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NVIDIA DLSS 4.5 to feature 2nd Gen Transformer model and Dynamic 6x Frame Generation

TrebleShot said:
I think it's hilarious that people think AI is some kind of bubble that will pop. Funny shit. It's here to stay and it's only getting better.
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For every useful case of "AI" (a painfully broad term btw which doesn't really make sense) - there are 10x the bullshit products, draining resource, getting stupid estimates and valuations for things that will never be profitable. These things will turn the market and everyone against AI and it WILL crash.
 
ozz ex machina said:
It's not the quality. It's the added latency.
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Well, DLSS 4 Frame Gen adds about 10ms for 2x, with an extra 5ms for each step after that. While I don't use FG in competitive games like COD, adding 20ms for 4x mode in a game like KCD2 wouldn't bother me much. With that said, I'm avoiding 4x due to ghosting issues.

It reminds me of when I bought a new TV back in the Halo 3 days. I thought I'd lost all my skill overnight, only to realize the TV was adding a massive 200ms of input lag. Compared to that nightmare, an extra 20ms is nothing! lol
 
Having a quick glance online, reaction seem to be mixed so far and as suspected the additional performance hit with the new preset is SIGNIFICANT. Temper your expectations if you're on an older RTX card.

704715d7-c6ab-49d4-846b-17ce53d9e0c1.png


M is the new version.
 
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Luipadre said:
Yeah arc and ac shadows had those issues also arc had issues with foliage. Gonna test both games now
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I'm not really up with all this technology talk but I'm also using a 5070ti. I don't use frame gen and have been using dlss transformer setting. Is this ghosting thing on foliage how it sometimes looks "screen door" like? Not sure I'm explaining it well but sometimes when hiding in bushes and trees they go semi transparent and look like you're looking through a screen door.
 
Considering the performance drop I'm wondering if we are reaching the limit of what these AI upscalers can do. Until they perhaps use a different model, or the next generation of GPUs has way more powerful hardware.
 
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funking giblet said:
The bubble is not about the quality and usefulness of AI, but rather the investments into companies purporting to leverage AI but are nothing burgers. The DOT COM bust didn't happen because the Internet was a bad idea, but companies being overleveraged while promising the world. Looking into the financials of the various layers of AI companies today, something smells. A lot of borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
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ozz ex machina said:
For every useful case of "AI" (a painfully broad term btw which doesn't really make sense) - there are 10x the bullshit products, draining resource, getting stupid estimates and valuations for things that will never be profitable. These things will turn the market and everyone against AI and it WILL crash.
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DirtInUrEye said:
It is obviously here to stay long term but the bubble is still going to spectacularly burst in this arms race. I'll bet you.
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I dont disagree with you guys , kind of, in the long term at least.

Right now we are in the relative infancy of the technology and it has a long long way to go, it will be a long time before that bubble does burst, maybe 5-10 years.
 
I've no interest in losing ten frames for the sake of imperceptible fidelity from three metres away on the couch. I was more curious about the potential for improvements to ultra performance mode anyway, but apparently the fps hit there is surprisingly large. It sounds disappointing but I'm looking forward to testing for myself tonight.

Frankly, CNN is perfectly good from my sitting position - and with an extra 20fps of performance advantage over this new version it seems.
 
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amigastar said:
Yeah, i want Reflex 2 also. But i like DLSS4.
Also i want that Nvidia Neural Texture Compression badly.
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Still nothing from Linus's video covering 4.5 MFG update

Its interesting tech but yeah still not massive on MFG. As there's still going to be performance loss on top of more visual artifacts and added latency (even over 2x). The other stuff would be instantly more useful.
 
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Tested BF6, arc, ac shadows. Not sure how i feel about this. Performance definitely worse, ghosting is gone and stuff like smoke, volumetric effects etc looks better , but the image quality is worse? It looks like a more artificially sharpened image from a lower ress. I dont really like this tbh. How i go back to the old one if i use the nvidia app lol. All i see is use latest or default :(
 
Luipadre said:
Tested BF6, arc, ac shadows. Not sure how i feel about this. Performance definitely worse, ghosting is gone and stuff like smoke, volumetric effects etc looks better , but the image quality is worse? It looks like a more artificially sharpened image from a lower ress. I dont really like this tbh. How i go back to the old one if i use the nvidia app lol. All i see is use latest or default :(
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I tried forcing MFG 4X in Assassins Creed Shadows but it doesnt seem to work? In-game option MFG works but I think thats only 2x (and even then the frame rate only jumps from 60 to like 90 odd). At this point I am not even sure if DLSS 4.5 forcing is also working or not, or if the game is still using older version.
 
Luipadre said:
Tested BF6, arc, ac shadows. Not sure how i feel about this. Performance definitely worse, ghosting is gone and stuff like smoke, volumetric effects etc looks better , but the image quality is worse? It looks like a more artificially sharpened image from a lower ress. I dont really like this tbh. How i go back to the old one if i use the nvidia app lol. All i see is use latest or default :(
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Ack, I've read about the oversharpening elsewhere as well.
 
SolidQ said:
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I was not expecting a ~10% decrease in performance on the Quality preset, not good if that's true. Maybe it's less on a better GPU.

The difference between K and M can't be a big leap in quality like it was from CNN to Transformer, where the performance hit is justified.
 
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DirtInUrEye said:
Having a quick glance online, reaction seem to be mixed so far and as suspected the additional performance hit with the new preset is SIGNIFICANT. Temper your expectations if you're on an older RTX card.

704715d7-c6ab-49d4-846b-17ce53d9e0c1.png


M is the new version.
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Thats for sure, still come 2027 that 6000 series card from nvidia gonna be pure fire(for our wallets too :P ).
ive-got-to-have-it-alex-vaughn.gif
 
Zathalus said:
Considering the performance drop I'm wondering if we are reaching the limit of what these AI upscalers can do. Until they perhaps use a different model, or the next generation of GPUs has way more powerful hardware.
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Nah this is actually 500 IQ move by NVIDIA, since Rubin increases AI perf by 8x. So when they compare RTX 60 vs 50 with DLSS 4.5 the performance increase will look much bigger than it actually is.
 
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Luipadre said:
Tested BF6, arc, ac shadows. Not sure how i feel about this. Performance definitely worse, ghosting is gone and stuff like smoke, volumetric effects etc looks better , but the image quality is worse? It looks like a more artificially sharpened image from a lower ress. I dont really like this tbh. How i go back to the old one if i use the nvidia app lol. All i see is use latest or default :(
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I think preset K is 4.0
 
Went back to "use application default" in ARC raiders and looks much better. They need to work on this more i think.
 
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mèx said:
I was not expecting a ~10% decrease in performance on the Quality present, not good if that's true. Maybe it's less on a better GPU.

The difference between K and M can't be a big leap in quality like it was from CNN to Transformer, where the performance hit is justified.
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It looks worse lol. Only thing is better is the lack of ghosting in some situations, but doesnt worth the hit in overall image quality imo.
 
yamaci17 said:
i've found a comparison and it definitely looks like there's some weird sharpening involved

it would probably look better at higher resolutions since 1080p output doesn't go well with sharpen
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Yeah thats how it looks at 1440p aswell. Looks dogshit. Went back to old one, look so much better. Hope they will fix that awful sharpening
 
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Gah, why do I have to be at work. I've now just been reading some really encouraging things about ultra performance mode with 4k (its intended purpose) on 4000 GPUs upwards. Stay away from it if you're on 3000 and less though as it'll kill your frames, so they say.
 
Luipadre said:
Tested BF6, arc, ac shadows. Not sure how i feel about this. Performance definitely worse, ghosting is gone and stuff like smoke, volumetric effects etc looks better , but the image quality is worse? It looks like a more artificially sharpened image from a lower ress. I dont really like this tbh. How i go back to the old one if i use the nvidia app lol. All i see is use latest or default :(
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use dlss swapper. its so easy to use
 
yamaci17 said:
dlss transformer upscaling is not practically flawless, not at all

there are a lot of games where it introduces ghosting and other weird issues like broken volumetric effects and reduced particle density

nice to hear that they're finally improving the transformer model. i hope this update fixes some of the glaring issues in certain games
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Doesn't dlss make rain disappear in death stranding too
 
amigastar said:
Yeah, i guess with flat panel monitors you can't have enough hz. Old CRT Monitors had less blur and lag than todays monitors.
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I still use a VGA CRT monitor sometimes. My 240 Hz OLED has slightly worse motion clarity, but it's not noticeable unless you're looking for that difference. Only extremely fast-moving objects will show persistence blur. My OLED monitor also has way less lag. Remember that you need to use Vsync with a CRT and play at a relatively low framerate. I can play at 120 fps on my CRT, but only at 640x480 resolution. Higher resolutions are limited to just 85 Hz on my monitor. Lag on CRT is 2-3x as high becaise of that and I can definitely feel this difference.

A 240Hz OLED offers very good motion clarity (only three blured pixels during very fast motioj 1000 pixels per second) comparable to plasma TV, in fact even better, because you get a true 240Hz instead of 60Hz (fast motion will show judder on a plasma TV). I don't think any owner of a 240 Hz OLED is going to complain about motion clarity, let alone owners of 480 Hz OLED and faster ones.
 
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KeplerL2 said:
Nah this is actually 500 IQ move by NVIDIA, since Rubin increases AI perf by 8x. So when they compare RTX 60 vs 50 with DLSS 4.5 the performance increase will look much bigger than it actually is.
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They are already moving in this direction with 50 series. These have larger increases in tensor AI cores than previous series and nvidia marketed 50 series as first AI gpu

AI rendering is here to stay
 
ozz ex machina said:
For every useful case of "AI" (a painfully broad term btw which doesn't really make sense) - there are 10x the bullshit products, draining resource, getting stupid estimates and valuations for things that will never be profitable. These things will turn the market and everyone against AI and it WILL crash.
Click to expand...
AI is like nuclear bomb, it has its uses and can be very good for humanity(threat of mutual destruction is the only reason we dont have ww3 even 70 years after ww2 ended), but in wrong hands it can be used towards really nasty things.
 
Bulletbrain said:
So, 4.0 "quality" framerate is roughly equal to 4.5 "performance". Is the image quality better in this scenario? I can't honestly tell. That itself makes this kind of pointless?
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with dlss 4, that was the case. dlss 4 performance often looked better than dlss 3 quality. hair looks cleaner with dlss 4.5 compared to all other options though.

in the end though, dlss 4.5 balanced runs 7% worse than dlss 4 quality on this GPU so if it fixes the problems of the DLSS 4, it might be used that way on older RTX GPUs
 
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Stick to DLSS4 is my advice. Better perf, better image quality. Hopefully their framegen update wont be this half assed
 
KeplerL2 said:
Nah this is actually 500 IQ move by NVIDIA, since Rubin increases AI perf by 8x. So when they compare RTX 60 vs 50 with DLSS 4.5 the performance increase will look much bigger than it actually is.
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Not really. It will be what it is.
 
yamaci17 said:
with dlss 4, that was the case. dlss 4 performance often looked better than dlss 3 quality. hair looks cleaner with dlss 4.5 compared to all other options though.

in the end though, dlss 4.5 balanced runs 7% worse than dlss 4 quality on this GPU so if it fixes the problems of the DLSS 4, it might be used that way on older RTX GPUs
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Do you have any insight into dlss 4 performance vs 4.5 ultra performance?
 
RafterXL said:
I'm excited to try out 4.5. People scoff at this stuff but it's literally extending the life and performance of Nvidia cards like never before. Last time they improved the model I gained performance by dropping down a tier while keeping the same IQ. I'm hoping to do the same again this time.

And I don't give a damn about MFG giving that I'll be using this 4090 for a while, but every time they improve 4x, and now 6x, it makes the 2x that much better, to the point that it has gone from basically unusable to be to something I use in multiple games.

It's kinda hilarious how there are still detractors to this stuff when it's clearly the best GPU tech introduced in a long ass time. And as much as I hate that Nvidia is all about AI these days, at least they are giving their gaming customers some tech that it the result of it, AMD didn't show shit that was interesting at their show and mentioned AI 200 times in an hour long show. It's no wonder the gap hasn't been closed at all.
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The people who hate DLSS are gaming at 1080p. DLSS is pretty much mandatory for 4k.
 


Post is claiming that the new presets are really only meant to be used with performance (M) and ultra performance (L) modes.

If you are still using quality or balanced you should just stick with preset K
 
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