hououinkyouma00
Member
Looks great, and it's a breath of fresh air personally. AMD has been so disappointing lately, and it was hard to recommend any AMD card over Nvidia for years.
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DF: AMD FSR 4 Upscaling Tested vs DLSS 3/4 & - A Big Leap Forward - RDNA 4 Delivers!
- Thread starter Zuzu
- Start date
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Look who you're talking about... There's little reason to even discuss PSSR here, but here we are.
You again have people who are very angry that the PS5 Pro exists and that it's going to be the best device to play games on probably for the next 4 years (pound for pound).
That they don't realize that PSSR is ALSO going to evolve over the next 4 years (particularly with new hardware) is quite a statement. PSSR2 for lack of a better name will probably get all of the advantages of RDNA4/5.
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Playstation is my preferred platform so I want it do well looking at some previous comments fsr4 wasn't an option because of compatibility, can pssr be improved during this gen I was watching cerny df interview he wasn't clear
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Funny thing is PSSR was out competing with DLSS3 in its first iteration but somehow its bad to folks here lol
Also Cerny said that Sony asked for a targeted changes to RDNA2 arch before even releasing PS5 in 2020 just to implement their custom ML for Pro!
That's a company at the forefront of technology with one hell of R&D team! You can't say the same thing about Microsoft or Nintendo (lol)..its always Sony doing that!
They targeted 5.5GB SSD and created a custom port! before PCie4 was even a thing !! When they set a target they try to achieve it no matter the hurdles.
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Kataploom
Gold Member
What's funny is that if Nvidia hadn't come out with the new Transformer model, FSR would be superior
TheRedRiders
Member
Doesn't PSSR function on less than half the TOPS required for FSR 4 on the 9070/XT - I suspect there was design, silicon, power and cost considerations which is why Playstation developed their own custom solution rather than relying on AMD's FSR 4.
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Rosoboy19
Member
So AMD should just throw in the towel and let NVidia dominate even more?
I’m glad they didn’t think this way back in 2016 when Intel was cleaning their clock with CPU market share.
I’ve had my doubts that AMD could make a comeback too, but this launch gives me hope.
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SweetTooth
Gold Member
Its, which makes Sonys achievement all more impressive!
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Kings Field
Member
AMD and PISSER bless
Unknown Soldier
Member
So it turns out you really do need AI to do what DLSS does. I'm glad AMD finally figured it out. Now it's just a matter of will there be any of these GPU in stock. Scalpers have made it impossible to buy any Nvidia GPU, let's see how it goes for AMD
Zathalus
Member
DirectX is not the reason Black Myth and Alan Wake 2 perform so much better on Nvidia 4000/5000 series GPUs. It is due to Opacity Micromaps that was introduced with Ada that gives the performance boost with all the foliage tracing. SER and DMM help as well. Maybe the games can do with an update to take better advantage of RDNA4, but DirectX isn’t the problem here.
SolidQ
Member
I Mean for future, which can be use more efficency RTRT AMD solution. Microsoft should soon implement neural solutions
Sponsored games. We need wait AMD sponsored games. AMD already announce few Path Tracing games, which don't know
Zathalus
Member
I’m not sure on if that is the case. The 9070 XT number includes sparsity (confirmed by AMD) while the Pro number is unclear. No mention of sparsity was made in the Pro technical presentation. So like for like it may be 390 TOPs vs 300 TOPs.
No.
GHG
Gold Member
It would help for you to read all subsequent posts before responding.
rickybooby87
Member
Part of me doesn't think we'll get dedicated machine learning hardware for NextBox and PS6, mainly due to die space limitations and cost, While inferior, PlayStation's custom solution that makes use of larger vector registers, and custom instruction sets to execute machine learning related tasks like PSSR was really "outside of the box" thinking, and definitely is trading some performance for cost, but cost is the big factor.
Armchair prediction: PS6 60/64CU RDNA 3.5/4 Hybrid, GPU frequency of 2500mhz targeting around 1000+ INT-8 TOPS without using dedicated AI Cores/Tensor Cores, 30TF-40TF.
Armchair prediction: PS6 60/64CU RDNA 3.5/4 Hybrid, GPU frequency of 2500mhz targeting around 1000+ INT-8 TOPS without using dedicated AI Cores/Tensor Cores, 30TF-40TF.
Unknown Soldier
Member
AMD only (finally) moved to a portable DLL model with FSR 3.1, so all older FSR games can never be upgraded to FSR 4
But starting with FSR 3.1, games work like DLSS where there's a simple DLL you can replace to upgrade the FSR version
AMD paying for games to exclude DLSS was widely derided by the PC gaming community, especially back when FSR was fucking dogshit compared to DLSS, so I don't think they'll try to do that anymore. Especially since they don't want to start a sponsored games arms race with the much wealthier Nvidia
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winjer
Member
Dense and Sparsity only differ in the way they handle zeros in a matrix.
Dense still handles zeros as they are in a matrix. Sparsity doesn't consider them, it's like a compression algorithm.
So sparsity is faster in matrices with many zeros, while dense is faster in matrices with few zeros.
Also, sparsity uses less memory.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
For Playstation to control their own pace in this ML arena and not be held hostage to AMD ever again!
Wolzard
Member
We don't really know that they didn't.
It's 'custom' to their hardware - but noone is exactly releasing the spec of the instruction set added or anything else so it's all guesswork.
The Int8 throughput of RDNA4 matches up to PS5 Pro stated spec though - so unless you're on the DF bandwagon that claims Sony inflated their spec the NVidia way (contradicted by statements from Cerny - but hey, who knows), they are at least taking a similar approach to getting to those TOPs.
Pagusas
Elden Member
I don't buy midrange cards, only flagships, but if I was forced to build a budget machine, I'd go for a balance build with a 9700XT or try finding a well priced 4070 Super. The 5070TI's are just in a bad spot price wise. But I'm the idiot type that will buy a 3k GPU and throw a $500 water block on it, and be happy, so not good for budget shopping.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I think that's what Project Amethyst is really all about. If Sony wants to release a PS5 handheld it may have PSSR 2.0 on it. And by 2028 when Sony releases the PS6, PSSR might turn into Amethyst. Which may just end up being FSR 5.0 anyway.
Lol pound 4 pound? is this boxing?
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In what Ratchet and Clank when it was 1800p it came close to DLSS? You memory holing how at sub 1080p PSSR falls flat in games like Silent Hill 2 and Alan Wake 2?
PSSR is about as good as Xess, it's a step behind FSR4 and DLSS4.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
PSSR has already been improved since the Pro released. Sony has updated PSSR a handful of times. Each better than the last.
viveks86
Member
I think those discussing are well aware of this. The point being made is how TOPS is measured and communicated. If sparsity is considered as part of the calculation, effective TOPS is doubled, which is the number currently being circulated by Nvidia (and now AMD) for their cards. The assumption DF is making is that Cerny is using sparsity in his 300 TOPS number, when there was no such confirmation.
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Codeblew
Member
You are a very ignorant person if you think the phrase "Pound for pound" only applies to boxing.
If PS5 Pro was $499 you would have a point maybe. But for 700 or 800 (if you need a disc drive) it's not the best value. Spending up to 800 bucks on a new machine and not getting new goodies like path tracing is pretty silly.
Crayon
Member
At my viewing distance I might be able to push this down to performance. Rn I can only put FSR 3 on quality and even that looks a bit wooly. (1440)
Really good showing here from fsr4. Better than I expected.
These scalers will all converge at some point, though. Maybe even inside 5 years they'll all be perfect at these base resolutions. Then it'll be a race to see how low the base res can go.
Really good showing here from fsr4. Better than I expected.
These scalers will all converge at some point, though. Maybe even inside 5 years they'll all be perfect at these base resolutions. Then it'll be a race to see how low the base res can go.
TheRedRiders
Member
It's not just the TOPS metric, but it could be the case in regards to the specific ML hardware implementation both companies are using, it's possible that PSSR relies on less dedicated ML silicon than FSR 4 does and thus requiring less power (trade-off being slightly worse image quality), we know Sony are extremely fussy about how the console SoC's are designed (the famous example being the cutdown FPU units on the PS5's CPU).
This would also line up with several of Mark Cerny's comments about the Pro's ML implementation being heavily custom, if it was the same as RDNA 4 then it's likely he would have mentioned it as was the case with ray-tracing.
Again just speculation on my side, as I do wonder why Sony really went out their way to design their own ML based hardware and software solution, rather than just plucking it from AMD's feature set which could have been easier and maybe even saved them money. The only explanation I can think of us designing something which is more efficient respectively more efficient when considering power, budget and cost constraints.
Buggy Loop
Member
They already use some transformer model in FSR 4 by the way, according to the info so far they use an hybrid of CNN + Transformer for best of both worlds according to them. I think CNN staying in the solution might have been a bit too overstating "best of both worlds" but its a start.
I'm shocked they even have any transformer part in it. I think they can easily expand on it and improve further down the line. Wouldn't be surprised to see them close the gaps with DLSS 4 by end of 2025 or sometime 2026.
Along with their work on neural radiance cache path tracing, neural texture compressions and part of the HLSL consortium for neural vectors for neural shaders, AMD is not in the dark ages anymore. Whoever at AMD that changed position on these technologies needs a huge promotion.
I wonder if at some point microsoft will just say fuck it and this is the upscaler everyone uses in directX for example. They'll be very similar soon enough.
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Barakov
Member
Good on AMD on finally closing the gap.Seems to be a lot more performant than the Transformer model, at least in Rift Apart.
Honestly, the performance cost of DLSS4 is unacceptable in this case. It's 19% slower than DLSS3. Sure, you get much better IQ, but you're also knocked down an entire GPU class.
omegasc
Member
Does not mean the ML part was ready, as they stated it's a custom version. Maybe just to cut costs, maybe AMD had trouble finishing that part. But the fact is PS5 Pro ML is custom and can mean it's a mix between 4 and previous, or an entirely different thing.
Bojji
Member
PSSR is the worst ML upscaler. AMD delivered much better results on day one.
Sony fucked up, they should have waited for full RDNA4.
jm89
Member
And have an even more expensive console then they already have? Console market has not got the appetite for expensive consoles.
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Bojji
Member
Why more expensive? They have parts of different GPU architectures (including RDNA4!) in their Frankenstein GPU. I doubt price would change but console could launch later. And nothing of value would have been lost, almost nothing big released between pro launch and now.
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SKYF@ll
Member
*Cerny "We customized the AI accelerator so that 3x3 multiplication and accumulation at 8 bits can be performed in one cycle."
PS5 Pro(FP16) : 64 WMMA x 2 Elements x 2 (FLOP) x 2 AI Accelerator x 60 (CU) x 2.17GHz≒67 TFLOPS
PS5 Pro(FP8) : 64 WMMA×9 Elements* ×2（OP）×2 AI Accelerator×60 CU×2.17GHz≒300 TOPS
Sparsity is a process that efficiently eliminates the calculation of 0, separate from the above specifications, right?
It's difficult and I'm confused.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
You're fundamentally unserious.
- First you had to codify ML, because your argument doesn't stand up to reality otherwise
- There are no other consoles on the market with ML upscaling
- PSSR out of the gate is already better than non-ML upscaling
- And no, PSSR is far ahead of FSR1, do you know how we know that? Because PSSR is better than FSR3
- You don't understand why they didn't go with RDNA4
I've codified traditional console because the Switch 2 is going to be a hybrid and while it might have DLSS, it's still going to be significantly lower powered than the base PS5 despite the ML because of its nature of being a hybrid. Microsoft might drop a hybrid of their own, but it's unlikely to be sold for a loss or at cost like traditional consoles. This all goes to the nature of performance for the price.
By launching in 2024, Sony guaranteed itself to have the most compelling hardware for the price for the next 4 years, which is quite a long time in video games (generations used to be 5 years). This means the PS5 Pro is going to be the best buy on the market for years to come. When the PS5 family drops in price by 100 dollars after GTA6 launches and sales slow again, the PS5 Pro is going to be 600 dollars while the Switch 2 is probably going to be 400 dollars... The difference in these two devices is going to be tremendous through the end of the generation.
Time wasn't the only factor in not going with RDNA4. If you weren't just here for trolling and you were here to learn and absorb real information whether it lines up with your ideology or not, you'd have heard Cerny say exactly why they didn't use RDNA4. It would have meant developers would have had to create entirely new libraries for games they had already made or new games. It would have made developing for the PS5 Pro significantly harder and thus probably reduced the number of games that were Pro Enhanced. They took elements of RDNA3 and 4 and added it to their chipset, but largely kept the chipset the same, so the instructions are the same.
Again, it seems like many people's primary argument against the PS5 Pro (and PSSR) is that it isn't a PS6 and frankly that's just super lazy thinking.
And if the only advantage here of going with RDNA4 was the ability to use FSR4, it wouldn't have been worth it. Sony wants to have their own ML separate from AMD. It'll be very interesting to see if that pay dividends in future console competition when games are running on FSR4 on one system and PSSR on another. Not to mention that The PS6 is going to have a massive list of PS5 Pro games that it'll be able to enhance (4 years worth).
Holy shit did people actually use FSR 3.1? That looks like unrelenting dog shit. It's honestly so bad that it's not even worth testing.FSR 3.1 vs FSR4 in motion:
Unknown Soldier
Member
AMD users didn't have any choice the last 6 years
Why is why their market share has been in the toilet
Let's see how that changes now that FSR 4 exists
Lysandros
Member
We have yet to see FSR 4 running with 300 TOPs while producing superior results at similar processing cost per frame before declaring PSSR as an 'inferior' custom solution i think.
Why would Sony stick to RDNA 3/4 for PS6 in 2028?... This isn't Nintendo. It will surely incorporate hardware from the future/yet to be released AMD arc along with original customizations like in their past systems. PS5 PRO is already RDNA 4 when it come to RT hardware.
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rickybooby87
Member
I totally forgot about UDNA. You think 2028? I was thinking more along the likes of 26/27 with a healthy amount of cross generational support for the PS5.
yamaci17
Member
casual people won't care
my friend played black myth wukong with fsr set to perfrmance... at 1080p
I asked her like "how does the game look, any good?" (without any upscaling context by the way, she doesn't know anything about that stuff). she said, "hmm, it's fine idk"
another friend of mine don't even bother using "quality" mode as he thinks it will reduce his FPS. most people have no clue about how any of this works
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TrebleShot
Member
It makes PS5 pro look a little awkward when compared to the rest of the gaming landscape but still pretty good if talking about just Playstation consoles.