Topher
Identifies as young
Neither DLSS or PSSR provide both clean lines and a clear image so pick your poison.
Digital Foundry - Upscaling Face-Off: PS5 Pro PSSR vs PC DLSS/FSR 3.1 in Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart
- Thread starter Gaiff
- Start date
Neither DLSS or PSSR provide both clean lines and a clear image so pick your poison.
Crispy Gamer
Member
Props to Alex for a good balanced video
T4keD0wN
Member
Cant wait for 3/4x frame generation editions of 50series cards thatll cost an extra 300$ or 600$ more than regular 2x FG ones.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Not sure. Cerny said the PS5 is 45% faster than the Pro. The 4070 is 60-70% faster than the PS5. It could be 10-15% faster in rasterization, but the Pro’s bandwidth is also 14% higher. We also don’t know how exactly the ray tracing compares. The bottom line is, there are significant differences to the point that they’re not all that similar. It’s not a case of the 6700/2070S vs PS5 where they generally perform within 5% of one another. That’s similar.
I’m confused. The game’s footage isn’t uncapped on the Pro. It’s capped to 60fps. Why are you talking about uncapping the frame rate on the Pro? It’s not yet possible, hence why it’s not reasonable to ask for a performance comparison at the moment.
If you look at it this way, I guess. NVIDIA is investing more in their consumer GPUs than ever before because they have more money than ever. Do they invest a bigger share in AI? Absolutely, but it’s not negatively impacting the consumer business, on the contrary. Their focus on this side hasn’t decreased, it has just increased on the AI side.
Nah, don't agree. NVIDIA may have been a consumer GPU company first in the past and not anymore, but they were also not a 3 trillion dollar company. Relatively speaking, their focus has shifted, but what do we care that they're investing only 10% in consumer GPUs when that 10% is 200 billion dollars compared to 90% that used to be 50 billion (just pulling out random numbers btw).
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Topher
Identifies as young
Cant wait for 3/4x frame generation editions of 50series cards thatll cost an extra 300$ or 600$ more than regular 2x FG ones.
Legit concern. There is no telling what kind of conditions Nvidia puts on their next iteration of DLSS. Hell, for all we know DLSS 4 will only work with 5000 series GPUs (unless they have already said otherwise). Imagine being a 4090 owner and getting that news.
Radical_3d
Member
Fuck them. I just need FSR 4 not to suck and then I will not be giving them more money anymore. Directly at least.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Yes, one of the comparisons shows jagged edges on the DLSS screen. It's not common, but it's there.
XXL
Banned
100% Tesla for example...
The older cars will eventually be capped for autonomous driving features and won't be able to be expanded without hardware upgrades or newer models. The future hardware is entirely focused on autonomous features.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That's one way to artificially lessen diminishing return cards being developed here on out.
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Bojji
Member
You mean fizzling of the whole image on Pro? It's probably caused by current version of PSSR.
T4keD0wN
Member
I assume theyll attempt something like that to make people feel more pressure to upgrade only for AMD to make that very feature (but worse) available on even 20series GPUs within like 2 years. There will be little reason to upgrade otherwise if you have a high end 40 series cards, but i really hope i am wrong. Given the leaked specs theyd have to make massive architectural upgrades to rt cores for Blackwell to have a good way to market those cards (at least aside from a 5090 which will sell just based on the power)
Would be cool if they did something completely crazy like real-time game asset upscaling, but that will probably take a decade before we get there.
You mean Youtube compression? Could also be something like lower resolution effects like reflections for example not playing nicely with upscaling, at least yet. Upscaling tends to make things noisier compared to native res and its especially easy to see if you zoom in. Shouldnt be hardware related at all.
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Fake
Member
Nobody is blaiming Sony wtf
What I'm saying is we need to compare AI vs AI in case you don't get it.
nowhat
Member
It deserves that. And, probably, also likes it.DLSS and PSSR going blow for blow
Meanwhile FSR
Physiognomonics
Member
With PSSR PS5 Pro has overall better RT reflections in motion than DLSS 3.7 using CBR and slighlty better (with less aliasing) than DLSS 3.7 quality. Alex at this point with the 4 splitted comparison showing the best results for PSSR: "I need more time with PSSR"
The first is using CBR RT on PC. Clear win for PSSR.
But even against DLSS 3.7 quality, PSSR is the best, less aliasing and cleaner reflections in motion. Shocking honestly.
The first is using CBR RT on PC. Clear win for PSSR.
But even against DLSS 3.7 quality, PSSR is the best, less aliasing and cleaner reflections in motion. Shocking honestly.
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Topher
Identifies as young
I would not be opposed to Sony sharing what they have learned with PSSR with AMD. Or maybe licensing out the tech even (assuming Sony owns it entirely). Nvidia needs viable competition.
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MisterXDTV
Member
Why???
You compare CURRENT upscaling on base PS5/Series X vs PSSR
That's what matters
You buy a PS5 Pro to get an improvement compared to the base PS5
Who cares about fu***ing PC, AMD, Intel or Nvidia??
Hoddi
Member
I'd be surprised if PSSR/FSR4 weren't the exact same thing. Either way, it bodes very well for AMD's upcoming GPUs because this is a massive upgrade over FSR3.
Upscaling only needs to be good enough in the same way that video compression needs to be good enough. AV1 and HEVC also have small differences but they're hardly worth fussing over.
winjer
Gold Member
But these are all different upscalers. And we should have the intellect to distinguish between the tech each one uses.
We can't expect the same quality from a spatial upscaler as we have from a temporal upscaler.
And we can't expect the same quality from a AI temporal upscaler, as from a non-AI temporal upscaler.
Context matters.
And in case you didn't notice, it's on the PC that all the AI innovations are happening.
PSSR is not the first AI temporal upscaler, being used in games. It's not even the second.
Fake
Member
Are you fucking serious?
How you gonna know if your AI solution is better than the competition if you gonna comparing with a shit technique like FSR?
Are you really want to compare anything with FSR? Anything is better than FSR, there is no need for comparison at all. There is no debatable about that. We don't need a crystal ball to know FSR sucks.
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Topher
Identifies as young
When the leaks first broke, I speculated that PSSR might be a fork of FSR. No way to know really unless Sony says so. Having those ML components on the GPU seems to be the key here, for the most part.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
To come out with this as a first attempt to release for production is impressive. Regardless of what is better or the best, this is clearly very good already.
Looking forward to seeing how it evolves and improves over the next 3-4 years on PS5 Pro, and what PS6 ends up being able to do.
To all the folks saying PS5 Pro isn’t for them and that it’s too expensive etc: that’s totally justified and it isn’t aimed at everyone anyway.
But PS5 Pro coming out now, years in advance of the next base console PlayStation 6 means it can potentially be something far more impressive than it would have otherwise been when it launches. The software will be mature, the hardware will know what it needs to target, and developers will be familiar and comfortable with implementing it from day one.
Looking forward to seeing how it evolves and improves over the next 3-4 years on PS5 Pro, and what PS6 ends up being able to do.
To all the folks saying PS5 Pro isn’t for them and that it’s too expensive etc: that’s totally justified and it isn’t aimed at everyone anyway.
But PS5 Pro coming out now, years in advance of the next base console PlayStation 6 means it can potentially be something far more impressive than it would have otherwise been when it launches. The software will be mature, the hardware will know what it needs to target, and developers will be familiar and comfortable with implementing it from day one.
winjer
Gold Member
Could have shared code for the temporal part of the process.
XeSS, DLSS and PSSR are all temporal upscalers. That jitter pixel samples, and accumulate them to generate new pixels.
So they are essentially doing a very similar thing. It's the AI part that is making the difference.
Topher
Identifies as young
If you want real improvements in PSSR upscaling then compare the tech against competing technology, not previous inferior versions of the same product. That's a known quantity. I don't see what value there is in affirming what we already know.
With PSSR PS5 Pro has overall better RT reflections in motion than DLSS 3.7 using CBR and slighlty better (with less aliasing) than DLSS 3.7 quality. Alex at this point with the 4 splitted comparison showing the best results for PSSR: "I need more time with PSSR"
The first is using CBR RT on PC. Clear win for PSSR.
But even against DLSS 3.7 quality, PSSR is the best, less aliasing and cleaner reflections in motion. Shocking honestly.
This come at a cost unfortunately. The image look softer and have some kinda blurring effect. It better on object closer to the screen, but when zoom in, The background images look noticeable softer than even FSR.
This is why I have issue with insomniac took out the sharpening pass. On Normal playing view not zoom, it's practically the same as DLSS abate a bit softer if you pixel peeping.
When zoom in, the image stability issue shows, and it is usually in the backgound so that even more unnoticeable when not zoom in 4x.
Also given how PSSR also do better in some edges. Best example is 17:54, the difference is better when zoom in favor of PSSR, but the image look a bit softer. Maybe some type of smoothing technique insomniac have implemented here not just took out the sharpening pass. Most PSSR titles demonstrate so far kinda opposite though.
I guess they want to go for the CG movie feel, but i prefer me some sharpness like 3 or 4 on the sharpness setting especially when sitting farther away on the couch.
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Thebonehead
Gold Member
I'd hazard a guess that most with 4090's will be upgrading to 5090's.
Bojji
Member
With PSSR PS5 Pro has overall better RT reflections in motion than DLSS 3.7 using CBR and slighlty better (with less aliasing) than DLSS 3.7 quality. Alex at this point with the 4 splitted comparison showing the best results for PSSR: "I need more time with PSSR"
The first is using CBR RT on PC. Clear win for PSSR.
But even against DLSS 3.7 quality, PSSR is the best, less aliasing and cleaner reflections in motion. Shocking honestly.
You "forgot" about full res reflections on PC:
And PSSR has motion trails on RT:
Topher
Identifies as young
Some? Sure. Most? No idea. Some buy top of the line GPUs because they believe it will be able to handle games for years to come. Nvidia has a bad habit of creating artificial conditions on new tech to motivate people to upgrade. That's why modders are having to pick up so much of their slack.
Mr Moose
Member
I think PS5 uses CBR reflections, unless it was updated with the Pro.You "forgot" about full res reflections on PC:
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
The entire point of PSSR and DLSS is that you get better image quality for less resources over all. Everything benefits from it. You’re working with a smaller frame buffer.
Unless you meant cost as in development time to integrate it into the game. We’ve heard from one anonymous and small studio that it’s simple to implement, but it might also depends on the version of the PlayStation SDK the game was compiled against as to whether it can even be used as far as “older” games go.
And what resources can be allocated to a game can often depend on the publisher. To bring an older game up to the latest version of the SDK and re-certify it might not be seen as worth it.
Bojji
Member
Yeah but PSSR seems to be integrated by devs into this while DLSS don't have the same access, That's why with RT CB reflections are cleaner with PSSR.
On the other hand, why they are still using CB reflections on hardware that is rumored to have 2-4x more RT power?
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Go to 10:28 seconds into the video. PSSR has noticeably less aliasing on the edges of the stairs and building
Yeah, it seems like there's Pros and Cons for both but I'm not seeing a clear victor honestly.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Cerny said 2-3x faster. As for why? Because this is a quick and dirty patch for an old game that had middling sales.
A fun comparison will be Spider-Man 2.
Bojji
Member
But they clearly had to do more work to properly integrate PSSR to work with CB reflections. Using full res reflections was probably easier.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Is SM2 getting a more robust patch? I think it will be quick and dirty just like R&C
MikeM
Member
I find it hilarious that the closest competitor to DLSS comes from console.
I’m pumped for the Pro to test this out myself and compare to my 7900xt.
Good job Sony. People can shit on them regarding remasters, but they are implementing tech investments everywhere. Dualsense, SSD, PSVR2 and now PSSR.
I’m pumped for the Pro to test this out myself and compare to my 7900xt.
Good job Sony. People can shit on them regarding remasters, but they are implementing tech investments everywhere. Dualsense, SSD, PSVR2 and now PSSR.
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Bojji
Member
Maybe with RT shadows? It was seen on the trailer.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Nothing was said yet, but I bet it will. Don't you find it odd how conspicuously absent it has been, with Rift Apart getting all the spotlight? I'm guessing they're cooking up something nice for it. It's also still selling very well and we're getting the PC version in a few months. Maybe they're adding some stuff that they will later port to PC? Just speculation on my part, but it will be at worst equal.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
True, and SM2 is a much bigger property/seller....so maybe they could justify a larger investment into the Pro patch.
I guess we'll find out.
PaintTinJr
Member
At their absolute limits at the far plane of the frustum comparing both techniques it seems like DLSS 3.7's colour accuracy inconsistency throughout is fully exposed at this point. And its anti-aliasing ability of small particles seems to be exceeded at this range too.
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
It's cheaper than rendering natively at a higher resolution, but it still comes at a significant cost in performance.
Running a game at an internal resolution of 1080p vs 1080p upscaled to 4K are going to have entirely different framerates. The former will have considerably higher frame rate.
There may also be cheaper ways to produce results that might not have as much of a visual payoff but still give you better performance.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Good catch, but is it because of DLSS? I never heard it about it having problems with color accuracy.
At their absolute limits at the far plane of the frustum comparing both techniques it seems like DLSS 3.7's colour accuracy inconsistency throughout is fully exposed at this point. And its anti-aliasing ability of small particles seems to be exceeded at this range too.
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Vick
Member
New TLOU Part II PSSR footage:
So goddamn good.
So goddamn good.
Not sure what I'm supposed to see in terms of color accuracy? Everything looks bordeline identical to me minus the sky, due to dynamic clouds, and some leaves, probably also dynamic.
There's much more full screen footage in it!
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
New TLOU Part II PSSR footage:
So goddamn good.
Are you sure that's new? I think it's just a cut from the video from two weeks ago.
PaintTinJr
Member
What? Which one? The lack of handling small particles? Or the colour inaccuracies in the entire image? but can be easiest seen at this extreme where the sky is definitely supposed to be blue, the top left bracket at the side is supposed to have another charcoal pixel to complete the shape, and the post metal panel next to it is supposed to be dynamically lit and shaded like the PSSR version.
