Mini LED to be Sony's 2024 flag ship TV
- Thread starter S0ULZB0URNE
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rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Then you don't understand how to consume critical content on any tv. not just oled.And this is the crux of the ongoing debate. Not everyone games or watches movies in dark rooms. OLED enthusiasts for some reason have a difficult time understanding the possibility of different room conditions.
This is my living room. Ignore the bare walls, moved in this past year and am working on fixing things. But you'll note that there is a door sized window on the right. There are three of them next to one another, and it's south facing so I get lots of natural light. Imagine how bright it gets on sunny days. I enjoy the outdoors, so I never use those blinds.
LG's MLA tech has made their OLED models with it under consideration and I am eyeballing the upcoming G4, but they still have other issues since I am a console gamer, what with sub-40 fps causing stutter due to immediate pixel response. Most of the games I play have HUDs too, like when I play Stellaris for many, many, MANY hours at a time. Screen retention isn't the worst, but it IS there and I remember getting annoyed by it on my old Panasonic plasma many years ago.
OLED is a great bit of tech, but it's irritating watching it being stated as the de facto best TV option. The real answer is it depends. If you're a movie watcher and in a dark room, OLED is unquestionably the best tech to go with. That same OLED will likely struggle in my living room when the sun shines through. LED televisions have no such issues. But I have to deal with the blooming at night. Such is life.
With a bright room, with big window like that on the side, you will blow out any shadow areas and dark details. On any tv.
you would need the gamma extremely raised to avoid that.
Instead of your shadows being 0-100 nits, they would need to be 4000 nits. Where does that leave rest of the picture?
In order to view content in a bright room and "see all of it" you need to flatten it's gamma curve. Brighten up everything.
that's impossible.
And 10000 nits tv (of any kind) will NOT SOLVE THAT ISSUE because it's not an issue. if you have 10k nits mini led tv, you are still not displating shadow areas at 10k nits. unless your whole screen is gray.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
So why are you responding here? We are arguing about accuracy of critical viewing.
Playing a game in the middle of the day with a window like that is never ideal but it's your choice. You don't need to treat every gaming session as critical one lol.
Pretty sure you can do a round of warzone on a beach. that game is all daylight and bright
IlGialloMondadori
Member
I'm just kinda blown away there are people who are really into lcd tvs.
Bojji
Member
Maybe it's input lag?
But this has nothing to do with display type, shitty hardware and software in monitor will be responsible for that.
Ulysses 31
Member
Untill OLEDs can be light cannons like LCDs can be, there will be those who go for the greater color volume.
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rofif
Can’t Git Gud
yeah must be just input lag.
It's neither pixel response g2g orany other type. And for sure not local dimming response which some reviewers don't even measure but I remember vincent saying it's even up to half a second on best mini leds.
By the description of new sony mini-leds, there will be some delay. The chip has to analyze the image, see how backlight must be adjusted, send that data to chip, chip sends it back to backlight board and then it reacts. It must take some time. That guy from digital trends described the whole process from engineering side.
Oled is just that pixel which reacts. No need for other layers
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Ah yes. On that subject.
Black crush is not a thing, says the guy who ignores black crush which removes dark details in shadowy areas, and then in the next moment is all
Ah, so those details matter if it's not similar to your room conditions, but if it's an OLED, then the issue is overblown. Got it.
It's in the post you responded to.
Like, it's right there, and it's blatant. The VA panel is beating the OLED with the tree on the left, among many other details. In a scene where the OLED should be the unequivocal winner. The VA panel blooms like a motherfucker when the subtitles kick in which looks really bad and the OLED handles flawlessly, but the tree is still missing details.
You're either blind, or your current display that you're viewing this forum on is crushing the details in the photo which prevents you from seeing how much is lost, in which case, lmao.
Putonahappyface
Member
Micro Led will probably be the next television technology I'll jump to.
Ulysses 31
Member
Will be interesting to see MiniLED performance once they start going into the millions of zones territory.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I've not experienced that in my use.
DTM is not less correct than hgig mind you. It was CREATED just for use with 4k nits mastered movies. To be used for that purpose and so your tv can display the image with best of it's limited capability.
using dtm is no showing picture incorrectly and I do not agree with vincent on this.
I am not so focused on being very accurate. i want my tv to do what it can to display the image best it can and how I like it.
And as for that specific example. Maybe the picture was badly takes. Maybe it only shows relative difference, maybe the settings are not correct, maybe that other tv is not correct. I don't trust that test.
Anyway - that is extreme specific case. I've watched ton of movies (hdr movies) and that's simply not a thing.
what movie is that? I can check the scene
edit: and no. YOu don't "have to be blind" to see the absence of some minor shadow detail without any fucking comparison when watching a movie. Get real, are you looking at the tree or the mans face. Can we stop attacking?
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Kuranghi
Member
Have you ever owned an FALD LCD? If yes which model? Not a gotcha just trying to see what your experience of them is vs. OLED, which I presume you currently own as your main TV.
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Monkfish877
Member
Will OLED ever fix it's burn in issues?
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
No. There are features to prolong it's life:
-White pixel - have best life span for organic leds. So it can do the heavy lifting for brightness and take the beating on itself rather than other, more fragile pixels.
-Pixel refresher(short and long) - In case of LG, after 4 hours of cumulative use, when you turn off the tv, the screen pixels compensation will happen to "wear" the pixels evenly. It's done more thoroughly after 2k hours.
-Screen dimming (tpc and gsr on lg) - I have it disabled in service but 8k hours and no burn out yet. (disabled about 4k hours ago)
-Pixel shifter - crap. I don't think it's doing much at all. but doesn't hurt.
QD oleds from other brands have problems with first 2. They lack white pixels and drive rgb pixels too bright, wearing them quicker. Then the refreshers algorithms do not kick in when needed.
If longevity is your main issue, LG should be the safest. 8k hours looks like brand new.
if you can stand this lady, then watch this cool vid
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D
Deleted member 848825
Unconfirmed Member
It may have changed (I'd be surprised). But on my C1, DTM objectively wasn't accurate as it stops tracking the EOTF correctly. There's nothing wrong in preferring it. But it does deviate from accuracy. The key is in the name as its dynamic, but interpreting static meta data. When I used it in gaming. AC Valhalla for example, it would artificially enhance the luminance, which worked great for day time scenes, but then looked too bright during night time scenes. So Vincent is correct. But that doesn't mean, you shouldn't use it or prefer it.
IlGialloMondadori
Member
No, I've never owned one. I'm sure they're good, and they are better in brightly lit rooms, but the pure blacks of oled and the amazing hdr without bloom and the rich colors for me all day if I have a choice.
thebigmanjosh
Member
There should be a TV thread rule - anyone who posts hot takes needs to note what set they're using.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
That's stupid.
ownership bias is one thing but I am pretty sure I know how fast ferrari goes without ever owning one.
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
No. There are features to prolong it's life:
-White pixel - have best life span for organic leds. So it can do the heavy lifting for brightness and take the beating on itself rather than other, more fragile pixels.
-Pixel refresher(short and long) - In case of LG, after 4 hours of cumulative use, when you turn off the tv, the screen pixels compensation will happen to "wear" the pixels evenly. It's done more thoroughly after 2k hours.
-Screen dimming (tpc and gsr on lg) - I have it disabled in service but 8k hours and no burn out yet. (disabled about 4k hours ago)
-Pixel shifter - crap. I don't think it's doing much at all. but doesn't hurt.
QD oleds from other brands have problems with first 2. They lack white pixels and drive rgb pixels too bright, wearing them quicker. Then the refreshers algorithms do not kick in when needed.
If longevity is your main issue, LG should be the safest. 8k hours looks like brand new.
if you can stand this lady, then watch this cool vid
They are working to bring out OLED panels that replace the organic materials, which will eliminate burn in.
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rofif
Can’t Git Gud
then it's not oled, is it ?
Organic LED
... well unless it's something else tarting with O.
thebigmanjosh
Member
If speed was the only metric for measurement, sure, but there's a lot more that goes into driving (& TVs) than a single data point. Sony is not doing this because mini-LED is better, they're doing this because they just released their flagship QD-OLED a few months ago, and Samsung Display has nothing new to bring the table in 2024.
QD-OLED is the best display technology on the market for those who don't need something larger than 77". Mini-LED is fine for most use-cases, especially those who want the biggest, brightest* TV on a restrictive budget, but does not come close to the same PQ in most respects.
*top end mini-LEDs do not hold as wide of a brightness margin in real HDR content as some believe outside of the very rare 1000+ nit full field scenes (Matrix, LOTR, etc). SDR is a different story, but then you're getting into a use-case debate.
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...Are you thinking of MicroLED here? Since the goal of them is to be an LED per pixel, they can go brighter than OLED and won't suffer burn in, the downside is that currently it's still expensive and difficulty in squashing the screen size down at 4k.
Kuranghi
Member
You should try one so you can see what the difference is with large bright areas, maybe a secondary/bedroom/gaming room TV, something high spec but cheap like a Hisense U8K or it's 2024 successor.
The per-pixel dimming performance and small highlight pop of OLED can't be discounted, its definitely amazing and most people should just buy an OLED to keep it simple, but I'd trade that (large) dark scene advantage for the brightness of my ZD9 again and again.
The times when ZD9 can't keep up with my OLED's HDR dark scene performance is so few and far between vs. the pop of things taking up over 10% of the screen wowing me daily. Often as well what blooming there is in challenging scenes is completely masked by the flare of the highlight in your eyes, you see this bloom of white around the highlight and if you cover the bright element with your hand you realise that's its not actually the panel blooming at all.
The Hisense U8K/L won't be a proper stand-in for a Sony ZD9 ofc but I'm sure the comparison will still be valid.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I don't see how QD oled is a step forward.
It's a step backwards. They remove white pixel and drive rgb pixels super hard. And the added qd layer serves to oversaturate...
I don't doubt it looks very impressive but is it worth sacrificial of those burn-in prevention features that were invented? qd-oled is just going to what was there before.
Plenty of reports on qd-oled not performing pixel refresh properly and burning out sooner.
Anyway - I realize it's more impressive looking. It must be with sacrifices it does. Lg MLA keeps the white pixels... and in facts adds another layer of them if I understand correctly in order to do what qd-oled does without sacrificing liefspan as much. That I would be more interested in.
Kuranghi
Member
There's a big misconception about how bright FALD LCDs can make highlights outside of test patterns I agree, but to me the real advantage is just overall bright scenes, for example in Forbidden West, when you're in the desert its significantly brighter on my ZD9 than my Sony OLED. Its disappointing on the OLED when you see how the LCD handles it.
Granted that's the ZD9 and not much compares so most people can't get that (well you can buy 2nd hand but obviously most don't want to), but if Sony is going back to it with this TV maybe people can have it new again.
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
He doesn't trust Vincent from HDTV test
Start a channel for TVs, the polish guy who trades 1000 potatoes and 10 socks for his OLED.
Start a channel for TVs, the polish guy who trades 1000 potatoes and 10 socks for his OLED.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
So what does this mean, no high-end OLED from Sony this year? I've been waiting for them to put one out with full HDMI 2.1 support on all inputs.
Mister Wolf
Member
Sleepwalker
Member
Yup.
This all boils down to "We don't wanna pay Samsung for their QD-OLED panels so we found something with higher margin" and then just some PR sprinkled on top.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
lg oleds look darker only in comparison because these other tvs are brighter? and when you use the same camera settings that's how it looks.
"Seeing is believing."
When You watch that scene in reality, it's just white.
If you film two tvs and set exposure to the brighter one, of course the darker one will look faded. Nothing really special here
edit: in other words - this only shows relative difference. if you set exposure to g3, it will look white too. and anyway... how many times do you see a full white scene like that. I can deal with it even if it's not blinding sun surface for 10 seconds
Dude. reported. i had enough of your shit.He doesn't trust Vincent from HDTV test
Start a channel for TVs, the polish guy who trades 1000 potatoes and 10 socks for his OLED.
You lack any knowledge and just continue to offend me.
Go follow your fav youtuber. You dont need to form your own opinion clearly
edit: yes. responding to my every single post with laughing emoji clearly shows how intelligent you are. congratulations
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Senua
Member
Careful dude soulzbourne will shit
KaiserBecks
Member
Like Black Crush
Well at least OLED actually has blacks.
Mister Wolf
Member
Way to spin a negative into a positive. You should work for LG.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I am still waiting for that movie title and where in movie is that scene.
I will post a picture how it looks (if i will find hdr version of that movie) with hgig and dtm
KaiserBecks
Member
Thank you.
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
All your comments all these pages for that sudden realization that it's because the others are brighter
That explains everything.
Basic basic stuffs
Reported? Oh noes. Neogaf's clown had enough. Surprised it wasn't Forspoken bashing that got under your skin.
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Mister Wolf
Member
Why would you set it to that. The camera exposure is clearly set to the $30,000 professional grade mastering monitor representing Ground Truth.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
And that still shows relative difference.
The white can be white at any brightness
YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
Haloing or bloom has to be one of the most annoying and distracting things ever. It'll be interesting to see how this new Sony tv handles it in worst case scenarios.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
You really think it is that complicated? explains a lot.
Continue being petty and find out. Only makes you look bad.
I had it enough at "polish guy and potatoes". I don't think we need the types of you on this forum. I never had good interaction with you.
I don't need this. keep being a fool here or somewhere else but stay out of my way
JerryinSoCal
Member
Aren't mini led's more for watching movies than gaming? I mean technically all TV's are but I've read some negative things about mini LED's and gaming in the past.
deriks
4-Time GIF/Meme God
Oled= perfect black - better used on darker rooms
Mini led= perfect brightness - better used when you have a lot of sun on the room
Qled= mix of both before, apeals to those who has a little more money but not much
Led= if you don't really care, just want to watch/play some stuff
Mini led= perfect brightness - better used when you have a lot of sun on the room
Qled= mix of both before, apeals to those who has a little more money but not much
Led= if you don't really care, just want to watch/play some stuff
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
You see how this is a dead end? Explaining this to someone with such strong opinions is like trying to do a ELI5
Sleepwalker
Member
Mister Wolf
Member
It's a fun conversation. As the Sony engineer said, there is no perfect display tech. I just find it amusing that the OLED proponents pretend like theirs is. Especially the "OLED is already burning my corneas!!!!!!!" guys. You would think you were talking to:
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chromatic9
Member
Not sure some deny it but the major flaw with oled has always been crushing blacks and overly dark appearance and scenes with quick transitions fail to light up enough even. All this talk about oled colour accuracy goes out the window.
Each tech has pros and cons. I think some people just need to admit they lean towards image pop and glossy looks. I much prefer a consistent reference image that has detail in dark areas and sacrifice a bit of black level.
One major problem with LCD/LED is motion resolution, so how much improvement does this Sony 2024 mini LED have in that regard?
It's disappointing that we're still stuck with all these issues.
Each tech has pros and cons. I think some people just need to admit they lean towards image pop and glossy looks. I much prefer a consistent reference image that has detail in dark areas and sacrifice a bit of black level.
One major problem with LCD/LED is motion resolution, so how much improvement does this Sony 2024 mini LED have in that regard?
It's disappointing that we're still stuck with all these issues.
Bojji
Member
TV tier list looks like this:
LT:
- Edge lit LCD - cheapest, dim, nothing worth mentioning
- Full array LCD - better, may be with QLED (so LCD with quantum dot) so it's really not bad but also nothing special
MT:
- Full array LCD with local dimming, now this type of tvs can be show some HDR, quality depends on number of dimming zones, brightness (and milion other factors)
HT:
- Full array mini led LCD with local dimming, can offer brightest HDR experience with decent black level
- OLED, top black level and medium brightness, good HDR experience
Potential top tier in the future:
- Micro led, best in everything - giga chad of tv tech
Right now some people prefer good mini led tvs and some prefer oleds, this war will continue until micro led will become available to masses.
KuraiShidosha
Member
I loved this post.