Support NeoGAF

[Gaiff]

finally a reasonable take on this thread. this is a really weird situation, it feels like enabling ray reconstruction enables hidden settings that are otherwise not enabled even with ultra preset

I said this on the first page.

 

[Bojji]

should look better at native res?

Yeah, but it will be unplayable in 4K on 9070XT. For lower resolutions this might be ok.

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

Man this is strange as hell.. standard denoiser can't be working properly or something is not adding up..

 

[Zathalus]

DF makes a video focusing on the PS5 Pro, stating it is the only version they have access to and other consoles will come later - Complaints about why are they only focusing on the Pro.

DF makes a video highlighting the difference RR can make over console versions (due the enormous visual impact) and that a detailed PC optimization video will come later - Complaints about why they are not offering a optimization video.

Yeah, that tracks.

 

[roosnam1980]

Yeah, but it will be unplayable in 4K on 9070XT. For lower resolutions this might be ok.

wont mind native1080p..................on my 9060xt

 

[yamaci17]

I said this on the first page.

sorry

 

[Bojji]

DF makes a video focusing on the PS5 Pro, stating it is the only version they have access to and other consoles will come later - Complaints about why are they only focusing on the Pro.

DF makes a video highlighting the difference RR can make over console versions (due the enormous visual impact) and that a detailed PC optimization video will come later - Complaints about why they are not offering a optimization video.

Yeah, that tracks.

DF does some stupid things from time to time (and farm videos on big releases) but blind hate here is really something. And watching the video would answer most of that questions (performance video coming at launch etc.).

 

[PeteBull]

These modern game engines just gimp features that were standard with traditional rasterization methods and put it back in with more expensive methods like RR that tank performance.

That cant be helped, bro, only gonna get worse in 2-3years once nextgen consoles(especially ps6) is on the market.
Once ps6 with its really decent ai upscaling and rt capabilities becomes baseline, the devs will treat older/ non rt capable gpu's like some annoying mosquitos, so we all gotta make sure to stay at/above ps6 lvl of performance when that time comes (likely sometime between 2030 and 2032, we will experience very long crossgen period).

Im sure u remember similar phenomenon when ps4 became baseline, suddenly 2gigs vram 750ti that could trade blows and sometimes even win vs console versions before wasnt enough and by late 2016 ps4's pc equivalent in many cases became much stronger 1050ti with its 4gigs of vram(luckily by then it was lowend almost entry lvl pc gpu with msrp of 140$ so it wasnt that bad).

 

[MazingerDUDE]

should look better at native res?

It's already running at 40fps WITH FSR4 performance (1080p native) on 9070

 

[roosnam1980]

It's already running at 40fps WITH FSR4 performance (1080p native) on 9070

i meant the pixelated image quality with upscaler enabled

 

[salva]

Hopefully there's a balance of settings to at least get 60fps with ray reconstruction on a 5070ti. That's a night and day difference between the standard denoiser used in all the consoles vs pc.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

My options are:
4090 with oled, "family" shared, for $56 or
Base ps5, lcd for $74

Hmmmm

 

[Luipadre]

So I'm fucked with my 5070TI

Not really unless you hate framegen which would be stupid

 

[MazingerDUDE]

i meant the pixelated image quality with upscaler enabled

so you're suggesting that we disable the upscaler to make everything look pixelated

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Not really unless you hate framegen which would be stupid

it would be stupid to use framegen for anything under 60fps

 

[roosnam1980]

so you're suggesting that we disable the upscaler to make everything look pixelated

ray-reconstruction with/without upscaler campared , is what i want to see

 

[viveks86]

The differences can be quite stark sometimes.

This can't just be the denoiser though. It almost seems like the PC version casts more rays or something.

That's exactly why these AI denoisers are called reconstruction or regeneration. It takes whatever sparse noisy data and infers it to completion, while a non-AI denoiser removes it completely as it doesn't know how to reconstruct with such low sampling. 1/16 rays per pixel is crazy low.

Fantastic stuff really. And a decent showing for AMD RR too, given this is their first game ever where RTGI is used.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Next gen is now. My copy is ready!

 

[SlimySnake]

Once again us 5080 peasants gonna have to chose between nextgen lighting and 60fps at decent enough IQ( 4k dlssed perfomance is 1080p internal res).
Under those settings game drops into 50s easily on 5080 which means we will have to go with ultra perf 4k dlss aka internal res of 720p- 1/9th of 4k native pixels compared to 1/4th with dlss perf which siginficantly degrades IQ even more
5090 master race wont experience that problem at all, hell maybe they can even play game on 4k dlss balanced, if only i spent 4k usd on my gpu...

This is on the Cinematic preset. In my experience with Wukong, most of these are very expensive without any sizeable return.

just set your game to Ultra and it will take the framerate above 60 fps. then lock to 60 and gysnc will handle any minor drops.

Damn, all that missing AO is back with RR...

the funny thing is that they couldve fixed this without using ray reconstruction. use more rays per pixel like everyone else. have them scale with the High, Ultra and Cinematic presets. This forces people to use ray regeneration which itself is a very expensive technique. especially on older gen hardware like the 30 and 40 series. AMD is seeing a 24% hit in performance.

 

[seb85]

90% of people won't experience this

 

[M.W.]

90% are plebs

 

[Stuart360]

it would be stupid to use framegen for anything under 60fps

It doesnt always work like that.
One of the benchmarkers i watch has started showing latency on screen with his benchmarks, and as long as you have the Nvidia latency thing turned on (my mind just went blank with the correct nname lol), the latency can actually go DOWN when turning on FG. I know that sounds silly but its true.

Also i have forced vsync on through Nvidia control panel before, and turned on FG to get a locked 60fps in games, and sure it feels more like 30-40fps but if you are used to playing games at 30fps (i used to be a console gamer too until the 360/ps3 gen), you can get that 60fps look while saving resources for other stuff like higher resolutions. although i have to admit that it only seems to work with DLSS FG. AMD FG can make a game run funny and stuttery doing it that way.

 

[Von Hugh]

Since when denoisers have the ability to erase AO out of existence? It looks like it's completely missing, weird.

Depending on denoise radius they can.

Welcome to modern graphics development where we invent something, then invent something that removes the invention, then we invent another thing that brings back the removed invention.

 

[Luipadre]

it would be stupid to use framegen for anything under 60fps

50 fps is fine. Also the new improved framegen is right around the corner

 

[Stuart360]

90% of people won't experience this

And 100% of console owners wont.

 

[Senua]

90% of people won't experience this

 

[Bojji]

90% of people won't experience this

And 100% of console owners wont.

At the same time ~95% of console players won't experience Pro version, just sucky base console versions.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

50 fps is fine. Also the new improved framegen is right around the corner

you'd get 50 actual frames when you enable framegen on 60fps games. It's already running 50fps on 5080. Using framegen on 5070Ti will be like 30fps with fake frames.

 

[Diego Brasil]

PC? Which PC?

A 5080 with ray reconstruction, the game ran at 50 fps, even with DLSS on performance.

And the character was standing still in a scene with no enemies... hahaImagine in a scene with several enemies... haha

 

[Bojji]

you'd get 50 actual frames when you enable framegen on 60fps games. It's already running 50fps on 5080. Using framegen on 5070Ti will be like 30fps with fake frames.

5070ti is like 87% of 5080 performance.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

It doesnt always work like that.
One of the benchmarkers i watch has started showing latency on screen with his benchmarks, and as long as you have the Nvidia latency thing turned on (my mind just went blank with the correct nname lol), the latency can actually go DOWN when turning on FG. I know that sounds silly but its true.

Also i have forced vsync on through Nvidia control panel before, and turned on FG to get a locked 60fps in games, and sure it feels more like 30-40fps but if you are used to playing games at 30fps (i used to be a console gamer too until the 360/ps3 gen), you can get that 60fps look while saving resources for other stuff like higher resolutions. although i have to admit that it only seems to work with DLSS FG. AMD FG can make a game run funny and stuttery doing it that way.

I used play 30fps game on ps360 era, but I'm never going back even though I'm a console guy

 

[SlimySnake]

And 100% of console owners wont.

And its stupid. No one asked them to target high resolutions and framerates on consoles to try and trick other people into thinking their engine is so much more optimized. What they've done is that they have forced essentially a last gen game on all last gen owners when they couldve simply used a higher quality ray tracing model with more rays per pixel. I mean thats the entire point of per pixel ray tracing, to get a higher coverage.

We havent seen this kind of difference between PC and Consoles in RTGI coverage and AO in other games. AC Shadows, Avatar, and other games dont have this large of a gap. A gap this large is typically only seen when we enable Path Tracing on PCs.

I am all for optimizing games based on the capability of the hardware, but this is bad optimization. especially on the Pro. The game's ray tracing on console looks barely better than baked GI let alone Lumen, and other RTGI solutions.

 

[MisterXDTV]

PC? Which PC?

The question nobody ever wants to answer...

"PC" doesn't mean shit without the exact hardware specs

 

[Stuart360]

I used play 30fps game on ps360 era, but I'm never going back even though I'm a console guy

Well to be honest i dont do it much either. I just mean there is an option available to help with lower end systems.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

5070ti is like 87% of 5080 performance.

maybe 35 then, but does that matter?

And its stupid. No one asked them to target high resolutions and framerates on consoles to try and trick other people into thinking their engine is so much more optimized. What they've done is that they have forced essentially a last gen game on all last gen owners when they couldve simply used a higher quality ray tracing model with more rays per pixel. I mean thats the entire point of per pixel ray tracing, to get a higher coverage.

We havent seen this kind of difference between PC and Consoles in RTGI coverage and AO in other games. AC Shadows, Avatar, and other games dont have this large of a gap. A gap this large is typically only seen when we enable Path Tracing on PCs.

I am all for optimizing games based on the capability of the hardware, but this is bad optimization. especially on the Pro. The game's ray tracing on console looks barely better than baked GI let alone Lumen, and other RTGI solutions.

None of the previous videos and screen shots had these ray reconstruction magics, yet people rooted for its visual fidelity. And now it suddenly became worse than baked gi and lumen

 

[OLED_Gamer]

fsr ray regeneration looks horrible, it basically mitigates AI upscaling

I didn't even notice the issues until they zoomed 1000% in. Maybe i'm crazy but at a normal viewing distance it still looked good. Not Nvidia great, but still good.

PC? Which PC?

A 5080 with ray reconstruction, the game ran at 50 fps, even with DLSS on performance.

And the character was standing still in a scene with no enemies... hahaImagine in a scene with several enemies... haha

Cinematic settings though. Use Ultra or High and lose almost nothing noticeable but likely gain a ton in FPS.

 

[Bojji]

maybe 35 then, but does that matter?

Math says 43.5FPS. So base for frame gen is there.

Of course dropping some settings will fix this very quickly.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Math says 43.5FPS. So base for frame gen is there.

Of course dropping some settings will fix this very quickly.

So, in the end, it's not the frame gen that saves the day, you just lower your settings

 

[Bojji]

So, in the end, it's not the frame gen that saves the day, you just lower your settings

Depending on how tolerant people are to frame gen. I tolerate it in some games, hate in others and so on...

 

[YeulEmeralda]

To think that there are still those who doubt our lord Jensen.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Depending on how tolerant people are to frame gen. I tolerate it in some games, hate in others and so on...

Agree with that 100% About 30% of PS5 users play their games in 30fps mode, but it would be stupid to call someone who does not use frame gen as means to optimize game stupid

 

[Cumulus]

thank god for pc. Simply pushing the settings up into pc exclusive territory fixes most of my graphical complaints concerning the lighting...

Thanks, preordered.
Why they didn't show this before in any gameplay material so far only god knows....


One sentence should give the "it's so optimized" crowd some food for thought:
"Switching the denoiser is almost as if switching between no rtgi and rtgi"

This game was never exceptionally optimized.... They just got creative with the settings their spec sheets actually target. The moment all bells and whistles are on this is just as heavy as any other game with that feature set....

 

[yamaci17]

And its stupid. No one asked them to target high resolutions and framerates on consoles to try and trick other people into thinking their engine is so much more optimized. What they've done is that they have forced essentially a last gen game on all last gen owners when they couldve simply used a higher quality ray tracing model with more rays per pixel. I mean thats the entire point of per pixel ray tracing, to get a higher coverage.

We havent seen this kind of difference between PC and Consoles in RTGI coverage and AO in other games. AC Shadows, Avatar, and other games dont have this large of a gap. A gap this large is typically only seen when we enable Path Tracing on PCs.

I am all for optimizing games based on the capability of the hardware, but this is bad optimization. especially on the Pro. The game's ray tracing on console looks barely better than baked GI let alone Lumen, and other RTGI solutions.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Absolutely true nobody actually would need to go beyond Ultra Settings here

But I would be curious to know what makes the Cinematic preset so much more demanding than the Ultra Preset

I saw the previous video and it run basically 4K 60 at Ultra on a 7900 XTX, that is not better than the current 9070 XT, maybe a little better in raster but not by much

 

[Diego Brasil]

I didn't even notice the issues until they zoomed 1000% in. Maybe i'm crazy but at a normal viewing distance it still looked good. Not Nvidia great, but still good.

Cinematic settings though. Use Ultra or High and lose almost nothing noticeable but likely gain a ton in FPS.

This scene... the character was in an enclosed space, without enemies, and still standing still...

On a 5080 in DLSS PERFORMACE , the game runs at 50 fps.

Lowering the quality to ultra or high... let's say in the best case... the game goes to 80 fps in this scene.

80 fps in this scene... now imagine an open space, several enemies and a lot of things happening... 80 fps will definitely drop below 60 fps.

Remember, 5080 (machines of this level are 3% to 4% of Steam's production).

In short, the vast majority of PC gamers won't play with Ray Reconstruction in this game... then there will be a lot of PC gamers saying it's better than the console... even though the vast majority don't have that level of machine.


So, the correct question isn't "the PC gamer is better"... but "which PC gamer is better?"

 

[ReBurn]

Digital Foundry has gone downhill, all they do is glaze now or bitch about stuttering in UE5 games. No deep technical analysis of the settings.

He said that a settings optimization video would be coming but he wanted to highlight this denoiser.

 

[Bojji]

To think that there are still those who doubt our lord Jensen.

 

[delishcaek]

I will make my own "balanced mode" on PC. Gonna limit to 40fps and torture my 4070ti Super.

Hope they fix the rain issues. I wouldn't want to miss out on that great looking rain by using RR.

 

[Bojji]

This scene... the character was in an enclosed space, without enemies, and still standing still...

On a 5080 in DLSS PERFORMACE , the game runs at 50 fps.

Lowering the quality to ultra or high... let's say in the best case... the game goes to 80 fps in this scene.

80 fps in this scene... now imagine an open space, several enemies and a lot of things happening... 80 fps will definitely drop below 60 fps.

Remember, 5080 (machines of this level are 3% to 4% of Steam's production).

In short, the vast majority of PC gamers won't play with Ray Reconstruction in this game... then there will be a lot of PC gamers saying it's better than the console... even though the vast majority don't have that level of machine.


So, the correct question isn't "the PC gamer is better"... but "which PC gamer is better?"

Who cares who will play with what settings? On PC YOU CAN use RR (AMD) or RR (nvidia) if you have capable hardware (there are millions of GPUs better than Pro). On consoles you don't have that option.

And most console gamers (~95%) will be forced to play base console versions that will be the worst.

 

[Autistic_Pancake]

The more vids I see, the firmer my belief in "it's just Black Desert Online on crack" becomes. This thing inherited all of its predecessor's issues, and somehow it gets praised?
These pitch black shadows. Weirdly enough, BDO had them too with no ray tracing in sight.

What even is this thing? Why the immediate area around a FIRE BURNING looks like it's about to spawn some kind of shadowy abomination that would extinguish all light from this world?

And this! It's like a stock high contrast mode no sane person would ever use, or a typical "trust me bro, it's better" preset for Reshade.

I'd be happy for them if the game turns out to be good. Visually, though - it's both sweet and toxic to the eyes.