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[MrKnives]

nah, it's cool to call people shit players as long as they already understand they are shit players and you don't rub it in. For instance, I kept calling Trasher a shit juggernaut because he was sucking a huge dick and couldn't carry a carton of milk without assistance, but then the next game we learned not to have 4 carries and we won big time.

I guess what i'm saying is call people out when they play like garbage, but give them room to not play like garbage in future.

You can call a friend or a person you play a lot shit if you know he will take it with sense of humor but if you are playing your first game with someone you will just start a shitstorm which won't lead to anything.

The worst thing you could do is let somebody playing poorly think they personally are doing well. It'll reinforce bad habits, and make it more difficult to teach them in future.

What the fuck happened with being polite. You can do all the things you said politely

So its not the 200g/min Drow's fault that I lost but because the other team was just too good. I see. I'll keep that in mind next time.

What are you talking about? Stats-wise we didn't lose because of raphier, he had the most kills and least deaths from all of us. If anything we had a 0/11 Viper which isn't all that great for Viper in laning phase. I'm not defending Lich's decision on his build or bm'ng Viper, we all did poorly but just had to comment your randomly placed comment.

Also just to note we lost in 32min and our carry DK had 142gold/min. This just to point out that maybe, just maybe your 200g/min Drow wasn't the reason you lost and it was because the whole team played like crap.

 

[Kapura]

Ultimate Orb + Mystic Staff + Void Stone -> Sheepstick
Ultimate Orb + Perseverance + Pattern -> Linkins
Ultimate Orb + Yasha + Pattern -> Manta
Ultimate Orb + Ultimate Orb + Point Booster + Orb of Venom -> Eye of Skadi

Best single target disable item in the game, one of the best defensive items in the game, one of the best non-orb combative items in the game, and the best orb in the game. Drum is like 1200 gold beyond the bracer, which is 6 stacks of wards or a bit more than half of a mech. Face it: When you get into a teamfight, those extra stats are not going to save a lot of support heroes, the speed isn't going to be as big as popping a pipe or a mek, and gold you spend recharging it would be better used elsewhere.

and luke you have gosu ward-buying skills.

 

[Boken]

I'm not talking about that game specifically, I'm talking about the mantra: "(if we lose it's not my fault. the other team was just better)"

Also just to note we lost in 32min and our carry DK had 142gold/min. This just to point out that maybe, just maybe your 200g/min Drow wasn't the reason you lost and it was because the whole team played like crap.

How does your anecdote show that it may have been the whole team playing like crap? Seems like the DK let you down.

 

[MrKnives]

Ultimate Orb + Mystic Staff + Void Stone -> Sheepstick
Ultimate Orb + Perseverance + Pattern -> Linkins
Ultimate Orb + Yasha + Pattern -> Manta
Ultimate Orb + Ultimate Orb + Point Booster + Orb of Venom -> Eye of Skadi

Best single target disable item in the game, one of the best defensive items in the game, one of the best non-orb combative items in the game, and the best orb in the game. Drum is like 1200 gold beyond the bracer, which is 6 stacks of wards or a bit more than half of a mech. Face it: When you get into a teamfight, those extra stats are not going to save a lot of support heroes, the speed isn't going to be as big as popping a pipe or a mek, and gold you spend recharging it would be better used elsewhere.

and luke you have gosu ward-buying skills.

It's still a great item to some heroes that aren't aiming for items like manta, skadi, sheepstick or linkens. A lot of supportish heroes can benefit from having one or two braces and upgrading that to drum

I'm not talking about that game specifically, I'm talking about the mantra: "(if we lose it's not my fault. the other team was just better)"


How does your anecdote show that it may have been the whole team playing like crap? Seems like the DK let you down.

A carry can't really farm if the team can't protect him and is dying all the time. The end score was something like 7-34.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

If they waited till they started losing before giving advice, then I can see where you are coming from.

The people I've played with who gave me advice did it all game from start to finish. It should not be done when you start losing because at that point it really just looks like they are looking for someone to blame for the loss.

Which can happen when people get "salty" for losing.

 

[Kapura]

You can call a friend or a person you play a lot shit if you know he will take it with sense of humor but if you are playing your first game with someone you will just start a shitstorm which won't lead to anything.

What the fuck happened with being polite. You can do all the things you said politely

Choose your allies wisely, I guess. The people I played HoN with would give each other huge stinking 20-hectares-of-fertilizer piles of shit for playing bad, and we usually won. You've got choices to make yo.

What are you talking about? Stats-wise we didn't lose because of raphier, he had the most kills and least deaths from all of us. If anything we had a 0/11 Viper which isn't all that great for Viper in laning phase. I'm not defending Lich's decision on his build or bm'ng Viper, we all did poorly but just had to comment your randomly placed comment.

Also just to note we lost in 32min and our carry DK had 142gold/min. This just to point out that maybe, just maybe your 200g/min Drow wasn't the reason you lost and it was because the whole team played like crap.

If a carry gets good farm, they can pull their team out of the jaws of defeat. You count on your carry to farm and win the game for you when other heroes start to suck. A 200gpm carry will never be able to do that, and they have failed to do their job.

 

[MrKnives]

Choose your allies wisely, I guess. The people I played HoN with would give each other huge stinking 20-hectares-of-fertilizer piles of shit for playing bad, and we usually won. You've got choices to make yo.

Can't really be too picky when it's either random gaffers or random pubbers

If a carry gets good farm, they can pull their team out of the jaws of defeat. You count on your carry to farm and win the game for you when other heroes start to suck. A 200gpm carry will never be able to do that, and they have failed to do their job.

Since when all the burden is on the carry? Carry will win you the game in the end if you let him farm well enough. If your play the game of your life not letting anyone even come close to your carry and he still farms 200g/min yea it's his fault.

 

[Kapura]

It's still a great item to some heroes that aren't aiming for items like manta, skadi, sheepstick or linkens. A lot of supportish heroes can benefit from having one or two braces and upgrading that to drum

At least one or two support heroes should be building sheepsticks. They might not get them until the 40 or 50 minute mark, but it's too good of an item to not try to get one in any semi-tryharding game. And I'm not denying that the additional stats would be marginally useful, but I am saying there are better things to build for stats (ultimate orb) but more importantly better things to buy for the team (wards, sheep, mek, pipe). Therefore, drum of endurance is an item which you would be well-served in most situations to avoid.

Since when all the burden is on the carry?

Since always. They are called the carry for a reason.

 

[Balehead]

Holy shit, just played my first inhouse. Huge difference compared to what the matchmaking has to offer, absolutely fantastic to play with some coordination. No one even had a mic. Went the usual support (as CM) with courier and wards from the second set onwards and did my best. Good times, shame I don't have the time to play more tonight.

 

[MrKnives]

Since always. They are called the carry for a reason.

Yes, they are supposed carry you to victory after that 40min well farmed game. But that won't happen if the rest of your team is bad and doesn't provide you the carry a good farming enviroment.
Good luck farming against a good team when your teammates won't help you.

 

[raphier]

Since always. They are called the carry for a reason.

PPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTT since all burden is on a Carry:

Do you want to tell there should be 5 carries in a team?

Say a game of 1 good carry against 5?

Do you know why these two will fail?


Most carries are very fragile early game. And hard to handle. A great opportunity to gank/disable him. If you let the other team constantly harass him, it's whole teams fault. It takes a team effort to keep him alive early. Team effort. Carry needs help like any other superhero. And don't forget the carry on the other team.

 

[Trasher]

nah, it's cool to call people shit players as long as they already understand they are shit players and you don't rub it in. For instance, I kept calling Trasher a shit juggernaut because he was sucking a huge dick and couldn't carry a carton of milk without assistance, but then the next game we learned not to have 4 carries and we won big time.

I guess what i'm saying is call people out when they play like garbage, but give them room to not play like garbage in future.

The worst thing you could do is let somebody playing poorly think they personally are doing well. It'll reinforce bad habits, and make it more difficult to teach them in future.

 

[Haly]

So much salt goddamn.

 

[Archie]

So much salt goddamn.

I agree.

 

[HK-47]

Ultimate Orb + Mystic Staff + Void Stone -> Sheepstick
Ultimate Orb + Perseverance + Pattern -> Linkins
Ultimate Orb + Yasha + Pattern -> Manta
Ultimate Orb + Ultimate Orb + Point Booster + Orb of Venom -> Eye of Skadi

Best single target disable item in the game, one of the best defensive items in the game, one of the best non-orb combative items in the game, and the best orb in the game. Drum is like 1200 gold beyond the bracer, which is 6 stacks of wards or a bit more than half of a mech. Face it: When you get into a teamfight, those extra stats are not going to save a lot of support heroes, the speed isn't going to be as big as popping a pipe or a mek, and gold you spend recharging it would be better used elsewhere.

and luke you have gosu ward-buying skills.

lol saving a support and forcing them to spend more time killing a support are two great things. Nothing gives you so much for so little money. Its tremendously cost efficient. Only stupid people act like ward buying isnt a priority, which wasnt even part of the argument. Orb by itself is worth so much less and it costs so much more gold to turn it into to something useful, unlike bracer to drum.

 

[HK-47]

PPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTT since all burden is on a Carry:

Do you want to tell there should be 5 carries in a team?

Say a game of 1 good carry against 5?

Do you know why these two will fail?


Most carries are very fragile early game. And hard to handle. A great opportunity to gank/disable him. If you let the other team constantly harass him, it's whole teams fault. It takes a team effort to keep him alive early. Team effort. Carry needs help like any other superhero. And don't forget the carry on the other team.

Guys Dota is like a team game so dont suck, but seriously its all about the carry. I'm so good at this game, listen to me.

/kapura strawman

Nvm thats giving others shit isnt the same as constructive criticism to help them play better. Only an asshole thinks these are one and the same.

 

[Stahsky]

laying down the biz, HK

 

[clip]

Does anyone want to play now?

 

[Holden]

Does anyone want to play now?

i ve been waiting for 30 min in the gaf channel!

 

[Barack Lesnar]

How do you get kills with a guy like Skeleton King? Played a game yesterday with him and did well for CS (got 90ish which is incredible for me) and had some good items but I ended up like 1-5-5. Anytime I tried to attack they just ran away, even after using his Q stun. The 2-3 secs you get from the stun isn't enough to kill them. Dota's heroes move a lot faster than LoL so it's easier to run away.

The only Frozen Mallet-type item is Sasha and Gange which is an expensive late game item (or I guess you could just get the one for 2150) and it doesn't even guarantee a slow on hit, it's like Triforce.

I used Skeleton King for this question but it applies to other similar physical melee champs.

 

[Ikuu]

Sounds like you had terrible farm and no items, so did no damage. Your stun also slows them for a few seconds. Also SnY is pretty bad and rarely gets built, Skadi is the proper slow item.

Also actual confirmation of the 6.73 changes coming soon, http://www.playdota.com/forums/604422/6-73-changes-implemented-dota-2-a/#post3767498

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Sounds like you had terrible farm and no items, so did no damage. Your stun also slows them for a few seconds.

Also actual confirmation of the 6.73 changes coming soon, http://www.playdota.com/forums/604422/6-73-changes-implemented-dota-2-a/#post3767498

Well it was in the beginner's bracket so we all had around that CS (like 80-100).

 

[Archie]

How do you get kills with a guy like Skeleton King? Played a game yesterday with him and did well for CS (got 90ish which is incredible for me) and had some good items but I ended up like 1-5-5. Anytime I tried to attack they just ran away, even after using his Q stun. The 2-3 secs you get from the stun isn't enough to kill them. Dota's heroes move a lot faster than LoL so it's easier to run away.

The only Frozen Mallet-type item is Sasha and Gange which is an expensive late game item (or I guess you could just get the one for 2150) and it doesn't even guarantee a slow on hit, it's like Triforce.

I used Skeleton King for this question but it applies to other similar physical melee champs.

ASK YOURSELF THIS FIRST:
AM I PLAYING LEORIC?

YES: GET AN ARMLET
NO: GET AN ARMLET

 

[Sibylus]

Killing Roshan at lvl 1 is a bit cheesy tactic, and we lost to it.

What's the backstory to this? Was your mid checking for runes at all? (one sweep down to bot rune and a check on Rosh should have given away everything, not to mention an early ward on bot rune would have revealed them filing into there)

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Is Ursa required for level 1 Roshan kill or can you do it with other heroes?

 

[raphier]

Guys Dota is like a team game so dont suck, but seriously its all about the carry. I'm so good at this game, listen to me.

/kapura strawman

Nvm thats giving others shit isnt the same as constructive criticism to help them play better. Only an asshole thinks these are one and the same.

pft, bitch all you want. I will gladly take it.

I may be just terrible support I guess. I can deal with typical Dota Blame-The-Noob. I can deal with being shit player. The shitstorm negativity it created today against me is just ridiculous, though.


EDIT:

(i think he was on your side )

I think so too, but I am talking about others in general. I still had to vent a little to this pointless discussion.

 

[Togglesworlh]

pft, bitch all you want.

(i think he was on your side )

 

[Sibylus]

Is Ursa required for level 1 Roshan kill or can you do it with other heroes?

I know nothing about Ursa save that one embarrassing IH performance, but Ursa shouldn't really solo him at level one. The multi-swipe and passive damage aren't really much use at that stage and you have no lifesteal. Sounds to me like you'd have 2-3 people teaming him for a while, perhaps spending a small fortune on consumables. If there are there that many people missing and you can't be bothered to investigate, and you have no wards, and no rune checks, you're playing to lose to begin with (cheesy Rosh attempt or not).

Not only that, the carrier of the Aegis couldn't be softer at that point in the game. It's ridiculous to regard level 1 Roshan as a game over.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I know nothing about Ursa save that one embarrassing IH performance, but Ursa shouldn't really solo him at level one. The multi-swipe and passive damage aren't really much use at that stage and you have no lifesteal. Sounds to me like you'd have 2-3 people teaming him for a while, perhaps spending a small fortune on consumables. If there are there that many people missing and you can't be bothered to investigate, and you have no wards, and no rune checks, you're playing to lose to begin with (cheesy Rosh attempt or not).

Hmm, I saw a video the other day with a Ursa and Skeleton King double teaming Roshan at level 1.

Pretty sure they had a lot of consumables with them as well, I don't have the link though unfortunately. I guess it won't work that well on organized teams because they would see you doing it right away.

 

[punkypine]

How do you get kills with a guy like Skeleton King? Played a game yesterday with him and did well for CS (got 90ish which is incredible for me) and had some good items but I ended up like 1-5-5. Anytime I tried to attack they just ran away, even after using his Q stun. The 2-3 secs you get from the stun isn't enough to kill them. Dota's heroes move a lot faster than LoL so it's easier to run away.

The only Frozen Mallet-type item is Sasha and Gange which is an expensive late game item (or I guess you could just get the one for 2150) and it doesn't even guarantee a slow on hit, it's like Triforce.

I used Skeleton King for this question but it applies to other similar physical melee champs.

Your cs wasn't that high but the main thing is if they are running away so easily have teammates with you. Dont fight 1 v 1 and other people will disable

 

[Sibylus]

Ah, that makes a bit more sense. Skeleton King would have leveled his melee lifesteal aura initially, so that both he and Ursa would have recuped a little HP in the attempt. Even still, that'd take forever with their paltry initial damage. If the other team can't be bothered to do simple warding or a simple bot rune/rosh check, they're already in trouble in ways more profound than an early Aegis for the enemy team.

 

[Haly]

There are various ways to do level 1 rosh, but in most cases, you need some kind of creep summon spell to tank damage for you, and damage reduction, either through buff or through heal (not armor, obviously, since rosh does pure damage).

Armor reduction also helps a lot.

Ursa is more for solo rosh at 6-7 minutes than level 1 rosh.

 

[Drkirby]

I feel to many people focus on Mek as THE support item, yet for some reason in most games there is no Ring of Basilius on ether team. It is dirt cheap (500 gold), but it provides one of the most useful auras in the game (2 armor and .65 Mana regin). Also, not enough Drums.

 

[Ikuu]

Err, I see a Basi in pretty much every game and a Mek is the best Support item.

 

[Swag]

Err, I see a Basi in pretty much every game and a Mek is the best Support item.

Basi is such an annoying item, cause the teams I play on end up with 2 of them somehow all the time. I've never made a drum though, always seemed like it wasn't that great in comparison to just making a Mek / Pipe, it gives a movement speed buff right?

Is it possible to get more charges on it?

 

[Raxus]

I feel to many teams focus on Mek as THE support item, yet for some reason in most games there is no Ring of Basilius. It is dirt cheap (500 gold), but it provides one of the most useful auras in the game (2 armor and .65 Mana regin). Also, not enough Drums.

Depends who you play. Dazzle and Omniknight just need the Soul ring and you're set. Otherwise you are strapped for cash since you are buying so many consumables depending on the situation. I agree mek is overrated and is on wayyy to many support character builds but it is unlikely you will be able to afford both mek and drum until late in the game. By then it is probably of no use.

 

[Ikuu]

Ancient Janggo of Endurance Price: 1725

Requires:
Bracer
Robe of the Magi
Ancient Janggo of Endurance Scroll

Gives:
9 Stats
9 Damage
Passive: Endurance Aura
5 attack speed, 5% movement speed, 900 AoE
Active: Endurance
Gives 10 attack speed and 10% movement speed during 6 seconds to all allied player-controlled units. 900 AoE. Lasts for 6 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
Note: Comes with 4 charges. The charges can be replenished by buying the recipe again.

Always get someone in the same lane as me buying a Basi when I had a RoR first.

Depends who you play. Dazzle and Omniknight just need the Soul ring and you're set. Otherwise you are strapped for cash since you are buying so many consumables depending on the situation. I agree mek is overrated and is on wayyy to many support character builds but it is unlikely you will be able to afford both mek and drum until late in the game. By then it is probably of no use.

Mek is in no way overrated, however too many people buy it too late, it's also much better to get than a Drum. Not sure whats with all this Drum love in this thread recently, I mean check out pro games and see how often Drum is purchased vs Mek.

 

[Haly]

Basi is such an annoying item, cause the teams I play on end up with 2 of them somehow all the time. I've never made a drum though, always seemed like it wasn't that great in comparison to just making a Mek / Pipe, it gives a movement speed buff right?

Is it possible to get more charges on it?

You have to rebuy the recipe to restore charges, like with Diffusal.

I never got that, surely the activate effect isn't so strong that it needs to be limited. Maybe it has something to do with early push strats? Should just do with HoN does with Diffusal 2.

I find the problem with Drum is that there are better choice among early game support items (most notably Mekansm). I've yet to see anyone buy drum and I only got it once. When I did, I felt that my money would've been better spent on Mekansm.

 

[Ikuu]

At the very least they should change Diffusal so that the charges are additive, and it doesn't just reset to 8 when you upgrade it.

 

[Drkirby]

You just buy the Recipe (750) if you need more charges. I think Drum is nice to build on a Strength Caster, since often they are starved for Mana, and the +6 int helps (Esspecally if you are playing more support like and have no inventory spots). I have seen more teams double up on Mek then get a Drum, which is just a nice support item. It's passive is essentially +15 Speed to everyone nearby, and the active will make it +45. Also, Drum + Phase = BAIL OUT!, +90 speed for 4 seconds, and +45 for 2 more after.

Most games a Mek is nice, but a Drum is effectively half the price, so its good if you want to help with ganking earlyish game. You more likely then not already have a Bracer, so you need 1200 more to build it. You are spending 1200 gold for 15 stat points, +5 AS, +6 damage, and +15 speed. Plus, the 6 Agi is more or less +1 armor.

It is more cost effective to upgrade your Bracer to a Drum then your boots to a Power Tread. (Boots to Power Tread is 950 for 8 stats, +5 speed, and +25 AS)

 

[Swag]

At the very least they should change Diffusal so that the charges are additive, and it doesn't just reset to 8 when you upgrade it.

This is really annoying because if your facing an omniknight and the game goes long, you have to repurchase the entirety of the item to get more charges.

 

[Archie]

Mek > Drum, but if someone else on the team already has a Mek then upgrading that bracer to a Drum isn't a bad idea.

Also the new Basi + Wraith Band item looks great. I still wish it used an INT mantle so Windrunner could benefit more from it.

 

[Haly]

I think it's more for mana starved Agi heroes who get an early ring as their sole mana sustain (like brood, for example).

WR is flexible enough with her itemization that she doesn't need yet ANOTHER regen item.

 

[Drkirby]

I feel like saying it again, I would argue upgrading a Bracer to a Drum is more cost effective then upgrading boots to treads.

For Drum, You are spending 1200 gold for 15 stat points (6 Agi, 6 Int, 3 Strength), +5 AS, +6 damage, +15 speed, and the utility to have an activatable move speed / attack speed steroid, and an aura.

For Treads, you are paying 950 for 8 stats, +5 speed, +25 AS. and the utility of being able to switch stats.

Plus, you get a greater speed boost by getting the Drum then the Treads.

 

[Holden]

I feel like saying it again, I would argue upgrading a Bracer to a Drum is more cost effective then upgrading boots to treads.

For Drum, You are spending 1200 gold for 15 stat points (6 Agi, 6 Int, 3 Strength), +5 AS, +6 damage, +15 speed, and the utility to have an activatable move speed / attack speed steroid, and an aura.

For Treads, you are paying 950 for 8 stats, +5 speed, +25 AS. and the utility of being able to switch stats.

Plus, you get a greater speed boost by getting the Drum then the Treads.

the switching stats is so good thow

 

[Kapura]

lol saving a support and forcing them to spend more time killing a support are two great things. Nothing gives you so much for so little money. Its tremendously cost efficient. Only stupid people act like ward buying isnt a priority, which wasnt even part of the argument. Orb by itself is worth so much less and it costs so much more gold to turn it into to something useful, unlike bracer to drum.

I know that ward buying is a priority, you seem to know that ward buying is a priority, but i can guarantee you that there are people reading this thread who do not know that (or forget sometimes). That's why you can't just go saying things like "supports should get a drum it's so good." People will take you at your word, and get a drum while neglecting things supports need to buy (courier, wards, mek). This is how the mind of a newer person works; they are new to the game so they will take all advice at face value.

Continuing the wards versus orb debate, it's boils down to whether you want to be marginally more useful starting at midgame or tremendously useful in the lategame. The stats aren't exceptional for the cost (iron branch and circlet both have better stats-to-cost ratio) and the aura isn't a gamechanger like an AC or even as good as shiva's guard. Then once you have a drum, you're stuck with it. It doesn't get any better, and if you want better items you start one item slot and 1750 gold down (or a "mere" 1200 gold if you had a bracer already).

Guys Dota is like a team game so dont suck, but seriously its all about the carry. I'm so good at this game, listen to me.

/kapura strawman

Nvm thats giving others shit isnt the same as constructive criticism to help them play better. Only an asshole thinks these are one and the same.

When I'm playing with people I know are new, I tend to pick carries because that gives us the best shot at winning. When I play with people who are better than I am, they play the carries because that gives us the best chance of winning. Ultimately for almost all team comps, the burden of winning the game rests with the carry. This is obvious. This also goes back to a previous discussion where I said that bad supports suck, but bad carries lose a game. If you don't understand this, you are unqualified to comment about the game. I'm sorry.

Regarding the last statement, I'm an asshole, but non-assholes can understand that when I give them shit in a loving manner it's mostly to help them play better.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Hey, I'm all for getting Mek quickly. Which is why you let Sand King (the boss) get the Drum. One of the best items he can get imo, but you have to consider if a quick Blink is more urgent.

Great games tonight, Hugoboss, Knives, Corky and whoever the Venge player was. Some damn tight plays

 

[Drkirby]

the switching stats is so good thow

For one, you will never use Agi outside of when you are healing, admit it. Unless you are an Agi Carry, but then this entire thing is a bit moot.

So, you have the option of changing from +8 Strength to +8 Int on the spot, or having +3 Strength, +6 Int , and +6 Agi permanently.

 

[Haly]

Hey, I'm all for getting Mek quickly. Which is why you let Sand King (the boss) get the Drum. One of the best items he can get imo, but you have to consider if a quick Blink is more urgent.

This is the problem. It is always always always always always always always more important to get a blink on a hero like SK, ES or Enig than some low-impact support item.

By the time they get Arcane Boots + Blink dagger, the time for drum is pretty much over.

 

[Swag]

For one, you will never use Agi outside of when you are healing, admit it. Unless you are an Agi Carry, but then this entire thing is a bit moot.

So, you have the option of changing from +8 Strength to +8 Int on the spot, or having +3 Strength, +6 Int , and +6 Agi permanently.

Use the agility so you can auto-attack more frequently, can mean the difference with a person getting away with one hit remaining or a kill.