MasterCornholio
Member
I'll agree that they went with different strategies to hit lower price points. Microsoft went with a much weaker system while Sony simply removed the disk drive.
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Circana (NPD) Hardware Sales for 2022 - NSW 5830k | PS5 5660k | XBS 4480k
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
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I'll agree that they went with different strategies to hit lower price points. Microsoft went with a much weaker system while Sony simply removed the disk drive.
ByWatterson
Member
Wouldn't Biden be a Republican if he wasn't the exact opposite of that?
MisterXDTV
Member
Not it isn't
That's like saying that a RTX 4090 targets the same customers of a 4060 because they are both NVIDIA Ada Lovelace cards....
You compare in the same spec and price segment
PS5 vs Series X
That's apples to apples
Series S was made by MS to boost sales combining both consoles.
They should have killed Sony in 2022 as PS5 hasn't been available widely until the last quarter....
And instead they finished beaten also by Nintendo with a 2017 (portable) hardware
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Woopah
Member
Yes I think MS' strategy was to undercut Sony with the Series S model, and they weren't expecting the PS5 Digital model to be so competitively priced.
Nintendo has rode this mentality all the way to the bank. At the end of the day, they're competing for your dollars and mindshare. Doesn't matter how they accomplish that so long as they do.
Woopah
Member
Who is "you" in this situation? Because spec and price have never been a factor in the comparisons/tracking Circana does. They compared dedicated video game devices.
As you yourself point out they are comparing Xbox Series to Switch, which have very different specs.
MisterXDTV
Member
I wasn't: I was just pointing out that Xbox with 2 consoles got beaten in sales by a VERY old portable console
But I don't consider Xbox competing with Nintendo, just like Sony isn't...
Still, MS should have dominated this (skewed) chart and somehow they finished LAST, once again.
And some people here are calling it a success
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Robb
Gold Member
How could you not? Do you think Sony doesn't care they're being obliterated in Japan? Had Nintendo not been a thing Sony would be crushing it over there as Xbox is pretty much nonexistent.
MisterXDTV
Member
Toyota sells a lot more cars than Ferrari: are they competitors?
Robb
Gold Member
Yes.
MisterXDTV
Member
That's why you don't get it....
Robb
Gold Member
There's not much to get tbh. The answer is very clear cut. Doesn't matter that one is high-end and the other isn't.
Luigi Mario
Member
The most surprising thing about these numbers is that the 3DS still managed to sell 200K in 2020.
Woopah
Member
It's a fair chart comparing the different competing platforms, similar to how pretty much every other professional tracker does it. It's not skewed.I wasn't: I was just pointing out that Xbox with 2 consoles got beaten in sales by a VERY old portable console
But I don't consider Xbox competing with Nintendo, just like Sony isn't...
Still, MS should have dominated this (skewed) chart and somehow they finished LAST, once again.
And some people here are calling it a success
I agree with you that MS had a great opportunity to come 2nd in the US in 2022 (maybe even first) but they squandered it with a lack of exclusive content and so came 3rd behind Nintendo and Sony.
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Tiago Rodrigues
Member
This is last year when Sony could barely produce the amount of units needed.
This current year will be a bloodbath
akaFullmetal
Member
Microsoft putting a fight for good ole USA. Switch still doing great. Sony is ramping up every year.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I seriously wonder if Microsoft can get away with not putting out a rival to the PS5 Pro.
If the PS5 Pro is uniquely the best console to play games on and the PS5's price point is the same or cheaper than the XSX, Microsoft is going to be in a difficult sandwich, not aided by people's lack of interest in the XSS.
As more people buy 4KTVs (over 60% of US smart tv owners have a 4KTV), the XSS is less and less appealing. Given the cost of games the price advantage of the XSS is almost nonexistent, especially if you look at the carbon black XSS.
50 dollars more and you can get a PS5 Digital. That's not even the price difference of one game and you get a much better console...
If the PS5 Pro is uniquely the best console to play games on and the PS5's price point is the same or cheaper than the XSX, Microsoft is going to be in a difficult sandwich, not aided by people's lack of interest in the XSS.
As more people buy 4KTVs (over 60% of US smart tv owners have a 4KTV), the XSS is less and less appealing. Given the cost of games the price advantage of the XSS is almost nonexistent, especially if you look at the carbon black XSS.
50 dollars more and you can get a PS5 Digital. That's not even the price difference of one game and you get a much better console...
Luigi Mario
Member
This paints a clearer picture of the hardware situation and as many have already speculated, Xbox Series numbers are indeed down compared to the Xbox One in their most important market.
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MasterCornholio
Member
The new Series S model is kind of strange especially when compared to the PS5 DE. Makes me wonder if they planned it on being priced so closely with the PS5.
It can be true that the PS5 DE caught them off guard.
MasterCornholio
Member
I really find it hard to believe that Microsoft won't have a competitor to the PS5 Pro. I'm fully expecting one from them to be honest.
demigod
Member
Let me know when a ferrari is cheap as a toyota.
MisterXDTV
Member
That was exactly my point: thank you!
Mibu no ookami
Banned
It's a double-edged sword though.
If they do, they'll have to commit to THREE different skus (the higher of which will be held back by the Series S).
There are also difficulties in marketing three skus and the manufacturing bottleneck in doing so.
MisterXDTV
Member
Exactly, they are not selling the two consoles they are making right now...
Why should they make a THIRD one???
Where is the demand?
Mibu no ookami
Banned
If they come out with a XSX Pro, I would anticipate at the very least they'd discontinue the manufacturer of new Series S.
MisterXDTV
Member
Would they kill support for it after selling it as: "Same as Series X, but at 1440p".... ???
Good luck with that
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I think depending on the price and specs of the PS5 Pro, you truly risk losing hardcore gamers semi-permanently.
When you look at GTA5 and people look at what system plays it at its best, it'll be clear that it is the PS5 Pro. As people build their digital libraries, they are going to be more locked into one ecosystem over another. The inability to compete now can have a direct impact on the next generation. What people buy this generation has the largest impact on what they will buy in the next generation.
That wasn't the case with the PS2 going into the PS3, especially as they eschewed backward compatibility, not to mention the lack of enhancements.
But you have friends lists, digital libraries, control scheme preferences, 1st party titles that people grow accustomed to...
Having no competitor to PS5 Pro will ultimately be a mistake, but it might be a mistake they've already boxed themselves into.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
You'd still have to support it, but you don't need to make new hardware. By moving away from manufacturing the Series S, they could focus on directly competing with and marketing against the PS5 and PS5 Pro.
Luminoth-4545
Member
Looking back at these records it is incredible how successful the DS and Wii were during 2008, 2009 and 2010. These yearly and monthly records may never be beaten.
Top 15 Record NPD years
2009: NDS - 11.19 million
2008: Wii - 10.17 million
2008: NDS - 9.95 million
2009: Wii - 9.59 million
2020: NSW - 8.98 million
2010: NDS - 8.58 million
2007: NDS - 8.43 million
2002: PS2 - 8.39 million
2003: GBA - 7.78 million
2021: NSW - 7.61 million
2011: XB360 - 7.24 million
1999: GBC - 7.21 million
1998: PS1 - 7.11 million
2004: GBA - 7.08 million
2010: Wii - 7.07 million
Top 15 Record NPD months
Dec 2009: Wii - 3.81 million
Dec 2009: NDS - 3.31 million
Dec 2008: NDS - 3.04 million
Dec 2002: PS2 - 2.69 million
Dec 2010: NDS - 2.51 million
Dec 2007: NDS - 2.47 million
Dec 2010: Wii - 2.36 million
Dec 2003: GBA - 2.26 million
Dec 2008: Wii - 2.15 million
Dec 2002: GBA - 2.14 million
Dec 2020: NSW - 2.12 million
Dec 2019: NSW - 2.08 million
Dec 2004: GBA - 2.06 million
Dec 2001: PS2 - 1.95 million
Dec 2003: PS2 - 1.93 million
Note: missing GBC monthly data. XB360's 2011 data is missing, XB360's Dec 2010 was 1.86 million and because 2011 was XB360's peak year it's Dec 2011 may have been higher.
Here are the crazy numbers from 2008, 2009 and 2010, taken from InstallBase.
Console Full Year Results: 2008
Console Full Year Results: 2009
Console Full Year Results: 2010
Top 15 Record NPD years
2009: NDS - 11.19 million
2008: Wii - 10.17 million
2008: NDS - 9.95 million
2009: Wii - 9.59 million
2020: NSW - 8.98 million
2010: NDS - 8.58 million
2007: NDS - 8.43 million
2002: PS2 - 8.39 million
2003: GBA - 7.78 million
2021: NSW - 7.61 million
2011: XB360 - 7.24 million
1999: GBC - 7.21 million
1998: PS1 - 7.11 million
2004: GBA - 7.08 million
2010: Wii - 7.07 million
Top 15 Record NPD months
Dec 2009: Wii - 3.81 million
Dec 2009: NDS - 3.31 million
Dec 2008: NDS - 3.04 million
Dec 2002: PS2 - 2.69 million
Dec 2010: NDS - 2.51 million
Dec 2007: NDS - 2.47 million
Dec 2010: Wii - 2.36 million
Dec 2003: GBA - 2.26 million
Dec 2008: Wii - 2.15 million
Dec 2002: GBA - 2.14 million
Dec 2020: NSW - 2.12 million
Dec 2019: NSW - 2.08 million
Dec 2004: GBA - 2.06 million
Dec 2001: PS2 - 1.95 million
Dec 2003: PS2 - 1.93 million
Note: missing GBC monthly data. XB360's 2011 data is missing, XB360's Dec 2010 was 1.86 million and because 2011 was XB360's peak year it's Dec 2011 may have been higher.
Here are the crazy numbers from 2008, 2009 and 2010, taken from InstallBase.
Console Full Year Results: 2008
| Month | Wii | Xbox 360 | PS3 | PS2 | NDS | PSP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| January | 274,000 | 230,000 | 269,000 | 264,000 | 251,000 | 230,000 |
| February | 432,000 | 255,000 | 281,000 | 352,000 | 587,600 | 243,100 |
| March | 721,000 | 262,000 | 257,000 | 216,000 | 698,000 | 297,000 |
| April | 714,000 | 188,000 | 187,000 | 124,000 | 414,800 | 192,700 |
| May | 675,000 | 187,000 | 209,000 | 133,000 | 452,600 | 182,300 |
| June | 667,000 | 219,000 | 406,000 | 189,000 | 783,000 | 337,400 |
| July | 555,000 | 205,000 | 225,000 | 156,000 | 608,000 | 222,000 |
| August | 453,000 | 195,000 | 185,000 | 144,000 | 518,300 | 253,000 |
| September | 687,000 | 347,000 | 232,000 | 174,000 | 536,800 | 238,100 |
| October | 807,000 | 371,000 | 190,000 | 136,000 | 491,000 | 193,000 |
| November | 2,040,000 | 836,000 | 378,000 | 206,000 | 1,570,000 | 421,000 |
| December | 2,150,000 | 1,440,000 | 726,000 | 410,000 | 3,040,000 | 1,020,000 |
| Total | 10,175,000 | 4,735,000 | 3,545,000 | 2,504,000 | 9,951,100 | 3,829,600 |
| Life to Date | 17,545,000 | 13,886,000 | 6,791,000 | 43,400,000 | 27,512,000 | 14,321,000 |
Console Full Year Results: 2009
| Month | Wii | Xbox 360 | PS3 | PS2 | DS | PSP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| January | 679,000 | 309,000 | 203,000 | 101,000 | 510,800 | 172,300 |
| February | 753,000 | 391,000 | 276,000 | 131,000 | 588,000 | 199,000 |
| March | 601,000 | 330,000 | 218,000 | 112,000 | 563,000 | 168,000 |
| April | 340,000 | 175,000 | 127,000 | 172,000 | 1,040,000 | 116,000 |
| May | 290,000 | 175,000 | 131,000 | 117,000 | 633,500 | 100,400 |
| June | 362,000 | 241,000 | 165,000 | 153,000 | 766,500 | 163,500 |
| July | 253,000 | 203,000 | 122,000 | 108,000 | 538,900 | 122,800 |
| August | 277,000 | 215,000 | 210,000 | 106,000 | 552,900 | 140,300 |
| September | 463,000 | 353,000 | 492,000 | 146,000 | 524,200 | 190,400 |
| October | 507,000 | 250,000 | 321,000 | 118,000 | 457,600 | 174,600 |
| November | 1,260,000 | 820,000 | 710,000 | 203,000 | 1,700,000 | 293,900 |
| December | 3,810,000 | 1,310,000 | 1,360,000 | 333,000 | 3,310,000 | 654,700 |
| Total | 9,595,000 | 4,772,000 | 4,335,000 | 1,800,000 | 11,185,400 | 2,495,900 |
| Life to Date | 27,140,000 | 18,658,000 | 11,126,000 | 45,164,000 | 38,697,000 | 16,817,000 |
Console Full Year Results: 2010
| Month | Wii | Xbox 360 | PS3 | PS2 | NDS | PSP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| January | 466,000 | 333,000 | 277,000 | 42,000 | 422,000 | 100,000 |
| February | 398,000 | 422,000 | 360,000 | 102,000 | 613,000 | 133,000 |
| March | 558,000 | 338,000 | 314,000 | 118,000 | 701,000 | 120,000 |
| April | 277,000 | 185,000 | 181,000 | 44,000 | 442,000 | 66,000 |
| May | 335,000 | 195,000 | 154,000 | 33,000 | 384,000 | 59,000 |
| June | 423,000 | 452,000 | 305,000 | 61,000 | 511,000 | 121,000 |
| July | 254,000 | 444,000 | 214,000 | 25,000 | 398,000 | 84,000 |
| August | 244,000 | 357,000 | 226,000 | 76,000 | 343,000 | 79,000 |
| September | 254,000 | 484,000 | 312,000 | 60,000 | 403,000 | 107,000 |
| October | 232,000 | 325,000 | 250,000 | 33,000 | 342,000 | 75,000 |
| November | 1,270,000 | 1,374,000 | 530,000 | 81,000 | 1,508,000 | 289,000 |
| December | 2,360,000 | 1,860,000 | 1,210,000 | 75,000 | 2,512,000 | 429,000 |
| Total | 7,071,000 | 6,769,000 | 4,333,000 | 750,000 | 8,579,000 | 1,662,000 |
| Life to Date | 34,211,000 | 25,427,000 | 15,459,000 | 45,914,000 | 47,276,000 | 18,478,000 |
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Robb
Gold Member
Man, NDS was a freaking monster.
Sojiro
Member
Think we will see a big permanent price drop on the Switch soon? I would think the Switch would get one before Nintendo officially starts talking about number 2.
Woopah
Member
I don't think this comparison is very fair to Sony. Their ambition is not to be a niche brand only for the super wealthy, while Nintendo is a far more popular brand that consistently and vastly outsells them.
Sony sees the PlayStation brand as a direct competitor to the Nintendo and Xbox brands. They want to sell more than the other 2.
Yeah I think their aim was for the Series S to be the cheapest way to play next gen games.
Xbox One and Switch have three models so, while it does bring challenges it is perfectly possible
El Pistolero
Banned
Starfield is one hell of a test for MS. It will be the biggest exclusive for the Xbox family, outside of the next ES, provided the latter drops during this generation. If the impact on sales is minimal, or very brief (sales surge around its release date, and crater a month or two later), then there is probably nothing MS could do to seriously compete with Sony.
MasterCornholio
Member
And not having one would look bad for them. Plus they lose what little power advantage they have.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Yeah, that's why I described it as a double-edged sword. It's basically an option to pick the least of two bad options. I think personally they should come out with a step-up model and cease production on the S.
I don't think you can concede the power advantage conversation outright.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Not sure the Xbox One is a model to stand up as an example to follow.
The Switch is very different. Not only is it already a hybrid system, it has no other handheld competitors. Also, the models run the exact same software at the same spec, so not really analogous to running 3 different specs.
MisterXDTV
Member
No, they don't have 3 different hardware specs/performance levels
Xbox One S is a simple revision of Xbox One
Hardware inside the Switch has been always the same since Day 1 in 2017 (Tegra X1 chip)
You don't understand the difference between SKUs and hardware specs....
That's why you think Series S and Series X are the same console.....
Woopah
Member
They said they are not planning a price cut this fiscal year, and their Q1 performance won't change their mind about that.
If sales start dipping before Mario Wonder comes out they may do a price drop then, but I think a price drop next year is possible.
I don't see how that's feasible. They'd be asking developers to make software for a system they don't sell. That's not gonna go well. And they won't allow the devs to skip it since then they'd have law firms lining up to sue them for lying to buyers of the S.
MS would expect Sony to make a Pro console before the systems even released and they would not let them ride the second half of the generation uncontested. They went out of their way to have "The most powerful console" with the X, to a point where they cannot cost cut the thing and make a profit off of it. Besides, development would have started before MS would seen the poor sales of 2023. In fact for the first 1.5-2 years they might have gotten the opposite idea.
I think the simple answer is that they will have 3 SKUs for the devs to juggle and they don't care.
MisterXDTV
Member
I mean even if they drop the price, I don't know how many people would buy 2017 hardware in 2024 with new hardware just around the corner
demigod
Member
What exactly is your point? Toyota and Ferrari prices are by far apart whereas an oled switch is only $50 less than a ps5 de.
I think it's straight forward with these. They make the game for the S and don't bother with the OG One. Does it run at 30fps on the One S? Then it will occasionally drop to 26 fps on the One. So what?
For the Switch, it's two modes: Docked and Undocked. The Portable-only Switch runs exclusively on the Undocked mode and that's that. And no one really cares how games run on the Switch. Performance is not its appeal and the customer knows it.
Woopah
Member
I was purely speaking about the supply chain challenges around having 3 different models, which do exist but are not impossible to overcome.
For the actual software developers, then yes having to programme for 3 different specs does make things more challenging.
I understand that sometimes different SKUs have different hardware specs, and sometimes different SKUs have the same hardware specs.
If MS does come out with a more powerful Xbox Series, it will still be an Xbox Series. Likewise if Sony comes out with a a more powerful PS5, it will still be a PS5.
MisterXDTV
Member
The point is that Sony and Nintendo are targeting different market segments just like Ferrari and Toyota.
High performance console VS casual/portable console
They don't compete DIRECTLY against each other...
I mean Jim Ryan himself said this in the Activision FTC hearing....
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Woopah
Member
To clarify, I was speaking about the challenges for a console manufacturer, not a software developer.
On the software side, yes there are added complexities.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Exactly. Not many people have realized it, but Microsoft has put itself in a box, launching Series S and Series X at the same time.
Now, if they don't do a Pro, PlayStation will undisputedly have the power narrative.
If they do a Pro, they will end up with 3 SKUs + PC for devs to make their games for, as well as a new console in a series that hasn't been selling well at all and incurs up to $200 loss for every unit it does sell. Moreover, when the next cross-gen period rolls out, Xbox devs will be making games for:
- PC
- Xbox Series S
- Xbox Series X
- Xbox Series Pro
- Xbox Series Ss (next-gen)
- Xbox Series Xx (next-gen)
Luminoth-4545
Member
Microsoft discontinued it in late 2020, it's quite hard to sell Xbox One's when their no longer being manufactured.