Fabieter
Member
Whats also insane is that they ask 50% more in europe for the disc than in the us. So there is even some extra greed for their European fans
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DF x IGN closest GPU to PS5 pro is an RTX 4070
- Thread starter Bernoulli
- Start date
Whats also insane is that they ask 50% more in europe for the disc than in the us. So there is even some extra greed for their European fans
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Yup, they got me there.
I believe some people even said it could be sold for $700... I think one person even threw $800 around. Just going off the recent price hikes across PlayStation products.
But I don't think anyone expected it to be at that price, without a disc drive.
I had it for $550 without disc drive, and $600 with the disc drive, basically $100 more than the base PS5 SKUs. I am currently holding Sony's beer.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
EXACTLY!!!! And it's double the price of the PS5 Pro.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
We should have seen this coming when Microsoft said they would sell the Xbox Series X 2TB special edition for $600!!!! NO way the PS5 Pro would match at the same price with a disc drive.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Euro pricing has always been weird to me. Granted, back in 2020, while the list price was identical between the Euro and dollar (both were $499), you were technically paying more in dollars than you were paying in Euro. Think then it was like 0.8 euro to $1. Now, however, its 0.9 euro to a dollar. It should be 630 euro, if we are doing a direct conversion.Whats also insane is that they ask 50% more in europe for the disc than in the us. So there is even some extra greed for their European fans
I am curious to know why its a whole 170euro more than what it should cost. Is this a VAT thing?
A very good point... in hindsight, I am wondering why I didn't think of it.
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Fabieter
Member
Even if you account for the 25% VAT, which is the highest in Europe, the price is still more expensive. For example, if you remove VAT from the price of the disc drive and convert it to dollars, it’s still $26 more expensive than the US price. It's strange. If they do a bundle with stand and disc drive for 799 I might get one. But that ship has sailed with current Sony.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Wait hold up...
that 800euro is including a 25% VAT?
Or is it 25% VAT on top of the 800Euro?
If its the former, then we cant be complaining about the price in Euro, as that means Sony is getting even less from their EU customers than they are getting from the US customers.
SenkiDala
Member
With VAT included.
GHG
Gold Member
I get what you're saying but honestly I feel like it's a rite of passage that anyone who is serious about building and maintaining a PC needs to go through. This was my bent pin situation from way back in 2010:
"I need a new PC!" 2010 Edition
How many battery cells do you have? I get like 2.5ish hours on my 6 cell battery with my 720QM. I've been looking a bit into these high density batteries for my laptop i've seen around online but I'm not sure how legit they are. I just got the 9-cell one that ships from Dell, the length is...
From that point on I realised how resilient and idiot-proof PC components are in general. Some of the builds I've put together over the years I've been convinced wouldn't boot when putting them together because of how rough I've had to be due to tight spaces in cases, but every single time I get post on first try.
So for people with a specific budget in mind my advice will always be to get the best performing build for the money at the time of purchase - That usually involves going heavy on the GPU and making sacrifices/cuts (within reason) in other areas.
Fabieter
Member
Yes and no — VAT in Europe ranges from 17% to 27%. I live in Germany, where it's 19%, but I still find it odd to include taxes in the comparison. For example, Sony pays corporate taxes in the Netherlands, which offers lower tax rates and more tax benefits than what Sony faces in California, USA. Do we include this too for doing prices. I know it's not 1to1 comparisons but still.
But Even if we factor in taxes, which I believe is the wrong approach, it's still more expensive in Europe. The disc version will costs 860,00 dollar in Germany. Stand sold separately.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I didn't think about it either. Not until the next day after the PS5 Pro's price was revealed.
Zuzu
Member
Conclusions froms the video:
6800 or 7700xt are the closest when it comes to raster, but if considering raster/ray-tracing/ML upscaling all together then the 3070ti is the closest. However the 3070ti doesn’t have as much amount of ram available as the PS5 Pro gpu. So currently there is no perfect analogue to the Pro’s gpu.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Naaa man come on this changes everything.
I didn't know that €800 included VAT. and if you say VAT in the EU ranges from 17% to 27%, so let's call that a 22% average, then it means excluding VAT, Sony is selling the PS5 for €624. Which translates to $691.
So why the hell are people in the EU complaining???????
Bojji
Member
You are way too serious about this WAR bullshit, hahaha
ap_puff
Banned
lower median wage in europe means it seems more expensive to most people there
Fabieter
Member
Wha if you divide 799 through 1.22 its 655. Which still brings it over 699$. If you add the disc it's even a bigger difference. Its 80 dollar difference in germany which is pure profit for sony.
As I mentioned, corporate taxes in the U.S. are higher than where Sony conducts its business in Europe. So, it's unreasonable to include that in the pricing argument. Sony pays around 25% on profits in Europe, compared to 30% in the U.S.
But it doesn't matter its still more expensive in europe even with vat included which like i said is arguably stupid.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Well... I can get that, but that should really only be a problem is they are asked to pay more than what it costs in the states. That is not really what's going on here. It costs as much as it does over there because they are paying more in VAT. The VAT doesn't go to Sony.
In actuality, they are paying less than what those of us buying from the states are paying.
Bitstream
Member
Quick google shows the lower wages come with a lower cost of living -
- The median cost of living in the U.S. is $2,508 per month, while in Europe it's $1,746 per month.
Fabieter
Member
Average net earnings is double in the us while paying less cooperate taxes too.
Sony is fucking
.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
No. If there is one thing I know, is that when it comes to taxes, everyone gets their cut. Corporate taxes in the US may be higher, but VAT is lower. Corporate taxes in the EU may be lower, but VAT is higher. This shit all cancel out somehow.
I can't speak for the disc drive, haven't done the math myself, but looking at the console... the EU customer is being asked to pay less than what the US customer is paying. At the end of the day, the best way to look at this is what Sony is getting. Its not Sony's fault that some countries ask you to pay more or less in VAT.
Hell, in all this, for people like me that arent even based in the States, I would have to pay an addition 70%!!!!! 53% on duties and 17% VAT on everything I import, which includes a PS5pro. For me, the PS5pro will cost $1190. Maybe this also explains why I just prefer buying my games digitally than to buy a disc and ship it over and pay 70% extra on top of it.
Bitstream
Member
by Phoenix's math, Sony would be fucking the US customers. VAT is how your country has decided to tax you, the money isn't going to sony. Additionally, in EU healthcare is free and college is substantially less expensive, and often free. You guys have no clue how things are in the US. We have a school shooting 4X a month, we pay the price.Average net earnings is double in the us while paying less cooperate taxes too.
Sony is fucking
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Fabieter
Member
You say in the first part that's its even out but continue that's its fine to fuck over
. Like I said if you do the math the right way even without the disc it's still more than 699$. So i don't know what to tell you.
Fabieter
Member
His math is wrong
Do 799÷1.22 and put that number into Google and ask it to covert that shit into dollar. It's more than 699 and if you include the disc drive it's even worse. So no!
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I know I shouldn't be laughing at this, but this is the funniest shit I have read today. You guys really do pay the price. And you are right, where I am at, there is no income tax, healthcare is mostly free, education is mostly free, but damn, do they tax the hell out of you the second you want to import anything. And mind you, even tomatoes gets imported here.
With the evens out thing, I meant figuratively, not literally.You say in the first part that's its even out but continue that's its fine to fuck over
How are you doing your math? This is how I arrived at mine.
€800 for PS5pro. if you exclude 22% VAT average (€176, 22% of €800)
you get 800 - 176 = €624
Convert €624 to USD = $691
I cant see any other way to do that math...
Granted, in the states they would still have to pay sales tax in some states, some states don't ask for that, and there is no general VAT nationwide. But at the end of the day, sony is getting more actual money from the US buyer than from the EU buyer. The EU buyer is paying less for the PS5pro than the US buyer. You'll givts are just fucking you up with them taxes.
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Fabieter
Member
No the tax is included which means its 122% so you have to go from there you math is 100% sure wrong.
799÷1.22 or 799/122×100 is the right way.
To extract the 19% VAT (Value Added Tax) in Germany and calculate the net amount, you can follow these steps:
- Start with the Gross Amount (Total Price including VAT): Suppose the total price you paid includes 19% VAT. This total is 119% of the net price.
- Use the Formula to Extract the VAT:
Net Price=Gross Price1+VAT rateNet Price=1+VAT rateGross Price
In Germany, the VAT rate is 19%, or 0.19. So the formula becomes:
Net Price=Gross Price1.19Net Price=1.19Gross Price - Example Calculation:
If you have a gross price of €119, the net price (before VAT) would be:
Net Price=1191.19=100Net Price=1.19119=100
So, €100 is the net price, and the VAT amount is €19.
- Net price = Gross price / 1.19
- VAT amount = Gross price - Net
Addionally what alot of people forget:
When it comes to VAT, there are many opportunities for businesses to manage it efficiently. For example, if a company in Germany purchases a product, they can deduct the 19% VAT. Furthermore, if they sell that product within the EU, the company may not have to pay VAT on the transaction. This topic is far more complex than many people realize, with numerous regulations and options to consider at both national and EU levels. It's important to understand the details to make the most of VAT rules and optimize business operations."
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Ok... I am confused, hopefully, someone else can chime in.
how you are doing your calculation, is finding a price of in this case €655 and finding then adding 22% of that to it. and thus arriving at the €800. In which case it means that excluding VAT, what you guys are paying is on average $727. I always hated math
This could be explained by the assumption that Sony probably just applies a higher VAT tax average than the median 22% we are using here.
In this case, yes, you are paying more. Still not as bad as I initially thought it was though. And for what its worth, some states in the USA still end up paying more than that. Some states will pay as much as $750 after sales tax is included.
And thanks for the correction. Your method feels better than mine lol.
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PaintTinJr
Member
I love the link to the story and I agree about CPUs being very durable but motherboards and motherboard headers are not in my years of building and freely helping others in person or as Apollo 13 command control when they've done something wrong. For the people that don't live and breath computing one case, one mobo, one PSU, one CPU and one Cooler is the best solution, and short of them having a friend on hand to do such tasks for free, they need to go best they can afford in those areas and buy GPUs like they need replaced frequently.I get what you're saying but honestly I feel like it's a rite of passage that anyone who is serious about building and maintaining a PC needs to go through. This was my bent pin situation from way back in 2010:
"I need a new PC!" 2010 Edition
How many battery cells do you have? I get like 2.5ish hours on my 6 cell battery with my 720QM. I've been looking a bit into these high density batteries for my laptop i've seen around online but I'm not sure how legit they are. I just got the 9-cell one that ships from Dell, the length is...www.neogaf.com
From that point on I realised how resilient and idiot-proof PC components are in general. Some of the builds I've put together over the years I've been convinced wouldn't boot when putting them together because of how rough I've had to be due to tight spaces in cases, but every single time I get post on first try.
So for people with a specific budget in mind my advice will always be to get the best performing build for the money at the time of purchase - That usually involves going heavy on the GPU and making sacrifices/cuts (within reason) in other areas.
Such gamers don't want to get caught up in buying the top three tiers of GPUs that provide the worst value and lose most value quickest IMO.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
For $700 you can’t play your physical games. That’s the reality. Sony’s clearly preparing to end physical console games on PlayStation. So a closed platform for $800, plus another $60 or whatever it is for the pro ledge of playing online, and then $70 for games.
It’s insane as consoles were always designated to be the inexpensive hardware entry to gaming. With PS5 Pro that is wiped away as the door is now open for PS6 to roll in at the same price or higher.
As for PC, it’s a completely different beast. It’s pointless to compare them as if they’re on equal footing with equal libraries when the reality is a PC does a lot more than just play games, and has a game library to spans decades.
Fabieter
Member
Ok... I am confused, hopefully, someone else can chime in.
how you are doing your calculation, is finding a price of in this case €655 and finding then adding 22% of that to it. and thus arriving at the €800. In which case it means that excluding VAT, what you guys are paying is on average $727. I always hated math
This could be explained by the assumption that Sony probably just applies a higher VAT tax average than the median 22% we are using here.
In this case, yes, you are paying more. Still not as bad as I initially thought it was though. And for what its worth, some states in the USA still end up paying more than that. Some states will pay as much as $750 after sales tax is included.
"It would be typical for a company like Sony to start targeting the smallest markets in Europe with VAT rates as high as 27%, then move on from there. Even so, the majority of people would still end up paying more.
With disc drive included we are talking about 840 dollar. Which means we are paying 60 dollar more even without the average vat. And 3 to 4 dollar more for a 80 euro game.
And seriously, are you implying that some places in the us too include VAT after all?
.Also, what’s do you think about the average net salary being twice as high in the U.S. compared to Europe?
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
The US does not have VAT period. But most states have sales tax. Which is their own glorified version of VAT. But that isn't added to the $700 list price, because 1) it ranges from 2% -7% varying from state to state, and 2) some states don't even have it at all. So in those states you are paying $700 flat.And seriously, are you implying that some places in the us too include VAT after all?
I won't go into that, because I am not based in the states, just do 90% all my shopping from there. But I will say this much, very little is state-subsidized in the states, from how I understand things. So while the average net salary may seem higher, the shit they pay for are a lot and usually more expensive than those same things in the EU.
Eg.. take germany for instance, cost of a medical degree there is practically free. If you go to a Public university. In the states, even their public university would set you back up to $200K if you are a local or $400K if you aren't. And that's a public school, prices practically can almost double if we throw in private schools.
And lets not forget that they pay federal (10-27%) and state income taxes too. Yeah, don't let their cost off good fool you, they get fucked too.
This is what I meant by these things balance out somehow.
Fabieter
Member
So overall we can agree that with just looking at the pricing of the console itself that most Europeans will pay 20 to 100 Dollar more depending where they live and if they go for the disc drive as well.
.Edit. We could go alot deeper in the rest since this is super complex but if you are interested i would do that in private would go to far.
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yurinka
Member
You can't play physical games in the $1600+ PC I mentioned either.
The console, like the PC, has the option of getting it with a disc drive. As was the case with the base PS5 both slim and original. They always had the PS5 cheaper option without disc drive and a more expensive option with it.
This complain of "it has no disc drive" is just a bullshit complain about a non-issue because you are trying to find an excuse to complain about it.
Again, complete bullshit.
PS5 Pro gives you hardware that a PC gives you for more than the double of its price. But you complain about the pricing of the console and not the PC. It's nonsensical.
Regarding the plus, you don't need it for single player games or F2P games. You only need it for the MP mode of paid games with MP. And it has a great value for its price, just because the games it gives you (only counting the ones you like), or just with the extra discounts it gives you. The money you "save" with each one of these two things separatedly each year more than covers its price.
And the game prices are basically the same than in PC. And not all -at all- are priced at $70, they have ways to get them cheaper at launch, and over time they get discounted and can get them dirt cheap. Plus if you get them in physical unlike the PC ones you can sell them in 2nd hand if you want.
yurinka
Member
The one who said 4070 is the DF guy, not me. The one who makes "PS5 equivalent PCs" compararisions putting in the PC a way more powerful CPU than the PS5 one etc.
A ton of people ate crow with the base PS5 when saying it was going to have less performance than Series X. Same happened when PS4 Pro specs were announced. And same will happen with the Pro.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Mister Wolf
Member
The introduction of low latency frame generation has made upgrading every GPU generation pointless.
DeadOblivion78
Banned
I trust the guy who made Marble Madness more.
JackMcGunns
Member
On an old Zen 2 CPU
TehGoomba7s
Member
For any PS5 owner it is. Which is what it is marketed at.
ap_puff
Banned
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
It's close. The 4060 is barely faster than the 3060, which in turn is slower than the PS5. It's really a 4050 Ti.
ap_puff
Banned
Yup. It's why what nvidia did with the 40-series naming really fucking sucks, you have people who assume a certain level of performance from a certain naming scheme, and it turns out it's actually significantly worse than it should have been given past trends...and nvidia did it on purpose to move their pricing scheme up a tier, sometimes two tiers. I still can't get over that they were going to call the 4070 Ti a 4080 (and really it shouldn't even be a 4070 Ti, it should be called a base 4070)
Bojji
Member
Yep, if 3070ti had 16GB of Vram (or even 12) it would be the closest match. But sadly with 8GB it can only be used in not vram intensive games as comparison (like most UE5 games).