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[LordOfChaos]

Unreal Engine 5 has been around for many years. A lot of projects have been made on it, but developers still can't master it.Even five years after the release of this engine, we still get unoptimized games that don't work well even on top-of-the-line PCs.Have developers really not learned how to create games on Unreal Engine after all these years? Or is this a problem with all modern engines and technologies? And most importantly, why were developers able to do 15 years ago what modern developers are unable to do?

 

[cireza]

Infinite stack of middleware. Infinite level of abstraction.

 

[Fbh]

Have engines declined or have we reached the point of diminishing returns where we need massive amounts of extra power for the sake of increasingly smaller upgrades?

 

[diffusionx]

The problem is not modern game engines, it is one modern game engine, that being UE5. It's a piece of shit. Companies that use their own custom technology put out games that look better and run better without the technical issues. They may not have the same checklist of features but who cares if it comes at such a cost.

 

[pudel]

The problem is not modern game engines, it is one modern game engine, that being UE5. It's a piece of shit. Companies that use their own custom technology put out games that look better and run better without the technical issues. They may not have the same checklist of features but who cares if it comes at such a cost.

There also games which are nearly flawless with UE5....its possible!

 

[Hari Seldon]

Elite computer science grads are making 3x in other industries.

 

[Hyet]

Watched this a while ago, It's good.

Main problem with U5 is that how production is set up, devs are bound to do a terrible job with it most of the time. Producers like how it saves money and cuts time to produce early results but it's a very generalist toolset that it's used too broadly among devs teams. If you add time constraints ang the general complexity of game development It's very hard to get really good result with it performance wise unless the scope is reduced or there is a team dedicated to keeping everything in line in regards to how it's used and optimizing in a general sense during the bulk of development until the project is feature complete and then optimize further until gold.

There's also the issue of many people being to use it but very few people knowing it deeply. There's a good base of knowledge that can transfer from UE4, good progammers but then you let tons of people start implementing on their own because "blueprints are so easy" and "it fits our agile workflow better" and such and you end up with a ton of work that's already in there but will take a ton of time to optimize and properly set up. But that's the thing you have the least of, time. So finally the game ends up shipping like that the only hope is being able to sort something out in a future update.

 

[iamvin22]

I always tell people to watch this video. Hurts to see the path devs are going these days.

 

[Magic Carpet]

While I was playing Keeper recently I realized that many games seem to use the same enemy effect of a moving blobby mass.
Keeper, The Gunk, Control, Returnal and many others.
A generic special effect, a cheap option for many developers who don't want to bother making an actual animated character model.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Watched this a while ago, It's good.

Main problem with U5 is that how production is set up, devs are bound to do a terrible job with it most of the time. Producers like how it saves money and cuts time to produce early results but it's a very generalist toolset that it's used too broadly among devs teams. If you add time constraints ang the general complexity of game development It's very hard to get really good result with it performance wise unless the scope is reduced or there is a team dedicated to keeping everything in line in regards to how it's used and optimizing in a general sense during the bulk of development until the project is feature complete and then optimize further until gold.

There's also the issue of many people being to use it but very few people knowing it deeply. There's a good base of knowledge that can transfer from UE4, good progammers but then you let tons of people start implementing on their own because "blueprints are so easy" and "it fits our agile workflow better" and such and you end up with a ton of work that's already in there but will take a ton of time to optimize and properly set up. But that's the thing you have the least of, time. So finally the game ends up shipping like that the only hope is being able to sort something out in a future update.

A lot of studios relied excessively on rotating contractors to reduce costs and DevEx is over emphasised. ("It fits my workflow" despite not helping the final result to say the least yeah, totally believable, find it hard to find many devs that place the outcome above all, often it is the other way around). Sigh…

 

[SnapShot]

Tell me you know jack shit about game engines without telling me you know jack shit about game engines: (insert OP Video here)

 

[winjer]

Games used to be made by passionate people, that loved games and tech.
Now most games are made by purple haired people that hate games and are more interested in political propaganda.

There used to be several game engines, each tailored specifically for the game the studio was making.
Now most studios just use Unreal Crap 5, often with little extra optimization.

Diminishing returns. After a certain point, adding more pixels, triangles, texels, shaders, nets smaller and smaller return in image quality.

Most games now are released in a beta state. Sometimes, an alpha state. As studios rely more and more in patching things at a later date.

Idiot journalists that give out great scores, even if the game runs like crap. So studios don't feel as much pressure to release polished games.

 

[Liopleurodon]

Funny, games look better than ever, IMO.

 

[Thief1987]

There also games which are nearly flawless with UE5....its possible!

Examples?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Games used to be made by passionate people, that loved games and tech.
Now most games are made by purple haired people that hate games and are more interested in political propaganda.

There used to be several game engines, each tailored specifically for the game the studio was making.
Now most studios just use Unreal Crap 5, often with little extra optimization.

Diminishing returns. After a certain point, adding more pixels, triangles, texels, shaders, nets smaller and smaller return in image quality.

Most games now are released in a beta state. Sometimes, an alpha state. As studios rely more and more in patching things at a later date.

Idiot journalists that give out great scores, even if the game runs like crap. So studios don't feel as much pressure to release polished games.

Also, a lot of users, see here too, that used to mock bullshots routinely praise still screenshots to high heavens even in games where (we know, they are based on UE5 and we know what to expect now… yet…) motion IQ is not great, visuals are stutters and full of artefacts, etc… professional game bloggers are partially feeding it and partially responsible for it.

 

[KungFucius]

Games used to be made by passionate people, that loved games and tech.
Now most games are made by purple haired people that hate games and are more interested in political propaganda.

There used to be several game engines, each tailored specifically for the game the studio was making.
Now most studios just use Unreal Crap 5, often with little extra optimization.

Diminishing returns. After a certain point, adding more pixels, triangles, texels, shaders, nets smaller and smaller return in image quality.

Most games now are released in a beta state. Sometimes, an alpha state. As studios rely more and more in patching things at a later date.

Idiot journalists that give out great scores, even if the game runs like crap. So studios don't feel as much pressure to release polished games.

Everyone is a moron except for the person who grossly generalizes things based on hateful stereotypes of minorities?

 

[Clear]

Another day, another retarded fucking YT video by some dribbling fuckwit without sufficient technical understanding or historical perspective to deserve to speak on these matters.

And once again I find myself wanting to grab every clown who cries about (lack of) optimization and shove them face-first into a dictionary and get them to absorb the meaning of the word.

Optimization is relative to what is being done, not the aggregate result on-screen.

 

[Critical Hit]

A lot of projects have been made on it, but developers still can't master it.Even five years after the release of this engine, we still get unoptimized games that don't work well even on top-of-the-line PCs.

GSC (the developers of stalker) couldn't master their own engine.

Have developers really not learned how to create games on Unreal Engine after all these years?

No all of them.

why were developers able to do 15 years ago what modern developers are unable to do?

Because baked (static) GI is less resource-intensive than dynamic.

 

[6502]

Not so much diminishing returns as declining effort and capability.

And they have the cheek to charge extra and require ever costly hardware to run. Oh and now we wait forever for release.

It is no wonder the hobby feels so stale compared to 15 / 20 years ago. The majority of games are literally going backwards. We grew up eating steaks and now we are told how awesome these microwave hamburgers are.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

why were developers able to do 15 years ago what modern developers are unable to do?

I wonder if something about the hiring criteria has changed... a true mistery!

 

[ADiTAR]

I think people have lost the ability to solve problems. Helicopter parenting and over protectiveness caused a generation to basically wait for someone to solve shit for them while they just cry they don't know what to do.

You're a manager of a 10 person team, and you're literally running a kindergarten. That you need to hand hold everyone and everything, so you end up with mediocre product because you need to solve everything for these people who can not think for themselves. Not to mention they think they are amazing, and should be constantly rewarded with praise.

Plus, the good ones are prob making more money else where.

 

[Soren01]

The problem is always the developers. Even if the engine is bad, they're the ones who chose it

 

[Astray]

Thanks to OP for bringing this youtuber to my attention so I can put him in the ignore realm with Threat Interactive.

 

[Paasei]

I am not a developer so I don't know. However what I feel/think is the following:

Engines are very convenient/efficient now. If you know a little over the basics you already get very far and make a game look and play fine to even good.

Optimising is a whole other story. That requires true in-depth knowledge, but because of the above developers seem go think that knowledge is required. You just rent the license of an engine and do your thing. Building something from the ground up and therefore optimising is becoming a lost art.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I think people have lost the ability to solve problems. Helicopter parenting and over protectiveness caused a generation to basically wait for someone to solve shit for them while they just cry they don't know what to do.

Just you wait... AI will fix all the problems!!! Who needs a brain when a machine can think for them.

It's a logic consequence that the more you rely on someone else to sort things out, the more incompetent you become.

 

[Wildebeest]

Unreal Engine is so big that you can now make a career just from hating unreal engine. But game performance is about compromises and knowledge of how the engine actually works. No matter the engine, if artists are never forced to make compromises, and they have no clue how the tech works, they will happily produce assets that can kill the performance of any sort of system.

 

[deeptech]

Everyone is a moron except for the person who grossly generalizes things based on hateful stereotypes of minorities?

I don't think it is hating on minorities, but the fact that those involved in game dev are incompetent, uncreative, impassionate people. Political purple shit smearing is then added on top. Problem is the complete attitude of industry towards its products, money over art and soul.

 

[simpatico]

UE5 is worse than most think because of what it is doing to the industry from a structural standpoint. All the developers and publishers are losing their tools and becoming dependent on Epic. The ramifications for this could really stunt the medium.

As someone trying to hold onto native rendering sanity, UE5 is a demon. There are games that looks broken if you DON'T use upscaling. STALKER 2 is maybe the best example. Everything looks like it has been kissed with the Mario Paint spray can tool if you don't have scaling on. Like a screen door of ambient occlusion. Just tried the demo for Last Caretaker, an amazing game hamstrung by its engine, and it is also affected by the weird screen door effect. But all the little annoying shit like that is minor compared to the institutional implications of the technical ability going away.

 

[pudel]

Examples?

Just recently....Arc Raiders.

 

[Fbh]

The problem is always the developers. Even if the engine is bad, they're the ones who chose it

To be fair though, it's not like there are that many options left.
Specially for smaller devs that don't have the resources to create their own engines, what other readily available engines are there? Unity, which as far as I know isn't great for more complex visuals, and maybe Cryengine?
Stuff like Decima, Anvil, Frostbite, etc are all proprietary and not open to third parties.

What's a real shame though is when we see devs like CDPR and 343/Halo Studios dropping their own engines in favor of UE5

 

[Thief1987]

Just recently....Arc Raiders.

It doesn't use nor lumen, nor nanite, that's the whole secret of its good performance.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I blame Unreal Engine 5 and I also blame developers for buying into the bullshit of that shitty engine.

Crytek's engine, id tech and Decima have all been far more reliable and have produced far more stable games.

I can't get over how bad Unreal Engine has been. Even older games like Borderlands 3 and Arkham Knight have horrible stutters.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Amazing how things get worse, Havok engine was under a hate bubble now everyone wants it, developers fantasize about the "unreal engine" and it does murder but I see generic AI I can't go into particulars, Naughty Dog Engine 2.0 shits on today's engines, Frostbite 2 handled things.

 

[ReyBrujo]

It's all about time. Schedules are tighter now and competition is fearsome, so people use certain features from frameworks they might have not in the past. Also as UE adds more features producers and developers use them to, well, release faster.

 

[pudel]

It doesn't use nor lumen, nor nanite, that's the whole secret of its good performance.

Okay...than dont use lumen or nanite when these features are troublesome. Its not like Arc raiders looks shit. It looks great imho.

 

[Hypereides]

I always tell people to watch this video. Hurts to see the path devs are going these days.

Putting this up in front newer AAA industry folks is like putting up a cross or dangling a piece of garlic in front of a vampire.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

Unreal Engine 5 has been around for many years. A lot of projects have been made on it, but developers still can't master it.Even five years after the release of this engine, we still get unoptimized games that don't work well even on top-of-the-line PCs.Have developers really not learned how to create games on Unreal Engine after all these years? Or is this a problem with all modern engines and technologies? And most importantly, why were developers able to do 15 years ago what modern developers are unable to do?

That line & editing at 17s in made me lol

 

[iamvin22]

Putting this up in front newer AAA industry folks is like putting up a cross or dangling a piece of garlic in front of a vampire.

A yo I'm just saying. The industry is regressing. We are paying more and getting less.

 

[Hypereides]

A yo I'm just saying. The industry is regressing. We are paying more and getting less.

Hey, I'm not disagreeing at all my man. I'm absolutely on the same page with you on that. I was just insinuating a mild joke that the newer and younger crowd of developers would hesitate (or, get "terrified") to pull off something like that in AAA now. Modern AAA games are deeply lifeless. Priorities are misplaced.

 

[Parazels]

Aren't we talking about a law of nature in tech? The more complex a thing is, the more vulnerable it becomes.

 

[Wolzard]

It's not the technology.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

Have engines declined or have we reached the point of diminishing returns where we need massive amounts of extra power for the sake of increasingly smaller upgrades?

I always tell people to watch this video. Hurts to see the path devs are going these days.

Watching the Resident Evil VIII footage at 3mins in where the player's kiting Lady Dimitrescu around the sofas and table made me think of how freaky and cool it'd be if devs made it so stalker enemies could convincingly climb over/push through objects in their way.

 

[Killer8]

Entire channel is brainrot.

 

[Thief1987]

Okay...than dont use lumen or nanite when these features are troublesome. Its not like Arc raiders looks shit. It looks great imho.

Well, the thing is that these two are the pillars of UE5, without them there aren't much reasons to choose it over, say, UE4. When the only way to get reasonable performance from your engine is to disable features that make your engine what it is, then your engine is garbage.

 

[Kataploom]

Elite computer science grads are making 3x in other industries.

I think I earn more in south America as an Enterprise targeted software dev than many game dev in the US, no kidding, I once saw the salaries for game dev, but IDK if they grew because of the inflation there

 

[diffusionx]

Well, the thing is that these two are the pillars of UE5, without them there aren't much reasons to choose it over, say, UE4. When the only way to get reasonable performance from your engine is to disable features that make your engine what it is, then your engine is garbage.

If I was making a new game this gen, UE4 would be much preferable yes.

But I also think Epic explicitly makes it harder to continue to use an older engine.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

.

Idiot journalists that give out great scores, even if the game runs like crap. So studios don't feel as much pressure to release polished games.

Absolutely true... Just like Meristation. I even argued about the Cyberpunk 2077 review for PS4 and I won the argument against the editor-in-chief. He gave it a 10, and I told him not to be so stupid...

How could he give it that score? I don't remember if they blocked me or not...

The same thing happened with Pokémon Violet...

They gave it a 9, despite its poor performance.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Mario 64, 1996 game running on N64 (0.0001 TFLOPS, no hardware RT)

Silent Hill 2, 2001 game running on PS2 (0.0062 TFLOPS, no hardware RT)

Silent Hill 2, 2024 game running on PS5 (10.28 TFLOPS with hardware RT available)

 

[Thief1987]

Mario 64, 1996 game running on N64 (0.0001 TFLOPS, no hardware RT)

Silent Hill 2, 2001 game running on PS2 (0.0062 TFLOPS, no hardware RT)

Silent Hill 2, 2024 game running on PS5 (10.28 TFLOPS with hardware RT available)

Alan Wake 2 with path tracing running on the latest tech $1000+ GPU

 

[DaciaJC]

Some game, I dunno: