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[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Is Mortal Kombat not a fighting game because it has a cart racing minigame?

Mortal Kombat is definitely a fighter. However, the cart racing minigame isn't a fighting game just because it includes some element (fighting game characters) of the fighter genre.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Those games don't play anything like Smash Bros

what are you talking about...

I guess I will go with Bad Dudes if those other games aren't acceptable. 2d planes and all kinds of fighting... best fighter ever!

 

[Kontergurke]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything of the sort. They can list the game as whatever they want. I may or may not agree with it.

And have you even played the first Mario Bros multiplayer? How about Joust? Should Joust be considered a fighter? It shares a lot in common with smash regardless of how old or simple its mechanics are.

I just watched the Classic Game Room episode about Jouste and what I found interesting is that he didn't even mention a 2-player mode.
Gameplay-wise I can't even begin to understand how you could think that game is a fighting game. It doesn't have attacks, blocks or throws, there are no moves or combos of any kind, you're literally just jumping/flying around in that game. It's a textbook single screen-platformer if I ever saw one.

 

[Angry Puppy]

Smash is a party fighter, which is still a fighting game at its core.

The comparisons with Mario kart are spot on. Mario Kart is a racing game that leans more toward a party angle.

 

[Fugu]

What's wrong with calling in a party fighter? It ticks all the boxes. Sure you can turn off items, but on the flipside that means you can turn them on. Games don't have to be pigeonholed into a handful of categories, otherwise Mario Kart and Gran Turismo would both share the genre of racing despite the fact that anyone can tell you they are completely different game.

I don't care if people call it a party fighter, because a party fighter is still a fighter, just like how kart racing is still racing. I don't really think I'll be calling it a party fighter though, simply because Melee in particular has reached such a broad audience (one that encompasses the fighting equivalent audience that has been captured by both MK and GT) that I'm not sure an appropriate subgenre distinction exists.

 

[Professor Beef]

Good job confirming that you're trolling then.

I confirmed that about 6 pages ago. Why people keep indulging him is beyond my understanding.

 

[rpmurphy]

what are you talking about

How are side-scrolling beat-em-ups similar in gameplay to an arena fighter? I'm not at all getting the comparisons to the beat-em-up genre in this thread. Sure, Nintendo added Adventure mode for the SP which expanded into SSE in Brawl, but there was nothing other than arena fighting in the first game.

 

[Infinite]

I confirmed that about 6 pages ago. Why people keep indulging him is beyond my understanding.

I have not a clue myself. Not falling in that trap again though.

 

[BGBW]

You were comparing two games which at both their cores involves using vehicles to race to a finish line.

Congratulations, that was my point. If you boil down the games to their most common factor you'd consider them to be of the game genre but yet we don't because in take into account all the other factors.

I still don't understand why people find the idea of smash being called a party fighter so bad. It's still being called a fighter at the end of the day. And like I said this satisfies both camps and thus this whole argument can be put to rest.

Also party is the adjective here. I'm not putting Smash into two separate categories of fighter and party, but just one called party fighter.

 

[Kontergurke]

I confirmed that about 6 pages ago. Why people keep indulging him is beyond my understanding.

I'm still trying to find and understand his real argument buried under the pile of sarcasm.

 

[charsace]

I can't believe you still think it is!

Why isn't it a fighting game? You have characters in a ring fighting. Isn't that a fighting game?

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

I just watched the Classic Game Room episode about Jouste and what I found interesting is that he didn't even mention a 2-player mode.
Gameplay-wise I can't even begin to understand how you could think that game is a fighting game. It doesn't have attacks, blocks or throws, there are no moves or combos of any kind, you're literally just jumping/flying around in that game. It's a textbook single screen-platformer if I ever saw one.

Stop putting words in my mouth again. I never said Joust was a fighting game. I said it has a lot in common with games like Smash despite it being old and having very simple mechanics. But this is interesting. So now you're saying that a game must reach a specific level of complexity to become part of the fighting game genre? It MUST have throws and combos? Most genres wouldn't exist without attacks hahaha Where do we draw this line of complexity and features? Are there any games that need to be exiled from the fighting genre for not meeting these requirements? I think we're gonna need some kind of committee to govern the acceptance of games into the fighting genre.

And yes, there are moves in Joust. Jumping on an opponent is a move. Controlling screen space is a skill. Just because the game is very simple doesn't change any of that. Take off the blinders. I even have Joust mixups that will blow your mind no shit.

 

[Kontergurke]

Congratulations, that was my point. If you boil down the games to their most common factor you'd consider them to be of the game genre but yet we don't because in take into account all the other factors.

I still don't understand why people find the idea of smash being called a party fighter so bad. It's still being called a fighter at the end of the day. And like I said this satisfies both camps and thus this whole argument can be put to rest.

Also party is the adjective here. I'm not putting Smash into two separate categories of fighter and party, but just one called party fighter.

While I agree that Smash is definitely not a conventional fighter, I understand why some people might have a problem with the term "party" fighter. As with the term "casual", it has a negative tone in certain circles, implying it's worse than a "proper" game.
Unfortunately, this is something that can't be changed with another genre definition.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Why isn't it a fighting game? You have characters in a ring fighting. Isn't that a fighting game?

There is fighting in the game, so it must be a part of the fighting game genre I guess. You win.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Man, I don't even know where to start in this thread.

What has thou wrought DanteFox..

 

[Kontergurke]

Stop putting words in my mouth again. I never said Joust was a fighting game. I said it has a lot in common with games like Smash despite it being old and having very simple mechanics. But this is interesting. So now you're saying that a game much reach a specific level of complexity to become part of the fighting game genre? It MUST have throws and combos? Most genres wouldn't exist without attacks hahaha Where do we draw this line of complexity and features? Are there any games that need to be exiled from the fighting genre for not meeting these requirements? I think we're gonna need some kind of committee to govern the acceptance of games into the fighting genre.

And yes, there are moves in Joust. Jumping on an opponent is a move. Controlling screen space is a skill. Just because the game is very simple doesn't change any of that. Take off the blinders. I even have Joust mixups that will blow your mind no shit.

Ok, I think I'm getting what you're saying: If Smash Bros, a game that has a lot in common with traditional fighting games, is a fighting game, then every game ever made is also a fighting game.

Is that it? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just honestly trying to understand you. If I don't understand you, I can't argue with you.

 

[Truth101]

This thread is the epitome of stupid.

 

[BGBW]

Are wrestling games considered fighting games or sports games?

This is the problem with genres!

And music is even worse.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

I'm still trying to find and understand his real argument buried under the pile of sarcasm.

There is none.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

How are side-scrolling beat-em-ups similar in gameplay to an arena fighter? I'm not at all getting the comparisons to the beat-em-up genre in this thread. Sure, Nintendo added Adventure mode for the SP which expanded into SSE in Brawl, but there was nothing other than arena fighting in the first game.

I keep hearing, "Buh buh buh, Smash has attacks, and combos, and is on a 2d plane! How isn't it a fighter?" Well, lots of games from various genres have those elements. I can use something else besides beat-em ups as an example if that will make you happy?

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Are wrestling games considered fighting games or sports games?

This is the problem with genres!

And music is even worse.

Party Game isn't a genre I guess. Is Sports Games a genre? Or is each individual sport a genre of its own? Is NBA Jam TE a fighting game? It has pushing, elbow attacks, controlling space is important, and fatigue that works a lot like health.

 

[Professor Beef]

Are wrestling games considered fighting games or sports games?

This is the problem with genres!

And music is even worse.

Sports-Entertainment games, natch.

 

[Infinite]

Congratulations, that was my point. If you boil down the games to their most common factor you'd consider them to be of the game genre but yet we don't because in take into account all the other factors.

So what is your point? Super Turbo and marvel 3 are share core factors but taking account all other factors they are different from each other. Does one of them cease to be a fighting game at this point? What makes a fighter a fighter in your opinion? is a "racing sim" not a racing game? is a "kart" racer not a racing game?

I still don't understand why people find the idea of smash being called a party fighter so bad. It's still being called a fighter at the end of the day. And like I said this satisfies both camps and thus this whole argument can be put to rest.

i don't know what a party fighter is. I don't even think calling it that matters (not to me anyways.) What people are actually upset about is party game invalidates it's competitive value. that has a lot to do with the non smash player mocking the game with that title though

 

[Nocturnowl]

Are wrestling games considered fighting games or sports games?

This is the problem with genres!

The greatest of fighting games!

 

[Kontergurke]

I keep hearing, "Buh buh buh, Smash has attacks, and combos, and is on a 2d plane! How isn't it a fighter?" Well, lots of games from various genres have those elements. I can use something else besides beat-em ups as an example if that will make you happy?

You are saying you can find games from different genres that could be considered fighters.
I say, sure. I would call that genre overlap.

Let's have a thought experiment. We both agree on Street Fighter 2 being a fighting game, correct?
Let's make a new game, exactly like Street Fighter 2, but with randomly spawning items in it. Is it still a fighting game? Item fighter? Action-RPG?
Let's take SF2 and add a 2nd plane to the background. At any time you can jump to the background plane and dodge attacks on the foreground. The opponent can either follow you to the same plane or use projectile attacks if they have them. Remember, everything else is still like SF2. Is it a fighting game still? Or is it a platformer?

You will see that it's really difficult to set a sharp boundary, when a game stops being a fighting game. It's mostly a perception thing. If most people see the new game as essentially still a fighting game, then it probably should still be considered one, no?

 

[rpmurphy]

I keep hearing, "Buh buh buh, Smash has attacks, and combos, and is on a 2d plane! How isn't it a fighter?" Well, lots of games from various genres have those elements. I can use something else besides beat-em ups as an example if that will make you happy?

Ok, since Super Smash Bros. doesn't fall under the genre of beat-em-ups. I would like to see an example of a game where the core game structure is based on the premise of having a roster of characters combat against each other in grounded arenas using a variety of real-world and fictional arts of man-to-man combat, but is not considered an arena fighter.

 

[BGBW]

So what is your point? Super Turbo and marvel 3 are share core factors but taking account all other factors they are different from each other. Does one of them cease to be a fighting game at this point? What makes a fighter a fighter in your opinion? is a "racing sim" not a racing game? is a "kart" racer not a racing game?

My point is that games can be slotted into distinctive genre to point out their differences. Kart racers and racing sims both involves going round a track, but they are clearly different. For one you don't need to worry about gears in Mario Kart.
It's like Mecanno and Lego. They are both construction kit toys but are very different. So much so Lego can also be categorised as a building block toy.

i don't know what a party fighter is. I don't even think calling it that matters (not to me anyways.) What people are actually upset about is party game invalidates it's competitive value. that has a lot to do with the non smash player mocking the game with that title though

So it's boils down to people being worried about what people are calling a toy they are playing with. Oh dear.

Mario Kart came out and gave birth to a kart genre of racing games. What's wrong with Smash giving birth to its own distinctive line of fighting games (with the latest addition being PASBR)? Just like the traditional 2D Street Fighteresque games are considered one family of fighting games, Smash and co can be their own family of fighting games.

If people are so upset about the word "party" (why would you hate parties?) You could call it something like platform fighter.

The main pro about doing this is that people can't argue about it not being a fighter by comparing it to the mould of Street Fighter since "platform" fighters have their own unique ruleset.

 

[Leezard]

If people are so upset about the word "party" (why would you hate parties?) You could call it something like platform fighter.

The main pro about doing this is that people can't argue about it not being a fighter by comparing it to the mould of Street Fighter since "platform" fighters have their own unique ruleset.

This actually seems quite appropriate. Platform fighter distinguishes it from the classical fighters while still being called a fighter. Now that PASBR is joining Smash, it really might be useful to actually call the games something like this.

 

[Pandaman]

How is agreeing on rules and settings a knock against the game as a fighter?

scrub logic. you shouldnt have to enforce artificial constraints to make your game a game.
make enough 'rules' and you could call WoW a 'fighter', but there's no reason anyone should take your rules seriously.

That's hardly any different than agreeing on the timer/number of rounds.

in the sense that no competitive fighters do it, yes.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Kontergurke, I don't think Frank is engaging you in good faith.

 

[Kontergurke]

scrub logic. you shouldnt have to enforce artificial constraints to make your game a game.
make enough 'rules' and you could call WoW a 'fighter', but there's no reason anyone should take your rules seriously.


in the sense that no competitive fighters do it, yes.

If I understand you correctly, you don't consider Smash a fighter because players have to agree in advance which options to set before they start playing?
Did you know that in Soul Calibur, you can set the life bar of your character to infinite? I heard that on most tournaments, this is not done because it would be really boring.

If Street Fighter had an option to turn on random tripping, but Evo decided to not use that option, in your opinion it would cease to be a fighting game?

 

[abstract alien]

Party Fighter can describe any good fighting game, so that really isn't appropriate. Hell, that would make Halo, Unreal Tournament, etc all Party Shooters.

 

[SouthernDragon]

scrub logic. you shouldnt have to enforce artificial constraints to make your game a game.
make enough 'rules' and you could call WoW a 'fighter', but there's no reason anyone should take your rules seriously.


in the sense that no competitive fighters do it, yes.

Is STxT a fighter?

 

[Infinite]

My point is that games can be slotted into distinctive genre to point out their differences. Kart racers and racing sims both involves going round a track, but they are clearly different. For one you don't need to worry about gears in Mario Kart.
It's like Mecanno and Lego. They are both construction kit toys but are very different. So much so Lego can also be categorised as a building block toy.


So it's boils down to people being worried about what people are calling a toy they are playing with. Oh dear.

Mario Kart came out and gave birth to a kart genre of racing games. What's wrong with Smash giving birth to its own distinctive line of fighting games (with the latest addition being PASBR)? Just like the traditional 2D Street Fighteresque games are considered one family of fighting games, Smash and co can be their own family of fighting games.

If people are so upset about the word "party" (why would you hate parties?) You could call it something like platform fighter.

The main pro about doing this is that people can't argue about it not being a fighter by comparing it to the mould of Street Fighter since "platform" fighters have their own unique ruleset.

I don't disagree with you. This discussion is silly and pretty outdated.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Just stare at these for 5 minutes to clear your heads, then think about what you're missing out on by having these retarded arguments day after day...


...

 

[Justin Timberlake]

My view of the FGC has improved a lot after having attended Smash events. Never been around so many junior high kids that haven't taken a shower during their entire summer break lol

It's a party fighter that a hardcore fanbase has decided to cling to. That's all. It's a fun game.

But to suggest a "fighting game" that randomly trips up your character is on the same technical/competitive level as a Street Fighter 3 or Guilty Gear XX is laughable.

As for the question at hand, I would consider Smash Bros. to be a fighting game series. That being said, it's a more casual fighting game and not one that I consider to be competitive on the level of major Capcom/SNK/Arc Systems Works releases.

Smash Bros. is to fighting games as Mario Kart is to racing games, IMO.

It's one of the reasons why I'm fucking done with the community as a whole. The majority of players are a bunch of hypocritical whiny fucks that don't give a shit about expanding the scene at all, and complain when things don't go their way.

Rightfully so. Everything I have ever seen and heard about the Smash community has been terrible. Theres no shock noone wants anything to do with them TBH.

On topic, Smash is a party fighting game to me, I don't see it as competitive.

Exactly why it isn't a fighting game. I'm sorry. Holding A and a direction to ring out people after their health hits 200% isn't a fighter. Add in the randomity of items and it's basically a party game. Same with the Sony variation before someone uses that "OMG YOU JUST HATE NINTENDO" argument.

They're both intended for quick pick-up-and-play button mashing elements of five minute sessions.

No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

Two players. Move lists that aren't simple button mashing (of course, then we can argue if P4U is a fighter, but it is because while it has mashy AAAAAAAAA auto-combos there's other move sets to use and auto-combo is a crutch). No randomize in stages (sup item drops), no having to dash around to platform to stay on the stage to continue to "fight" (Sup Pokemon Parade/Celedon City?)

Basically fighters are where both players have an even chance with no randomity involved. And if your game has to have players stop what they're doing to platform to stay in a match, it isn't a fighter all IMO of course. Because we could say "well, button mashy move lists are in DOA" and while, yeah there's "PP->PK" basic combos and the like the parry system there is deeper than Smash's "fighting" engine.

The real reason Smashers have to deal with this is because they are the furries of the FGC (no offense to furries intended). This means that it's cool to shit on Smash and its fans. Personally, I think the game is dull, but I have no problem with it, it's no worse then SFxTK.

heeeeyyoooooo


...

...

...

 

[Skilletor]

Just stare at these for 5 minutes to clear your heads, then think about what you're missing out on by having these retarded arguments day after day...


[/QUOTE] wtf @ nsfw image, dude.

 

[abstract alien]

LOL

 

[jett]

really, an account suicide over this?

 

[SouthernDragon]

Wow, seriously?

 

[Grakl]

ah hahahahahahaha

 

[Lulubop]

Nice knowing ya.

Amazing tits as well.

 

[Seraphinianus]

really, an account suicide over this?

nooo, just in general. jesus, so self-centered.

5 minutes ridin!

 

[abstract alien]

Is this what goes down at...parties!?

 

[Justin Timberlake]

oh man am i happy i turn images off while at work.

That could have been disastrous.

 

[Anth0ny]

WE HAVE A PARTY

 

[LProtag]

Wow.

Serious business PARTIES.

 

[MisterHero]

Sports-Entertainment games, natch.

Action Soap Opera Games

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

You are saying you can find games from different genres that could be considered fighters.
I say, sure. I would call that genre overlap.

I am not saying that at all. Those games were an example of games that could be considered fighters going by the ridiculous comments made in this thread.

Let's have a thought experiment. We both agree on Street Fighter 2 being a fighting game, correct?

Sure.

Let's make a new game, exactly like Street Fighter 2, but with randomly spawning items in it. Is it still a fighting game? Item fighter? Action-RPG?

I don't remember ever saying if a fighter had items it was no longer a fighter... unless I'm forgetting something?

Let's take SF2 and add a 2nd plane to the background. At any time you can jump to the background plane and dodge attacks on the foreground. The opponent can either follow you to the same plane or use projectile attacks if they have them. Remember, everything else is still like SF2. Is it a fighting game still? Or is it a platformer?

I don't remember making this argument either. If fighters had to exist on a single 2D plane I guess a bunch of 2D and 3D games have to be exiled from the genre.

You will see that it's really difficult to set a sharp boundary, when a game stops being a fighting game. It's mostly a perception thing. If most people see the new game as essentially still a fighting game, then it probably should still be considered one, no?

It's definitely difficult to set a boundary when a bunch of posters in this thread assume having a 2d plane, fighting, and combos automatically makes any game of any genre a fighting game.

 

[Chet Rippo]

Nice knowing ya.

Amazing tits as well.

What?! Damn, curse my luck.