader as far as I am aware. LMFAO.

 

[DarkMage619]

Well in that case, it should be rejected. MS LOVE leaks; getting their hands on Sony's release plans will give them a convenient way to leak that out through their litany of channels of "insiders" and that could have negative impact on planned reveals by Sony themselves, could even negatively affect their stocks (shareholders may not like plans being leaked like that).

Then MS could just claim that stuff got leaked without their knowledge, and there's not much that could be done after the fact. So yeah, that smells like a form of corporate espionage just with the cover of a legally enforced subpoena to get the desired info, IF it includes things like Sony having to provide their release schedule of 1P games, 3P exclusives set up etc.

Last time I checked corporate espionage is illegal. Do you have any evidence that MS is out to break the law over just getting specific information from the largest opposition to their acquisition? Sony is claiming that MS owning Activision will prohibit them from being able to compete in the gaming industry.

I'd imagine they would jump at the opportunity to show the harm this acquisition would cause to their business. It is especially interesting seeing how God of War outsold CoD so it really calls into question the 'input' CoD is to their business.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

MS subpoenas Sony isn't something I was expecting. Seems like a move made in haste or frustration...

Standard corporate/legal processes, potentially legally enforceable peek under the competitor's hood for basically peanuts. Meanwhile you also get to discover and gather evidence against Sony's claim while seeing a roadmap or inner workings. There isn't anything hasty or out of frustration about it.

 

[bitbydeath]

Well Sony played a dick move to begin with so let’s see how much money they can throw at court trials

If MS’s plan is to keep everyone in court for the next 100+ years they’ve already lost.

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

Everyone on Neogaf right now.....

 

[clarky]

I'm not exactly sure what's been asked for, but for the purposes of their lawsuit defence, I would have thought their 'production pipeline' would be what games they have coming out, projections, etc. Not so much, how Sony actually make the games. I'm not sure tbh.

Thought that was pretty obvious as well. After all they are the ones claiming they are doomed if the deal goes through, so MS are just asking for receipts.

 

[feynoob]

This deal just doesn't stop producing clown moments.

 

[MScarpa]

Sony should buy EA Games and throw them the same garbage microsoft has been saying

EA is a worse purchase than Activision

 

[supernova8]

I mean why nurture existing Xbox studios to develop and push out high-quality games on schedule (cough, Everwild, Hellblade 2, Crackdown 3, State of Decay 3, Halo Infinite....Fable.... Perfect Dark?) when you can just chuck a bucket of cash at the big boys and get all their games?
(waiting for some whataboutism response)

 

[SenjutsuSage]

This was always the risk of sticking their necks out and claiming significant harm to the Playstation business if the transaction is allowed to proceed. And now Microsoft gets to legally claim and make court requests that Sony provides documentation that Microsoft believes will make Sony's claims look even more ridiculous than they already did. This is actually the reason some companies don't go too far when challenging certain mergers. Sony screamed bloody murder in every territory basically.

 

[remember_spinal]

I mean why nurture existing Xbox studios to develop and push out high-quality games on schedule (cough, Everwild, Hellblade 2, Crackdown 3, State of Decay 3, Halo Infinite....Fable.... Perfect Dark?) when you can just chuck a bucket of cash at the big boys and get all their games?
(waiting for some whataboutism response)

What about Final Fantasy 7 remake and Forspoken?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Last time I checked corporate espionage is illegal. Do you have any evidence that MS is out to break the law over just getting specific information from the largest opposition to their acquisition? Sony is claiming that MS owning Activision will prohibit them from being able to compete in the gaming industry.

I admit I might've read too much into the statement, but I guess it just depends on what MS are specifically requesting.

Thinking they want to know the costs of Sony's big marquee AAA games and what 3P sales revenue helps go towards their production & marketing. Also in what ways 3P deals help boost revenue for Sony and 3P publishers, and how that helps sustain the PlayStation model.

These are things Microsoft should ALREADY have an idea of IMHO considering they've been in this industry for 20+ years and operated similar with the 360 during that period, but on principal that particular info may not be overstepping boundaries, I suppose.

I'd imagine they would jump at the opportunity to show the harm this acquisition would cause to their business. It is especially interesting seeing how God of War outsold CoD so it really calls into question the 'input' CoD is to their business.

Agreed. But where are you getting GOWR "outsold" COD? In the debut month maybe, but COD's still the best-selling game of 2022 IIRC, and charted ahead of GOWR for PS consoles in December (but GOWR was very close to it placement-wise).

I'm guessing given Sony are helping MS to write a proper subpoena, they are probably fine with what's being asked and, you're right, it could prove their case just as much if not more than it proves Microsoft's. I guess we'll have to see what happens from here.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

MS is getting pretty desperate lol

 

[Lasha]

Enough to turn Sony into a third party publisher or a smaller much less ambitious first party manufacturer like Nintendo who simply couldnt compete with the big boys and left the console market altogether.

You mean Sega right? Nintendo is beating Sony without massive third party support or relying on significant economic rent.

 

[clarky]

MS is getting pretty desperate lol

Not sure how you arrived at that from this "article". Pretty standard stuff IMO. Sony says the deal will stop or limit their ability to complete, so they want to see what they have coming out exclusive wise in the future and use that evidence as an argument against. Hardly desperate.

 

[supernova8]

What about Final Fantasy 7 remake and Forspoken?

(Timed) exclusivity deals for specific titles ≠ completely buying out one of the biggest publishers

Let's not forget that Final Fantasy 13 came out simultaneously for Xbox 360 and PS3, as did Final Fantasy XV for Xbox One and PS4.
Let's also not forget that OG Final Fantasy XIV was supposed to come out for PS3 but was cancelled. It was meant to come out for Xbox 360 but there was some disagreement over servers with Microsoft.
Final Fantasy XIV Realm Reborn ended up coming out for Windows, PS3, PS4, and PS5. Presumably Microsoft wouldn't budge on whatever server dispute there was with 360, and that's probably why Xbox One never got a release either.

Square Enix was clearly happy to release Final Fantasy day and date on Xbox in the past. The fact that Sony was able to negotiate an exclusivity is likely not purely because of money, and I can say that because Microsoft objectively has way more money. It's likely because of relationships created and maintained, the same relationships that Microsoft seemingly fucked up to the point that Square Enix couldn't be bothered to put their premier game on Xbox.

For Final Fantasy 16 and 7 Remake Rebirth.... hey it could even be that SQueenix doesn't want to fuck around with having to make versions specifically targeting the Series S. None of that would be Playstation's fault, right?

I mention all that because in a generation or two maybe the tables will turn and Microsoft will be able to negotiate a bunch of exclusivity deals and that's fine. The battle rages on as it should. Such battles cannot rage if one or more sides go and buy up all the big publishers.

If you said something like "what about Bungie?" then I'd agree and I didn't see the point in Sony buying Bungie.

Also Forspoken... lol have you seen the reviews?

 

[Knightime_X]

Big OOF for Sony to keep Final Fantasy 7 remake from Xbox on top of many other games from MS.
But this is what happens.. oh well.

 

[Salz01]

I wish this would just be over. Let’s just get on with it.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

i will translate:

MS wants to know how sony makes AAA games and how much it cost because they have no idea how to do it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

MS is getting pretty desperate lol

You must not know how the game is played. You think this is desperation? It's actually common sense and tactical brilliance when Sony goes out and makes the kinds of bizarre claims it did about how important Call of Duty is to the very survival and competitiveness of Playstation, when in fact Microsoft has clearly stated it will not remove the game from Playstation consoles. It may not happen in this immediate case, but if and when this reaches Federal Court, Sony can't legally be making the types of claims and challenges to the deal they are in public and then at the same time escape a discovery process where they have to produce requested documentation necessary for Microsoft and Activision to challenge Sony's claims.

Opposition on the level Sony was engaging is a double-edged sword. Microsoft would have been foolish to NOT go to this length. Sony rolled the dice and now Microsoft has said, "Game On."

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Big OOF for Sony to keep Final Fantasy 7 remake from Xbox on top of many other games from MS.
But this is what happens.. oh well.

FF7 is not first party.

 

[CLW]

Simple Sony and their lawyers just come up with buzzwords that mean nothing and say there ya have it that’s how we do what we do

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Opposition on the level Sony was engaging is a double-edged sword.

You must not know how the game is played. the "double-edged sword" It's actually a 4D chess and tactical brilliance move by PlayStation.

 

[crunchyBiscuits]

This year's PlayStation Experience is proudly bought to you by today's sponsor: Microsoft

 

[Knightime_X]

FF7 is not first party.

Wonder if its limited to first party or anything considered exclusive.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Wonder if its limited to first party or anything considered exclusive.

"details of PlayStation’s game production pipeline"

 

[remember_spinal]

(Timed) exclusivity deals for specific titles ≠ completely buying out one of the biggest publishers

Let's not forget that Final Fantasy 13 came out simultaneously for Xbox 360 and PS3, as did Final Fantasy XV for Xbox One and PS4.
Let's also not forget that OG Final Fantasy XIV was supposed to come out for PS3 but was cancelled. It was meant to come out for Xbox 360 but there was some disagreement over servers with Microsoft.
Final Fantasy XIV Realm Reborn ended up coming out for Windows, PS3, PS4, and PS5. Presumably Microsoft wouldn't budge on whatever server dispute there was with 360, and that's probably why Xbox One never got a release either.

Square Enix was clearly happy to release Final Fantasy day and date on Xbox in the past. The fact that Sony was able to negotiate an exclusivity is likely not purely because of money, and I can say that because Microsoft objectively has way more money. It's likely because of relationships created and maintained, the same relationships that Microsoft seemingly fucked up to the point that Square Enix couldn't be bothered to put their premier game on Xbox.

For Final Fantasy 16 and 7 Remake Rebirth.... hey it could even be that SQueenix doesn't want to fuck around with having to make versions specifically targeting the Series S. None of that would be Playstation's fault, right?

I mention all that because in a generation or two maybe the tables will turn and Microsoft will be able to negotiate a bunch of exclusivity deals and that's fine. The battle rages on as it should. Such battles cannot rage if one or more sides go and buy up all the big publishers.

If you said something like "what about Bungie?" then I'd agree and I didn't see the point in Sony buying Bungie.

Also Forspoken... lol have you seen the reviews?

 

[NonPhixion]

Wow, it took Microsoft’s lawyers two attempts to get the subpoena right? That’s how you know they’re Microsoft’s lawyers.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

You must not know how the game is played. You think this is desperation? It's actually common sense and tactical brilliance when Sony goes out and makes the kinds of bizarre claims it did about how important Call of Duty is to the very survival and competitiveness of Playstation, when in fact Microsoft has clearly stated it will not remove the game from Playstation consoles. It may not happen in this immediate case, but if and when this reaches Federal Court, Sony can't legally be making the types of claims and challenges to the deal they are in public and then at the same time escape a discovery process where they have to produce requested documentation necessary for Microsoft and Activision to challenge Sony's claims.

Opposition on the level Sony was engaging is a double-edged sword. Microsoft would have been foolish to NOT go to this length. Sony rolled the dice and now Microsoft has said, "Game On."

You don't think Sony didn't account for being asked these kind of documents when they first publicly spoke out against the deal? I'm pretty sure they did. This isn't their first time in a court room (take that however you want ).

One of Sony's sticking points is that revenue from games like COD and the benefits their ability to bid for marketing rights to it for PS therein boosting revenue on the system as well as sales (which also increases revenue), allows them to create big games like HFW, TLOU2, GOWR etc. Providing the requested info could in fact just prove that even more, just depends on what they provide and as long as they provide what's specifically requested, obviously.

Yeah this could all end up with egg on Sony's face but it could also severely backfire for Microsoft in issuing the subpoena. Considering SIE actually not only alerted MS lawyers they did the subpoena wrong but were even willing to show them how to correctly issue it, if Sony wanted to run away from this, they could have started singing a different tune publicly and protested/stalled on the subpoena themselves.

So I guess we'll see what comes of this.