Support NeoGAF

[cartman414]

Apparently so, since we have people who honestly think being on shitty hardware made the game better.

FF13 sucked because of at it's core it was a bad idea.

SE ran themselves dry at the time working on Crystal Tools. Creating a more expansive world would have consumed even more time and money.

Enough games get HD makeovers to make that pure conjecture.

Said games had already also went through their primary dev cycles and more likely than not made money on their original release.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

lol

Kluwe pissing a lot of gamers off here.




Even diehard Nintendo fans can't hate Kluwe too much. He coined the term "douchpickle", for fuck's sake.

 

[Juice]

I chuckled at "Temple of Brown Textures and Jagged Edges",

But yeah. Thanks to their piss poor graphics I couldn't get into either SS or Xenoblade. :-(

 

[Tookay]

The thing that few people appreciate when they say that "Xenoblade is so epic in scale and it would be so much better if it had been on an HD console because the Wii is holding it back" is that it completely ignores the fact that a game of Xenoblade's scale was only financially feasible on the Wii.

There's a reason why the JRPG has experienced a slow death during the HD generation, and a reason why FFXIII's developers grumbled about it being "too hard" to make towns: games of the sort of scale and variety of content that was common just a generation ago are way too costly and time-consuming to create to be profitable in today's market.

Even if Monolith hadn't been shackled to Nintendo or the Wii, and had much more powerful hardware to work with, there's no guarantee that the Xenoblade everybody's wishing wasn't held back by the tech would exist. It was partially those limits that allowed it to be so grand and epic.

 

[RagnarokX]

You could but it would cost more money. Duh.

Allocation of resources/money actually mean something.

You assume that if the game cost more to make, it would be exactly the same, but you don't take that allocation into account.

It would cost more to make AND would only make $10 more retail. It seems likely that it would be much less financially viable on the HD consoles, especially since it's a new IP. It's a miracle Nintendo even approved it for Wii.

 

[chickdigger802]

I chuckled at "Temple of Brown Textures and Jagged Edges",

But yeah. Thanks to their piss poor graphics I couldn't get into either SS or Xenoblade. :-(

skyward sword looks fine .


It pretty much was designed to look fine on an hd tv unlike most wii games (simple textures, artistic style etc).

 

[Koren]

I chuckled at "Temple of Brown Textures and Jagged Edges"

Me too, especially since I remember this kind of talk back in the 90s saying that Nintendo designed N64 so that it could only display flashy colors...

Besides, I though that brown textures was "next gen" ^_^


On a more serious side, I agree with people saying that it may very well be "Xenoblade on SD or no Xenoblade at all". It's not as if there was a JRPG with a similar scale on HD Twins...

 

[djtiesto]

While I don't think Xenoblade is this mythical "RPG savior" people have made it out to be (Resonance of Fate and Valkyria Chronicles still remain my favorite console RPGs of the generation), it's still a great game... but the most upsetting thing about the game is not the graphics being compromised for being on the Wii... since at this point I've learned to live with compromises to play the core Japanese titles that I prefer (whether putting up with handheld gaming, waggle, or poor graphics). The most upsetting thing is the way Nintendo of America left this title to languish.

I think Japanese RPGs (and Japanese games in general) would do a helluva lot better with advertising and promotion. Sad since Nintendo of America was the reason I learned about the whole RPG genre in the first place, with the way they heavily pushed DQ1 and FF1 in the US market.

In a way I support Chris Warcraft with his argument, since part of me is bitter and frustrated at the way things turned out this gen... I would have KILLED for a game with Xenoblade-level scope on an HD platform... not saying a hypothetical "Xenoblade HD" would be the game but to have an RPG as popular and influential a game as FF7 again, get all those Japanese devs to pay attention to the HD systems and make grandiose RPGs again.

Chris, I hope you will play Ni No Kuni when it comes out. Now there's an RPG which looks absolutely breathtaking. Though I don't really know how it plays

 

[StevieP]

The thing that few people appreciate when they say that "Xenoblade is so epic in scale and it would be so much better if it had been on an HD console because the Wii is holding it back" is that it completely ignores the fact that a game of Xenoblade's scale was only financially feasible on the Wii.

There's a reason why the JRPG has experienced a slow death during the HD generation, and a reason why FFXIII's developers grumbled about it being "too hard" to make towns: games of the sort of scale and variety of content that was common just a generation ago are way too costly and time-consuming to create to be profitable in today's market.

Even if Monolith hadn't been shackled to Nintendo or the Wii, and had much more powerful hardware to work with, there's no guarantee that the Xenoblade everybody's wishing wasn't held back by the tech would exist. It was partially those limits that allowed it to be so grand and epic.

Yup. Scale costs money, and costs much more money when the assets are of much higher quality.

 

[bjb]

He makes absolutely valid points.

Wii's hardware is just complete garbage. Expecting the same from Wii U - at least in relation to the newer generations.

 

[StevieP]

He makes absolutely valid points.

Wii's hardware is just complete garbage. Expecting the same from Wii U - at least in relation to the newer generations.

Translation:
"playing games on the currently aged and dated (and eye-cutting-jaggies-inducing, screen-tearing, subHD, the whole deal) PS360 is perfectly fine. Until Nintendo does it and even newer consoles don't do it as badly, then it's garbage"

I hate to sound country-bumpkin-like, but y'all need to buy a gaming PC if you are that inclined to care about your image quality.

 

[KageMaru]

I look at the death of anything that isn't AAA on the consoles and wonder if that would have flied, though. Look at the peanut gallery already muttering about how bad Epic Mickey 2 looks, because it's a Wii game in HD. (Different situation based on expectations, I know, just an example.)

Yeah that's one of the factors that should be considered, if it were developed on an HD console, how much better would it look and how much should people really expect. No matter what it would be an improvement, which is the important part IMO.

I also understand that if it saw Epic Mickey 2 type enhancements, that people would troll or bitch still. However these people are likely the type who don't own Nintendo systems or would buy the game in the first place.

Personally, I agree that Xenoblade would look better in HD. I'm going to play the crap out of it on Dolphin if I get the chance. I'm just trying to think of a situation in which the SD issues could have been rectified in the market today, and my inability to do so has been the general gist of my posts.

Out of curiosity, what SD issues are you referring to?

It's an amusing joke, though it's hard to know who is being serious. I think you're already being taken up on your characterization already.

I would defend Nintendo's SD because it is an example of Nintendo's careful strategy of not blowing budgets out of the water. I believe those growing budgets have been a problem this generation, and lead to a slew of other issues. While I would have preferred a Wii with a bigger frame buffer and better component-out support, I see the overall strategy that Nintendo has started to take and support that. I prefer an industry where we have a wide variety of budgets available for developers.

I can't speak for others, but I think an inability to express this may be one of the reasons why misunderstandings occurred in this thread.

I'm never serious when I'm poking fun at any of the companies. If they make a dumb move or something, I'll definitely voice my opinion there, but I don't have anything against any of the companies to troll them. If anything, Nintendo holds a soft spot in my gaming heart.

I may not support Nintendo's choice for SD this gen since I don't own the console, but at the same time I don't necessarily fault them for their choice. What many people, including maybe Chris, don't understand is Nintendo can't afford to blow billions and billions on a high end console over and over again. Their entire business is centered around gaming, they have to be more conscious with the decisions they make regarding their profits where MS and Sony have other divisions that could help recoup the cost of a loss-leading console. The software aspect would have been different since that would have mostly just effected Nintendo's bottom line. If anything, had they launched an HD console this gen, they probably would have helped soften the blow of growing budgets since it would be an extra console to sell to.

No, you misunderstand. I'm telling you this is an imaginary race, there are no goal-posts. You can't win. This discussion is counter to reality where Monolith Soft had 2 choices in 2009 when they started, DS or Wii. Everything else is based on hypothetical scenarios and the only value is to add to a discussion that was terrible before it started.

I don't care about winning and you're still missing the point. I think everyone in this discussion realizes that this is a make-believe scenario, but it's this very scenario that is the source of Chris' frustration. These hypothetical scenarios are introduced to make a point and it's a point well worth discussing IMO.

Edit:

Translation:
"playing games on the currently aged and dated (and eye-cutting-jaggies-inducing, screen-tearing, subHD, the whole deal) PS360 is perfectly fine. Until Nintendo does it and even newer consoles don't do it as badly, then it's garbage"

I hate to sound country-bumpkin-like, but y'all need to buy a gaming PC if you are that inclined to care about your image quality.

Not entirely the same thing though. It's expected that standards will change come next gen and there is a chance the Wii-U will fall below these standards.

Caring about IQ or high-high end specs has nothing to do with this. It's all about standards and the frustration that Nintendo will be behind those standards.

Edit 2:

Not that I'm defending his post at all. I don't think the Wii is garbage or the Wii-U will be garbage.

 

[Esura]

Translation:
"playing games on the currently aged and dated (and eye-cutting-jaggies-inducing, screen-tearing, subHD, the whole deal) PS360 is perfectly fine. Until Nintendo does it and even newer consoles don't do it as badly, then it's garbage"

I hate to sound country-bumpkin-like, but y'all need to buy a gaming PC if you are that inclined to care about your image quality.

Why do people keep bringing up PCs? I don't think anyone is wishing for anything on the level of Witcher 2 or something, just anything better than how Xenoblade currently looks on the Wii.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Out of curiosity, what SD issues are you referring to?

The ones from the OP plus everything else mentioned in the thread: the low powered nature of the Wii, the low resolution, the jaggy edges, the poor image quality of the Wii overall. Kind of a poor umbrella term; I apologize.

If anything, had they launched an HD console this gen, they probably would have helped soften the blow of growing budgets this gen since it would be an extra console to sell to.

Perhaps you're right. I'm wondering how much that would have expanded the audience, and in what direction. (More what-ifs!) I think this generation would have been healthier if the Wii had been supported better, because it really was a desert by 2008. That is partially Nintendo's fault, as ever, and the design of the system. But most third parties didn't even try. One or two low-budget games with a brand slapped on was not adequate. That would have helped.

Otherwise, I think we're on the same page. I agree with everything else in your post.

 

[jimi_dini]

LMAO, I love this thread. "You can't have a good game like xenoblade on HD consoles guys, only possible on last gen tech, sorry".

Who said it was impossible. Noone would do it, unless they took 200$ for the game or sold 3/4th of it via DLC or went bankrupt. Another way would be make it "not good looking HD" to save costs and you would get exactly the same people complaining about "bad" graphics. Love the hyperbole.

If RPGs would have a userbase like CoD, someone would have already done it, because in that case it would/could be profitable.

 

[Durante]

Translation:
"playing games on the currently aged and dated (and eye-cutting-jaggies-inducing, screen-tearing, subHD, the whole deal) PS360 is perfectly fine. Until Nintendo does it and even newer consoles don't do it as badly, then it's garbage"

I hate to sound country-bumpkin-like, but y'all need to buy a gaming PC if you are that inclined to care about your image quality.

Why do you always assume this when people complain about the atrocious IQ on Nintendo platforms? Some of us also complain about it when IQ in games on the so-called HD twins sucks.

Also, not all games on those platforms are "eye-cutting-jaggies-inducing subHD", some offer good IQ. The same cannot be said about 3D games on Wii.

 

[SMT]

At least someone had the gall to say it. Props to him for calling out Nintendo, they deserve it every once and a while.

 

[ponpo]

I haven't played much of Xenoblade but is the game really -that- much more expansive than any other current gen game to have been not feasible financially on an hd console?

Regardless, I doubt the game has something that will wow me more than FFXIII-2's populated Academia.

 

[Exterminieren]

At least someone had the gall to say it. Props to him for calling out Nintendo, they deserve it every once and a while.

Yep, pointing out that the Wii is not as powerful as the PS360 is a really underrepresented viewpoint.

Kudos to this guy for calling Nintendo out on a subject than none of the games media had the courage to talk about. A real hero.

 

[NervousXtian]

Most of the assets up-res just freaking fine. Thus the Dolphin comparison.

Why all of a sudden would it cost them all that much more to make a JRPG in HD again?

Argument makes no sense.

 

[RagnarokX]

Why do people keep bringing up PCs? I don't think anyone is wishing for anything on the level of Witcher 2 or something, just anything better than how Xenoblade currently looks on the Wii.

Why do you always assume this when people complain about the atrocious IQ on Nintendo platforms? Some of us also complain about it when IQ in games on the so-called HD twins sucks.

Also, not all games on those platforms are "eye-cutting-jaggies-inducing subHD", some offer good IQ. The same cannot be said about 3D games on Wii.

It's bad logic and hyperbole.

PS3 and 360 games look fine and Wii games look like crap because of hardware.
WiiU games will look better than PS3 and 360 games.
Therefor WiiU games will look like crap... wait, what?

I mean, will all PS3 and 360 games look like crap the day WiiU launches as well? That will be quite an awkward wait for PS4 and 720.

 

[Christine]

If anything, had they launched an HD console this gen, they probably would have helped soften the blow of growing budgets this gen since it would be an extra console to sell to.

I think that this assumes an unrealistic number of people who wanted to buy that software yet somehow were unwilling to buy any of the platforms that it appeared on.

 

[Boss Man]

I don't even have to read the article. That "punch a kitten" and "severed unicorn head" speak belongs to 15 year old GameFaQs posters who are trying really hard to be cool.

 

[KageMaru]

It's bad logic and hyperbole.

PS3 and 360 games look fine and Wii games look like crap because of hardware.
WiiU games will look better than PS3 and 360 games.
Therefor WiiU games will look like crap... wait, what?

I mean, will all PS3 and 360 games look like crap the day WiiU launches as well? That will be quite an awkward wait for PS4 and 720.

No, but they will likely look like crap compared to PS4 and 720 games, which has been the point all along.

Edit:

I think that this assumes an unrealistic number of people who wanted to buy that software yet somehow were unwilling to buy any of the platforms that it appeared on.

Valid point and a good one at that. I was mostly looking at it from the perspective of having a bigger pie to sell to. True anyone that wanted GTAIV, for example, will have purchased a PS3 or 360 anyways, but there's always the chance that someone who already owns a console can purchase the software. Similar to how making even a budget exclusive to the PS2 was less risky because if even 10% of the install base purchased your game, you could still make profit.

Having a bigger market is never a bad thing I guess is all I'm saying.

 

[Durante]

It's bad logic and hyperbole.

PS3 and 360 games look fine and Wii games look like crap because of hardware.
WiiU games will look better than PS3 and 360 games.
Therefor WiiU games will look like crap... wait, what?

I mean, will all PS3 and 360 games look like crap the day WiiU launches as well? That will be quite an awkward wait for PS4 and 720.

I don't know why you quoted me, I think you missed my point.

What I'm saying is that tons of PS360 games don't look fine at all in terms of IQ, and what we've seen running on Wii U (720p no AA) doesn't inspire much confidence either.

Still, there's a difference between bad IQ (e.g. ~720p with little or no AA) and utterly atrocious IQ (e.g. anamorphic SD with no AA and lots of alpha-tested moving grass blades on the screen).

 

[Red Arremer]

Game journalism.

.

I laugh in the face of those that say a game is shit because the graphics aren't HD.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Most of the assets up-res just freaking fine. Thus the Dolphin comparison.

Why all of a sudden would it cost them all that much more to make a JRPG in HD again?

Argument makes no sense.

Wait until Epic Mickey 2 comes out for the HD consoles; you'll never stop hearing the endless "it looks like a Wii game, ugly! lolololol." Heck, it's already started. To much of the market, that's not an acceptable benchmark for the HD consoles.

 

[StevieP]

I don't know why you quoted me, I think you missed my point.

What I'm saying is that tons of PS360 games don't look fine at all in terms of IQ, and what we've seen running on Wii U (720p no AA) doesn't inspire much confidence either.

Still, there's a difference between bad IQ (e.g. ~720p with little or no AA) and atrocious IQ (e.g. anamorphic SD with no AA).

I fully agree with you. There are some examples of eye-bleeding jaggies on many of the Wii games I played over this generation, which is why that I now play many of them on Dolphin - because I can. I say the same thing when I occasionally boot up my ps2 as well, not to mention an even bigger jag-fest when I boot up even older systems or load stuff up on digital platforms like the virtual console.

However, the same can be said for many 360 and PS3 games I played this generation as well. As an example, the first time I loaded up BF3 on a 360 I experienced a sort of... wow moment. And not the good kind of wow. I am someone who's used to playing it maxed out at Ultra @ 1080p, mind you.

Does this mean that the 360 is crap, too? Does this invalidate all 360 games because there is a platform that is better looking? Because if that's the case, and I continue to pursue this poor logic, we'll end up with a forum that only appreciates dual/tri-GPU PC gaming.

In my opinion, the 360 is a great software platform. Halo was not made a bad game because of (non-bullshot) screens like this:

Conversely, as RagnarokX has mentioned - it's poor logic to follow that what we have today (or slightly better than what we have today) is OK, unless the label at the front of the console says "Nintendo" on it. Good games are good games, no matter the platform. If someone went and made one of the best RPGs of this generation on the MSX, I'd buy myself a copy there too. You can get mad at the Wii for being SD over and over again, but it was absolutely the right move at the time as history has shown. Either you enjoy the games on the platform (I know I enjoyed many) or you play something else. Xenoblade is well worth any low resolution jagged texture, as is Halo.

 

[KageMaru]

.

I laugh in the face of those that say a game is shit because the graphics aren't HD.

He didn't say that though >_>

 

[Rokal]

Seeing the screenshots of Xenoblade on Wii vs Dolphin is heart-breaking.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Conversely, as RagnarokX has mentioned - it's poor logic to follow that what we have today (or slightly better than what we have today) is OK, unless the label at the front of the console says "Nintendo" on it. Good games are good games, no matter the platform. If someone went and made one of the best RPGs of this generation on the MSX, I'd buy myself a copy there too.

A thought here is that apparently all (is it literally all?) of the games that break out into the true mass market are not predicated on wowing people with bleeding edge visual technology by the standards that enthusiast gamers use.

From World of Warcraft to Angry Birds to Wii Sports to Cut the Rope to Mario Kart... the games that most people (in terms of a sampling of the total population) want to play, sell themselves based off the how entertaining it is as the kind of game it tries to be. Not off of "we've got Super Shader X with 300x FSAA and Tri-Ocular Bi-Polarity Fong Widgets!"

Selling games based on the sexiness of the technology involved is basically a market limited to nerds, geeks, and young males who want to have the most horses under the hood.

Note here that I'm not saying hot graphics and hardware are bad. Technology is cool.

But enthusiast gamers are, ironically, not always the best people to poll on the state of gaming because they have extremely skewed priorities.

The thing that troubles people about Nintendo remains, that Nintendo does not exclusively service the enthusiast gamer. Enthusiast gamers are possessive about their hobby and tend to see it as belonging first and foremost to them. That game developers tend to be the same technology loving geeks just creates the perception of a closed circle - it's all a big boys toy club, by the boys, for the boys.

The Wii was a shock to the system that caused many gamers to crack and live in a permanent state of denial (that they're still in to this day).

It's funny how due to just one console (Wii) people now have a remarkably warped view of Nintendo.

I will say this... if the day comes that the next gen MS/Sony consoles are not, in fact, 20 times more powerful than Wii U, and do not actually "give us the technological superiority we deserve!" the meltdowns will be catastrophic.

Seeing the screenshots of Xenoblade on Wii vs Dolphin is heart-breaking.

I've said for a while that Nintendo's biggest mistake with Wii is that, because they themselves were not sure how successful it would be, they lowballed it just a bit much.

In hindsight, it seems they could have afforded to pump it up just a touch. If Wii had output 720p, and had support for some more modern tech like basic shaders, the landscape might have been very different. Aside from allowing 3rd parties to use their tech experience more readily on the Wii, I know from personal anecdotes that lots of core gamers refused to buy a Wii precisely because of the HD issue. They wanted HD consoles to go on their shiny new HD tv.

Core gamers abandoning Wii seems to have resulted in the problem of what hardcore games the Wii did get, not selling. Even people I know who did own a Wii didn't want to buy a good game when it came out because it looked bad on their TV. I showed Red Steel 2 to a guy, and he thought it was cool as hell and wanted to play it, but then said too bad it wasn't on Xbox with a similar motion controller because Wii wasn't HD and he didn't play it anymore.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I don't even have to read the article. That "punch a kitten" and "severed unicorn head" speak belongs to 15 year old GameFaQs posters who are trying really hard to be cool.

Kluwe is notorious for this crazy shit.

There's a reason he's the most popular punter in the NFL. The guy is really outspoken and isn't afraid to present his opinion. He also does a shitload for local MN charities. Oh... and he's damn good at the 'coffin-corner' kick.

A classic Kluwe-ism from when the NFL lockout was going on:

This is directed at Commissioner Roger Goodell:

and this gem:

And what sports fan doesn't like the idea of Skip Bayless getting his ass handed to him? Yeah. Kluwe has done that, too.
I'm not saying I agree with him 100% (only about 90%), but he's not just some basement dwelling faux-journalist 'trying to be cool'.

 

[StevieP]

I will say this... if the day comes that the next gen MS/Sony consoles are not, in fact, 20 times more powerful than Wii U, and do not actually "give us the technological superiority we deserve!" the meltdowns will be catastrophic.

I'm willing to go on record as stating that 1 out of the 2 other companies will not deliver that big leap people are wanting/expecting. Granted both will have more "under the hood" than the Wii U, but it will be a case of:

 

[Hero]

I will say this... if the day comes that the next gen MS/Sony consoles are not, in fact, 20 times more powerful than Wii U, and do not actually "give us the technological superiority we deserve!" the meltdowns will be catastrophic.

Agree with most of what you said but this in particular will be fun to watch. I really doubt Sony is going to to put cutting edge technology into the PS4 after how much they lost with the PS3 so I'm really expecting them to scale it back. When we actually find out how powerful the next Sony/MS systems really are will be interesting either way. But if it doesn't live up to these ridiculously built up expectations I foresee a lot of shit on GAF.

 

[NBtoaster]

In my opinion, the 360 is a great software platform. Halo was not made a bad game because of (non-bullshot) screens like this:
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/822/822415/halo-3-20070923023349398.jpg[IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Actually even that's a bullshot ;)

It wasn't a bad game for it, but it would be a better game with good IQ, all else equal.

 

[Amir0x]

I am a graphics whore and even I think the article is absurd.

I simply don't think the graphics are near bad enough to make it actively ruin the experience or "hold it back" to such a degree that one might be inspired to write an article about it. For a Wii game, it looks like about as much effort as a Wii game can have visually... and for a big RPG, that's about it. Realistically, on an HD console, we'd probably have half the content and such because Japanese developers are so terrible at developing epic RPGs for next-gen platforms for some reason, so maybe it is for the best.

I hope now that Wii U is going HD it'll force these developers to get it together. Maybe a Xenoblade 2 with HD graphics, mmmm.

My main things will always be

+ 60fps
+ Full HD resolution 1080p
+ Detailed texture work hi-res

if you get good at these things, everything else can be less impressive and you'd get a package that really pleases the eye. Japanese RPGs are generally pretty colorful affairs with lots of high imagination, which works to the benefit of allowing people to overlook, say, fewer polygons or whatever the case may be.

But if you nail the texture work and eliminate jaggies as best you can and get the resolution and framerate right, it'll be pleasing enough. That's what Xenoblade would have needed to be there visually I'd say.

 

[ChrisWarcraft]

While I don't think Xenoblade is this mythical "RPG savior" people have made it out to be (Resonance of Fate and Valkyria Chronicles still remain my favorite console RPGs of the generation), it's still a great game... but the most upsetting thing about the game is not the graphics being compromised for being on the Wii... since at this point I've learned to live with compromises to play the core Japanese titles that I prefer (whether putting up with handheld gaming, waggle, or poor graphics). The most upsetting thing is the way Nintendo of America left this title to languish.

I think Japanese RPGs (and Japanese games in general) would do a helluva lot better with advertising and promotion. Sad since Nintendo of America was the reason I learned about the whole RPG genre in the first place, with the way they heavily pushed DQ1 and FF1 in the US market.

In a way I support Chris Warcraft with his argument, since part of me is bitter and frustrated at the way things turned out this gen... I would have KILLED for a game with Xenoblade-level scope on an HD platform... not saying a hypothetical "Xenoblade HD" would be the game but to have an RPG as popular and influential a game as FF7 again, get all those Japanese devs to pay attention to the HD systems and make grandiose RPGs again.

Chris, I hope you will play Ni No Kuni when it comes out. Now there's an RPG which looks absolutely breathtaking. Though I don't really know how it plays

I'll give it a shot, but gameplay is king after all, if it's not entertaining it doesn't matter how shiny it is. I know a lot of people feel that I'm saying "FFXIII graphics or death!", but that wasn't the point at all. The point is that even mediocre graphics would let the game shine through visually so much better than what the Wii is capable of. I'm not asking for a Crysis rig. I'm asking for a minimum level of hardware, one that Nintendo has slowly been moving away from, and from what I'm hearing about the Wii U, it's a pattern they'll continue following. Has it made them money? Sure. Bless them for that. It just makes me sad, that's all. It's like hearing a concert violinist performing on a $50 after school special vs. a well tuned and maintained violin (not even a Stradavarius). The performance will be great either way but you can't get the subtle nuances on the $50 piece of wood.

Quick story. When I was playing Xenoblade, my brother walked into the room and asked me "Why do all the characters look like fish talking?". It occurred to me I had been thinking that exact same thing for the last two hours. Then we just started saying "fish fish fish" whenever they spoke and it was hilarious. Good times.

Back to the point. The point is I thought FFXIII was adequate at best, and FFXIII-2 was an absolute trainwreck, *because* the story and characters didn't make me care about them. Sure the graphics were pretty, but the game itself was bland. Xenoblade is the exact opposite. I care about the characters (though Riki makes me grit my teeth at times), I care about the world, and it bums me out that even moderate tech (like being to upscale it in Dolphin) adds so much more to the visual experience of what is already a fantastic game. I *want* jrpgs to come back. I love playing them. But when the best jrpg of this generation is on a system that most people are going to write off as 'casual' (whether that be true or not) because it simply cannot compete graphically, well, that makes it a lot harder. And that also makes me sad, because it means a genre I love to play will gradually grow smaller and smaller.

As for my writing style? Well, all I can say is that some of you are a little uptight at times. I promise that no kittens were harmed during the creation of that article, nor were any unicorns beheaded. (I may have stuffed a puppy or two into a wood chipper though)

p.s. I do unto trolls as they would do unto me. It's the Golden Rule!

 

[StevieP]

Actually even that's a bullshot

It wasn't a bad game for it, but it would be a better game with good IQ, all else equal.

How can a framebuffer grab be a bullshot? Regardless, following that train of logic would have gaming be (high-end) PC exclusive because as of this generation that's the only place you're going to get the best visual output from here on out. I wouldn't mind that, because I have one. I'm sure a lot of others would mind, however.

 

[KageMaru]

I will say this... if the day comes that the next gen MS/Sony consoles are not, in fact, 20 times more powerful than Wii U, and do not actually "give us the technological superiority we deserve!" the meltdowns will be catastrophic.

We already know that there's little to no chance that the ps4/720 will be 20x more powerful than the Wii-U or ps360 though. So there shouldn't be any meltdowns really.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Agree with most of what you said but this in particular will be fun to watch. I really doubt Sony is going to to put cutting edge technology into the PS4 after how much they lost with the PS3 so I'm really expecting them to scale it back. When we actually find out how powerful the next Sony/MS systems really are will be interesting either way. But if it doesn't live up to these ridiculously built up expectations I foresee a lot of shit on GAF.

If Sony actually goes off in a different direction with PS4 / "Orbis" I think that could be their justification for not trying to compete directly in the silicon wars.

But even with Xbox 720, there could be immediate shell shock since much of what we will see would just be "gaming PC quality" games at first. We're already used to what those look like. Those with decent gaming rigs are already playing them. I'm not sure if it's really possible for the next gen hardware to surprise or "impress" anyone by the standards people seem to judge generational transitions by.

I've said it before and will say it again. Console gamers had their gentle minds blown at the start of this generation by being handed powerful set-top PC boxes running games with visual technologies that weren't even part of a direct evolutionary lineage from their previous experience.

But now that transition has been made. What's coming next is probably just iteration. Not a fundamental difference in kind. But people are expecting it to somehow be like when they played PGR3 on their new HD plasma screen after having just come from playing PS2 games on an interlaced boob tube.

It's just not in the cards.

 

[Takuan]

I can see where he's coming from. He acknowledges that the game is good, even great, but would have benefitted from being on stronger hardware. I feel the same about Last Story, which has some wonderful art direction that is made less impactful due to image quality issues and other limitations. He goes off on a tangent about waggle and other nonsense, but I'm with him on the graphics.

 

[StAidan]

Selling games based on the sexiness of the technology involved is basically a market limited to nerds, geeks, and young males who want to have the most horses under the hood.

Note here that I'm not saying hot graphics and hardware are bad. Technology is cool.

But enthusiast gamers are, ironically, not always the best people to poll on the state of gaming because they have extremely skewed priorities.

This is by far the most sensible post in this entire thread.

I like awesome graphics as much as the next guy, but heck, all of my favorite (console) games this gen have been on the Wii, so that's my console of choice. I also have an Xbox 360, on which I have purchased a single game (Braid).

I consider myself an enthusiast gamer, and have been gaming since the NES was released. But at the same time, my gaming values are much more in the mass-market realm in the sense that graphics have never been a deciding factor for me.

Full disclosure: I am playing through Xenoblade on Dolphin

 

[Jac_Solar]

So you feel that if this were on an HD console it could've ended up a different because the focus would've been on graphics, and that could've detracted something else.

By the same token I think the developer really pushed the Wii with this game, so yeah, graphics apparently were just as big a focus. They just had weaker hardware to work with.

Good point, but my main point was that the expectations of 'best graphics' (Relative to system and the publics definition of best graphics.) by customers, publishers alike wouldn't let such a game be made on a HD console. Some people have said this already, but still, many people disagree. I do not understand the logic behind this way of thinking, cause it contradicts the facts.

They'd have to allocate so much resources to model making, resource distribution systems, and so on. Someone here on GAF explained the amount of work behind making a model on a HD system, and the process of making 1 main model was just so extremely elaborate and long.

Sure, the expected standards of graphics might be lower for RPG's even on Xbox 360/PS3, but even that would most likely have compromised the development of Xenoblade Chronicles.

It's not as simple as 'just make the same game but with better graphics'. Basic human nature makes that an unlikely scenario. There are many variables involved, like the fanbase expectations, the publics expectations, publisher expectations, developer expectations, all those groups' thoughts on the expectations and how those thoughts form and shape their perceived reality, ideas, etc. These thoughts on the expectation and attitude, mentality of a team working on an SD project opposed to a team working on a HD project, and so on.

There's just no real proof to the contrary, as evidenced by the gaming library of PS3 and Xbox 360. Sure, there are some massive open world games, but nothing like Xenoblade Chronicles, despite being on 'the superior console'.

It's possible Xenoblade would have been the same game on a HD console, it's just extremely unlikely.

Various qualities like great gaming mechanics, beautiful art, great A.I, great story, etc tend to take a backseat to graphics the more money a project gets. Some of the quality might remain of course.

Nobody wants to throw money away, so the more money = the more people they have to reach just to break even, so, the more general a story has to be, the better graphics have to be (Cause most people either would greatly prefer great graphics or do not mind.), the more streamlined a gaming experience has to be, and so on.

 

[NBtoaster]

How can a framebuffer grab be a bullshot? Regardless, following that train of logic would have gaming be (high-end) PC exclusive because as of this generation that's the only place you're going to get the best visual output from here on out. I wouldn't mind that, because I have one. I'm sure a lot of others would mind, however.

It's a 720p native press screen, the game is lower res than that.

I don't expect perfect graphics on consoles, I just don't want to be distracted by jaggies.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

While I don't think Xenoblade is this mythical "RPG savior" people have made it out to be (Resonance of Fate and Valkyria Chronicles still remain my favorite console RPGs of the generation), it's still a great game... but the most upsetting thing about the game is not the graphics being compromised for being on the Wii... since at this point I've learned to live with compromises to play the core Japanese titles that I prefer (whether putting up with handheld gaming, waggle, or poor graphics). The most upsetting thing is the way Nintendo of America left this title to languish.

I think Japanese RPGs (and Japanese games in general) would do a helluva lot better with advertising and promotion. Sad since Nintendo of America was the reason I learned about the whole RPG genre in the first place, with the way they heavily pushed DQ1 and FF1 in the US market.

In a way I support Chris Warcraft with his argument, since part of me is bitter and frustrated at the way things turned out this gen... I would have KILLED for a game with Xenoblade-level scope on an HD platform... not saying a hypothetical "Xenoblade HD" would be the game but to have an RPG as popular and influential a game as FF7 again, get all those Japanese devs to pay attention to the HD systems and make grandiose RPGs again.

Chris, I hope you will play Ni No Kuni when it comes out. Now there's an RPG which looks absolutely breathtaking. Though I don't really know how it plays

The gaming public at large have to get over the "shit on JRPGs" zeitgeist for that to happen and start to buy those VC1s and RoFs and ToVs of the world. HD be expensive yo. We, the enthusiasts, can only do so much, really, as each of us can't and shouldn't buy every HD title that comes out even if that would work. Until then, we should keep buying what we do like, clasp onto our handhelds like a lifeline, and keep wishing for SMT4 in HD glory announcement later this year.

 

[flintstryker]

Based on that Iwata Ask interview I am fairly certain this game would have been very different had Monilith not been owned by Nintendo.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

So, with all this talk of "Xenoblade would have been a different game
had it been made for the HD platforms", what do you guys expect from
Monolith Soft's Wii U game?

Will they be forced to work with little more than a last gen budget on their
next big RPG, thus having to scale the game down, or will Iwata reach
for the wallet and give them the AAA budget they so rightly deserve?

 

[RagnarokX]

I don't know why you quoted me, I think you missed my point.

What I'm saying is that tons of PS360 games don't look fine at all in terms of IQ, and what we've seen running on Wii U (720p no AA) doesn't inspire much confidence either.

Still, there's a difference between bad IQ (e.g. ~720p with little or no AA) and utterly atrocious IQ (e.g. anamorphic SD with no AA and lots of alpha-tested moving grass blades on the screen).

Sorry, I quoted you because the guy who was quoted in what you quoted was basically saying all games will look bad on WiiU, which just isn't true. Current HD games look fine, and WiiU will look fine simply by virtue of being able to run games at 720p-1080p. Given how good Wii games can look in SD, you'd expect Nintendo to wring every drop of power out of WiiU as well. We haven't seen anything on WiiU but tech demos, but given how Nintendo always pushes their consoles to the limit, I have confidence they'll make the most of it.

 

[Correctomundo]

whalleywhat
Banned
(Today, 08:38 AM)
Quote

Well that was quick.

And for what? Employing Godwin's Law?

 

[Kai Dracon]

So, with all this talk of "Xenoblade would have been a different game
had it been made for the HD platforms", what do you guys expect from
Monolith Soft's Wii U game?

Will they be forced to work with little more than a last gen budget on their
next big RPG, thus having to scale the game down, or will Iwata reach
for the wallet and give them the AAA budget they so rightly deserve?

We all could end up being shocked by the unexpected but... if what they're making is a large scale RPG (or large scale anything) odds are good they'll stick to a non-literal art style. An overall presentation that doesn't require a huge budget for assets and army of mo-capped actors with facial technology.

In short, compared to a Final Fantasy XIII, their game will be a "Darksiders". Quality visual presentation with great attention to detail and a great art style, but not something that is as technologically dependent as a God of War III. (Comparing games with similar engines, gameplay, genres.)