(Digital Foundry) At What Point Did Xbox Lose the Current-Gen Console War?
- Thread starter Artistic
- Start date
Horseganador
Member
They never had a chance after so many mistakes made over the years. The Xbox case is a case study in how you can do so badly with almost unlimited money and end up like this.
Fess
Member
Yup.
But day 1 wasn't it for me, first ones came late but they still set the tone for what's to come. It was more or less known that PC ports would arrive and they would run and look better than on console. Xbox quickly became a BC and Gamepass solution for the living room and a low end device for Microsoft IPs in general.
They could have recovered after the 2013 Xbone reveal. But they have just failed to deliver time and time again with games. For years all we heard was "we hear you and have to do better" from Phil. Yet they never did better. After years of waiting we got trash like Redfall. The bottom line is they needed 1st party output like Sony and couldn't do it.
Hell, they could have just stayed a Halo, Gears, Forza machine but they screwed that up too.
Hell, they could have just stayed a Halo, Gears, Forza machine but they screwed that up too.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Infinite money only allow you to retry as many times as it takes. But if they keep repeating the same mistakes then infinite retries doesn't help.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
I feel like there is never a sober analysis of this because fanboys just pile on with their takes. I don't even think this generation was bad for Xbox in terms of games. I don't think Sony had some upper hand in that area.
Xbox never really had a global footprint like Sony did. They basically lost what they had gained with 360(which was largely in the Anglosphere) and then just never recovered...especially in the regions that it never had a strong foothold to begin with. Digital libraries basically getting locked in the PS4/Xbox One generation just made everything harder on top of it.
I also think Xbox's failure isn't as bad as it's even made out to be. Their "failures" are still better than Sega's numbers and the equivalent of some of Nintendo's generations.
Xbox never really had a global footprint like Sony did. They basically lost what they had gained with 360(which was largely in the Anglosphere) and then just never recovered...especially in the regions that it never had a strong foothold to begin with. Digital libraries basically getting locked in the PS4/Xbox One generation just made everything harder on top of it.
I also think Xbox's failure isn't as bad as it's even made out to be. Their "failures" are still better than Sega's numbers and the equivalent of some of Nintendo's generations.
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Fbh
Member
They abadoned core gamers to chase the casual crowd which allowed PS3 to make a comeback.
Then they doubled down with the X1, making it $100 more expensive despite having weaker hardware, for the sake of launching with Kinect.
By the time they brought their focus back to core gaming it was too late.
The Series consoles had an uphill battle because PS5 had the big advantage of allowing the much bigger PS4 user base to carry over their games, saves, trophies, etc. And MS didn't even have a compelling list of launch exclusives to make an argument as to why anyone should switch over from playstation.
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RoboFu
One of the green rats
I would say it was inevitable after everyone from the initial Xbox left. No one there has any idea about what makes a games good. But just this gen they just put out one mediocre game after another and didn't put any hype behind the few good games they had ( like hi fi rush )
But honestly I think they had already decided to start focusing on just being a service on all devices last gen.
But honestly I think they had already decided to start focusing on just being a service on all devices last gen.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Xbox Series X 4K UHD playback is very inferior to PS5.
PS5 can do 12 bit YCBR444 color gamut while Xbox Series X can only do 10 bit RGB. Also Xbox Series X skips frames. Xbox has a PC centric design.
Neither support Dolby Vision. Xbox Series X dolby vision for apps is also very inferior.
Meanwhile the PS5 4K blu player is toe to toe with the best 4K blu players at much lower price.
You literally have to pause in certain scenes and zoom in to see the difference.
Also, the Xbox Series X 4K Blu Player is region locked and PS5 4K Blu Ray Player is not region locked for 4K UHD discs. For Blu rays and DVDs, you can install custom firmware in PS3 and PS4 to play Blu rays and DVDs from all regions. Since Xbox One can't be modded, it will always be an inferior blu ray player.
PS5, PS4 and PS3 are way better media machines.
alabtrosMyster
Member
Nintendo and Sony are under the same pressure.
They're the ones that manage the studios and recruit talent. If they can't hire good people and put them in an environment where they can strive and deliver the best games to hype their platform it's part of why they failed as executives.
You have to reign in your MBAs, not all their advice is good.
Artistic
Member
I said app support and you're arguing about a physical blu-ray player I don't use for movies...
alabtrosMyster
Member
That took these releases for you to realize?
alabtrosMyster
Member
Not having a global footprint is on them, Windows, MS Office and Azure all have global footprint.
HYDE
Member
This is the correct answer…economics.
HYDE
Member
I think that RROD did that first. Who wants to gamble buying the new console with that in mind…plus that ONE unveil…yikes
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
Maybe. The Japanese seem to just prefer Japanese companies. I'm not sure anything could be done there.
Europe theoretically should be a competitive space. Microsoft probably just didn't do enough advertising.
Sony has always advertised at soccer stadiums in Europe and I think people just associate the Fifa games with Playstation.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Overall media playback on Xbox is inferior to PS5. I don't know why you are implying that PS5 has less app support. The ones you mentioned, YouTube and Twitch, are on PS5. Ultimately both consoles will have inferior app support to Android TV which is built in to Sony Bravia TVs.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
This is actually false because Japanese love their iPhones over Sony Xperia phones. None of the Japanese smartphone brands dethroned the iPhone in Japan. Same with TVs, Sony is losing to Chinese TVs
China TV brands win more than half Japan's market for first time
Hisense, TCL beat Sony, Panasonic in their home with cheap prices
asia.nikkei.com
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
They started the gen further behind than most would like to admit.
Halo Infinite not being a generational game was the final nail in the coffin.
Halo Infinite not being a generational game was the final nail in the coffin.
MrTired
Member
PS2 had a whole bunch of exclusive. Third party multi-platform games that we think of now were nearly all exclusive to the PS2. Final fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, GTA, Devil May Cry etc. If were talking first party exclusive that's a different conversation.
Artistic
Member
I'm implying it because it does, as someone who's owned and navigated both console dashboards.
That's nice to know about Android TVs and Sony Bravias, but not everyone owns one. I don't for sure.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
They are coping. Paying to play online, releasing exclusives to PC, live service focus, Xbox has negatively influenced Playstation.
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.001
For me when Microsoft introduced those avatars in 2008 is when it stated to do downhill, trying to get that Wii mii energy,
Than they changed the dashboard which was a huge question mark.
With Xbox one they didn't pull any triggers, Gears 4, and Halo 5 were question marks and didn't progress things in a meaningful way.
I think series x has progression in terms of hardware, the backwards compatibility but I don't know how to feel about its exclusives, it's weird halo infinite has this weird energy, gears 5 isn't the one to fire people up, Forza Motorsport seems to being going the wrong way with no soundtrack and you see M$ entering the handheld game now they're advocates for streaming through Samsung tv, and they have the nerve to up their subscription service and raise their console prices.
lughnasadh123
Member
The moment they couldn't give a convincing answer of why you should buy an Xbox over a Playstation.
LordCBH
Member
Xbox spent a decade promising bangers of games
Scalebound
Crackdown
Halo
Forza
Fable
Perfect Dark
Redfall
Starfield
Everwild
Sea of Thieves
The only ones on that list that actually delivered were Forza (Horizon at least continues to deliver. Mainline Forza fucking died), and Sea of Thieves. Everything else was either cancelled, or released as dog shit. Except Fable. They're still promising fable but showing fucking nothing.
Hell, their slam dunk halo collection was completely fucking broken when it came out and was broken for years.
At the end of the day, it's all about games, and the people in charge of Xbox don't know what a good game is. Ghouls like Spencer and Booty have been there for years and done exactly nothing except hurt the brand and the fans.
You can overcome a LOT of errors and missteps if you have the games. And they didn't. And when they finally recognized that it was too late.
Scalebound
Crackdown
Halo
Forza
Fable
Perfect Dark
Redfall
Starfield
Everwild
Sea of Thieves
The only ones on that list that actually delivered were Forza (Horizon at least continues to deliver. Mainline Forza fucking died), and Sea of Thieves. Everything else was either cancelled, or released as dog shit. Except Fable. They're still promising fable but showing fucking nothing.
Hell, their slam dunk halo collection was completely fucking broken when it came out and was broken for years.
At the end of the day, it's all about games, and the people in charge of Xbox don't know what a good game is. Ghouls like Spencer and Booty have been there for years and done exactly nothing except hurt the brand and the fans.
You can overcome a LOT of errors and missteps if you have the games. And they didn't. And when they finally recognized that it was too late.
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Seiryu21
Member
The main difference between Microsoft and the other console makers is that Microsoft is unable to create games people will buy a console for.
The only successful franchise they were able to create was Forza. They literally bought everything else. That's not sustainable and the main reason that Xbox is a money black hole.
Say what you want about Sony but they have shown that they can create successfull game franchises when they get desperate enough. Nintendo too.
Xbox is the only one lacking the talent to bounce back with what they already own.
The only successful franchise they were able to create was Forza. They literally bought everything else. That's not sustainable and the main reason that Xbox is a money black hole.
Say what you want about Sony but they have shown that they can create successfull game franchises when they get desperate enough. Nintendo too.
Xbox is the only one lacking the talent to bounce back with what they already own.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
If Microsoft is guilty of anything it's that it didn't develop and foster nerd content to the same extent lol. Sony has capeshit. Nintendo is a lock in with weaboo's.
Seiryu21
Member
Microsoft is guilty of lacking the talent to attract any fanbase. I agree.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
The difference is that shooters and racers are not are not targeting a demographic that are going to be "gaming as a hobby" lifers as more nerd centric content does.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Neither consoles can compete with Android TV or Apple TV. None of the consoles are meant to be Nvidia Shield/Apple TV replacement, no one gets these consoles for media playback. You still have not clarified on how PS5 is inferior for streaming media than Xbox.
Seiryu21
Member
I don't understand how this really refutes anything I'm saying. All of Microsoft's games are bland and usually done better by 3rd parties. They can only buy things people are already interested in and hope for the best.
PlayStaytion
Member
Nobody talks about store localization, I heard from YTs it's politics and nobody talks about this topic.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The root cause is that Xbox management has always lacked a clear vision.
You can see this from the late 360 era onwards, when it was clear the market was shifting away from the things they had built their successes on earlier in the gen and yet they did nothing to adjust. They assumed annual Halo, Gears and Forza were always going to be enough to support their core, and the route to the broader market was via motion controlled family games and plastic-instrument based music titles.
When all these things fell off... they stubbornly stuck with this approach in terms of content as they were at that stage balls-deep into their masterplan to make the Xbox One this monetizable universal media bulwark. Hence the whole TV TV TV push.
Unfortunately for them, this failed on every level as a resurgent Sony went on a charm offensive to court back core gamers they had lost in the PS3 era.
Everything that's happened since has been a consequence of that, mainly because MS have never really cared about or understood gaming, they just looked upon it jealously as another revenue stream that could be used as a tentpole around which to build a comprehensive consumer entertainment offer.
The methods and approach have changed over the years, but that fundamental flawed intent has been a constant. Its all just been a means to a larger end, which is why they've pivoted so hard and often and yet very little has actually changed.
You can see this from the late 360 era onwards, when it was clear the market was shifting away from the things they had built their successes on earlier in the gen and yet they did nothing to adjust. They assumed annual Halo, Gears and Forza were always going to be enough to support their core, and the route to the broader market was via motion controlled family games and plastic-instrument based music titles.
When all these things fell off... they stubbornly stuck with this approach in terms of content as they were at that stage balls-deep into their masterplan to make the Xbox One this monetizable universal media bulwark. Hence the whole TV TV TV push.
Unfortunately for them, this failed on every level as a resurgent Sony went on a charm offensive to court back core gamers they had lost in the PS3 era.
Everything that's happened since has been a consequence of that, mainly because MS have never really cared about or understood gaming, they just looked upon it jealously as another revenue stream that could be used as a tentpole around which to build a comprehensive consumer entertainment offer.
The methods and approach have changed over the years, but that fundamental flawed intent has been a constant. Its all just been a means to a larger end, which is why they've pivoted so hard and often and yet very little has actually changed.
Jibran#one
Member
They could've fought this gen with the amount of money they had , but they just white flagged and gave up
The games when they finally came out they went full multiplatform.
Activision games not releasing on playstation wouldn't have made a dent ?
The games when they finally came out they went full multiplatform.
Activision games not releasing on playstation wouldn't have made a dent ?
nah thats phil's idiotic go-to excuse to still blame mattrick after more than a decade. he did much worse than him while wasting an extra 100billion on top.
also for someone believing in the importance of "digital libraries" he sure managed to kill them on xbox by turning whole business to a rental service.
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Ar¢tos
Member
Saying it's not a good example but not justifying why is pointless.
PS1 then? (maybe it fits the parameters that you don't reveal)
Killer8
Member
Buying Activision was the exact moment they lost.
Of course you can chart failings back to the Xbox One - it was a misstep for all the reasons people have already mentioned. But it wasn't the death knell and it didn't guarantee further failure. It sold short, yes, around 58 million units, but that still doesn't get us to the Xbox Series levels of failure today (under 30 million units).
Missteps can be corrected. Sony and Nintendo have both had theirs and successfully pivoted. Microsoft even dug their own hole deeper by having no exclusives ready for the Series launch. But I think despite all of that, Xbox was still surviving okay for the first few years of the generation. Part of that was being a beneficiary of Sony's console and library shortages. In 2021, it felt like Xbox truly had the better lineup over PS5 with Halo Infinite (GAF GOTY 2021 btw), Forza Horizon 5 and MSFS. Thanks to the stylish Series S, they even managed to start selling the brand to Japan again (five times as many sales as the One).
Xbox heading into 2023 was looking optimistic. When you looked at those Klobrille marketing graphics, you couldn't help but feel the brand was in a strong position with Halo, Gears, Forza Horizon, MSFS, Fable, Starfield, Elder Scrolls, Doom, plus all the other smaller games they had.
Then they felt the need to acquire Activision.
Call of Duty as an Xbox exclusive sounded massive on paper but actually fulfilling that was never going to be easy. Too much lost revenue for everyone involved. As soon as that 10 year deal to keep the games on PlayStation dropped, any advantage Xbox could glean from the deal evaporated.
I won't go so far as to say the deal was pointless, as Microsoft's gaming division basically bought a money printer which has propped them up ever since. But it absolutely killed Xbox. Why? Because there was now a $69 billion hole in their pocket needing plugged. Satya Nadella and Amy Hood, answering to their shareholders, wanted a return on investment as soon as possible. That basically meant going multiplatform to maximize profits.
And with that, there was now zero reason to buy Xbox hardware. Console sales understandably collapsed soon after.
Of course you can chart failings back to the Xbox One - it was a misstep for all the reasons people have already mentioned. But it wasn't the death knell and it didn't guarantee further failure. It sold short, yes, around 58 million units, but that still doesn't get us to the Xbox Series levels of failure today (under 30 million units).
Missteps can be corrected. Sony and Nintendo have both had theirs and successfully pivoted. Microsoft even dug their own hole deeper by having no exclusives ready for the Series launch. But I think despite all of that, Xbox was still surviving okay for the first few years of the generation. Part of that was being a beneficiary of Sony's console and library shortages. In 2021, it felt like Xbox truly had the better lineup over PS5 with Halo Infinite (GAF GOTY 2021 btw), Forza Horizon 5 and MSFS. Thanks to the stylish Series S, they even managed to start selling the brand to Japan again (five times as many sales as the One).
Xbox heading into 2023 was looking optimistic. When you looked at those Klobrille marketing graphics, you couldn't help but feel the brand was in a strong position with Halo, Gears, Forza Horizon, MSFS, Fable, Starfield, Elder Scrolls, Doom, plus all the other smaller games they had.
Then they felt the need to acquire Activision.
Call of Duty as an Xbox exclusive sounded massive on paper but actually fulfilling that was never going to be easy. Too much lost revenue for everyone involved. As soon as that 10 year deal to keep the games on PlayStation dropped, any advantage Xbox could glean from the deal evaporated.
I won't go so far as to say the deal was pointless, as Microsoft's gaming division basically bought a money printer which has propped them up ever since. But it absolutely killed Xbox. Why? Because there was now a $69 billion hole in their pocket needing plugged. Satya Nadella and Amy Hood, answering to their shareholders, wanted a return on investment as soon as possible. That basically meant going multiplatform to maximize profits.
And with that, there was now zero reason to buy Xbox hardware. Console sales understandably collapsed soon after.
Starbuck2907
Member
They didn't lose it this gen. They lost it when the Xbox came be was announced, was underpowered, was going to have always online drm, and came bundled with Kinect 2.0. They destroyed all their Xbox 360 goodwill in one press conference.
They really never recovered. I say this as someone who prefers Xbox.
They really never recovered. I say this as someone who prefers Xbox.
RetroGamingUK
Member
It has huge potential to bring in money for Microsoft.
But surely you can see why it lead to the demise of Xbox consoles.
alabtrosMyster
Member
Again, if you want to conquer a market it's on you to find a way to be relevant in there.
Sony didn't just happen to be associated with FIFA (I'm sure MS made serious efforts to get that going too).
Personally I know that after the PS3 me and my buddies were about to get whatever the next Xbox was going to be, for various reasons, some for CoD, the Xbox arcade/larger indies, some of the buzz around their own IPs, and better 3rd party support/performance of the 360.
Now they launched a weaker console, wich cost $100 more (think about it weaker AND significantly more expensive)... Then Sony showed a friendlier side, the indies at the reveal (MS dropped that completely, they even added restrictions on who could publish on their new console), the amazing PS4 performance compared the xbone. We all ended up getting PS4s and even those who had 360s jumped ship in the end. Not only that but Sony had delivered much more toward the end of the PS360 era, so that built trust.
That's before Phil even cancelled scalebound and a few of their high potential exclusive games and started blabbering about business models and gamepass.
Zekra Dezivad
Member
When Sony released the PS2 in 2000
ShadowkillXNA
Member
FalconPunch
Member
Appointing Phil Spencer as head of Xbox. The Matrick fiasco was recoverable. What wasn't recoverable was 2 whole generations of no good games. Xbox one had no good exclusives and Xbox series has no good exclusives.
You render your console irrelevant if you don't have any good exclusives and your games can be played elsewhere.
You render your console irrelevant if you don't have any good exclusives and your games can be played elsewhere.
ShadowkillXNA
Member
WTF is with the incessant "b b b but Sony too!" in so many threads that are specifically about xbox/microsoft?
Can you people not handle a discussion about criticism about your favorite things without bringing everyone else into it?
This thread is about a video about xbox's failures. Thats it.
Xbox brought all their issues on themselves, and their competition isnt having the same issues.
The fact they aren't should clue some in but for some reason it doesn't.