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Was the Dreamcast actually powerful at launch? Or the beneficiary of no competition?

Was the Dreamcast a powerhouse at launch?

  • No

    Votes: 124 10.9%
  • Yes

    Votes: 1,014 89.1%

  • Total voters
    1,138
More revived Dreamcast online multiplayer.
I felt like exploding some stuff so I put Incoming in. It's one underrated 1998 launch title. It was also a lauded pack in for Voodoo 2 cards. Tons of on screen action, real time lights, shadows, endless projectiles, transparencies for smoke/fire, enemies and structures shatter into individual polygons as they explode etc., there's even some split screen co-op. I looked into the studio to see what else they made (even if not on DC) but I guess their potential remained unrealized and very tech demo style with no nuance in gameplay design even in later Xbox/PC titles like Gun Metal or Incoming Forces. It's sad, this engine would be great for some more serious, deeper, cooler cockpit games a la Gungriffon, MechWarrior, AMOK, Gundam Rise from the Ashes, Thunderstrike, or even some open terrain FPS stuff a la Delta Force (where they'd actually have to tone down the action and effects!). It would compare favorably to later games like Thunderstrike: Operation Phoenix with an art director. Its helicopters are nice (also play the best) but alien crafts look like programmer art. Anyway, it's hard to find decent footage so fools that fail basic directions like follow the arrow will have to do:​
Let's remember some good times from the thread's past while we're at it, straight from the resident experts who would only ironically imagine something like GTA III possible on a system they claimed was maxed out by PS ports like Re-Volt and was also essentially unable to do any transparencies..!​

So much talk of how it's impossible to stream, do transparency, or for an open world to run better than early tests with rendering full of purple glitches, missing assets, 5 fps, etc., now what's left is to cry at it running a tad worse than PS2 or some toned down effects with higher end PC content :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Airforce Delta/Deadly Skies is another fun launch game, panned for (not) being Ace Combat. It's not deep like Aero Dancing/Wings or pretty like Propeller Arena, textures/explosions aren't great and it didn't run in VGA (fan patches do), but is 60fps, attempts a neat cloud layer and has cool replays.​
 
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I finally managed to set up my flight stick with RetroArch and figured I'll try more Dreamcast flight games. So far Airforce Delta controls the best with it because it's quite simple and you can use rudder on the twist axis and thrust is on buttons, other games have thrust on L and R instead of rudder so that won't work on the twist axis and you gotta do some more creative remapping (that is, if like me you don't like using the stick's tiny throttle lever for thrust, otherwise they're fine also, unless with too many complicated toggles like StarLancer) or just stick with the standard gamepad controls. I guess the real solution would be to be able to map my hotas' throttle piece as well and stick thrust there but I haven't figured out how to use Thrustmaster's dodgy software to combine it as one device as I think you can't set up multiple devices (except mkb) for the same player/port in RetroArch.

So anyway, because of that I just discovered that Iron Aces' Japanese version is actually a very different game. It's fictional WWII era stuff in all versions of course and I suppose they went that route because in Japan they wanted you to play as the Japanese but not explicitly for the Axis, lol. So most of the missions appear to be different with different characters and much more character driven story stuff in between. You often play from the reverse pov of the Iron Aces releases (ie attack vs defend x) but it also seems to be a longer game with more missions total. Idk if that makes it meaningfully better (it's considered pretty mid but I guess is ok for the era, not that dissimilar to Airforce Delta above, if less exciting looking without missiles and jets and things). The cockpits are nice and sharp looking (and even though they're transparent for visibility they're still 3D and affected by your machinegun muzzle flash etc.) and the explosions are maybe better animated than those in Airforce Delta though they're both pretty low poly looking overall but this was a budget game like Simple series stuff. Both of these have PS2 sequels too (Airforce Delta also has an Xbox sequel).​
 
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Airforce Delta/Deadly Skies is another fun launch game, panned for not being Ace Combat. It's not deep like Aero Dancing/Wings or pretty like Propeller Arena, textures/explosions aren't great and it didn't support VGA (fan patches do), but is 60fps, attempts a neat cloud layer and has cool replays.​

AF Delta game total knock off of Ace Combat. The music, mission press screens and even says Bingo! after a kill.
 
I'd still give PS2 the edge overall, especially in areas related to geometry throughput and lighting, and non-opaque pixel fillrates, but the point is the gap between it and DC isn't really that massive of one most people who barely understand system architectures or go beyond basic paper specs would like to believe. If you take advantage of Dreamcast's hardware features with some thought & care, you can extract a lot out of the hardware.
This needs to be read over and over again by lotta folks on GAF and YT!
 
I didn't know they're actually making a DC game with Spiral Engine (same one that showed off the stencil shadow volumes and Doom 3 assets in a previous post), I thought they're just loading random assets to show off this or that feature, that's neat.


The SM64 port looks like it runs just about perfectly. However, I wish it got a graphical upgrade. Maybe people will do that in the future; we know the DC could easily get a better-looking version of that game running at 60. Maybe comparable with Sunshine for Gamecube.

Speaking of cancelled games getting finished, I'd really like if someone could finish that survival horror game Agatha. The concept sounded very novel and interesting, and the story seems like it'd of been a banger if the game were actually completed. Not like there aren't assets out there to use or build off of.



Oooh, makes me wonder what a R&C port to Dreamcast would look like 🤔...

This needs to be read over and over again by lotta folks on GAF and YT!

Some people have a weird fetish of treating the DC like an M2 when comparing it to PS2 (and is probably a slight on my part to M2 because it'd of probably been closer to a DC than N64 had it came out; we just don't know much anything about its GPU architecture or at least, I haven't found any documentation on that unfortunately). They just look at some paper specs and go with oft-repeated talking points that they don't even bother checking to see if they're true or not.

Now I'm gonna say something that'll probably ruffle some feathers: out of all the home consoles released across the 6th and 7th gens, I'd consider the Dreamcast and Xbox 360 as the "smartest", most wholly efficient architectures of the bunch. I'm including things like how forward-thinking they were, how they tackled certain challenges that could've been bottlenecks, price to performance, and influence on succeeding hardware design architectures among other things.

On those metrics, I think it's increasingly difficult to not consider the Dreamcast and Xbox 360 as the cream of the crop for console hardware between 1998 - 2012. Speaking purely home console hardware here tho, not handhelds or anything like that. Though I think GameCube is in close running with those, especially when looking at features of the TEV unit. OG Xbox is complicated, because while it was kind of indicative of the x86 shift consoles would take in the 2010s, its own design is kind of a hodgepodge and not totally elegant. It's part of the reason they wanted to move so quickly on to the 360.

I think the PS2's design was somewhat forward-thinking in terms of the eDRAM cache (something the 360 would utilize tho for a different purpose and more efficiently), and of course DVD (that was an inevitability tho IMHO). And the VU0 and VU1 units being precursors to an extend for enabling the type of custom graphics programming that GPU shader cores would take up the role of in successive generations. But it lacked a lot of hardware-accelerated features in areas it could've, and relied on tons of multi-passing with lackluster compression (3:1 indexed palette texture compression support only) and heavy immediate mode rendering to achieve its performance. A design philosophy the rest of the industry was kind of starting to shift away from.

And the PS3? Well, I don't even need to really go into that one. Split memory space (and no external ASIC to at least enable data acquisition for multiple components to reduce copying from main RAM to VRAM), non-unified shaders, cumbersome method (vs 360) for doing procedural geometry synthesis, and I still think Blu-Ray as a push wasn't worth it or at least they maybe could've done it with a cheaper new PS2 model instead and still gotten the adoption rates needed to win the format wars without losing so much money on PS3 to do so. The SPEs in Cell being an evolution of the vector units from PS2, and even more a precursor to the more GPGPU-centric shaders GPUs would adopt in the following years. Though, the Cell itself was something of a dead end, since it assumed that type of work would stay CPU-side when in fact it shifted to the GPU (and the 360's GPU already had some very early consideration for GPGPU since it supported vector5 SIMD where the 5th unit could be used for some different non-graphics tasks, IIRC, tho it wasn't particularly great at it).

That said, a lot of this can be said thanks to power of hindsight; with PS3 & 360 in particular no one could have definitively said which design would have became favored until some time after their launch, into early 2008 I'd argue. That was enough time after PS3's launch to really gauge things between it and 360 to see which design was doing more for 3P devs of the era.
 
Some people have a weird fetish of treating the DC like an M2 when comparing it to PS2 (and is probably a slight on my part to M2 because it'd of probably been closer to a DC than N64 had it came out; we just don't know much anything about its GPU architecture or at least, I haven't found any documentation on that unfortunately). They just look at some paper specs and go with oft-repeated talking points that they don't even bother checking to see if they're true or not.

Now I'm gonna say something that'll probably ruffle some feathers: out of all the home consoles released across the 6th and 7th gens, I'd consider the Dreamcast and Xbox 360 as the "smartest", most wholly efficient architectures of the bunch. I'm including things like how forward-thinking they were, how they tackled certain challenges that could've been bottlenecks, price to performance, and influence on succeeding hardware design architectures among other things.

On those metrics, I think it's increasingly difficult to not consider the Dreamcast and Xbox 360 as the cream of the crop for console hardware between 1998 - 2012. Speaking purely home console hardware here tho, not handhelds or anything like that. Though I think GameCube is in close running with those, especially when looking at features of the TEV unit. OG Xbox is complicated, because while it was kind of indicative of the x86 shift consoles would take in the 2010s, its own design is kind of a hodgepodge and not totally elegant. It's part of the reason they wanted to move so quickly on to the 360.

I think the PS2's design was somewhat forward-thinking in terms of the eDRAM cache (something the 360 would utilize tho for a different purpose and more efficiently), and of course DVD (that was an inevitability tho IMHO). And the VU0 and VU1 units being precursors to an extend for enabling the type of custom graphics programming that GPU shader cores would take up the role of in successive generations. But it lacked a lot of hardware-accelerated features in areas it could've, and relied on tons of multi-passing with lackluster compression (3:1 indexed palette texture compression support only) and heavy immediate mode rendering to achieve its performance. A design philosophy the rest of the industry was kind of starting to shift away from.
I get what you mean, and both the Dreamcast and the 360 follow a very safe hardware design but it means games tailored for that system just look generic. With the PS2, despite its lack of VRAM, games (including third party) had to focus on geometry and particle effects to compensate for the lack of vRAM, meaning that certain ports of games look unique on the PS2. Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2 is an example of where the PS2 version isn't overly inferior, but uses the strengths of the PS2 to look 'unique' compare to the other console and PC versions of the game. Whilst it lacks the texture detail of the Xbox version, the PS2 version compensates with its animation and physics.


PS3 did at least have Quincunx Anti-Aliasing, whilst the 360 had 'free' 4xMSAA thanks to it's eDRAM configuration which gave them a unique look, but that's about it. Others have mentioned the distinct RGB difference between the ATI and Nvidia GPU's used, but I personally can't really see that much of a difference.

It's like the N64 vs the PlayStation for third party games. You had to choose between blurry but Anti-Aliasing games with minimal loading times, vs games with FMV's but with no AA or texture filtering. There really isn't any superior version aside from personal preference.
 
Now I'm gonna say something that'll probably ruffle some feathers: out of all the home consoles released across the 6th and 7th gens, I'd consider the Dreamcast and Xbox 360 as the "smartest", most wholly efficient architectures of the bunch.
That depends entirely on what you define as 'smart' or 'efficient'. Eg. by basically every metric of utilising hw - GC was in a class of its own for efficiency - as you'd get high hardware utilization at a fraction of developer effort needed for every other console - especially compared to the HD twins that required a ton of hand-holding because of their CPU/memory architecture being such a mess.
Now does that make it 'smart'? - again, what are we even defining under this category?

If we want to talk 'forward thinking' - that's a different discussion alltogether. PS2 'IME' was the only console to both spearhead and keep up with the CG evolution of the following decade+ (even beyond that if we include things like mesh-shaders).
But it's also not entirely a fair comparison. Eg: 360/PS3 entirely missed out on the TAA / PBS bandwagon - not because the hardware couldn't do it - but because the market was no longer around by the time the software got there - so there was 'forward looking' elements that just didn't happen in their respective commercial lifespans.

I think the PS2's design was somewhat forward-thinking in terms of the eDRAM cache (something the 360 would utilize tho for a different purpose and more efficiently)
PS2 was not designed with eDram cache - it was a working memory, unlike 360's which indeed operated just as cache. But yes there was forward-thinking behind that (basically moving FX industry approaches into realtime). The whole point of making memory access 'free' was that you can treat it like a giant register file (1000x the size of other hardware) ie. 'multipass' performs the same as register combiners so there's no downsides to it.
What hurt PS2 approach the most was the failure to fit their design onto target node - ie. we only got 4MB instead of 8.

A design philosophy the rest of the industry was kind of starting to shift away from.
At the time - the field was still wide open (and there were other attempts at doing what PS2 did - from Voodoo to Microsoft's own Talisman). Eventually history remembers what came out on the other side of course.

And the PS3? Well, I don't even need to really go into that one.
What makes PS3 interesting is that so much of the original thinking was left of the cutting room floor. Ie. it has more in common with something like Saturn (lots of last minute changes/fallbacks and hacking things together) than the well thought out architecture of some of the contemporaries.
 
I get what you mean, and both the Dreamcast and the 360 follow a very safe hardware design
Right. Dreamcast paved the way for the new gen and was a tremendous gap compared to PS1/Sat/N64, yet it was somehow a very safe and easy hardware design lol. SEGA just had to copy/paste the equivalent hardware designs of all consoles of the same category, which amounted to the incredible number of... 0! So many choices to pick from to ensure making a good hardware...

Putting a PowerVR was for sure a very safe hardware decision, we had so much feedback about it, it was the most evident thing to do, right ?

And the 360 was also, with a doubt, the most logical and safe hardware design possible. After all, PowerPC was predominant in the console market before the 360 was released.

All of this to try and justify PS2 games looking like absolute shit 🙃

Reality is that both MS and SEGA made excellent hardware choices for the DC and X360 (outside of reliability, which Sony consoles were not either anyway), while Sony made shitty decisions with the PS2 and PS3, but still managed to force their way out thanks to the momentum they had gained.

Everything looked like shit, but we had these tiny sparkles added to the picture and it made a complete difference.
 
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Pretty nice comparison between NFL2K2 on the Dreamcast vs NFK2K2 for the PS2...



I'm not sure of there are different day/ night cycles present in the PS2 game. But it does have additional lighting effects with the 'bloom' coming off the giant back panel lights and the additional multi directional shadows. Textures are a little different. The PS2 game looks a little more 'grey scale' as you can see the pelleted textures at work.

The Dreamcast is showing off its larger texture cache and higher colour textures. The Dreamcast game has less 'shimmering' an issue with the PS2 hardware, as the Dreamcast could output 480p through VGA. Overall for a late 2001 game, NFL2K2 looks really good on the Dreamcast. I feel like the system never really hit its' theoretical peak. I do like how 'clean' the Dreamcast version looks overall.

One of the biggest upgrades for the PS2 game is the jump to DVD format. Meaning that the devs could throw in a lot better color commentary and even include personal bios for each player. The larger disc medium did allow VC to add better commentary,

Sadly, the series the NFL2K series peaked at NFL2K5, when EA and the NFL created a long withstanding exclusivity contract that probably made football games go stagnant due to the lack of competition. Visual Concepts was really giving EA a run for their money.
 
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Pretty nice comparison between NFL2K2 on the Dreamcast vs NFK2K2 for the PS2...



I'm not sure of there are different day/ night cycles present in the PS2 game. But it does have additional lighting effects with the 'bloom' coming off the giant back panel lights and the additional multi directional shadows. Textures are a little different. The PS2 game looks a little more 'grey scale' as you can see the pelleted textures at work.

The Dreamcast is showing off its larger texture cache and higher colour textures. The Dreamcast game has less 'shimmering' an issue with the PS2 hardware, as the Dreamcast could output 480p through VGA. Overall for a late 2001 game, NFL2K2 looks really good on the Dreamcast. I feel like the system never really hit its' theoretical peak. I do like how 'clean' the Dreamcast version looks overall.

One of the biggest upgrades for the PS2 game is the jump to DVD format. Meaning that the devs could throw in a lot better color commentary and even include personal bios for each player. The larger disc medium did allow VC to add better commentary,

Sadly, the series the NFL2K series peaked at NFL2K5, when EA and the NFL created a long withstanding exclusivity contract that probably made football games go stagnant due to the lack of competition. Visual Concepts was really giving EA a run for their money.

Since this game was released when DC was already dead, probably VC didn´t saw any reason to upgrade the models and improve further the graphics to reach the DC limits or beyond. I think at least the character models could have been more detailed LODs at least on the faces, just like NHL 2K2, on close up shots.
 
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