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Air Strikes in Caracas

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Even in Ukraine, Europe is basically hiding behind USA while was buying Russian oil, whilst crying about USA not doing enough.
Europe as a whole has donated more than the USA to defend Ukraine. Almost double in fact. European purchasing of Russian oil has slowed to a trickle. Oil imports are basically almost fully eliminated and Gas is a fraction of what it once was, also on its way to stopping and will be almost done by the end of this year. You don't simply switch to an alternative with an economy of over 500 million people overnight.
 
It isn't. The USA already has all the permission it needs to operate militarily in Greenland. Nobody really knows why other than that Trump likes the idea of a country joining the US because they love him so much.

That is what I have said several times in this thread.
 
It isn't. The USA already has all the permission it needs to operate militarily in Greenland. Nobody really knows why other than that Trump likes the idea of a country joining the US because they love him so much.
Legacy. He wants to be the president that expanded the USA for the first time in forty years. One hundred and sixty since anything of significance.

As for others whispering in his ear? Greenland banning new oil drilling in 2021 might play a part.
 
There's obviously a lot one can unravel about the strike against Maduro. I will just focus on a few points and try to keep it brief. Some personal views on the whole affair and its implications, or lack of it.

The US has done similar missions before, acting unilaterally against international law against a dubious head of state. The most prominent example is the invasion of Panama in 1989, which resulted in hundreds of deaths on both sides and took over a month. The first year of the Trump presidency, for all its verbal awfulness, lack of decorum, and international maneuvers that sometimes defy logic, has been rather constrained in terms of the use of military power. So far, the two most prominent foreign interventions, against Iran and Venezuela, have been carried out with no losses on the US side and in record-breaking time. They also haven't escalated or dragged the US into commitments that lead to years of attrition without any gains.

There is, of course, the potential that the US will do something so harebrained that it will completely cut itself off from any reason. And apart from Trump himself, parts of the government keep stoking those fires, e.g. vis-à-vis Greenland. As stupid as all that is, so far it's rhetoric. The actual policy moves and the military actions can be read in several, even diametrically opposed, ways: smart 4D power moves against Russia or China, or carving up the world between the big powers. I don't think it's the latter at all, especially since there is much chaos at play in the administration itself, with different interests at work that all influence Trump or sell him their ideas. Rubio's influence is certainly more noticeable recently, with the focus on Venezuela and possibly Cuba.

Some observers, also in Germany, mostly the liberal-woke part of the political spectrum, but including others, have argued that this emboldens China and Russia. "Now China will have fewer constraints to strike Taiwan." That, in my view, is complete historical amnesia and shows a lack of understanding of politics in general. And I don't mean some realist Mearsheimer BS. On the US side, these actions aren't, as mentioned, unprecedented, and European countries have happily played along or even dragged the US into non-UN-sanctioned military interventions in the past, under the guise of human rights.

Russia, meanwhile, has tried killing Zelensky several times, and China likely wanted to kill Bi-Khim Hsiao in a traffic accident while she was in Prague. Even if we assume that China cares about international law in the European understanding of the term, they see Taiwan as completely removed from it, and among all other factors, including their international standing, it is the least of their concern. Decapitation strikes against the Taiwanese government and quick interventions to get rid of Lai and others have been their wet dream for at least a decade and have been circulating in propaganda, both domestically and directed toward Taiwan, including during their military exercises last week. No matter how deluded they are, Chinese leaders would at least know that since Taiwan is a functioning country, simply killing the head of state isn't enough, especially since they don't just want concessions or economic gains through military action, but to exterminate the ROC as an entity altogether. Even if the PLA had the same military prowess and accumulated experience as the US armed forces, something akin to Operation Absolute Resolve wouldn't accomplish their goals, but would only strengthen resolve in Taiwan.

Ultimately, deterrence and the US stance are what's holding them back, not some EU technocrats and their strongly worded speeches about peace in the Taiwan Strait.
 
Nobody really knows why other than that Trump likes the idea of a country joining the US because they love him so much.
Girl Eye Roll GIF
 
Russia is an enemy for Europe, not for USA anymore. Russia is not USSR and has trouble projecting power worldwide. In fact leveraging international law is what allows Russia to do anything - "intervening into other countries is bad, but those are mercenaries and not soldiers so it is not us" and such. The sheer inability to seize oil ships (due to international law) also helped them for a long time. Sending drugs using government planes? Everybody is doing that etc etc.

Even in Ukraine, Europe is basically hiding behind USA while was buying Russian oil, whilst crying about USA not doing enough.

Russia not the enemy of US? You have to be kidding me...

Before Georgia and Ukraine invasions (2014) western Europe thought that Russia is their new buddy, normal country that you can do interests with. It isn't...

Trump wants to do interests with Russia as well. You have to be an idiot to trust Russia about anything (both in military and business agreements).

People are eating up propaganda from right wing grifters (sponsored by RU).
 
You can't let a nuclear power completely collapse, not one as big as Russia was at the time. The power vacuum would've been devastating for the world.

Sadly, it was a necessary evil for self-preservation.

I'm also not against preventing big nations like that from collapsing into failed states, nuclear power or not. I'm not huge on sinking money into them endlessly, but I'm also not huge on tossing those people to the wind.

The fact that Russia took the absolute wrong lesson from it and re-enforced their awful tendencies doesn't really change that for me, it just means I think a more hands on approach would be needed. Ideally from the people near it and not necessarily us from the other side of the world.
 
I mean we're not that far. And I studied law so I see some patterns.

- Ruling through executive orders
- Congress having less and less power
- Reduced number of people in the government
- Wanting to control the presss by telling them what to say / the media being labeled as the ennemy when not agreeing with the government
- Not respecting the constitution
- No fair-due process/trial for some categories of people
- etc.

I saw these situations in countries like Hungary, Turkey, of course Russia, and we have far-right european politicians promissing to do the stuff listed above for "a beter governance of the country" and "take the country back".

Is the US in this situation ? Not quite there, but some in the administration are trying really hard to get there the fastest possible.

I don't think people back then thought they were in dictatorships. People in Russia, Hungary or Turkey truly believe they are in a democracy since they vote.

How is that a bad thing tho? Your taxes pay their salaries, big ass state that needs to collect more tax money to pay for inflated number of redundant jobs in the government doing who knows what is not a good thing 🤷‍♂️

Also "wanting to control the press" but said press and media in general are biased towards Democrats, so it's more like a defense mechanism when they bitch 24/7 about every move :pie_roffles:

Remember that Putin was a KGB agent. And often talks about how "the fall of the USSR was the greatest tragedy".
He is not a communist, but he is an Imperialist and a man that lived and still lives in the Cold War era mentality.
It was and is, very common for him to denounce the USA and Europe, publicly and openly.

I'm sure he wants the extension of land that once was the URSS, not the commie system as well, that's why Ukranie is under fire right now
He and Xi would love to rule their respective countries for eternity if they could
Yeah, because he does business with everyone, dirty or not, US keeps going against that, so he feels threatened
 
Just recently Russian troops were fighting US troops in Syria.
Because it was convenient to keep them there - and it was mainly Wagner who were able to achieve anything. Only once their mercenaries tried to approach american oil field and were obliterated. There were also "red lines" that Obama and co. were constantly threatening Russia with and nothing happened.

Nobody just wanted to do anything regarding them there.

The USA just removed Maduro, an ally of Russia.
USA could have removed him long time ago. but it was easier to "stand with people of Venezuela" than doing anything.


A lot of "influence" of Russia stems from the non-action from the west. "Oh no pls do not do that", while USA was too busy selling democracy to tribes that kill each other over a prophet 1200 years ago.

And the reason the US wants Greenland is because of the possibility Russia controlling the North Atlantic.
There several reasons (I will mention some)
- Greenland is basically an air carrier in the Arctic and control over it basically locks the Northern Fleet of Russia. Even if they have the fleet it is useless if they can't use it. It is like their Black Sea fleet obliteration. So Russia has no control over Black Sea anymore. It has some in the Baltic Sea, Sea of Japan and the Northern Fleet (though I do not remember if the northern fleet also a part of the Sea of Japan group).
- By owning Greenland, Denmark essentially has more influence over Arctic - USA has some, Russian has some, Canada has some.
- Greenland is a part of the Northern Trade Route. USA has some access to it but with Greenland it makes that route extremely vulnerable for China so investing into that route become an issue.

I do not know if Trump uses all the reasons or not, but instincts there are often guiding him correctly.

It is like with Panama Canal where China was willing to annex Hong Kong, whatever it takes. Has anything been done? No. While USA was looking at Panama being gradually swallowed by China and did nothing because "they wanted to look good for Europeans".

I think the annexation won't happen because it does not make sense - they have like 50k people. But some form of COFA - probably.
 
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I think the annexation won't happen because it does not make sense - they have like 50k people. But some form of COFA - probably.
It would be more about strategic military expansion/placement and a wealth of raw mineral and gas resources under all of that ice, now that technology has advanced enough to be able to extract it.
 
Before Georgia and Ukraine invasions (2014) western Europe thought that Russia is their new buddy, normal country that you can do interests with. It isn't...
So how those invasions affect USA? It is the issue for Turkey, Kazakhstan etc. But for USA? No. And Europe demonstrated as such - they did nothing.
 
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The US can take Greenland whenever it wants and Denmark can't do anything to stop it. Nor can anybody else. Pretending otherwise is just stupidity but I know the world has been in this sort of haze since 1945 where we pretend Europe is not a vassal state of the USA empire.

Not saying it should or would take Greenland, but that's the way of the world.
 
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The US can take Greenland whenever it wants and Denmark can't do anything to stop it. Nor can anybody else. Pretending otherwise is just stupidity but I know the world has been in this sort of haze since 1945 where we pretend Europe is not a vassal state of the USA empire.

Not saying it should or would take Greenland, but that's the way of the world.
That's exactly what Stephen Miller said:


"We live in a world, in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power," he said. "These are the iron laws of the world since the beginning of time."
 
That's exactly what Stephen Miller said:


"We live in a world, in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power," he said. "These are the iron laws of the world since the beginning of time."
It's just stupid to pretend otherwise. Pax Americana has given countries the space to pretend - UK and France can LARP as world powers, for example, when they are firmly under the heel - but it's pretend.

Not that I necessarily think that taking Greenland is a sign of strength. I think it's more of a sign of desperation. But to pretend some fucking treaty can stop the US from taking the land if it wants to is hilarious. We just saw the US kidnap a world leader on bullshit charges in like 20 minutes. The empire can do whatever it wants until somebody stops it, and Europe/Denmark can't stop it.
 
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Miller does not realize every strongest power in history collapsed under its own weight? Usually after expanding too far and having to spend more and more energy in maintaining control over vastly different peoples.
 
So how those invasions affect USA? It is the issue for Turkey, Kazakhstan etc. But for USA? No. And Europe demonstrated as such - they did nothing.

You wanted them to attack Russia or what?

This shattered any illusions that some countries had about Russia but of course western Europe still wanted that cheap gas. Lech Kaczyński (Polish president) warned the world in 2008, he said that Ukraine will be attacked in the future and he wasn't wrong.

And Russia expanding their interests absolutely should be a concern to USA, but according to some people Russia is an ally now so maybe not...
 
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That's exactly what Stephen Miller said:


"We live in a world, in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power," he said. "These are the iron laws of the world since the beginning of time."

I mean....he's not wrong. Might makes right. It always has and always will. Seems like the illusion of good will and collaboration is finally evaporating...
 
You wanted them to attack Russia or what?

This shattered any illusions that some countries had about Russia but of course western Europe still wanted that cheap gas. Lech Kaczyński (Polish president) warned the world in 2008, he said that Ukraine will be attacked in the future and he wasn't wrong.

And Russia expanding their interests absolutely should be a concern to USA, but according to some people Russia is an ally now so maybe not...

Russia was aligned specifically with Maduro. I fail to how this helps relations with Putin.

I think people just spin this to form whatever bullshit narrative suits them.
 
Miller does not realize every strongest power in history collapsed under its own weight? Usually after expanding too far and having to spend more and more energy in maintaining control over vastly different peoples.
And that's why they are cutting supports things that are not beneficial for USA in attempt to consolidate it. Europeans nations - aside Poland - did not even pay their dues for NATO, that supposed to defend them from Russia while openly trading with Russia (USA trade with Russia is and was minimal as usual). Then they also tariff and tried to control american companies etc.

So now Trump is trying to consolidate things that are important for USA instead of just spending billions on creating democracy in the ME, I think Iraq War would go like Venezuela - they would have get rid of Saddam and then just left. Would be like Syria with Assad at worst.
 
You wanted them to attack Russia or what?
So you see the issue? Russia went and did that and the only argument is - "YoU wAnT tHeM to AtTaCk RuSsiA?". They could have cut trade at that time. Easily. They did not bother. Until Ukranian war Russia had like 40% gas control over Europe. And the Ukrainian war started in 2022. They did not care.

Just like with Maduro - "I stand with Venezuelan people". Ok. So? People were screaming WW3 when Trump killed Suleimani who was basically the architect of the whole Shia Crescent project. He could have been killed long time ago. Nobody cared.

And that's the thing Trump is trying to fix. USA has close to zero trade with Russia. Russian main trade partner has always been Europe. All while Europe has a defense alliance against Russia. So it is enemy or not?
 
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So you see the issue? Russia went and did that and the only argument is - "YoU wAnT tHeM to AtTaCk RuSsiA?". They could have cut trade at that time. Easily. They did not bother. Until Ukranian war Russia had like 40% gas control over Europe. And the Ukrainian war started in 2022. They did not care.

Yeah, they should start sanctions around that time and looking for alternate sources of gas and oil. They did that only recently so way too late...

EU did a shit ton of dumb fuck decisions about Russia. But that's mostly because of "Russia is a normal country" illusion (and cheap oil and gas of course).
 
Wasn't just about oil. Reducing it to that is far too simplistic.

It's about protecting the hemisphere the US is in. China and Russia both reaped benefits from Venezuela. That's over now. They don't get to project power near us. They don't have the right to do so, and as we've shown they can't stop us from stopping them. This is our backyard, we control it and protect our interests. They don't get to ship drugs into the country, send prisoners and illegals over, and try and destabilize the west. The US has every right to defend its interests.

There's no such thing as international law. NATO and these other groups wouldn't even exist without the US, we are the arm they use to exert any potential form of control.
 
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Yeah, they should start sanctions around that time and looking for alternate sources of gas and oil. They did that only recently so way too late...

EU did a shit ton of dumb fuck decisions about Russia. But that's mostly because of "Russia is a normal country" illusion (and cheap oil and gas of course).
Russia has annexed Crimea and nothing happened. Condemnation? Was the country different at that time? No. Was the government different at that time? No. When China took over HK, what has happened? Condemnation?
 
I'm optimistic this operation won't have negative downstream effects, more in line with Panama/Noriega, removing Iraq from Kuwait, suppressing Somali piracy, or the operation that took out Osama bin Laden. We'll see.
 
Yeah, they should start sanctions around that time and looking for alternate sources of gas and oil. They did that only recently so way too late...

EU did a shit ton of dumb fuck decisions about Russia. But that's mostly because of "Russia is a normal country" illusion (and cheap oil and gas of course).
US did too. Freezing Russian assets in 2022 didn't start countries from leaving the dollar but it put that into warp speed.

If we want to have the world's reserve currency, you can't go around weaponizing it.
 
You can, but not while actively devaluing it yourself. :rolleyes:
Weaponizing it makes smaller countries wary. No one wants their wealth under the control of another that can just take it away.

But devaluing it certainly doesn't help either but that's been happening since the early 20th century and all other countries are doing the same to their currencies
 
Russia has annexed Crimea and nothing happened. Condemnation? Was the country different at that time? No. Was the government different at that time? No. When China took over HK, what has happened? Condemnation?

HK was given by UK, wasn't it?

Russia should be fucked economically at least in 2014, but no one did anything and that's why we are in this position.
 
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I would not be surprised if this nobel prize is one reasons why Trump decided to deal with Maduro like that. It would be a hilarious self own by liberals though - they thought they were smart when giving her a prize and not giving it to Trump ("eat this loser bla bla"). Remember a lot of liberals cheering and mocking Trump over that. Nobel Peace prize over "standing tough to Maduro". And then Trump went and then just kidnapped the guy :messenger_tears_of_joy:

HK was given by UK, wasn't it?
There was a lease time or something, but China has decided to do it earlier or something.
 
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I'm optimistic this operation won't have negative downstream effects, more in line with Panama/Noriega, removing Iraq from Kuwait, suppressing Somali piracy, or the operation that took out Osama bin Laden. We'll see.
What about the disastrous events caused by bombing Libya and helping overthrow Muammar Gaddafi?

Because that's what Obama did...

Ask the people who are screaming about what Trump did if they were fine with Obama doing something much worse. Strange how that works, huh?
 
What about the disastrous events caused by bombing Libya and helping overthrow Muammar Gaddafi?

Because that's what Obama did...

Ask the people who are screaming about what Trump did if they were fine with Obama doing something much worse. Strange how that works, huh?
And they did that because he was trying to free the people from international banksters.
 
Russia should be fucked economically at least in 2014, but no one did nothing and that's why we are in this position.
Of course and that's the whole thing. That's why Trump is much aggressive in his policies because he is trying to find an immediate (small or big) solution in the currently chaotic world. There are no immediate solution to complicated problems. Democracy in the Middle East? Really? Why?

Like post WW2, the government in Japan did not change that much - yeah the emperor became less powerful, but nobody deposed him or anything or replaced with some other figure.
 
Of course and that's the whole thing. That's why Trump is much aggressive in his policies because he is trying to find an immediate (small or big) solution in the currently chaotic world. There are no immediate solution to complicated problems. Democracy in the Middle East? Really? Why?

Like post WW2, the government in Japan did not change that much - yeah the emperor became less powerful, but nobody deposed him or anything or replaced with some other figure.

Trying to do democracy in ME is pointless waste of resources, they want Sharia law and theocracy - at least they think they do (until they don't like it anymore, happening currently in Iran).
 
Trying to do democracy in ME is pointless waste of resources, they want Sharia law and theocracy - at least they think they do (until they don't like it anymore, happening currently in Iran).
Exactly. Democracy is something you have to learn. Even in Europe we needed centuries and half of the Europe - eastern part - is not even completely there yet. And people are transitioning back in some places. Just like smb said - "Obama tried to install democracies in the ME and what we got was a Muslim Brotherhood".
 
What about the disastrous events caused by bombing Libya and helping overthrow Muammar Gaddafi?

Because that's what Obama did...

Ask the people who are screaming about what Trump did if they were fine with Obama doing something much worse. Strange how that works, huh?

If you're talking about partisan reactions, that's a fair separate point. My comment wasn't about defending Trump or criticizing liberals, though, it was just about how this operation compares to past cases in terms of likely outcomes. I'm optimistic that, like the examples I mentioned, this will result in minimal negative downstream effects.
 
Exactly. Democracy is something you have to learn. Even in Europe we needed centuries and half of the Europe - eastern part - is not even completely there yet. And people are transitioning back in some places. Just like smb said - "Obama tried to install democracies in the ME and what we got was a Muslim Brotherhood".

Yeah, wishful thinking from intellectuals - that you can change any society to be democratic quickly (same with "all cultures are equal").

Countries like Russia and china never had anything resembling functional democracy (China for 2 thousand years!), same is true for many other places.
 
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Feel like what's gonna happen is they ship the guy back to Venezuela, but now with a microchip in his head under our control to be bias towards any dealings with the US on oil.
And then he continue his dictator regime and execute all the people that were caught celebrating on TV.

And reddit protestors will be "why did trump send this madman back!"
 
Somebody created a new wallet on Polymarket and bet a huge sum of money that Israel would attack Iran by the end of January.

You know what is coming
 
Somebody created a new wallet on Polymarket and bet a huge sum of money that Israel would attack Iran by the end of January.

You know what is coming

Be Russia:
Ally with Venezuela
Venezuela gets BTFO'd by the Stars and Stripes

Be Russia:
Ally with Iran
Iran gets BTFO'd by the Stars and Stripes and Israel
 
If you're talking about partisan reactions, that's a fair separate point. My comment wasn't about defending Trump or criticizing liberals, though, it was just about how this operation compares to past cases in terms of likely outcomes. I'm optimistic that, like the examples I mentioned, this will result in minimal negative downstream effects.
Yeah sorry, i wasn't trying to go at you in particular. It was more of a general comment

I do agree with you. I think that we're likely to avoid a real "nation building" exercise in Venezuela as opposed to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and let's face it nobody in either party wants to do that again anytime soon if ever
 
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