Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE

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EmCeeGramr said:
Pick which is the funnier outcome of the "theory"

A) Shepard destroys the Reapers in his/her mind and then falls back to Earth and survives un-burnt-to-a-crisp
B) Shepard just shook off indoctrination and woke up in London and then ??? because we never see he/she actually going to the Crucible and stopping TIM and the Reapers
Click to expand...

what if the reapers were ALWAYS in shepard's mind?

think about it

it would explain why no one believes him. it would explain why he's so mad all the time in the promotional art. it's because he's mizundastood.

do it bioware!!!
 
Apophenia Overload said:
I agree the Indoctrination theory is reaching. However, it may be Bioware's way out- they can take credit that for it and claim it was their plan all along, and retcon the ending. Just do it Fallout 3: Broken Steel style with a new expansion pack/DLC. Easy peasy.
Click to expand...

"It was not until the end of this long road that the Shepard was faced with that greatest of virtues – sacrifice. But the Shepard refused to follow the writer's senseless Christ allegory, instead allowing a true hero to venture into the irradiated control chamber of the Crucible."
 
Lyphen said:
Mass Effect 3: Enhanced Edition Director's Cut.

Well, if they were a Polish PC developer anyway.
Click to expand...
But they are not, and they will never be.

I wonder what people from CDProjeckt Red thinks of this game.

EmCeeGramr said:
"It was not until the end of this long road that the Shepard was faced with that greatest of virtues – sacrifice. But the Shepard refused to follow the writer's senseless Christ allegory, instead allowing a true hero to venture into the irradiated control chamber of the Crucible."
Click to expand...
Space Jesus died for your sins (wait, what did he die for again?) and no one cared. :(
 
The Space Kid's entire reasoning for the behavior of the Reapers reminds me of a quote from the Vietnam War:

"It became necessary to destroy the town to save it"
 
Y2Kev said:
what if the reapers were ALWAYS in shepard's mind?

think about it

it would explain why no one believes him. it would explain why he's so mad all the time in the promotional art. it's because he's mizundastood.

do it bioware!!!
Click to expand...

Shepard gets to the Crucible and Saren is standing there.

"lol it really was just a geth ship and a VI on virmire. there's no such thing as reapers dumbass. owned."
 
Most of the indoctrination theory 'evidence' is just an attempt to excuse away lore inconsistencies and tacky over scripting. It gives BioWare benefit of the doubt, and they haven't earned it.

Chinner said:
an interesting ending would be that the reapers weakness is space-sex and depending on how many people you have had sex will determine if the reapers kill or give you mad props and leave out of respect.
Click to expand...

See this is the kind of ending retcon I'd pay big money for.
 
Y2Kev said:
what if the reapers were ALWAYS in shepard's mind?

think about it

it would explain why no one believes him. it would explain why he's so mad all the time in the promotional art. it's because he's mizundastood.

do it bioware!!!
Click to expand...

It would also explain why much of the game has you fighting fucking Cerberus humans instead of actual Reapers.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
"It was not until the end of this long road that the Shepard was faced with that greatest of virtues – sacrifice. But the Shepard refused to follow the writer's senseless Christ allegory, instead allowing a true hero to venture into the irradiated control chamber of the Crucible."
Click to expand...

Marauder Shields was the true hero.
 
EatChildren said:
Most of the indoctrination theory 'evidence' is just an attempt to excuse away lore inconsistencies and tacky over scripting. It gives BioWare benefit of the doubt, and they haven't earned it.



See this is the kind of ending retcon I'd pay big money for.
Click to expand...
This, all of this!
 
Generic said:
Well, even if I disagreed entirely with what you said, it really is a matter of pure opinion. You can continue believing that and I can continue believing what I believe.

But I do agree that we OUGHT to take the things you mentioned into consideration. But what happens when the author's opinion comes into direct conflict with what happens with the story? Do you let the author ruin the story, or do you choose to interpret it in such a way that the story quality remains intact. So, yes, I do think those things should be taken into consideration when analyzing the story, but that doesn't mean they are the final word on it by a long shot. The work itself is more important than the author. So, when needed, what the author says can be disregarded.

Besides, he never said "This is the correct interpretation" He just said he didn't intend it that way, which doesn't even come into conflict with the indoctrination theory. It just says that the way it happened was an accident rather than a conscious effort.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I need you to explain what you mean in the bolded, I don't understand in the way I think you want me to. What do you mean by ruin the story? Do you mean the author wrote something you disagree with or didn't want to happen, or that the story took a turn you feel is thematically inconsistent? Ultimately that's why we critique novels and literature, hey they made a mistake here, it would have been a better story had the author done X instead of Y. But that doesn't change what they wrote, even if you wanted something else.

Or do you mean the author tries to force down their opinion on matters that were never explicit, like say, who the main hero decided to romantically involve himself with. Perhaps the author says "I always intended Derek and Sally to be together", but that never happens in the book and fans thought it was going to be Molly based on the writing. Even in this case, I still think it's important to take into account both the content of the book and the author's intention.
 
EatChildren said:
Most of the indoctrination theory 'evidence' is just an attempt to excuse away lore inconsistencies and tacky over scripting. It gives BioWare benefit of the doubt, and they haven't earned it.
Click to expand...
That was the main reason I didn't like about the theroy. It gave too much credit for bioware.
 
7fFbM.jpg

Fwhmo.jpg
 
Rebel Leader said:
My Shepard had bright pink armor ... then it's gone
Click to expand...
The only reason I could even begin to entertain the indoctrination theory is how out there the ending is. This has to be an illusion, because it's bananas. More so than an indoctrination twist, with the true ending served up as DLC.

I want to see that happen, just to get some entertainment out if this ending.
 
Y2Kev said:
It was so that we could have a special encounter with Marauder Shields
Click to expand...

It was BioWare's means of ensuring we would overcome Lt. Shields' desperate attempt to save us from the ending.

EDIT: rofl @ that comic. the memes coming out of this debacle almost make the debacle worth it
no they don't :(
 
Y2Kev said:
Key pieces of the indoc ending seem to rely on lazy texturing.
Click to expand...

But we need to have hope.

Because without it we can just be machines.
Just doing the stuff we are programmed too.

/massive miss quote :p

And now claiming up the indoctrination theory won't work because they already said they wanted to screw their fanbase.

But we still got Marauder Shields.
 
Great post from BSN: How Bioware is handeling this situation PR wise

atghunter wrote...

Greetings All,

First, I’m flattered someone would repost this. Many thanks.

A couple follow-up thoughts for those wondering what is likely going on with the other side of the mirror in the last couple days:

First, Operation Goliath, the free Star Wars online weekend, and the recent noncommittal overtures to listen are faux olive branches. Sorry. Customers intrinsically want to believe companies they patronize listen and when they stop believing that, the company has to say they are listening and do anything to get the detractors off-message. There are a dozen names for this, but the most memorable was "The Shell Game."

You will know that there’s a genuine need for dialogue in the corporate bunker when the message turns from “we’re listening” to “we acknowledge we may have a disconnect with our consumers and are willing to discuss a meaningful solution to the problem.” It signals an end to non-committed deflection and opening genuine talks to solve the problem (it’s knows as “Exposing Your Throat” btw). At present, you’ll notice Bioware/EA has only said they will “explain” the endings. That’s not a give, that’s a delay tactic.

But here’s the part that amazes me as an old PR guy and is totally new. The disenfranchised base here is changing the old methodology. It’s akin to comparing old-style bunker PR defenses to new blitzkrieg-style consumers. To date, the “bunker strategy” was always used because it was virtually foolproof. However, social media and the 24 hour news cycle have simply changed everything. Twenty years ago, you could not mass 30,000 protesters into a networked base without some luck, money, a GREAT cause and (most importantly) time. By the time you did get organized, folks were either burned out or lost interest. Groups like Take Back have altered the landscape and suddenly the contest is taken from the old paradigm to a crazy new (and wonderful IMO) place. Preorder sales took away customers biggest weapon in the past (i.e. don’t buy the product). Now customers who feel they have received poor value have been potentially re-empowered by the internet. Bioware/EA is feeling the full brunt of this thing while passion is hottest. They are deploying countermeasures faster than the old strategies ever would have ever suggested. To some degree, they are being outmaneuvered atm. But now it depends on how long the protest/outcry holds up.

Two more quick points and I’ll close. First, the Child’s Play movement was brilliant. Notice over the past few days how some of the most visceral detractors to the outcry have had to shift their vitriol from “you’re spoiled selfish haters” to “sure you gave to charity, but you are spoiled selfish haters.” Nobody is drinking that Kool-Aid. Better yet, some outlets are now saying “maybe the game has problem but its still art” from the precedent message “best game ever.” That won’t fly with the mainstream. If its one thing they know is that when “art” hits the marketplace, it is a commodity, nothing more. You’ve changed the countermeasures from "unbiased" critics of the movement into drum beaters simply trying to get you angry. EA’s PR guys probably envy you (grudgingly) atm.

Second, don’t buy the only X people voted in the poll out of 1 billion customers, so they don’t care. That’s bunk. Are there "drum beaters" on both sides of this issue that just want to see controversy, sure. But if I was sitting in an office looking at that Bioware poll, I’d be reaching for a cigarette.

Finally remember, they have much more data at their disposal. They know how sales are going, how much time people are playing that are synced into Origin, etc. They will watch those numbers this weekend. If sales slow, watch for price cutting within 10 days (just over the two week US release date). It will mean that retailers are getting nervous and will slow new unit orders. As I’ve said before, this will come down to hard currency. If the protests start having an effect on that front, the response will come.

I’m an older gamer and again appreciate the repost. To everyone (on both sides) continue to let your voices be heard. You are consumers and have every right to engage in this discourse. The boards being locked yesterday proves someone is watching and knows this is an issue. I'm in the hated-ending camp to be sure, but I admire everyone one of you who is arguing for what believe on both sides!

Cheers.

Many men may be willing to die heroically for a noble cause, but few men will live humbly for one. Wilhelm Stekel

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10084349/9
 
Violently murdering space casper, even as paragon, is indeed the only solution.

I also didn't like how the game forced you to do renegade actions. If you didn't do them, you just die. That's like, a super lame way to communicate the whole 'we all need to compromise' line of thought.

Outside of those moments though, renegade does feel more substantial this time around. But then there also seem to be a lot more renegade responses than paragon. Maybe my game just bugged out or something.
 
Brawndo Addict said:
Hmm, I need you to explain what you mean in the bolded, I don't understand in the way I think you want me to. What do you mean by ruin the story? Do you mean the author wrote something you disagree with or didn't want to happen, or that the story took a turn you feel is thematically inconsistent? Ultimately that's why we critique novels and literature, hey they made a mistake here, it would have been a better story had the author done X instead of Y. But that doesn't change what they wrote, even if you wanted something else.

Or do you mean the author tries to force down their opinion on matters that were never explicit, like say, who the main hero decided to romantically involve himself in. Perhaps the author says "I always intended Derek and Sally to be together", but that never happens in the book and fans thought it was going to be Molly based on the writing. Even in this case, I still think it's important to take into account both the content of the book and the author's intention.
Click to expand...

Well, look at George lucas. 20 years after the Original trilogy has been solidified into our minds of the story of Luke going on a hero's journey, George goes "NOPE, IT WAS ALL ABOUT ANAKIN'S REDEMPTION". Are you seriously going to take his point of view on this simply because he is the author? It's not even whether his interpretation is valid or not, it's just a matter of whether you allow his interpretation to trample over yours, no matter how much yours works better.

My point is the product that they write stands alone in it's evaluation. If you can find a way that interprets it that it works perfectly because there is hundreds of pieces of evidence for it. Every page re-enforces this interpretation, but then the author says "Actually, it was about something totally different." Mass Effect has it bad because the synthetic vs organic eternal conflict theme was resolved in that same game and goes against that thematically, but it doesn't have to be that. It can just be an interpretation that has far less evidence and likelihood going for it. There doesn't need to be only one definitive interpretation of a work. Both can exist independantly from each other. Unless the author writes a sequel that specifically contradicts THAT interpretation, there is no reason to consider it invalid.

My position is that the authors word can illuminate matters on the work, bring into light certain themes or just bits of info that you didn't consider before. But the work ultimately stands on it's own, and should be evaluated as such. Because, contrary to what you might think, there are times where the fans know better than the creators.
 
Casey Hudson comments on ME3's ending

There’s been a lot of discussion and debate about the conclusion of Mass Effect 3, so I thought I’d share my perspective with you here. I’ll avoid outright spoilers, but I’d still recommend finishing the game and experiencing it for yourself before reading this.

For the last eight years, Mass Effect has been a labor of love for our team; love for the characters we’ve created, for the medium of video games, and for the fans that have supported us. For us and for you, Mass Effect 3 had to live up to a lot of expectations, not only for a great gaming experience, but for a resolution to the countless storylines and decisions you’ve made as a player since the journey began in 2007. So we designed Mass Effect 3 to be a series of endings to key plots and storylines, each culminating in scenes that show you the consequences of your actions. You then carry the knowledge of these consequences with you as you complete the final moments of your journey.

We always intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.

We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade calling it “an amazing accomplishment”, to emails and tweets from players who have given us the most profound words of appreciation we've ever received.

But we also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series.

I am extremely proud of what this team has accomplished, from the first art concepts for the Mass Effect universe to the final moments of Mass Effect 3. But we didn't do it on our own. Over the course of the series, Mass Effect has been a shared experience between the development team and our fans—not just a shared experience in playing the games, but in designing and developing them. An outpouring of love for Garrus and Tali led to their inclusion as love interests in Mass Effect 2. A request for deeper RPG systems led to key design changes in Mass Effect 3. Your feedback has always mattered. Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and players, and we continue to listen.

So where do we go from here? Throughout the next year, we will support Mass Effect 3 by working on new content. And we’ll keep listening, because your insights and constructive feedback will help determine what that content should be. This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard.

We look forward to your continued support and involvement as we work together to shape the remaining experiences in the story of the Mass Effect trilogy.

Thanks for taking this journey with us.

Casey Hudson
Click to expand...
 
Generic said:
In what way does it hinge on biowares intent? The future content of the theory hinges on their intent. The game we have does not.
Click to expand...

In every way. The game is Bioware's IP. They wrote the game's ending- and either intended for it to be an indoctrination attempt on Shepard, or they didn't. If they didn't, then the indoctrination theory cannot be correct.
 
Apophenia Overload said:
He didn't have to bang one of the Normandy crew. Or wait, he totally could, even if she was just a background crew member. If Jacob could hook up with some random scientist, Joker could find love from someone else besides a machine.

I just find it dumb that their relationship in ME 2 is one of building interspecies trust and overcoming prejudice to yet another shoehorned romance. What was an inspiring story about bridging xenophobia ends up as an excuse for them to bone, which just feels cheap. Why, Joker? Are you that lonely?!?

Canonically he is a loser with too much porn so I guess it does fit his character. I still don't like how they turned EDI into an anime-type character. "I have the body of a hottie but feelings are new to me. Teach me what you call... love."
Click to expand...

what, the totally random space ninja and TIM being reduced to little more than a muahaha villain didn't give the "I liek anime!" thing away?

Didn't mind the EDI-Joker thing that much though. Didn't make sense, yeah, but...wasn't against it either. And you could not encourage it at all, although I haven't gone back to check what happens if you do. Also, if you answer her questions 'wrong', she gets shot at some point, right?


Oh, and can someone tell me what is different about the Human Reaper corpse if you saved the base in ME2?
 
WARP10CK said:
Great post from BSN: How Bioware is handeling this situation PR wise

atghunter wrote...

Greetings All,

First, I’m flattered someone would repost this. Many thanks.

A couple follow-up thoughts for those wondering what is likely going on with the other side of the mirror in the last couple days:

First, Operation Goliath, the free Star Wars online weekend, and the recent noncommittal overtures to listen are faux olive branches. Sorry. Customers intrinsically want to believe companies they patronize listen and when they stop believing that, the company has to say they are listening and do anything to get the detractors off-message. There are a dozen names for this, but the most memorable was "The Shell Game."

You will know that there’s a genuine need for dialogue in the corporate bunker when the message turns from “we’re listening” to “we acknowledge we may have a disconnect with our consumers and are willing to discuss a meaningful solution to the problem.” It signals an end to non-committed deflection and opening genuine talks to solve the problem (it’s knows as “Exposing Your Throat” btw). At present, you’ll notice Bioware/EA has only said they will “explain” the endings. That’s not a give, that’s a delay tactic.

But here’s the part that amazes me as an old PR guy and is totally new. The disenfranchised base here is changing the old methodology. It’s akin to comparing old-style bunker PR defenses to new blitzkrieg-style consumers. To date, the “bunker strategy” was always used because it was virtually foolproof. However, social media and the 24 hour news cycle have simply changed everything. Twenty years ago, you could not mass 30,000 protesters into a networked base without some luck, money, a GREAT cause and (most importantly) time. By the time you did get organized, folks were either burned out or lost interest. Groups like Take Back have altered the landscape and suddenly the contest is taken from the old paradigm to a crazy new (and wonderful IMO) place. Preorder sales took away customers biggest weapon in the past (i.e. don’t buy the product). Now customers who feel they have received poor value have been potentially re-empowered by the internet. Bioware/EA is feeling the full brunt of this thing while passion is hottest. They are deploying countermeasures faster than the old strategies ever would have ever suggested. To some degree, they are being outmaneuvered atm. But now it depends on how long the protest/outcry holds up.

Two more quick points and I’ll close. First, the Child’s Play movement was brilliant. Notice over the past few days how some of the most visceral detractors to the outcry have had to shift their vitriol from “you’re spoiled selfish haters” to “sure you gave to charity, but you are spoiled selfish haters.” Nobody is drinking that Kool-Aid. Better yet, some outlets are now saying “maybe the game has problem but its still art” from the precedent message “best game ever.” That won’t fly with the mainstream. If its one thing they know is that when “art” hits the marketplace, it is a commodity, nothing more. You’ve changed the countermeasures from "unbiased" critics of the movement into drum beaters simply trying to get you angry. EA’s PR guys probably envy you (grudgingly) atm.

Second, don’t buy the only X people voted in the poll out of 1 billion customers, so they don’t care. That’s bunk. Are there "drum beaters" on both sides of this issue that just want to see controversy, sure. But if I was sitting in an office looking at that Bioware poll, I’d be reaching for a cigarette.

Finally remember, they have much more data at their disposal. They know how sales are going, how much time people are playing that are synced into Origin, etc. They will watch those numbers this weekend. If sales slow, watch for price cutting within 10 days (just over the two week US release date). It will mean that retailers are getting nervous and will slow new unit orders. As I’ve said before, this will come down to hard currency. If the protests start having an effect on that front, the response will come.

I’m an older gamer and again appreciate the repost. To everyone (on both sides) continue to let your voices be heard. You are consumers and have every right to engage in this discourse. The boards being locked yesterday proves someone is watching and knows this is an issue. I'm in the hated-ending camp to be sure, but I admire everyone one of you who is arguing for what believe on both sides!

Cheers.

Many men may be willing to die heroically for a noble cause, but few men will live humbly for one. Wilhelm Stekel

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10084349/9
Click to expand...
Love this guy, hope guys like sterling read this and cringe on the inside.
 
I think Casey just set a new record for longest post without saying anything significant.

It plays into what that supposed ex PR guy was saying in that recent post. "We're listening. We're taking feedback." Just to get us to shut up.
 
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