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[-Nicko-]

The Dreamcast was hindered by consumer mistrust from the 32x and sega saturn. Two burns in a row made it a tall order to give a third crack at it.

Sony running dvd's was a humongous advantage at the time, and the rumors leading up to the ps2 launch kept some from giving the dreamcast a chance. Old time gaffers may remember the rumor that the ps2 "emotion engine" had processor power so fast that it could develop momentary consciousness. Brilliantly played.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The launch price of Dreamcast (£199 here in the UK) made it such a low risk investment and games like Soul Calibur and Code Veronica should have had big appeal to non-Sega fans.

I was always going to get a PS2 eventually, but it never put me off buying a Dreamcast.

I think by 1999 Sega's reputation with the mainstream was either one of mistrust or just apathy, that put people off regardless of PS2 hype.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Magical stuff right there!!

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I bought a Dreamcast for $200 and two weeks later Sega announced they were dropping out of the hardware business and Dreamcasts were going for $100 or less. Poor kid me.

But I had a blast with Tony Hawk 2, Jet Grind Radio, Crazy Taxi 2, and Shenmue, so it all worked out.

 

[Unknown?]

I bought a Dreamcast for $200 and two weeks later Sega announced they were dropping out of the hardware business and Dreamcasts were going for $100 or less. Poor kid me.

But I had a blast with Tony Hawk 2, Jet Grind Radio, Crazy Taxi 2, and Shenmue, so it all worked out.

Such a great system, despite its lack of time on the market. If it had a full 5/6 years, I feel it would have rivaled PS2's library.

 

[Fat Frog]

Booooom, here comes the Booooom!

Thanks Esppiral for proving Virtua Fighter 4 could have been done on DC.

Dear Gaffers, how can we make this actually happen?

Ouch! All alone...
Imagine with GTA3 team.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Magical stuff right there!!

Would need to go from 30fps to 60fps to work as a game, but still impressive.

 

[Fat Frog]

We haven't seen anything yet

 

[JackHanma]

There was a reason the Dreamcast died. It sucked. Nothing but shit Sega arcade ports. Don't get me wrong it had some bangers but the nostalgia this system carries with it just boggles my mind. The PS1 and N64 were infinitely better.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

There was a reason the Dreamcast died. It sucked. Nothing but shit Sega arcade ports. Don't get me wrong it had some bangers but the nostalgia this system carries with it just boggles my mind. The PS1 and N64 were infinitely better.

Dreamcast had great hardware but it's lineup and style is an acquired taste, one I personally love.

Objectively, however, the PS1's library outclasses it and I'd even say the N64 just about edges it out.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

There was a reason the Dreamcast died. It sucked. Nothing but shit Sega arcade ports. Don't get me wrong it had some bangers but the nostalgia this system carries with it just boggles my mind. The PS1 and N64 were infinitely better.

Thankfuly, that´s just your opinion. A shitty one, BTW

 

[Horseganador]

It's impossible for Dreamcast to have a catalog as large as PSX, but in the short time it lasted it was incredible, launching the console with Soul Calibur, Sonic Adventure, etc... in its day was incredible.

 

[JackHanma]

Thankfuly, that´s just your opinion. A shitty one, BTW

Nah, it is the objective truth. If it was a good console it would have sold well and not have such a short shelf life.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Dreamcast had great hardware but it's lineup and style is an acquired taste, one I personally love.

Objectively, however, the PS1's library outclasses it and I'd even say the N64 just about edges it out.

Objectively N64 library is trash compared to both systems (as is the hardware).

Magical stuff right there!!

Kinda nuts given the amount of concessions made to run original VF4 on PS2 and wack VF3 Dreamcast port.

 

[Fat Frog]

There was a reason the Dreamcast died. It sucked. Nothing but shit Sega arcade ports.

Dude, the best sellers are Sonic Adventure, Shenmue, NFL2K1, Code Veronica...

The only arcade game of the top 10 is from Namco. (Soulcalibur)
Sega published a load of non arcade ports for each market from Metropolis Street Racer to Skies of Arcadia, Head Hunter.

 

[V2Tommy]

Day 1 Dreamcast owner, 9/9/99!

System sucks. Slow optical disc drive with horrible seek noises. First console with a cooling fan and a shitty, whiny, loud one. Horrific controller with cord on the wrong side. VMU battery beeping. VMU not backlit. No optical audio out.

I don't want to discuss the game library as those are personal tastes.

 

[nkarafo]

The controller was indeed bad. If the console didn't die prematurely, it would be alive during the standardization of the dual analog controls in almost every game that has aim and camera controls.

Sega would have to make new dual analog pads and early DC adopters would have to buy them and pretty much throw away the originals.

 

[Gitaroo]

it was release in the era of 3D hardware rendering was in its complete form coming off hardware software rendering like PSX. Then PS2 to 3 is the pixel shaders era, then the gap gets narrow and narrow from then

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Nah, it is the objective truth. If it was a good console it would have sold well and not have such a short shelf life.

Seems like you don´t know the facts.

Library wise: DC has Soul Calibur, according to Metacritic, still the best ranked fighting game ever, and it´s 2nd on the top 5 of best games ever made, just behind Ocarina of Time. Sonic Adventure 1/2 are still considered the best 3D sonic games ever, along with Generations, to the point the third live action Sonic movie released last year it´s basically the live action of Sonic Adventure 2.. Shenmue set the foundation to what should have been a realistic open world adventure, Jet Set Radio made made popular the Cel Shading graphics, PSO was the first console MMO, Quake 3 Arena brought online crossplay between console and PC (and Capcom vs SNK 2 made it in Japan between PS2 and DC), Virtua Tennis made tennis simulators fun and put realistic graphics on them, the 2K sports titles are still relevant to this day (at least NBA), and they all started with DC 26 years ago. The Capcom Fighting Colection 2, which it´s brought by Capcom this 2025, it´s basically plagued with Dreamcast games (power stone, Capcom vs SNK 2, Project Justice, SF III which is CPS3, but also was on DC), it has lotta cult classic titles on it´s catalogue like SF 3 Third Strike, Marvel vs Capcom 2 (games that are relevant to this day on pro competitions like Evo), Guilty Gear X, Rez, Ikaruga...

Also, it has some of the best console versions of 32/64 bit ports praised back in the day, like RE 2/3, Soul Reaver, Dino Crisis, Pro Skater1/2, Spider-Man, V-Rally 2, Rayman 2, Tomb Raider 4,5 and 1..And even it has unnoficial perfect enhanced ports of MGS, GT2 and Tekken 3...And now lately Doom 64 (with vertex lighting and bump mapping), Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, Wipeout Oh...and don´t forget the recent ports of GTA 3 and Vice City!

So, a console which catalogue it´s still remastered to modern systems to this day, with games which made a foundation to what we have had within the last 2 decades, titles still praised by it´s quality even 25 years later, and even some had wide impact on popular culture, beyond gaming, not just the Sonic movie, games like Crazy Taxy are still highly remembered to this day, to the point The Offspring put Crazy Taxy videclips on their backdrop screen for its current shows (2025) when they play All I Want...a song which was very popular years before DC, so they had no real reason to make this, other than Crazy Taxy, a freaking Dreamcast game, was one of the many DC titles who transcended.

And sales wise...DC had the most succesful console launch to date on NA release 9-9-99, with $100 million in first-day sales in the US. Not even PS1 achieved that in 95. Also DC sold more than 9,2 m of units globally, most part of that on the west, when it lasted just 18 months....Yes, of course PS2 stomped it on the market, but DC wasn´t making it bad at all. Probably it would had took the second spot, on sales...Xbox in someway, you could say took DC´s spot. But also, if you compare with Saturn, which sold a little bit more thatn DC, but was on the market for 6 years...


DC failed because of Sega itself and their failures before DC which make people losing confidence, and also for Sony, because of the outstanding work with PS1, making people just willing to wait for the PS2, instead on jumping into another consoles...and also, a little bit spiced by the hype created by Sony itself stating PS2 was basically a machine leagues ahead of DC (which wasn´t true, despite being more powerful), and, of course the DVD.

The controller was indeed bad. If the console didn't die prematurely, it would be alive during the standardization of the dual analog controls in almost every game that has aim and camera controls.

Sega would have to make new dual analog pads and early DC adopters would have to buy them and pretty much throw away the originals.

The analog triggers were quite an innovation, specially for racing games. Even modern consoles like Switch 2 lack of those. The VMU stuff was also a great hook for the kids from that era (in fact, it still surprises people who didn´t know DC had that). Control was decent for 2d fighters, good for 3d fighters...horrible for fps...that lack of second stick was pretty fucked up, but back in the day (99-01) we weren´t that used to second analog for camera movement, even early GCN and PS2 games like Star Fox Adventures or GTA 3 itself doesnt use the second stick for camera movement...

 

[JackHanma]

Seems like you don´t know the facts.

Library wise: DC has Soul Calibur, according to Metacritic, still to best ranked fighting game ever, and it´s 2nd on the top 5 of best games ever made, just behind Ocarina of Time. Sonic Adventure 1/2 are still considered the best 3D sonic games ever, along with Generations, to the point the third live action Sonic movie released last year it´s basically the live action of Sonic Adventure 2.. Shenmue set the foundation to what should have been a realistic open world adventure, Jet Set Radio made made popular the Cel Shading graphics, PSO was the first console MMO, Quake 3 Arena brought online crossplay between console and PC (and Capcom vs SNK 2 made it in Japan between PS2 and DC), Virtua Tennis made tennis simulators fun and put realistic graphics on them, the 2K sports titles are still relevant to this day (at least NBA), and they all started with DC 26 years ago. The Capcom Fighting Colection 2, which it´s brought by Capcom this 2025, it´s basically plagued with Dreamcast games (power stone, Capcom vs SNK 2, Project Justice, SF III which is CPS3, but also was on DC), it has lotta cult classic titles on it´s catalogue like SF 3 Third Strike, Marvel vs Capcom 2 (games that are relevant to this day on pro competitions like Evo), Guilty Gear X, Rez, Ikaruga...

Also, it has some of the best console versions of 32/64 bit ports praised back in the day, like RE 2/3, Soul Reaver, Dino Crisis, Pro Skater1/2, Spider-Man, V-Rally 2, Rayman 2, Tomb Raider 4,5 and 1..And even it has unnoficial perfect enhanced ports of MGS, GT2 and Tekken 3...And now lately Doom 64 (with vertex lighting and bump mapping), Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, Wipeout Oh...and don´t forget the recent ports of GTA 3 and Vice City!

So, a console which catalogue it´s still remastered to modern systems to this day, with games which made a foundation to what we have on last 2 decades, titles still praised by it´s quality even 25 years later, and even some had wide impact on popular culture, beyond gaming, not just the Sonic movie, games like Crazy Taxy are still highly remembered to this day, to the point The Offspring put Crazy Taxy videclips on their backdrop screen for its current shows (2025) when they play All I Want...a song which was very popular years before DC, so they had no real reason to make this, other than Crazy Taxy, a freaking Dreamcast game, was one of the many DC titles who transcended.

And sales wise...DC had the most succesful console launch to date on NA release 9-9-99, with $100 million in first-day sales in the US. Not even PS1 achieved that in 95. Also DC sold more than 9,2 m of units globally, most part of that on the west, when it lasted just 18 months....Yes, of course PS2 stomped it on the market, but DC wasn´t making it bad at all. Probably it would had took the second spot, on sales...Xbox in someway, you could say took DC´s spot. But also, if you compare with Saturn, which sold a little bit more thatn DC, but was on the market for 6 years...


DC failed because of Sega itself and their failures before DC which make people losing confidence, and also for Sony, because of the outstanding work with PS1, making people just willing to wait for the PS2, instead on jumping into another consoles...and also, a little bit spiced by the hype created by Sony itself stating PS2 was basically a machine leagues ahead of DC (which wasn´t true, despite being more powerful), and, of course the DVD.


The analog triggers were quite an innovation, specially for racing games. Even modern consoles like Switch 2 lack of those. The VMU stuff was also a great hook for the kids from that era (in fact, it still surprises people who didn´t know DC had that). Control was decent for 2d fighters, good for 3d fighters...horrible for fps...that lag of second stick was pretty fucked up, but back in the day (99-01) we weren´t that used to second analog for camera movement, even early GCN and PS2 games like Star Fox Adventures or GTA 3 itself doesnt use the second stick for camera movement...

And yet they pulled the plug on it.

 

[MrA]

And yet they pulled the plug on it.

Because 2 evil mega corporations spent their way into the industry

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

And yet they pulled the plug on it.

And yet it´s part of your conversation 24 years after that!

 

[kevboard]

The controller was indeed bad. If the console didn't die prematurely, it would be alive during the standardization of the dual analog controls in almost every game that has aim and camera controls.

Sega would have to make new dual analog pads and early DC adopters would have to buy them and pretty much throw away the originals.

a dual analog controller was I think already planned.

the controller was the systems biggest misstep IMO.
not only because of the missing second stick.
besides that it also had the same issue as the GameCube, by just having not enough buttons. IT HAD FEWER BUTTONS THAN ITS OWN PREDECESSOR! the Saturn 3D Controller had 2 buttons more... like, why?

 

[BlueManifest]

Old time gaffers may remember the rumor that the ps2 "emotion engine" had processor power so fast that it could develop momentary consciousness. Brilliantly played

Loved rumors like this back in console's prime, it got me so hyped for whatever system had rumors like this

 

[nkarafo]

a dual analog controller was I think already planned.

the controller was the systems biggest misstep IMO.
not only because of the missing second stick.
besides that it also had the same issue as the GameCube, by just having not enough buttons. IT HAD FEWER BUTTONS THAN ITS OWN PREDECESSOR! the Saturn 3D Controller had 2 buttons more... like, why?

Yeah, the DC pad lacked buttons, for sure.

Though, i never felt the Gamecube controller was lacking. That's because it had the C-stick (which was basically a 2nd analog stick) and that could be used for many functions, including (of course) controlling the camera. I remember it being used in Metroid Prime to change the beams or the visors.

 

[kevboard]

Yeah, the DC pad lacked buttons, for sure.

Though, i never felt the Gamecube controller was lacking. That's because it had the C-stick (which was basically a 2nd analog stick) and that could be used for many functions, including (of course) controlling the camera. I remember it being used in Metroid Prime to change the beams or the visors.

the GameCube absolutely had issues with multiplat titles.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory had multiple "modifier" buttons that you had to hold down and do a button combo with in order to sometimes very basic things.
like in order to look through your scope, you had to hold down Z and move the C Stick down... to open your inventory you had to hold Z and press Dpad Up.

you couldn't even open your objectives/map screen without a button combo.

basically they only mapped the absolutely most essential actions on single button presses, and everything that wasn't top priority had a button combo you had to memorize.

the Splinter Cell games in general were titles that even had to resort to some button combos on PS2 and Xbox, which had 4 buttons more than the GameCube.
and any game with a more complex control scheme ran into issues like this on the system.

 

[Alexios]

Eh, many (most?) PS2 era classics barely did anything with the right stick. From MGS to GTA, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil 4, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess & Metroid Prime, the Dreamcast would have been fine with all such games/genres/styles and successors to its own RPG, fighting, racing, sports & arcade games. Maken X controls much like Metroid Prime. If folks wanted COD-like T/FPS, they'd have the choice of the eventual twin stick controller (PS had no trouble making it its new default with few real/dual analog games) or mouse & keyboard, though PS2 won without much of that stuff

Even when you need more buttons, you more often than not still have the 4 (8?) d-pad directions as back then it used to be available as alternative to analog controls or even do nothing while nowadays it's very commonly used as additional inputs (ie weapon/items in Souls) so it could have been used for things like items, menus, actions in MGS & Zelda type games where people say you totally need to have extra shoulder buttons, on top of other clever still decently intuitive stuff like hold L then tap R to toggle stuff one way, hold R then tap L for the reverse, etc. Personally I'm also partial to the old GoldenEye/Perfect Dark single stick defaults as with the right gameplay it's weighty and physical like controlling an action game character in FPV, auto aiming what's roughly ahead Doom style (or lock on like Prime) and precision aiming RE4 style. I liked it in later FPS like TimeSplitters too. Though games like MDK2 are great with the face buttons as WASD, left stick as look/aim, L to jump/glide/jetpack/whatever, R to shoot and the d-pad to switch and use weapons/items/scopes/gadgets etc. Sure, after 25 years it's the reverse of what you've been used to but it worked and works still.

Not that PSP isn't proof enough, it has identical inputs to Dreamcast and did just fine from Monster Hunter to God of War to MGS to GTA to Final Fantasy to Syphon Filter to SOCOM to Daxter to Resistance to Tomb Raider to Medal of Honor to racing to (S/J/A)RPGs to fighting, sports and more

And yes I know about the claw grip crap but that was way over the top and unnecessary if you ask me, I played Monster Hunter a TON on that system and just momentarily tapping a direction for my character to face that and then tapping the camera button to recenter it was more than enough and became second nature and all you needed, in the heat of battle or otherwise. Though the series later also made it so the recenter camera button could instead just face the boss monster right away (and in PSO there's automatic boss camera) so you didn't even have to direct your character first.

Edit: I forgot about 3DS having the same controls (its FPS tended to use the touch screen for aiming, possibly to their detriment sacrificing other inputs, but other games didn't). So the DC died in 2001 but its controls survived in Sony to 2011 and Nintendo to 2017 proving they weren't the problem.

Anyway, Macross M3 is now translated. It's not good (Virtual-On, Tech Romancer, Gundam vs. and Rise from the Ashes is where it's at for DC giant robots) but it's a neat side story for fans. Translation link & Japanese sample gameplay (there are only bad emulation videos of the translation atm) ​

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/7463/

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Not that PSP isn't proof enough, it has identical inputs to Dreamcast and did just fine from Monster Hunter to God of War to MGS to GTA to Final Fantasy to Syphon Filter to SOCOM to Daxter to Resistance to Tomb Raider to Medal of Honor to racing to (S/J/A)RPGs to fighting, sports and more

Edit: I forgot about the 3DS, lol, again it had the same basic controls as the PSP and the Dreamcast for the regular non touch based play (though its FPS games tended to use the touch screen for aiming, possibly to their detriment given sacrificing most other inputs, for many other genres it didn't).

Anyway, Macross M3 is now translated. It's not good (Virtual-On, Tech Romancer, Gundam vs. and Rise from the Ashes is where it's at for DC giant robots) but it's a neat side story for fans. Translation link & Japanese sample gameplay (there are only bad emulation videos of the translation atm) ​

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/7463/

Agree with this!!

Also, good old Macross! Yes, it doesn´t look as good as Virtual On or the Gundams, but made good use of DC hardware (at least looks better than Slave Zero, which it´s also a good game BTW) and has an impressive gameplay!

 

[Alexios]

Also, good old Macross! Yes, it doesn´t look as good as Virtual On or the Gundams, but made good use of DC hardware (at least looks better than Slave Zero, which it´s also a good game BTW) and has an impressive gameplay!

Maybe I'm missing something..?

Visually it's fine aside from the frame drops, nothing special, low res textures, ok draw distance, no shadows, but nice anime & macross aesthetics. The real problem is the gameplay as it's extremely basic. You're limited to a basic rapid-fire attack or a hold-to-lock-on shot (which is admittedly neat), shared across all three forms. In fighter mode, there's no real dogfighting. You have constant thrust and afterburner, but enemies are too agile to meaningfully chase so the fighter is at most used to reposition and attacking is done almost entirely in the robot forms, which rotate way faster.

In aerial missions, the robot forms essentially hover like turrets, with only vertical upward thrust in place of the plane afterburner. The full robot form's lock-on works a bit like Metroid Prime or rather Virtual On where you're constantly snapping to enemies to keep them centered, making it the most practical form for attacking in the air. Vertical boosting is awkward and limited as you seem to hit the sky limit and it becomes even clumsier. You can never pitch/roll as much as you'd want in any form. If you could boost downward it might resemble a 6DOF shooter but as it is, it never quite works.

Ground missions fare better. The robots feel more natural grounded, moving with the analog stick along the ground or boosting to hover/glide about, which lets you play it a bit like Gungriffon, leaping, raining lock on missiles, and dropping back in cover. The fighter form also becomes more useful for quickly covering distance and attacking less mobile targets given strict time limits. Neither robot form allows strafing as far as I can tell so combat boils down to facing enemies head-on, jumping to avoid fire or better target them, and spamming your simple attacks while going in/out of range.

Overall, the controls, AI, and mission design are rigid and shallow, with no real advanced maneuvers or mechanical depth on the player or AI side. Despite superficial similarities in the timestamp above, it's nowhere near as engaging as something like Armored Core. There's some progression in choosing your mech and equipping perks but it's minimal. To me it feels like a game mainly for Macross superfans interested in the side story of familiar characters. Compared to Rise from the Ashes (itself no classic), it's clearly weaker in gameplay depth, mission design, and production values.

I guess the simplicity makes it more like the Sega Saturn Gundam games than anything more modern or deeper (though you could strafe in those games so technically they controlled better but combat was still a bit too simple and repetitive, if still good for its time with ace visuals for the system). They also left 3 of 4 face buttons unused (tap/hold A for attacks, L to boost as plane or jump/hover as robot, R to face/lock on as full robot, d-pad to switch forms, stick to pitch/yaw/move), so it's not like they kept it simple because of the controller (as the other robot/mech games do much more).

 

[SScorpio]

Eh, many (most?) PS2 era classics barely did anything with the right stick. From MGS to GTA, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil 4, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess & Metroid Prime, the Dreamcast would have been fine with all such games/genres/styles and successors to its own RPG, fighting, racing, sports & arcade games. Maken X controls much like Metroid Prime. If folks wanted COD-like T/FPS, they'd have the choice of the eventual twin stick controller (PS had no trouble making it its new default with few real/dual analog games) or mouse & keyboard, though PS2 won without much of that stuff

Even when you need more buttons, you more often than not still have the 4 (8?) d-pad directions as back then it used to be available as alternative to analog controls or even do nothing while nowadays it's very commonly used as additional inputs (ie weapon/items in Souls) so it could have been used for things like items, menus, actions in MGS & Zelda type games where people say you totally need to have extra shoulder buttons, on top of other clever still decently intuitive stuff like hold L then tap R to toggle stuff one way, hold R then tap L for the reverse, etc. Personally I'm also partial to the old GoldenEye/Perfect Dark single stick FPS controls, with the right gameplay it's weighty and physical like controlling an action game character in FPV, auto aiming what's roughly ahead Doom style (or lock on like Prime) and precision aiming RE4 style. I liked it in later FPS like TimeSplitters too.

Not that PSP isn't proof enough, it has identical inputs to Dreamcast and did just fine from Monster Hunter to God of War to MGS to GTA to Final Fantasy to Syphon Filter to SOCOM to Daxter to Resistance to Tomb Raider to Medal of Honor to racing to (S/J/A)RPGs to fighting, sports and more

And yes I know about the claw grip crap but that was way over the top and unnecessary if you ask me, I played Monster Hunter a TON on that system and just momentarily tapping a direction for my character to face that and then tapping the camera button to recenter it was more than enough and became second nature and all you needed, in the heat of battle or otherwise. Though the series later also made it so the recenter camera button could instead just face the boss monster right away (and in PSO there's automatic boss camera) so you didn't even have to direct your character first.

Edit: I forgot about 3DS having the same controls (its FPS tended to use the touch screen for aiming, possibly to their detriment sacrificing other inputs, but other games didn't). So the DC died in 2001 but its controls survived in Sony to 2011 and Nintendo to 2017 proving they weren't the problem.

Anyway, Macross M3 is now translated. It's not good (Virtual-On, Tech Romancer, Gundam vs. and Rise from the Ashes is where it's at for DC giant robots) but it's a neat side story for fans. Translation link & Japanese sample gameplay (there are only bad emulation videos of the translation atm) ​

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/7463/

IMO that was more the original PlayStation, the PS2 was when it started mattering more. Giving examples of Gamecube games that are designed around a single stick doesn't eliminate the idea that a second stick could have improved things. MGS3's Subsistence version that added the free camera was seen as a huge upgrade. And the Xbox was making great use of the second stick day one with Halo bring the modern FPS controls we have today. The first Splinter Cell also made great use of a free camera.

And saying Monster Hunter on the PSP was fine is ignoring the huge issue of the claw grip, maybe snap worked for you, but lots of Japanese people have permanently crooked fingers too many hours clawing. Playing any of those games on a Vita and doing the control remap to having two proper sticks makes the games play so much better.

And Goldeneye/Perfect Dark which mimicked a keyboard and mouse control by having you do digital movement, while aiming with the stick. Or use two controllers for dual stick action on the N64.

When even Nintendo saw the light and had two analog sticks (yes the c stick is analog but lower range of motion), it was a good idea to have the dual sticks. It wouldn't have saved the Dreamcast, but it was a major oversight to not include them. Games can be designed to work with whatever input methods are available. But there's a reason all systems have the same basic input methods. It's gives the most flexibility and allowing the greatest control.

 

[Alexios]

There's little to add, everything's already addressed in posts you quote yet ignore. I shouldn't discuss the numerous GC/PS2 timeless hits that didn't do much with the 2nd stick and concede Dreamcast couldn't have great/modern/quality games just because of its controller, even though it's proven wrong? Yes the 2nd stick could add to some things, less in some, more in others, I never claimed otherwise, captain obvious. Even in the GC Zeldas and GTAIII they could have put camera control on a 2nd stick, but that wouldn't somehow mean on one stick you couldn't have games that stand up to this quality just because of the lack of it, as game design could, and did, work around it. So the fact Okami, San Andreas or any game did have a second stick camera doesn't mean it would be impossible or bad to have such games on Dreamcast. It really wasn't an issue in its lifetime and could have been worked around for long after, as it already was in systems and games I mention as a sample, to 2011 and well beyond, whether by minor concessions, ace game design tuned to one stick or eventually a new controller (or mkb) as on PS/3DS for users wanting games where concessions would be too great otherwise (like Halo/COD-likes, not that PS2 needed or had many). End of. Monster Hunter took off on systems you find so unsuitable yet was first on one with a 2nd stick (btw, the first PS2 game mapped attacks to it so the claw was first devised for it, just as sillily & unnecessarily) ​

Edit: I don't understand how you can try to argue N64 FPS controls can't work on DC. I'll expand on what should have been obvious since I just wrote this elsewhere the topic of a GoldenEye Dreamcast port came up, due to StarFox 64's release:

With (reversed as in most DC shooters, like MDK2) 1.2 Solitaire controls you'd have L to aim, R to fire, face buttons as c-buttons move, stick as look and d-pad directions for action/weapon (two left blank). There are no other buttons as you just use the move directions while L aiming to crouch/lean.

The default 1.1 Honey would be almost exactly as on N64: L to aim, R to fire, stick as move (with turn instead of strafe), face buttons as c-buttons look (Idk why it's marked look since the left/right c-buttons are strafe in its setup) and the d-pad (unreachable on the N64) for action/weapon as above.

Basically the N64 only appears to have more inputs as on DC you can use the d-pad as buttons (nowadays it's very common, back then it was often either unused or digital alternative to analog controls) and then you actually have 2 more inputs reachable. On the N64 the d-pad is unreachable when held normally (left hand on stick prong, right hand on the a/b/c-buttons side) unless you choose to have the d-pad reachable and then it's the c-buttons that are unreachable (left hand on d-pad prong, right hand on stick prong and reaching up for a/b). On DC L/R are reachable and on N64 either L and Z or R and Z, never all three based on how you hold it as above. You also have the option to use d-pad and 6 face buttons and L/R reachable on N64, with stick/Z unreachable (left hand on d-pad prong, right hand on c-button prong, stick prong unused), but I can't think of any games that expect to be used like that at the moment. If it ever had a Street Fighter port or something I imagine it could have used that style. Either way that means 8 inputs reachable on the N64 and 10 inputs reachable on the DC so obviously it can replicate anything on the N64 by utilizing the d-pad for any of the less urgent functions...​

​

 

[SScorpio]

I really have nothing to add, everything is already addressed in the post you quoted. I shouldn't talk about all those greatest hits that didn't benefit from a 2nd stick & concede the Dreamcast couldn't have had great/modern/quality games just because of its controller, even though it's proven wrong? Yes the 2nd stick could add to some things, less in some, more in others, I never claimed otherwise, captain obvious. Even in the GC Zeldas you could have put camera control on a 2nd stick, but that wouldn't somehow mean on one stick you couldn't have games that stand up to this quality just because of the lack of it, as excellent, modern, quality design could, and did, work. It wasn't an issue in Dreamcast's lifetime and could have been worked around for long after it, as it evidently was in the other systems and games I mention, whether by minor concessions or ace game design tuned to one stick or eventually a new controller as on PS. End of. Funny how Monster Hunter took off on the systems you find so unsuitable even though it was first on one with a 2nd stick (the first game on PS2 mapped attacks on it so the claw was first devised on it, just as sillily & unnecessarily).​

The point was the Dreamcast didn't run into issues because it was dead before the Xbox and Gamecube released. If we had a four way race, or maybe the Xbox wouldn't have been made the lack of the 2nd stick would have hampered development. And the point still stands it was really odd for Sega to have fewer inputs than were on the Saturn's analog controller.

 

[SomeGit]

It think in an ideal world, where Sega continued, by the time the second stick would really be important (2003/2004) we would already have a DC successor on the way. But yeah to some games in the meantime it would suck, mostly FPS.

The DC does support a second stick and 2 additional face button, but I'm not sure if they could move enough units, like the 6 button MD controller.

 

[cireza]

And the point still stands it was really odd for Sega to have fewer inputs than were on the Saturn's analog controller.

It was fine and built at a time when two sticks were not the norm. SEGA traded two faces buttons for a 4 buttons pattern that worked as a secondary d-pad + a stick + analog triggers that were a must for racing games, and that somehow are still not present on modern day Nintendo hardware.

Base Saturn controller did not have analog triggers, no stick and the 6 face buttons where not shaped well to use as a d-pad. You had to buy another controller to get all of this.

These were the right choices. If the console had been a huge success or whatever, it would have been pretty easy to manufacture a new controller with an added second stick. After all, this is what Sony did with the Dual Shock.

 

[SScorpio]

It was fine and built at a time when two sticks were not the norm. SEGA traded two faces buttons for a 4 buttons pattern that worked as a secondary d-pad + a stick + analog triggers that were a must for racing games, and that somehow are still not present on modern day Nintendo hardware.

Base Saturn controller did not have analog triggers, no stick and the 6 face buttons where not shaped well to use as a d-pad. You had to buy another controller to get all of this.

These were the right choices. If the console had been a huge success or whatever, it would have been pretty easy to manufacture a new controller with an added second stick. After all, this is what Sony did with the Dual Shock.

My complaint was the Saturn 3D Analog Controller had the stick, two analog triggers, and six face buttons. That's why it's really odd that the Dreamcast went down to four face buttons. Since the Mega Drive and Saturn made the six button Sega's "thing".

The Xbox's original Duke controller kept some of that Sega DNA and had six face buttons though the white and black buttons had a slightly different button shape. The smaller controller moved those buttons down making them less usable IMO.

Arguments on what is the correct placement for the left stick aside. Sony nailed the modern controller layout 30 years ago.

It think in an ideal world, where Sega continued, by the time the second stick would really be important (2003/2004) we would already have a DC successor on the way. But yeah to some games in the meantime it would suck, mostly FPS.

The DC does support a second stick and 2 additional face button, but I'm not sure if they could move enough units, like the 6 button MD controller.

I'm really glad 4-5 year console life cycles aren't a thing. Sega burned bright with all their hardware releases, but they just kept releasing stuff way to quickly. Outside of Japan missed the start of the madness which was the SG-1000/SC-3000, two years then Mark 3/Master System, three years Mega Drive/Genesis, three years Sega CD, three years 32x and Saturn, four years Dreamcast.

 

[cireza]

Arguments on what is the correct placement for the left stick aside. Sony nailed the modern controller layout 30 years ago.

So they didn't nail anything. Two sticks bottom is an awful layout. And their d-pads have been bad as well.

 

[Unknown?]

So they didn't nail anything. Two sticks bottom is an awful layout.

Better than offset, but I liked the Wii U controller that had both at the top.

 

[cireza]

Better than offset, but I liked the Wii U controller that had both at the top.

Most logical setup in my opinion.

Why would you put a stick, which has a lot of height, on the path to access face buttons. Makes no sense. Yet this nonsense has been the standard on Switch joycons.

On PS consoles, the sticks are too low, the thumbs never go so low naturally.

 

[Esppiral]

It was.

 

[NT80]

There was a reason the Dreamcast died. It sucked. Nothing but shit Sega arcade ports. Don't get me wrong it had some bangers but the nostalgia this system carries with it just boggles my mind. The PS1 and N64 were infinitely better.

For me it was better than both PS1 and especially N64. I wasn't a big fan of Zelda or 3D Mario and was never that interested in Goldeneye. I might've liked Star Fox, F-Zero and some of the Rare titles but not much else.
Dremcast had online for the first time on a console and it was great for games like Quake 3 and Phantasy Star Online. It also had among others RE:CV, Record of Lodoss War (best console ARPG) , Ready to Rumble, UFC, the Shenmue games and some excellent arcade ports like Soul Calibur, House of the Dead 2 and the Virtua Tennis games. Virtua Tennis probably still has the best single player mode in a Tennis game today.

 

[Wolzard]

And yet they pulled the plug on it.

It's complicated when you're losing so much money. The Sega Saturn caused Sega to suffer many losses, which were difficult to reverse. If Sega hadn't been doing so badly, perhaps we would still have a Sega console on the market.

The company only avoided bankruptcy because the president of Sega left his entire fortune to Sega, and that saved it.

BBC News | BUSINESS | Sega chief's $700m gift

I've also heard that Microsoft kind of wanted Sega to die. Sega's president tried to convince Microsoft to buy the company, but they were refused.

Microsoft chose not to buy Sega because it didn't have the 'muscle'

Xbox owner once considered buying Sega to help it develop gaming hardware, says former Microsoft executive.

www.gamespot.com

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Dreamcast had great hardware but it's lineup and style is an acquired taste, one I personally love.

Objectively, however, the PS1's library outclasses it and I'd even say the N64 just about edges it out.

I've been working on a (very complex) alternate gaming timeline for some months now, mostly focused on NEC, but I have some ideas for 6th gen as well and that of course includes Dreamcast.

You're right that aspects of Dreamcast's library offering could've been stronger during the crucial 1999 and early 2000 period to get a bigger beachhead ahead of PS2's marketing hype and launch kicking in. Shenmue should've been the Virtua Fighter RPG it originally started as, not a new IP, as that would've helped it a lot better in Japan. Space Channel 5 is a great aesthetic, but if they couldn't get Lady Miss Kier directly involved then maybe it should've been a licensed rhythm game with some popular Japanese pop or dance artists in Japan, and Michael Jackson in America. Michael was a SEGA fan anyway.

Those are just two examples of many. SEGA should've considered a Neon Genesis Evangelion JRPG for Dreamcast, after all they partially funded the production of the anime and made NGE games for Saturn, and it was very popular as an anime in Japan & Western otaku circles. Thing is, yes I'm saying these things with power of hindsight, but all three of these suggestions could've been easy to spot and make back during the time, too. These should've been obvious moves but for one reason or another they weren't made.

I'd even argue having two competing prototype designs for Dreamcast was a problem in itself since that split R&D between two designs where one was always going to get rejected. Had all R&D been consolidated to a single agreed-upon architecture design then some aspects of Dreamcast could've been improved ahead of the launch.

 

[Mohonky]

Did I see someone a few pages back try to argue PS2/GC version of Splinter Cell were anywhere near Xbox? Like what in the world....

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The controller was indeed bad. If the console didn't die prematurely, it would be alive during the standardization of the dual analog controls in almost every game that has aim and camera controls.

Sega would have to make new dual analog pads and early DC adopters would have to buy them and pretty much throw away the originals.

Or they could've offered rebates to send registered Dreamcast owners the new controller for free. Only way to guarantee every Dreamcast owner had the controller as standard to encourage wider adoption among games or it.

Because 2 evil mega corporations spent their way into the industry

You could kinda make that argument for SEGA and Nintendo, too, and I'm sure you wouldn't call them evil (nor would I). Nintendo's hanafuda & toy money helped supply a warchest for shift into arcade gaming and then console gaming. SEGA's profits from arcade gaming giving them advantages when pushing into console gaming.

Every platform holder's had to spend their way into the industry one way or another.

the GameCube absolutely had issues with multiplat titles.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory had multiple "modifier" buttons that you had to hold down and do a button combo with in order to sometimes very basic things.
like in order to look through your scope, you had to hold down Z and move the C Stick down... to open your inventory you had to hold Z and press Dpad Up.

you couldn't even open your objectives/map screen without a button combo.

basically they only mapped the absolutely most essential actions on single button presses, and everything that wasn't top priority had a button combo you had to memorize.

the Splinter Cell games in general were titles that even had to resort to some button combos on PS2 and Xbox, which had 4 buttons more than the GameCube.
and any game with a more complex control scheme ran into issues like this on the system.

TBF, Splinter Cell's control complexity is more an exception of that gen, not the rule.

It was.

That's looking quite comparable to the PS2 version now. Maybe less advanced shading and lighting, but that could also be down to the locations in the video.

If SEGA stuck it out for another year before folding, and got GTA3 Day 1, maybe even securing a marketing deal (Sony didn't see the value in GTA yet to probably consider a marketing deal by that point so SEGA would've had more incentive at this point IMO), that probably would've helped them maintain in the American & European markets for a while longer.

Heck, go ham paying out of pocket for the advertising campaign as well, really drive brand association of GTA with Dreamcast early on before the IP blows up in popularity. Could've helped a lot in reversing some fortunes.

 

[kevboard]

TBF, Splinter Cell's control complexity is more an exception of that gen, not the rule.

I bet more games would have run into issues like that if third party support was better on it.

like, imagine GTA San Andreas on that controller . that game had every button on PS2/Xbox mapped to something, including the D-Pad, with some double mapping while targeting an enemy.
I think even while driving every button was mapped, including the L3/R3 and all D-Pad directions.

so on GameCube something would have had to give. they would probably need a modifier button like Splinter Cell. so instead of having a button to switch radio stations while driving, you'd hold Z and press D-Pad right or something along those lines. car horn would mabe he Z + Y or something.

or imagine if CoD3 released on it. Big Red One was still simple enough to work, but CoD3 had the 2 grenade types, and nearly all modern CoD gameplay elements. so it worked without issue on PS2, but would have been cumbersome as hell on GameCube.
I bet it's even suboptimal on the og Xbox given that it is designed around having 4 shoulder buttons.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

It was.

Impressive stuff right there!

And yet on this very thread there were people stating DC couldn´t even run GTA 3 just a few years ago...

 

[cartman414]

The Dreamcast was hindered by consumer mistrust from the 32x and sega saturn. Two burns in a row made it a tall order to give a third crack at it.

Sony running dvd's was a humongous advantage at the time, and the rumors leading up to the ps2 launch kept some from giving the dreamcast a chance. Old time gaffers may remember the rumor that the ps2 "emotion engine" had processor power so fast that it could develop momentary consciousness. Brilliantly played.

It's complicated when you're losing so much money. The Sega Saturn caused Sega to suffer many losses, which were difficult to reverse. If Sega hadn't been doing so badly, perhaps we would still have a Sega console on the market.

The company only avoided bankruptcy because the president of Sega left his entire fortune to Sega, and that saved it.

BBC News | BUSINESS | Sega chief's $700m gift

I've also heard that Microsoft kind of wanted Sega to die. Sega's president tried to convince Microsoft to buy the company, but they were refused.

Microsoft chose not to buy Sega because it didn't have the 'muscle'

Xbox owner once considered buying Sega to help it develop gaming hardware, says former Microsoft executive.

www.gamespot.com

Sega lost more money outside of Saturn (including Dreamcast development). Saturn was more successful in Japan.\

Regarding the DC controller, its d-pad was also markedly inferior to that of the Saturn.

 

[Esppiral]

Using Ninja 2 library, that was basically used in one late game and underuse.

It was powerful

 

[MrCunningham]

I bought a Dreamcast for $200 and two weeks later Sega announced they were dropping out of the hardware business and Dreamcasts were going for $100 or less. Poor kid me.

But I had a blast with Tony Hawk 2, Jet Grind Radio, Crazy Taxi 2, and Shenmue, so it all worked out.

I bought my Dreamcast a month or so after it launched. I remember getting that $100 Sega-Net rebate in the mail. A week later Sega messed up and sent me a second $100 Sega net rebate, which practically paid for my Dreamcast in whole. It was like I got the entire unit for free.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Using Ninja 2 library, that was basically used in one late game and underuse.

It was powerful

OMG! How many polys on that scene?

Also, which was the only game which used Ninja 2?