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[GHG]

The S maintains that the PC development baseline doesn't push forward as quickly as it would have with X/PS5 being the baseline.

Yep and we are witnessing the knock on effect in the GPU market as a result, just as I predicted:

It's the PC baseline I'm talking about.

If the mass market can get away with having 4TF GPUs for too long then that means the prices of the higher powered parts wont come down as quickly due to the lack of demand for advancement and innovation. That's why we typically see the graphics cards that coincide with the final couple of years of a console generation being a piss take, both in terms of prices and in terms of performance increases (see the RTX 2XXX series). The demand for mid and higher end parts dries up as no AAA console ports are pushing the boundaries anymore, they are designed around hardware that PC gamers already had years ago. Going from 90fps to 105 fps makes no difference for most people and is not a reason to upgrade.

If the baseline is 10tf (which will be around where the 3060 will sit) then it means the 3060 will be a card in high demand. That will be recognised and then for the 4XXX series of cards Nvidia will have a huge incentive to create a low end 4050 that is 10tf and very affordable. The pricing and perfomance level has a direct impact on the rest of the 4XXX series lineup. The 4060 needs to be significantly better than 10TF, so on and so on. Everyone wins.

If 4TF is the baseline it will lead to both Nvidia and AMD taking the piss as the generation goes on. They already have cards that hit that performance benchmark at reasonable prices, they will simply keep on recycling those cards and the mid/high end of the market will suffer for pretty much a whole generation.

If you watch the Nvidia event from today, they make several references that make it clear they are putting these cards up against next gen consoles. IMO that is where the motivation for pricing the 3070 has come from at the moment. They want to make it clear you can have better than next gen console performance for under $500.

How more people didn't see this I don't know. The only thing the Series S ultimately helps achieve is all round stagnation and I think that's what they wanted.

 

[Operations66]

I like the Series S because I live like a gypsy, and its small size makes it easily portable for me. Oh, well.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Processor: Intel i5 4690 / AMD FX 8350
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: Nvidia GTX 970 / RX 480 (4GB VRAM)

Are you kidding me? This is obviously an engine problem. Alot of devs are refusing to do actual development and upgrade their damn engine and blaming the hardware. So they are dragging around a dead engine to next gen and crying foul. Unbelieveable.

That's 12GB there champ.

Take it from the beloved insominac,

I see what the issue is with you.

Yep and we are witnessing the knock on effect in the GPU market as a result, just as I predicted:



How more people didn't see this I don't know. The only thing the Series S ultimately helps achieve is all round stagnation and I think that's what they wanted.

They would see it if it were the other brand who did this instead.

 

[Captain Toad]

Interesting insight from a Dev, so new games will all have to be made with Series S in mind even if the other consoles are better they can't fully utilize them
And he says they can't scale like on PC

This was obvious to many of us, which is why I hate that Xbox chose this path. It will be a bottleneck the entire generation.

 

[Topher]

They want us to ignore 99.9% of games and make excuses for devs who don't want to do what they are paid to do (development) and upgrade their engine. Makes no sense.



Processor: Intel I5 4690 / AMD FX 8350
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: Nvidia GTX 970 / RX 480 (4GB VRAM)

Are you kidding me? This is obviously an engine problem. Alot of devs are refusing to do actual development and upgrade their damn engine and blaming the hardware. Unbelieveable.

Except the devs are doing the work. Baldur's Gate 3 is coming to Xbox eventually. Now you can ignore the 20% disparity in required memory configuration that you yourself just copied into this thread, but that ultimately comes down to nothing more than willful ignorance.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Proof is in the games mate and Series S has been performing decently enough. It even achieved 60fps with Raytraced Global Illumination which is one of the most computationally expensive forms of raytracing bar pathtracing. That's simply not possible on last generation systems, so it is indeed a capable budget current gen console regardless what a vocal minority would have you believe.

Sure, but I'm not going to ignore the folks who create these things. That's not a simple minority on a gaming forum. Besides, both things can be true — it can be limiting and capable at the same time. A 20-year-old car is capable of A-B, doesn't mean it will do it as efficiently as a car built last year.

 

[Bogroll]

This was obvious to many of us, which is why I hate that Xbox chose this path. It will be a bottleneck the entire generation.

But it won't be for PS5 exclusives will it. I'm really looking forward to see what different games we have to play from last/first 3years of this gen.

 

[setoman]

That's 12GB there champ.

Except the devs are doing the work. Baldur's Gate 3 is coming to Xbox eventually. Now you can ignore the 20% disparity in required memory configuration that you yourself just copied into this thread, but that ultimately comes down to nothing more than willful ignorance.

So looks like you both ignored or didn't read my post.
Its interesting that while the talk of how consoles have unified memory and PC have split memory that isn't fully utilized is huge.
You guys don't take that into account here.

The game is most likely NOT using all the 8GB system ram as other applications on your system are always running. So the actual system requirement is like more like ~6 GB system ram, totaling ~10 GB RAM.

The fact that Series S has a super fast SSD with decompression I/O chip, direct storage, sampler feedback streaming, mesh shaders support and faster RAM than the PC requirement means if their engine actually took advantage of next gen features, they wouldn't even need 10 GB Ram.

We talk about Mark Cerny's presentation on needing less memory by taking advantage of Next Gen features yet when a dev fails to take advantage of any next gen features. Instead of pointing that out and addressing the devs. We are calling out the hardware?

 

[Banjo64]

Complex system that doesn't even have day/night cycles or dynamic weather.

You just mock Xbox because their own 'specialist engineering team' is assisting with this port, evidently can't sort it out, and you are ridiculing it as a basic game.

Which is fine by me, they clearly aren't anything special, but it's funny when you say it.

 

[Negotiator101]

Sure, but I'm not going to ignore the folks who create these things. That's not a simple minority on a gaming forum. Besides, both things can be true — it can be limiting and capable at the same time. A 20-year-old car is capable of A-B, doesn't mean it will do it as efficiently as a car built last year.

True, but let's not look at the negatives all the time when there are plenty positives. Yes some additional work is required maybe that's what's pissing off the developers who have aired their grievances about Series S, who knows?

Ultimately plenty developers have produced great work on the console and that can't be ignored.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Developers feel threatened by success of Series S, am assuming?

They don't want all console makers to follow suit.

That's your takeaway from this?

 

[Kerotan]

So AW2 held back by S confirmed?

Every multi platform game is. I said it from Day 1. Devs need to drop support for S.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So looks like you both ignored or didn't read my post.
Its interesting that the talk how Console have unified memory and PC have split memory that isn't fully utilized is huge.
Yet you guys don't take that into account here.

The game is most likely NOT using all the 8 system ram as the application on your system are also running. So the actual system requirement is like 6 GB system ram, totaling 10 GB RAM.

The fact that Series S has a super fast SSD with decompression I/O, direct storage, simpler feedback, mesh shaders support and faster RAM than PC requirement means if their engine actually took advantage of next gen features, they wouldn't even need 10 GB Ram.

We talk about Mark Cerny's presentation on needing less memory by taking advantage of Next Gen features yet when a dev fails to take advantage of any next gen features. Instead of pointing that out and addressing the devs. We are calling out the hardware?

The X and the S both have split memory performance pools. The S only having 8GB (or less) of useful memory for gaming. Since the 2GB pool is an anemic 56GB/s for background tasks.

And who's we? Lots of projection going on.

You have it all figured out. You and Alex.

 

[Topher]

So looks like you both ignored or didn't read my post.
Its interesting that while the talk of how consoles have unified memory and PC have split memory that isn't fully utilized is huge.
You guys don't take that into account here.

The game is most likely NOT using all the 8 system ram as the application on your system are also running. So the actual system requirement is like 6 GB system ram, totaling 10 GB RAM.

And 2GB of XSS is reserved for OS tasks which brings the availability down to only 8GB.

The fact that Series S has a super fast SSD with decompression I/O, direct storage, simpler feedback, mesh shaders support and faster RAM than PC requirement means if their engine actually took advantage of next gen features, they wouldn't even need 10 GB Ram.

We talk about Mark Cerny's presentation on needing less memory by taking advantage of Next Gen features yet when a dev fails to take advantage of any next gen features. Instead of pointing that out and addressing the devs. We are calling out the hardware?

Uh oh.........Xbox fans, he's talking about the magic of the SSD here......

 

[Banjo64]

They want us to ignore 99.9% of games and make excuses for devs who don't want to do what they are paid to do (development) and upgrade their engine. Makes no sense.



Processor: Intel i5 4690 / AMD FX 8350
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: Nvidia GTX 970 / RX 480 (4GB VRAM)

Are you kidding me? This is obviously an engine problem. Alot of devs are refusing to do actual development and upgrade their damn engine and blaming the hardware. So they are dragging around a dead engine to next gen and crying foul. Unbelieveable.

Take it from the beloved insominac, the PS5 were so fast they had to upgrade their engine to take advantage of it.
Note, if you don't take advantage of next gen features, you are dragging an old engine into the next gen. Your game will suck.
I mean even today no game other than UE5 games use mesh shaders (XS/PC) (primitive shader on PS5).

Its not the consoles, its the devs.

Except these same devs delivered a brilliant Switch port of Divinity 2 within 12 months - proving their technical proficiency.

 

[Negotiator101]

Every multi platform game is. I said it from Day 1. Devs need to drop support for S.

If you said it, must be true

 

[Trogdor1123]

Interesting, I always assumed it just scaled in the exact same way, even easier as it's just 2 sets of hardware

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

True, but let's not look at the negatives all the time when there are plenty positives. Yes some additional work is required maybe that's what's pissing off the developers who have aired their grievances about Series S, who knows?

Ultimately plenty developers have produced great work on the console and that can't be ignored.

It's holding back Series X which is the "real" next gen XBOX despite Microsofts rediculous backtracking about "how they consider it their Pro model".

This further proves Series S has been limiting what the X is able to do and therefore the negatives far outweigh any positives. Who knows how much damage this dynamic has truly been for Series X owners? It could very well be the reason for a game like Starfield not having a 60 fps mode or why Redfall still dont have one.

Microsoft has done tremendous damage to gaming this gen and this is just one of tve reasons. The mergers, the radical shift towards services, killing of the Halo franchise (at least for now), and forcing Crossplay on console gamers are all thinga that have had a net negative effect imo.

Any Series X owner should be pissed imo with how MS has been treating it.

 

[reinking]

So looks like you both ignored or didn't read my post.

Much like you are ignoring devs that are familiar with the situation? Some people are going to have to accept that the S is holding back (in this case by months) some titles on the Series consoles.

 

[Clear]

People really overlooked how severe the ram bus bandwidth cutbacks are on series S.

The fast area is marginally quicker than PS4 Pro, and the slow 2gb is borderline unusable being 1/8th of that found on PS5.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

The existence of series S has setback multiplats for the entire gen. Only morons in denial believe optimization changes anything.

And im seeing a lot of denial in this thread

 

[JTCx]

Microsoft sold their flunkies a bill of goods.

 

[Venom Snake]

 

[Hendrick's]

You just mock Xbox because their own 'specialist engineering team' is assisting with this port, evidently can't sort it out, and you are ridiculing it as a basic game.

Which is fine by me, they clearly aren't anything special, but it's funny when you say it.

I tried to make sense of your post but then saw it was you and gave up.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Erm that's exactly what they are doing. It's in the license contract,

So skip Xbox versions.

 

[setoman]

And 2GB of XSS is reserved for OS tasks which brings the availability down to only 8GB.



Uh oh.........Xbox fans, he's talking about the magic of the SSD here......

The X and the S both have split memory performance pools. The S only having 8GB (or less) of useful memory for gaming. Since the 2GB pool is an anemic 56GB/s for background tasks.

And who's we? Lots of projection going on.

You have it all figured out. You and Alex.

Just as I expected, you two are reading to reply rather than reading to understand. Which is why you assumed I was saying that XSS Gaming Memory use was 10GB.
If you actually read to understand you would see that I was saying that Baldur's Gate 3 just like almost all games released isn't using 75% of Next gen console features.

Again you can't claim that Mark Cerny was right and then turn around and ignore his statements.

Both Mark Cerny and MS emphasized that one of the reasons for their SSD/IO tech is to reduce memory footprint. So either its true universally or its a lie. Also Insomniac confirmed that you actually have to rearchitect your engine to take advantage of the next gen features. This is also confirmed by MS because they needed to release direct storage API on PC and yet still the game engine would need to be rearchitected to take advantage of the new APIs.

Gamers have this thing where they reason linearly rather than universally. Either its Larian's fault for not taking advantage of 75% of the console or its no developers fault for the lack of current gen games and this entire gen should be canceled.

You can't have it both way.

Here I will help you out, name me 3 games that uses mesh shaders / primitive shader. I will help you out: Remnant 2, Fortnite.
Your turn, what's the third? GO!

 

[Thirty7ven]

But there's no evidence that their low price scheme really helped them.

They are selling less consoles than last gen, with Series S's just shitting up shelves.

If they had gone purely with the X they'd probably have sold just as many if not more consoles IMO.

No redesign for cheaper materials, still on the same nm. They are losing quite a bit of money on HW specially with all the discounts on Series S.

Obviously it's MS and they can lose how much money they want but disappointment can't be denied. Series S as a gamble backfired. It's a bad console for the market and a bad console for MS, everyone lost.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Just as I expected, you two are reading to reply rather than reading to understand. Which is why you assumed I was saying that XSS Gaming Memory use was 10GB.
If you actually read to understand you would see that I was saying that Baldur's Gate 3 just like almost all games released isn't using 75% of Next gen console features.

Again you can't claim that Mark Cerny was right and then turn around and ignore his statements.

Both Mark Cerny and MS emphasized that one of the reasons for their SSD/IO tech is to reduce memory footprint. So either its true universally or its a lie. Also Insomniac confirmed that you actually have to rearchitect your engine to take advantage of the next gen features. This is also confirmed by MS because they needed to release direct storage API on PC and yet still the game engine would need to be rearchitected to take advantage of the new APIs.

Gamers have this thing where they reason linearly rather than universally. Either its Larian's fault for not taking advantage of 75% of the console or its no developers fault for the lack of current gen games and this entire gen should be canceled.

You can't have it both way.

Here I will help you out, name me 3 games that uses mesh shaders / primitive shader. I will help you out: Remnant 2, Fortnite.
Your turn, what's the third? GO!

You got it all figured out. Email Larian, Remedy, etc., they may be hiring.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Interesting insight from a Dev, so new games will all have to be made with Series S in mind even if the other consoles are better they can't fully utilize them
And he says they can't scale like on PC

MS's strategy to protect the Xbox Series S's honour by buying publishers that criticised it somewhat to get them to remove said comments (see Id) could be lucrative for said publishers. Quick need to open a game studio and dunk on the XSS .

 

[Topher]

Just as I expected, you two are reading to reply rather than reading to understand. Which is why you assumed I was saying that XSS Gaming Memory use was 10GB.

I found your source:

 

[Physiognomonics]

The gift that keeps on giving. From the start many of us said this thing and its lack of memory would cause problems and would hamper the whole generation. And it did (and still does). It was so obvious. Only the xbox activists couldn't see it.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Why would scaling on two fixed hardware consoles be harder than on PC?

 

[Onironauta]

Why would scaling on two fixed hardware consoles be harder than on PC?

It's just PR talk.
When the PC version runs like ass on lower end machines they can blame it on the hardware not being good enough. Console games have to be optimized for that specific hardware, so they don't have the same alibi in this case.

 

[geary]

We live in a world where some developers do their games with DLSS/FSR in mind and they done fucking care to optimize the game for native resolution.
Do you think they are excited to dev for XSS? The technical expertise is on decline and very few developers have actually competent people in their team.

 

[hyperbertha]

Possibly the most ambitious game this generation is coming on Series S, and need I remind you PS5 only Spider-Man 2 ain't setting the world alight mate. Oh but what's holding that back? the nonsense spreads like covid on here

The most ambitious game this gen came out in the switch and will probably remain that way for the entire gen.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

I found your source:

I was going to say his source was the voices emanating from his anus but this works.

 

[Astray]

The only thing the Series S ultimately helps achieve is all round stagnation and I think that's what they wanted.

Can you elaborate on that last part?

I don't really doubt that Phil and co are dumb enough to do this accidentally, but is there anything that they gain from causing stagnation intentionally?

 

[Negotiator101]

It's holding back Series X which is the "real" next gen XBOX despite Microsofts rediculous backtracking about "how they consider it their Pro model".

This further proves Series S has been limiting what the X is able to do and therefore the negatives far outweigh any positives. Who knows how much damage this dynamic has truly been for Series X owners? It could very well be the reason for a game like Starfield not having a 60 fps mode or why Redfall still dont have one.

Microsoft has done tremendous damage to gaming this gen and this is just one of tve reasons. The mergers, the radical shift towards services, killing of the Halo franchise (at least for now), and forcing Crossplay on console gamers are all thinga that have had a net negative effect imo.

Any Series X owner should be pissed imo with how MS has been treating it.

The framerate is the same on both consoles in Starfield and we've had plenty 60fps games on Series S enough times to know that's not a factor.

The most ambitious game this gen came out in the switch and will probably remain that way for the entire gen.

Stop with the nonsense, Zelda is a brilliant game but in size scope and scale it will pale in comparison to Starfield.

 

[Rien]

Gotta admit. This one made laugh harder than it should

 

[Physiognomonics]

The most ambitious game this gen came out in the switch and will probably remain that way for the entire gen.

What? The most ambitious and game of this gen is Elden Ring.

 

[GHG]

Can you elaborate on that last part?

I don't really doubt that Phil and co are dumb enough to do this accidentally, but is there anything that they gain from causing stagnation intentionally?

I believe it's 2-fold:

1. In the AAA space, big budgets and long development times don't sit well with their strategy of being all-in with gamepass. A market that has expectations for those types of titles makes it a very expensive endeavor for them since it means they either need to bankroll a ton of first party studios in order to maintain a steady flow of AAA games arriving on the service, or they need to pay 3rd party developers ridiculous sums of money to persuade them to launch 3rd party AAA games on the service and forgo a huge chunk of launch window sales as a result. What's best for them is if everyone just has expectations for AA and indie games, they are much easier to finance, manage and schedule in a way that you can ensure a steady flow of new content is being supplied to a sub service. When you hear the "is this sustainable?" talk from certain camps with regard to the AAA space, what they really mean is "is this sustainable for gamepass?", and the answer to that question is an emphatic "no".

Causing hardware to stagnate industry wide is one way of stopping all of this in its tracks. Increases in hardware capability has always been at the forefront of developers pushing the envelope and innovating, whether that's via gameplay systems or simply graphics/animations/production values/etc. Without the means to innovate there can be no innovation. Perpetual cross-gen suits them perfectly, expectations get lowered, people no longer expect anything to be bleeding edge and they can just farm out the types of games that fit their strategy while nobody blinks an eye because it's what everyone has gradually been conditioned to accept.


2. Secondary to all of this keeping the baseline spec as low as possible is good for them. A cheaper entry point to gamepass on the console side (Series S), and the knock-on effect of that is it forces the baseline to be lower than it usually would be at this point in a generation which means they have far more PC gamers (at the low-mid range end of the market) to try and sell gamepass to without the concern that some games on the service won't be compatible with the hardware in their machines.

"gaming for everyone" doesn't work if it means people need to purchase higher end hardware to experience the games they are putting on gamepass. They just want people to be able to subscribe and play everything on the service without any issues (if someone has performance issues in games they want to play they will be likely to unsubscribe), freezing/stagnating system requirements is the perfect way of achieving that.

 

[Slicker than your average]

Most of us said before the gen started that the S would hold the gen back. Here we are finally the end of cross gen and it's already holding full gen games back.

Damage control team incoming?

 

[THE DUCK]

So taking a game like Allan Wake Remastered, Remedy's latest release, your telling me it's easier to get this game to run on 2GB of VRAM and 8GB of system ram in Windows on a non-fixed platform vs a fixed platform with a fast SSD, fast decompression, and 8gb flexible and available of system/vram that runs at much faster speed and has a better processor than below min specs? Sure, so much easier.

• CPUi5-3340 or equivalent. CPUi7-3770 or equivalent.
• GPUNvidia GeForce GTX 960 or AMD Equivalent. 2GB VRAM. GPUNvidia GeForce GTX 1060 or AMD Equivalent. 4GB VRAM.
• RAM8 GB or higher. RAM16 GB.

 

[Slicker than your average]

Complex system that doesn't even have day/night cycles or dynamic weather.

Defence force has arrived! Can't you fanatics just take the L for once? Trying to downplay the game being basic because it won't run on your low spec plastic is very transparent.

Are modern day developers only discovering right now that you have to take into account the specs of the hardware you develop for ?

Someone give them a NES and ask them to make a game for it.

In your attempt to play down Devs who you think aren't taking the S into account, you shot yourself in the foot. They obviously are which is the problem. The S has 8gb memory for a start. That was normal in 2013.. ten years ago .

They can achieve a next gen game like BG3 with split screen coop on suprise suprise next gen consoles. Except they can't on the garbage spec one.

Engage your brain 82 and stop shilling. And call MS out for screwing over that gen for everyone or in this game Xbox gamers. You think this is going to be the only time Xbox gamers miss out? But you carry on blaming the Devs.

 

[Hendrick's]

Defence force has arrived! Can't you fanatics just take the L for once? Trying to downplay the game being basic because it won't run on your low spec plastic is very transparent.



In your attempt to play down Devs who you think aren't taking the S into account, you shot yourself in the foot. They obviously are which is the problem. The S has 8gb memory for a start. That was normal in 2013.. ten years ago .

They can achieve a next gen game like BG3 with split screen coop on suprise suprise next gen consoles. Except they can't on the garbage spec one.

Engage your brain 82 and stop shilling. And call MS out for screwing over that gen for everyone or in this game Xbox gamers. You think this is going to be the only time Xbox gamers miss out? But you carry on blaming the Devs.

First off, eat a bag of dicks and fuck off with your personal attacks. Second off, I'm not defending anything. I'm simply challenging whether BG3 truly had the complexity that would cause these sorts of issues. If it's co-op fine, but I just don't see the complexity being touted.

 

[Physiognomonics]

So taking a game like Allan Wake Remastered, Remedy's latest release, your telling me it's easier to get this game to run on 2GB of VRAM and 8GB of system ram in Windows on a non-fixed platform vs a fixed platform with a fast SSD, fast decompression, and 8gb flexible and available of system/vram that runs at much faster speed and has a better processor than below min specs? Sure, so much easier.

• CPUi5-3340 or equivalent. CPUi7-3770 or equivalent.
• GPUNvidia GeForce GTX 960 or AMD Equivalent. 2GB VRAM. GPUNvidia GeForce GTX 1060 or AMD Equivalent. 4GB VRAM.
• RAM8 GB or higher. RAM16 GB.

The remedy dev just twitted Xbox S/X scale differently than PC. The details are probably NDAed.

 

[GHG]

The remedy dev just twitted Xbox S/X scale differently than PC. The details are probably NDAed.

Whatever the details are it's pretty clear they are more complicated than "move a few sliders around" and "flip a switch".

Those were good times.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Whatever the details are it's pretty clear they are more complicated than "move a few sliders around" and "flip a switch".

Those were good times.

And then they got mad when people said the XSX is just an easy brute force for the S.

 

[GHG]

And then they got mad when people said the XSX is just an easy brute force for the S.

If you want a laugh have a read through this thread:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bloomberg-microsoft’s-xbox-game-plan-has-big-problems.1565425

 

[twilo99]

How more people didn't see this I don't know. The only thing the Series S ultimately helps achieve is all round stagnation and I think that's what they wanted.

That's really far out ser