Digital Foundry: Inside The New Forza Motorsport: Turn 10's Radical Technology Revamp

Gaiff said:
There are things like self reflections that don't show up in non-RT mode but that's basically impossible to see while racing.
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So RT wastes probably a ton of ressources to force some photo mode features into the actual game.

I guess I understand why they do it, a jab towards GT7, and being able to say "our game has RT even in game". But it makes just no sense with either console.
RT in general should only be done by some games that have plenty of room because of some specific simpler art style (or ancient stuff like Quake2) and sideprojects by engine teams as tech demos to be ready when the hw actually is. Any game that wants to squeeze the best solution out of the current hw better stays away from RT for now. Even 4090 struggles with RT stuff when doing it a bit more like it is supposed to be, so no way any console is ready.

I also wonder if some games don't artificially make old gen tech look worse. Some reflections I saw in RTX off comparisons looked imho worse than what PS4 is able to do. Puddles looked awesome since years, mirroring nonsense but not really super obvious, and now suddenly its again a blurry mess like in PS3 days?
 
Gaiff said:
You won't be able to tell at that distance. It's a fast moving cars and the reflections are changing every millisecond. If you do stop and take a closer look at the reflections, you will be able to tell the differences. There are things like self reflections that don't show up in non-RT mode but that's basically impossible to see while racing.
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crackajack said:
I also wonder if some games don't artificially make old gen tech look worse. Some reflections I saw in RTX off comparisons looked imho worse than what PS4 is able to do. Puddles looked awesome since years, mirroring nonsense but not really super obvious, and now suddenly its again a blurry mess like in PS3 days?
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Control had these very issues with reflective surfaces and even textures. Less investment into rasterization by leaning on the RTX crutch. Performance be damned.
 
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It's nice to see the developers justify their choices and explain things, but fundamentally this looks worse than Forza Horizon 5 by a significant margin.

The reflections are blurry, it's got a weird washed out filter over it (maybe HDR content translating to SDR?), its shaders look flat/ lack contrast, the textures don't pop at all, and it doesn't look like its rendering at a high enough native resolution.

I mean you can't even make the argument that this game is going for a more realistic looking aesthetic as it looks cartoonier and more stylised than Forza Horizon 5 does. Direct comparisons with Horizon 5 will be a bloodbath I fear.
 
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DeepEnigma said:
But think of the console war engagement it will bring to them!
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Alternatively, he wants to do it in November so it doesn't affect the hype push for release, because it doesn't really hold up.
ShakenG said:
Trying not to nitpick turk but i absolutely hate those sparks. Ive never seen a car do that before in that manner.
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Essentially Forza is more towards the arcade end of the simcade scale so it's not that big a deal, add some razzle dazzle if you are going more for the casual fun experience.
 
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Mister Wolf said:
RT is pretty worthless in a racing game. These developers need to understand that if they are not going to use it for RT Global Illumination then they shouldn't even bother using it at all.
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Nothing more baffling in tech or gaming than seeing people complain about options they can easily ignore.
 
ShakenG said:
Tracks RT mirror - Trackside detail in reflection.
Cars RT mirror - cars in reflection.

??
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the previous Forza games already reflect their surroundings without needing RT to do it. And likewise you can see the reflection of cars on wet roads. I know it's not as technically clever or accurate but the illusion is certainly good enough for me, especially if you just play the game rather than pause it to pixel peep.
 
I'm more of a Forza Horizon fan, but it will be nice to try this out on PC. So far they've confirmed DLSS, FSR 2.2, and RTGI for PC. It would be nice to eventually get DLSS 3 FG. We'll see if they update it later.
 
Elysium44 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the previous Forza games already reflect their surroundings without needing RT to do it. And likewise you can see the reflection of cars on wet roads. I know it's not as technically clever or accurate but the illusion is certainly good enough for me, especially if you just play the game rather than pause it to pixel peep.
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Personally, i agree with you. A mix of cube maps and SSR should be more than enough. But was just trying to explain what "RT trackside mirror" might mean. But for PC gamers, no harm in pushing for the extra bells and whistles.
 
ShakenG said:
Personally, i agree with you. A mix of cube maps and SSR should be more than enough. But was just trying to explain what "RT trackside mirror" might mean. But for PC gamers, no harm in pushing for the extra bells and whistles.
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No harm in pushing on consoles if there is headroom, either.

There's a 4K/60 option without RT that'll probably be more closer to 2160p than the RT version as well, for those who want it.
 
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DeepEnigma said:
But think of the console war engagement it will bring to them!
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Hang on….. I thought there was a ceasefire after the ABK buy out?…I thought we all agreed to play nice or Microsoft will buy gearbox from embraced group? … fine…. I knew the peace could only last so long. The ceasefire is over…. To war!



martin sheen swamp GIF


Ok I'm just being dramatic now. 😂😂😂
 
Digital Foundry: Deep Inside The Refreshingly New Heralded Forza Motorsport: The Renowned Turn 10's Amazingly Radical Technology Revamp: The One Astounding Video To Rule Them All
 
Mister Wolf said:
RT is pretty worthless in a racing game. These developers need to understand that if they are not going to use it for RT Global Illumination then they shouldn't even bother using it at all.
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I agree. Though part of me thinks I'll still try out the performance RT mode often enough, but yeah I'll probably not notice it much while actually racing. To focused on track position and race craft to look at my car on the reflections other people cars….. besides….. I won't see anybodys cars in front of me by lap 2. I play racing games better than anybody so all I see is cars in the rear view. Maya sell just give me a more detailed rear view mirror as I'll see cars in that more often than next to, or in front of me.



I'm like….. the driving game version of senna or Hamilton. Or mansel…. Or Prost.or Schumacher. I'm all dat behind the wheel. But yeah…. You guys all behind me can tell me if the reflections look good on your cars. I'm too busy being in first place.
 
Turk1993 said:
65R7eaW.gif
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The reflection of the main car in the blue one? That's nice but I doubt anyone notices it while blowing past the other car. There's also the reflection on the tarmac but I'm not sure how it would look with SSR (or maybe cubemaps? Not sure what fallback solution the game uses).
 
twilo99 said:
The CPU choice for this generation consoles was indeed very poor and hopefully they learn their lesson.
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I think it's more that requirements have increased quickly for the kinds of new tech devs want.

The CPU's being Zen2 was hailed as a huge victory and a massive improvement over the Jaguar's relative to their time of release when this gen started.
 
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Gaiff said:
The reflection of the main car in the blue one? That's nice but I doubt anyone notices it while blowing past the other car. There's also the reflection on the tarmac but I'm not sure how it would look with SSR (or maybe cubemaps? Not sure what fallback solution the game uses).
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Its also noticable in the cockpit with cars that have a reflective interior and it looks really nice with all the accurate reflections in real time. Also thats not a reflection on the ground, its the light bounce of the yellow car by the headlight of the blue car.
 
adamsapple said:
I think it's more that requirements have increased quickly for the kinds of new tech devs want.

The CPU's being Zen2 was hailed as a huge victory and a massive improvement over the Jaguar's relative to their time of release when this gen started.
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That's also true, but to be honest its a really gimped Zen2 anyway, mid or top of the line would've aged much better. I understand the thermal constraints, price, etc. but they need to figure something out for the next round.
 
twilo99 said:
It worthless in most games IMO.
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Control is the only game that made raytraced reflections worthwhile due to its location. Metro Exodus, Dying Light 2, and Cyberpunk are the only ones to utilize RT Lighting properly. Everything by everyone else has been hogwash.
 
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The gaming side has gotten to the point that I don't even want to visit it anymore. We have a racing game with multiple options for RT in game and a performance option for none at all and there's still complaining about it even having RT. Something no one thought would be possible in real time on consoles.

Will Smith No GIF
 
twilo99 said:
That's also true, but to be honest its a really gimped Zen2 anyway, mid or top of the line would've aged much better. I understand the thermal constraints, price, etc. but they need to figure something out for the next round.
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The only thing that will work is if the new consoles are modular and allow cheaper upgrades.

I can already sense a Pro console post from HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 incoming but investing in a new console for the same brand, same generation, just to get marginal improvements is a big ask for a lot of people. Pro and One X barely made a blip in the sales. Having modular components will make it a lot easier and affordable for people*.

* but then you're basically turning them into PCs.
 
Dural said:
The gaming side has gotten to the point that I don't even want to visit it anymore. We have a racing game with multiple options for RT in game and a performance option for none at all and there's still complaining about it even having RT. Something no one thought would be possible in real time on consoles.
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I think they've done a great job on that considering the weak hardware they have to deal with, it's rather impressive actually.
 
Dural said:
Something no one thought would be possible in real time on consoles.
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How tho? There are other games with "4K" 60fps RT modes. Full open world ones too.

What people doubted and were correct on, was the usage of 4K being insinuated as being native.
 
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adamsapple said:
The only thing that will work is if the new consoles are modular and allow cheaper upgrades.

* but then you're basically turning them into PCs.
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All in for that but it will never happen unfortunately. Maybe they can make CPU, RAM, and storage upgradable, but keep the rest stock? I dunno..
 
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