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Thomas Mahler expressed reservations on Crimson Desert's level designs and open world interactivity
- Thread starter LectureMaster
- Start date
- Opinion
Durin
Member
This weekend? Think I'll make me a mage or ranger character.Director of both Ori games and no rest for the wicked. He's based.
Also when we playing NRFW @BeardSpikeDurin ??
pudel
Member
You have fast travel points and you can fly. Should be fine that way.
Chuck Berry
Gold Member
How about Thomas Mahler expresses when the console release date is for No Rest For The Wicked
saintjules
Gold Member
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Are we suggestion game developers are not allowed to give their opinions on a game in development? If that's your suggestion, that's fine. I don't feel strongly one way or another about it at the moment.
But right now it sounds like making up new rules and special exceptions as you go along to fit the argument you're trying to make at the time you're making it.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Yikes.
March Climber
Member
The only way I see someone doing this back and forth in Crimson Desert is if they decide to use zero flying mounts nor fast traveling.
Which ultimately means that's on them.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
He may say whatever he likes, same as I do.
My point is that he's not giving an insightful view on the matter, because he has not played the game. His "I'm an expert" means nothing. Besides, he's invalidating the opinion of someone else who, in this particular case, has first hand knowledge.
March Climber
Member
Same, but he also should have waited just two more days before jumping out with a take.
Gekikara
Member
A massive superiority complex or a deep kinship with the guys at Nintendo and FromSoft who are his only true equals?
Come on man, his broader point is correct but it's silly to zero in like this on a game you haven't even played that is 2 days away from release and make definitive statements about its game world. Especially if you're a game dev yourself.
"My name is Thomas Mahler, I've been a game dev for 17 years and a genius for much longer. I, however, could not populate a giant open world with meaningful content. Nintendo and FromSoft? They're geniuses just like me. They also couldn't do it. So what chance do these Korean no-name bums have, huh? Ich warte."
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saintjules
Gold Member
If I was 14 again I'd foam at the mouth at large world maps in games because I didn't have a job and therefore could not buy many games. So when I had one game like an RPG with a large map, I'd be excited. Now with thankful disposable income I have too many games to play and finish. Good problem to have I suppose.
But sometimes when playing these large open worlds, you're kinda like, "when is this shit gonna be over?" But for Crimson Desert? Not this time. At least for now that's my feeling about it in terms of my excitement.
But sometimes when playing these large open worlds, you're kinda like, "when is this shit gonna be over?" But for Crimson Desert? Not this time. At least for now that's my feeling about it in terms of my excitement.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Using From as open world geniuses is an interesting take. Yes Elden Ring was good, beautifully crafted world, but was a mere open world souls formula versus tradition open world brimming with dynamic content.
Use Rockstar next time, especially with RDR2 and soon to be GTA6. People are still discovering new things in RDR2 to this day.
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Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
I agree with most of that. The only part I disagree with is that I think his view/opinion is insightful. Whether or not it's valuable is up for debate.
Self High Five
Member
"I'm somewhat of an expert in level design myself"
calico
Member
I think there are merits to both approaches, depending on what you're trying to achieve. You want quality content, but I don't think it's a given that it's better to have a small area jam packed with content than to spread that same content out over a larger environment.
The world (and its believability in terms of scale) can have value beyond just serving as the vessel for 'content'. There are trade-offs to keeping the map size small just to maximise density of content.
The world (and its believability in terms of scale) can have value beyond just serving as the vessel for 'content'. There are trade-offs to keeping the map size small just to maximise density of content.
panda-zebra
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Avid Reading Horse
Gold Member
Who uses the word "captivating" anyway? Sounds like something a neglected housewife would say about a paperback with Fabio on the cover.
panda-zebra
Member
Since my whole timeline is full of people swooning about
thomasmahler
's claim that patch 1 is a whopper, let me share what's going through my mind:I've been doing patches for 17 years now - IPS isn't a tool, it's my religion, in school I was so patchy they called me Patchy McPatchface (actually they called me a cunt, but they were mean like that), I even did the elbows on my tweed smoking jacket in leather from a 4-day-old pot belly pig, so I think I can share some valuable insight.
I always find it a bit worrying when everyone gets excited about 'oh my god, they crafted an insanely huge patch!'.
In fact, I have basically the exact opposite reaction, which is more like: 'Oh no, they started with a shit game, I hope they had an army of patch designers to actually patch in a meaningful one instead of just a half-arsed early access empty husk.
I know how difficult it is to design good patches and how much time it takes us to build ours - so just hearing that, I already know that there's likely not going to be a lot of actual good patch design in No Rest For The Wicked Together.
And I actually don't want to sound too disparaging or ruin anyone's fun because No Rest For The Wicked Together certainly looks insane and I can't wait to cozy up my realm when it actually reaches full release, but I also know how important and how underrated good patch design is for a title and what the effect is if you have to OK huge, but empty patches.
I'd say at this point even some of the best studios in the world weren't able to crack that nut. Even Nintendo struggled for a long time with the patch size of Breath of the Wild and ultimately they had to put hundreds of devs on it to patch it up with content, but even then, did they add text chat? Did they fuck! Such lukewarm experiences.
Since procedural patch generation produces pretty crappy results and since we don't have AI yet that can actually create well designed patches, the only way out of feeling like being in an lonely world is to patch in epic duels. Minecraft did that and it was quite genius - but I doubt that's what MGS is going for.
I understand the allure of 'they created an entire Realm Diary!', but be careful what you wish for: In Gaming Patches, huge usually also means extremely shallow.
FalconPunch
Member
It starts to makes sense why there's so much random shit in the game that doesn't jive with the medieval theme. I guess the game started as an mmo first but still.
This idea that more content is better is just dumb. Like i'd rather have 1 top cut steak than 10 hotdogs. I've watched a lot of preview content for CD and I can't see why it has any hype.
All they talk about is how much stuff there is to do but, they never talk about why anyone would want to do it. None of the content has looked particularly engaging to me from a gameplay perspective.
Maybe it'll end up being a sleeper hit for me like KCD2.
Signalis
Member
He's starting to sound like Phil Fish
LectureMaster
Or is it just one of Adam's balls in my throat?
Yeah I think what he meant is that even crazy geniuses like From and Nintendo couldn't fill every inch of the open worlds with interactivity and quality level design.
He thinks RockStar is the only one pulled this off with big scale open world.
But yeah, you either pump out copy paste slops yearly like Ubi, or you have to wait 10+ years to let RockStar craft a masterpiece.
BuddyLaDouche
Neo Member
I believe the context of the "4-hour" comment was that the map is so big and there's so much to do/discover/explore along the way... that it's easy to get sidetracked spend 4-hours getting from A-B. I thought it was said as a positive, rather than the negative it's being taken as here.
BosmerCulter
Member
Oh ? NeoGaf is finally started criticizing Mahler and see who he really is ? I couldn't stand seeing everyone here sucking up to him just because he's on this forum. The guy's an douch. I lost whatever respect I had for him when the user rating for No Rest on Steam slowly dropped to "mixed " (due to the lack of update and support), and then he blamed the game's fans on Discord for that and pushed them to flood the game with positive reviews, saying that the studio wouldn't survive and might shut down if the reviews kept being bad. Then, a few days later, he proudly posted on X that No Rest of the Wicked's user rating was positive and that this proved just how great the developers were.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
UbiSlop, dang. Wait until they get ahold of DLSS5.Yeah I think what he meant is that even crazy geniuses like From and Nintendo couldn't fill every inch of the open worlds with interactivity and quality level design.
He thinks RockStar is the only one pulled this off with big scale open world.
But yeah, you either pump out copy paste slops yearly like Ubi, or you have to wait 10+ years to let RockStar craft a masterpiece.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
I am actually!I guess thats just his way to say that he is fckn exited to play this game in two days.
100% I willI guess thats just his way to say that he is fckn exited to play this game in two days.
I would be, yes. I think about level design in a fairly technical way and I since I've done this stuff for almost two decades now, I could show you exactly what an authored stretch vs. an unauthored stretch looks like.
If it takes 4 hours to go from one point to the other, even given that Pearl Abyss probably has hundreds of devs on this game, just mathematically you'll 100% have a crap ton of unauthored stretches of world design in here.
Maybe that'll work, maybe it won't. Given how many open world games have empty, barren and uninteresting open worlds and given that Black Desert Online isn't necessarily the most amazing game ever made, I'd argue that we should stay realistic. Why constantly get over-hyped and then disappointed? Just don't have insane expectations every single goddamn time.
And no, I don't think I'm making tiny games. But I know how long approx. it takes to design a level of a certain size. Again, do the math.
I have played a million other open world games and every developer so far has run into the same exact issues.
That was exactly my point.
Okay, Clarence.
I'm pretty creative! And read above, I think my points are pretty reasonable.
Correct. And to people who then go: "Oh, but there's Fast Travel!" -> That doesn't and has never excused stretches of gameplay that last a good 10-20 minutes that are just pretty empty.
Have none of you actually tried to design levels with Mario Maker? If so, you must've seen by yourself what it takes to design a good level. A ton of open world games literally have stretches in there where you're literally just holding the analog stick forward for minutes on end without doing much at all. Is that fun? No, it's not.
It wasn't a definitive statement. I haven't played the game. Maybe they did pull it off - I hope they did, I hope someone finally solved this issue. But given where LD tech is, what they made before and given how big they were aiming, it's more than reasonable to assume that they haven't, just like so many other developers before haven't.
Every developer I met who had to make open world games tells me the same thing, that the shittiest part was trying to scramble to fill up empty stretches with content until the last minute cause it's not fun to play through empty stuff. Every single one. Even those that worked on Open World games for over a decade. But apparently here we want to assume that even though 90% of developers fail at this task, Pearl Abyss must have pulled it off. I mean, if you want to be hyped, be hyped, I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun. I'll remain cautiously excited.
Zacfoldor
Gold Member
Interesting. Dragons Dogma was elite after dark arisen but had questionable level design pre BBI. Can some games not still be good with poor level design? Khazan for example?
I'm interested in the game but not a sure purchase yet. I'm okay if it gets shallow after I put a good 60 in it. Botw I agree eventually got shallow but it took a while.
I'm interested in the game but not a sure purchase yet. I'm okay if it gets shallow after I put a good 60 in it. Botw I agree eventually got shallow but it took a while.
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near
Gold Member
"Given the size of the world, of course that's what you're going to get. Without throwing shade at Pearl Abyss, if even the geniuses at Nintendo and From Software struggle to fill up this massive amount of space with interactivity, it's likely that they didn't solve this issue either."
I don't think Elden Ring has this problem at all.
"I already know that there's likely not going to be a lot of actual good level design in Crimson Desert."
Premature dismissal from another dev comes across as very snobby.
I don't think Elden Ring has this problem at all.
"I already know that there's likely not going to be a lot of actual good level design in Crimson Desert."
Premature dismissal from another dev comes across as very snobby.
Kronark
Member
Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom had fuck all in their maps and people LOVED those games. The prospect of exploring the world at the start of the game is exciting, yes. But once you're about 25% of the way through you realize there's actually fuck all. Unless you really loved Shrines or nutted everytime you saw a Korok I can't understand how anyone found exploring those worlds fun.
So if that's the industry benchmark, I'm convinced from what I've seen that Crimson Desert will surpass it.
So if that's the industry benchmark, I'm convinced from what I've seen that Crimson Desert will surpass it.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
Honestly? I don't think so. There's a reason why so many level designers at some point become game directors, etc. - Level Design is so extremely underrated. The people who decide what you're actually doing moment to moment are the ones that are in charge of how much fun the game is. So if your game is full of bad level design, I'd argue that the game itself can't be all that fun.
This is always the problem with open world games. Players are usually free to go wherever they want, so you might just get unlucky and run into a super boring stretch right from the get-go.
I remember getting so much shit here on GAF for saying the same exact thing when No Man's Sky first released, that even though it's a cool gimmick to throw out 'We made 17 quintillion planets!', it's not all that fun to run around empty, procedurally generated stuff. And it really wasn't. We see this same shitty movie play out in the same exact way again and again and again and every single time another developer pulls the 'Our world is 526.000 square kilometers big!' bullshit move, gamers fall for it again and again.
I can open Unity right now and create the biggest open world terrain the world has ever seen. Wanna play it?
Heimdall_Xtreme
Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
Can I kill people?
cripterion
Member
They had a desert in the MMO too, with large sections with nothing in it. It was a pleasure to traverse on my camel. I mean sometimes, I love getting lost and immersed in games, I don't need an NPC, or something happening every minute. That was actually a problem with Dragon's Dogma 2, everywhere you go, trash mobs to fight.
HRK69
Member
Hell yeah and in plenty of flashy ways too
As for the combat, I don't think you need to worry about it
nemiroff
Gold Member
Sounds suspiciously familiar.. hmm, there's this place, what was the name, dammit, it's on the tip of my tongue...
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
That's not really how people's brains work though. You're arguing that having some empty stretches is a good thing and that is absolutely true. It has to be a rollercoaster, so the experience isn't always at 11, of course.
But usually 'fun' happens when your brain gets stimulated in interesting ways. Is there some interesting landmark in the distance? Is there a challenge to how to get from A to B? Do I have to use some of my abilities? Does it require any skill? Are there objects I can interact with? Is there some story stuff happening in-between? etc. etc.
It's the same in every artform. Your brain wants to get stimulated. And of course you sometimes need pacing-break sections that are less intense. Moments where you get to breathe out, etc. But... when you see a movie and there's a nonsensical stretch in there where your characters don't advance the plot in an any meaningful way, usually people subconsciously pick up on that right away and it makes the movie feel super long. Cause you get bored. So for movies it's the same thing, every scene should be there for a reason and give you some insight that is deeply connected to the other components that make up your film. Games are no different. Except that players LOVE the allure of 'this developer created an entire universe!' - Problem is, you also need to fill up that universe with meaningful content. And them's the breaks.
Amish Prince
Member
At least in Pearl Abyss's case they've been working on the game for 7-8 years, enough time to truly flesh out a large world, and are actually releasing it. I'm aware I'm seeing this all through hype-tinted glasses currently, but this game was certainly not built under normal AAA circumstances, unlike that aforementioned 90% you bring up.
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Agent_4Seven
Tears of Nintendo
Honestly? Could not care less about this game at all. Giant open world with immense amount of repetitive chores, busywork and neverending combat is the absolutely last thing I need from games right now, which is why I haven't played F2P Where Winds Meet after a couple of hours since launch no matter how good it looks and how good combat is, but for Crimson Desert you also need to pay $70 upfront - FUCK NO, not even for free.
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cripterion
Member
Well what do you think about RDR 2 for example? You can roam around and nothing to interact with (save for the fauna) and that in itself is enjoyable provided the world is well crafted. I know some people dislike that, but I find it super immersive. I sure hope Crimson Desert has a couple of secrets for us to find off the beaten path.
I think great open world games are the ones in which you play and absolutely do not want to use fast travel.
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Solidus Ben
Neo Member
Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are as deserving of praise as those games you mentioned. RDR2 had the GOAT open world in my opinion.
ryantetric
Member
I mean you gotta be realistic with what comes with the expectations of a massive open world. RDR2 stillll ahead of its time and the parts I see that are compared to that prolly aren't gonna be as cool. I'm expecting some jank and bugs on release but I'm stoked to check out the world they've shown.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
I think Rockstar has tons of experience with how to make Open World stuff work and I don't think it's true that RDR2 has nothing to interact with. And... they also have 1000+ devs working on their games and if you talk to folks from Rockstar, they'll happily confirm that filling up those open worlds is a massive load of incredible labor.
Heimdall_Xtreme
Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
I want to take over villages and leave them as ghost towns.
- I want to kill every challenger and let them know of my immortality.
- I want to steal loot.
- I want to use magic to burn down everything the village left behind.
- I want to ride a horse and trample the crowd.
- I want the NPCs to provoke them and make them fight amongst themselves.