5 seconds to before every minute ticks (1:00, 2:00, 3:00, etc.) a camp will respawn if there's no creeps in that spot. What you have to do is run up/attack/whatever the creeps to get them to follow you and you have to run far enough away to get them out of their spawning place. This will cause the game to think there's no creeps there and will spawn a new set along with the old ones still there.
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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
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5 seconds to before every minute ticks (1:00, 2:00, 3:00, etc.) a camp will respawn if there's no creeps in that spot. What you have to do is run up/attack/whatever the creeps to get them to follow you and you have to run far enough away to get them out of their spawning place. This will cause the game to think there's no creeps there and will spawn a new set along with the old ones still there.
That would not surprise me. Not sure how I feel about the new ideas they're throwing into it, like the Zealot Golem thing.
The_Player
Member
Their work is obsolete to me. Market already owned by LoL and HoN, and there's also Dota 2 coming next year, as well as couple of others MOBA titles. Blizz's Dota might be interesting only to Blizz's fans, those who play SC2, and... don't know, those who bored by fantasy setting.
You're not pressing hard enough. What is your APM???
LoftyTheMetroid
Member
I think it's foolish to be so dismissive. (Not to mention a little fanboyish...)
I don't think it's going to dethrone Dota 2 (that's actually one of my big problems with the game, Blizzard should treat it as a full retail release and not a mod on the side), but I would not be surprised if it introduces some really cool ideas that Valve will later adopt into Dota 2.
And once Valve does it, you'll think it's the greatest thing ever. XP j/k
To be fair, I sort of see where he is coming from. It's doing a lot of League of Legends-ish changes it looks like so far. Tall grass, no evidence of trees at all. A golem that follows you giving you a free push after you defeat it? A hero that has an autoattack that outranges towers?
Granted, we haven't gotten a chance to play it yet, but it does seem to be going in a League of Legends-ish direction, which is not something I would like to see.
HOLD THE FUCKING PHONE. Are you serious? Also, how exactly would they remove last hitting? Or are they just they removing the gold bonus for getting the last hit rather?
droppedbear
Member
Is there a link to that TR vs mTw match? Can't find a replay
Still not up yet, think a whole lot of games got recorded yesterday and they'll all appear at once on joindota.
Wow, I looked up more information about Blizzard Dota. A few things that really stuck out to me:
-Towers have a mana supply now that recharges slowly over time. Tower can run out of mana. Just think about that.
-There is at least one hero that can outrange towers with his autoattack (a siege tank in siege mode pretty much)
-Towers have a mana supply now that recharges slowly over time. Tower can run out of mana. Just think about that.
-There is at least one hero that can outrange towers with his autoattack (a siege tank in siege mode pretty much)
Sniper can outrange turrets with his level 3 and 4 passive ability. I will still give Blizz DOTA a fair shot.
I'm surprised they haven't done this for LoL yet, considering they just keep dumbing it down even further than it is now.
Let me be a little clearer. I certainly don't want change for change's sake - not at all. It is very important to me, and the community as a whole, that the game remain 'DOTA.' I just really hope that they find a balance between fresh, new and innovative with that which what makes this game DOTA.
And, yes, that is something that is a work-in-progress model.
I think SCII is a fair comparison to what I am talking about. The first thing that pops into my head was the ability to group up ALL units instead of just the limited amount you could in SC1. I remember a lot of people (some of this board) claiming how un-SC that was for it to happen. But, in reality, the reason it existed was a limitation in the game system, the game design. Of course it would make sense to be able to group all units especially now that the game design allowed for something like that to exist.
But I also think Haly is right in pointing out that LoL's model of progression is most likely where we are headed with DOTA2. Although, I would argue, that it does in many ways mimic the game model that DOTA had in place years before... I think LoL is a bit more apparently in their recent commercial rise to success. But LoL does a wonderful job in adding hero features and game mechanics that, although at times may feel broken because heroes come out under powered or over powered, actually are well thought out if not 100% fleshed out.
I prefer the DOTA scene. I prefer the DOTA feel. And I prefer the DOTA list of champions. I want this game to remain DOTA-like... but, as Lofty mentioned, this cannot be DOTA-HD. It can't. But, on the other hand, I never really felt like it would be. I just hope they aren't married to too many DOTA-like aspects that they aren't at least somewhat willing to focus on changing for the better.
But that shitty UI and Shop system needs to go NOW. Haha.
Really don't get the complaints with the shop, you can edit all the recommended items so you never need to find anything. I find it better than LoL or (either of) HoNs. Dota2 is most certainly going to be Dota HD for the foreseeable future, something they've been very open with since the start.
What mechanics from Dota 1 do you think should be changed for Dota 2? Off the top of my head: uphill miss chance is bullshit and I don't know if that was a War3 engine limitation or an intentional design decision.
Uphill miss.
Line of sight issues due to hills.
I've never been a fan of the day/night system. This won't go away, I know, just my personal preference.
Tower behavior.
Pathing.
General unit control.
Issues with heroes such as Invoker -- I think he's an awesome hero but I think the implementation of his QQQ etc. system was due to the limitations of the system he was built in.
More dynamic skill control -- I think click key to activate skill and click hero to hit him is a dated mechanic. I think providing a choice much akin to the smart casting option in LoL is a better one overall. Mousing over and clicking a skill is preferable to me and was something just not available in the game design when DOTA was first introduced. I'm no LoL devout here, either. I legitimately feel it's a better overall system that should be adopted in some capacity. I don't think they will introduce this with any of the traditional heroes... but I do think they should explore it for the first couple of new DOTA2 heroes when we eventually see them.
Look... I've spent an evening with the game... these are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm no guru and I admit I need to spend more time with DOTA2 and I'm excited to.
How can a miss chance from low ground be an engine limitation. Why is it bullshit?
Should be removed anyway all it does is force competition between your own team members, which seems counter productive for a team game. To balance it they could increase the cost of items.
So many missed kills due lose of sight 1/2 an inch in front me, I hate it as well but its not going anywhere. But I agree with alot of your list.
Just got my beta key last night, will be playing this all during the break!!!!
I have not kept up with this thread, should I read through it or any highlights I need to take note of before just jumping in
?
edit: will just go through the resources in the OP, should bring me back up to speed.
I have not kept up with this thread, should I read through it or any highlights I need to take note of before just jumping in
?edit: will just go through the resources in the OP, should bring me back up to speed.
Uphill miss: Agreed
LoS due to hills: agree/disagree. Warding the higher ground adds a decision making aspect.
Day/Night: Have to disagree. I love the concept of day and night. I wish there were more heroes and features that took advantage of the system.
Tower behavior: Is obtuse and wonky, agreed.
Pathing: In my 227 hours playing, I can think of one situation where I was dicked over by poor pathing. It is leaps and bounds better than HoN.
General unit control: If you mean control groups with Chen/Enchantress then 100% agreed. It is absolute garbage right now.
Invoker isn't in the game yet (at least not until tomorrow) but how would you propose he play?
Smart casting should be an option, but I disagree with calling the click and cast system "dated"
I disagree with this. In pubs your idiot Witch Doctor might be stealing creep kills, but in coordinated games, your partner should be harassing the enemy, denying, stacking creep camps and so forth while the carry focuses on last hitting.
LoS due to hills: agree/disagree. Warding the higher ground adds a decision making aspect.
Day/Night: Have to disagree. I love the concept of day and night. I wish there were more heroes and features that took advantage of the system.
Tower behavior: Is obtuse and wonky, agreed.
Pathing: In my 227 hours playing, I can think of one situation where I was dicked over by poor pathing. It is leaps and bounds better than HoN.
General unit control: If you mean control groups with Chen/Enchantress then 100% agreed. It is absolute garbage right now.
Invoker isn't in the game yet (at least not until tomorrow) but how would you propose he play?
Smart casting should be an option, but I disagree with calling the click and cast system "dated"
I disagree with this. In pubs your idiot Witch Doctor might be stealing creep kills, but in coordinated games, your partner should be harassing the enemy, denying, stacking creep camps and so forth while the carry focuses on last hitting.
Don't see how Smart Casting is that much of an improvement to call the 'old' way dated, unless I'm missing something you're saving yourself a click?
Not it doesn't, you should only have one person last hitting in each lane, just because people are terrible at the game doesn't mean it needs to be changed.
Not it doesn't, you should only have one person last hitting in each lane, just because people are terrible at the game doesn't mean it needs to be changed.
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Just to touch on the Blizzard Dota last hitting thingy. I don't really care about Blizzard dota, I will play it and have fun with it but I don't think they are even trying to compete with LoL, HoN or Dota 2 so doesn't matter. They are not LTTP because they are not interested in joining the party.
That said if they would remove last hitting from DOTA 2 like someone suggested I would quit this game pretty quickly.
Just got my beta key last night, will be playing this all during the break!!!!
I have not kept up with this thread, should I read through it or any highlights I need to take note of before just jumping in
edit: will just go through the resources in the OP, should bring me back up to speed.
I suggest playing few games with AI and then come to NeoGAF channel and play with gaffers. I do not recommend going solo pub if you aren't experienced or well not even then really >_> It's horrible out there.
I think I could buy in a whole lot more if heroes and features were to take advantage of it. Totally with you here. I can be turned.
Archie said:
Don't know. Honestly. He's a hero that was built specifically around the system. I think my issue here is a lot like what issue I have with Night Stalker. Yes, Night Stalker takes advantage of the Night system. And, yes, Invoker is a hero that works with inputting commands........ but these are the only two that do those things for those systems? For me I can say that it would be easier to swallow if there was more of it.
Archie said:
That's fair. I think what I meant to say was using the click and cast system ONLY is dated. There are simply more options (and you can argue they are better suited for certain skills) available now.
There is always the reduced vision thing. You have to be more careful at night so you won't get ganked.
I understand that but when 90% of time your playing a pub game and people don't understand who should do what it brings the game whole experience down. As a developer you need to make a decision on if you want to adjust this or not. Here is how I look at it, what does last hitting bring do the game that is special and useful? I just don't see any of the positives in terms of gameplay but I do see negatives. Now if i'm missing the positives I would be glad to hear them, because I'm certainly no DOTA expert. Now denying on the other hand is a mechanic I can get behind, it makes alot of sense.
Your partner should be doing those things without last hitting being in the game, so yea.
carbonbased
Member
D-O-T-A
DOOOOOooooOOTA
D-O-T-A
DOOOOOooooOOTA
SAYIN D-O-T-AAAAAAAAAAA
yeah boyyyy. wanted in this beta more than any other game this winter. my first match was great fun, although you can only carry so hard on tide.
carbonbased
Member
this...this is something. not sure if you are playing the same game as us but "a click" is often the difference between winning and losing a fight.
it flat out increases your harassment range with any click-to-cast spell, improves your odds of firing off a spell before cc stops you, and is utterly gamechanging when it comes to blinks and other movement abilities. i completely switched over to smartcast in League of Legends almost a year in and it has profoundly helped my play since. for reference i have 4+ years of dota 1 experience and a couple thousand League games in my pocket.
i know it's cool to be some kind of dota purist, but one has to admit that there are interface changes that could be made for the better.
True, there is absolutely no positives.
The way it is now is ridiculous, why shouldn't I as a hard carry be able to farm solo and get gold against a tri-lane?
And why shouldn't a newcomer be able to farm at the same speed as Zhou on the lane?
regarding so-called smart casting, I don't think that dota should cater to ex-league players here. There is no reason in my mind that it make more sense to remove the click. There are a lot of times when I press a spell then wait multiple seconds before clicking and using it, and I would prefer it to stay that way. Face facts: Spells in dota are not used as much to harass as they might be in league. I'll direct you to the Leoric The Skeleton King guide again: "DO NOT 'HARASS' WITH HELLFIRE BLAST. REAL MEN DO NOT HARASS." Mana is much more precious a resource, cooldowns are longer, and the spells are more valuable in general. If not having this smartcasting convinces more league players to stop wasting spells in lane, that's a sacrifice worth making.
PillowKnight
Member
You guys are crazy, removing last hitting from dota is like removing jumping from mario. Last hitting is one of the core mechanics that makes the game fun.
Having the option to turn on Smart Casting doesn't force you to use it. It's even turned off by default in LoL. This is just a "get off my lawn" mentality and ignoring a brilliant mechanic just because it wasn't in your game first.
carbonbased
Member
it would be an option. just like in League. no one is going to force you to use the superior control method.
and that last tidbit you typed up is hysterical. so because some people are bad at the game i should be forced to suffer with outdated controls? you are what is wrong with the action rts/moba community.
Seems like it's letting the spell auto activate using your current mouse position instead of activating then clicking for effect to kick in.
IE. point at enemy, hit Q to cast.
It IS easier, technically. Whether or not it's better for the game is pretty debatable.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I think it will surprise people. They are trying some really different things with it. There was an article posted a couple months ago with some neat info.
What the hell has that got to do with mana management.
So basically you don't click on a hero but hover over them with the mouse then cast a spell. Don't really see it being a big deal, adding this mechanic.
It being easier? I don't know. It just seems a different method.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Is there a link to that TR vs mTw match? Can't find a replay
http://www.joindota.com/en/vods
Its in 2 parts for some reason.
I don't think its a fun mechanic, well actually I do, I'm messed up since I do like to farm in games. But both are 100% needed. Anyone worth their own shit knows this.
Just looking at character positions required to last hit. Melee characters have to be in the minion pack. Most have quicker attack speeds than range and no projection flight time. Meaning they can last hit and deny quicker. It also effect range now, since they can choose to harass them or still focus on denying/last hitting. The biggest thing about it is that encourages engagement. You have to actually fight for the gold.
If you just made it the bullshit everyone in the area gets free gold. They believe it will encourage more play, but really it just encourages more passive play. As long as you are within reasonable range, even if they are better. You still both advance at the same exact rate. It waters down the skill level and forces players to be more passive. The risk of denying them isn't worth it unless its a completely lopsided match.
Casting Radius.
You know how far your shot will go.
I think uphill miss should be kept as well, but getting rid of it wouldn't be a game changer. Uphill vision impairment should ABSOLUTELY not be touched; the whole reason its there is to add an extra dimension to tactical planning and positional nuances, removing it would just make a big part of the game brain dead.
Smart casting I'm on the fence with. Using it opens the door to changing the casting dynamic to be similar to regular attacks. I'm not particularly for it; there are supposed to be mechanical nuances between casting vs. attacking.
it's entirely sensible for people to get gold while being in the vicinity even when they don't last hit a hero or a tower. It's unlikely that someone will just want to stick around a big fight and not do anything; not contributing to the fight will just get your teammates killed faster and your ass killed in the end. This is a non-issue since Dota 2 already does this to a limited degree; people who don't last hit heroes and towers already get assist gold.
Removing last hitting for creeps on the other hand, is fucking dumb; that's the MOBA equivalent of "everyone gets a gold star" right there. The farming/last hitting aspect has a real impact on the flow of hero development throughout the game and like you said, greatly affects fight positioning and tactics.
Outdated? what exactly is outdated about this? It's not like I'm riding a horse while you're in your electric buggy here.
Real talk going here: I've played a lot of hon. One hero, The Chipper, has rockets that you fire by pressing it's key then clicking a direction. in the beta test client, there was a time when you would press the button and it would instantly fire to your mouse's position. Response was overwhelmingly negative, because it changed the feedback of how to hero felt and played. Another hero, Amun-Ra, was released with a certain skill instantly that casted a comet in the direction he was facing. It was changed in the next patch so that you would have to press the skill and click the direction you wanted the comet to go.
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