They only took in a very small number of submission to be reviewed just for the RP, and closed submissions. If they open it up again they'll still have to be reviewed. They don't want to have too many variables before release.
Windows 8 Release Preview
- Thread starter celebi23
- Start date
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They only took in a very small number of submission to be reviewed just for the RP, and closed submissions. If they open it up again they'll still have to be reviewed. They don't want to have too many variables before release.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Well this is what the Start screen is good for. If you have a bunch of dev tools you use but not often, you simply make a group for the tiles.
As for scanning for stuff, I find having everything visible is much faster, it's a simple scroll of the mouse wheel to go through your whole list. In my other examples I was giving I've had more than a few occasions where I needed a program that I might use once every few months but I couldn't remember the name of it or the company name. So now I'm having to open each folder in my Start menu for every company I don't recognize trying to find the damned program. It takes forever when you have a lot of small utilities installed. They tend to build up over time as you download small apps for various niche circumstances.
Marty Chinn
Member
But the dev tools associate to different things. I don't want a group called dev tools that has them all. I want them sorted like they are currently installed and setup in the current Start Menu. I deal with a lot of tools and sdks across different platforms. So there can be a lot of stuff in my Start Menu which leads to the second point...
I don't want all that noise and clutter to look for what I'm looking for. The nice point about the current Start Menu is everything is collapsed so you see only the groups and then you expand the group you're more interested in. Having all that noise by having everything expanded by default is not good IMO. It's like trying to find a file in your directory structure and you have everything expanded. That's not a good paradigm so I don't buy that it's faster to do so. It might be ok on a smaller set, but the bigger the set, the worse it gets. I'm not talking not knowing exactly what I'm looking for so I have to expand every folder to see what's inside; I'm talking about not having the name off the top of my head but I know what I'm looking for so as soon as I see it, I recognize it and can go down that path. For example, I know my PS3 SDK tools are either going to be under Sony, SCEA, SCN, PS3, or PlayStation.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
It's not noise if you know what you're looking for. Folders are just as "noisy", you're just used to them. It's a whole heap of clutter in a small space. You need to scroll down to find your folder, twirl open then folder, possibly another, and another, then click your item. This isn't fast or efficient.
No one said you have to put all your dev tools in one group, make as many groups as you want. That's what semantic zoom is for:
Marty Chinn
Member
It's not noise if you know what you're looking for. Folders are just as "noisy", you're just used to them. It's a whole heap of clutter in a small space. You need to scroll down to find your folder, twirl open then folder, possibly another, and another, then click your item. This isn't fast or efficient.
No one said you have to put all your dev tools in one group, make as many groups as you want. That's what semantic zoom is for:
But folders really are no different than the concept of groups. You're just changing the name which is really just semantics at that point. By having all groups opened makes it more cluttered. There's no two ways about that. It is by far quicker to see the group you want if everything is not expanded, especially if you're dealing with a lot of groups. Now the other thing you haven't seem to be able to point out is the fact that it doesn't seem like you can have subgroups. That can be problematic in itself, so maybe I was wrong. Groups aren't as good as folders because they're far more limited. I think everything expanded by default is quicker for fewer items, but it's not quicker and more cluttered the larger data set gets.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
So you can navigate through 100 folders in your Start menu faster than having 2 click access to any app you have installed at the same time? I highly doubt that.
Maybe Microsoft can do a Smoked by Windows 8 contest?
Marty Chinn
Member
I can look around 100 folders/groups faster than I can look through 1000 icons. How do I know? Because I can do this right now in Windows 7 and set the Start Menu to be fully expanded. It's not easier to look through. I also have it under Perforce or Visual Studio when looking through source files or depot data files. Having everything expanded is not easier to look through.
You still are avoiding sub groups. Do they not exist in Windows 8's Start Menu?
should? yes. does it? no.
Real men have a balanced binary tree for a folder hierarchy. Big O of logbaby.
If you put it in one big list you don't have to waste time traversing the tree!
That looks awful.
The All Programs under Start Menu in Win7/Vista gets to be a clusterfuck, but I don't see how you can call this an improvement.
This is a pretty clean machine. Which one of those groups is DevStudio 2012 and which 2010? Lots of truncated names.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
I'm not avoiding it, they serve no purpose in the current workflow. What benefit do they serve? You're just adding an extra step. If you're that insistent on having all your shortcuts sorted into folders just pin C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs to your favorites and launch stuff from there.
That looks awful.
The All Programs under Start Menu in Win7/Vista gets to be a clusterfuck, but I don't see how you can call this an improvement.
This is a pretty clean machine. Which one of those groups is DevStudio 2012 and which 2010? Lots of truncated names.
Did I say it was beautiful? Are you claiming the Start menu is beautiful design?
You're not going to always launch stuff from the All Apps screen, stop being obtuse. We were talking about a situation where you need to find something you can't remember the name of. For anything you use on a semi-regular basis you'll have it pinned to the regular Start screen for easy access. Actually, I have everything pinned except superfluous stuff that gets puts into the start menu that you almost never use like registration, uninstall etc.
The semantic zoom mode is only there if you have a very long list but as I've said with 60-80 tiles visible without scrolling, on top of what you should already have pinned to your taskbar, I think you're rarely going to see that screen.
Plus it's still just as fast to hit the windows key > start typing > press enter just as you could in Win 7.
Steelyuhas
Member
Anything that I don't have pinned to the start screen, I'm just going to hit start and type it in. I haven't used the all apps screen to launch apps. I've only looked at it a couple of times to check if something was installed on my machine.
Marty Chinn
Member
They serve no purpose? Clearly you're not dealing with a more complicated setup so maybe this discussion is beyond what you're used to. Here's a prime example of how sub groups work. I have my Microsoft Xbox 360 XDK installed which creates a folder/group called Microsoft Xbox 360 XDK. Inside there it'll setup a folder/sub group for Video, Networking, Sound, Profile, Documentation, etc which will have various tools and stuff in each of the sub folders/groups. You honestly can't see how organizing a big complicated XDK into smaller sub groups within the group to make things easier to find rather than it all being at one flat hierarchy? Seriously? Do you not understand how organizing things works?
Heck, now it's becoming more clear. The fact that you think that cluttered list is easy to locate something proves you just don't get it. How is having one giant list like that easier than filtering down and only expanding what you need? You can do it now in Windows 7, you can do it in most programs with a directory tree in there, you can do it in a Microsoft Visual Studio project setup with a bunch of source code, you can do it in Perforce not only in the depot tree, but also listing what's in all your changelists. Having everything expanded is simply not easier when you have a lot going on and there are plenty of examples were you can try it now to prove that point.
This is half of what's wrong with the start screen. It blocks the things you need to see and replaces it with things you don't. I have absolutely no need to see 30 programs when I only use maybe 5 or 6 on a regular basis.
More importantly, to show those 30 programs, they hide the things I was looking at. As long as I have my work in front of me, I remember exactly what I was doing. Hide the reason why I started looking for a new program and I may forget. Or at least I'll remember more slowly. The start screen is the equivalent of forcing you to look in another room to find the program you wanted. And walking through doorways makes you forget.
To show why I like the Windows 7 start menu, I'll go through my usage. It's pretty straight forward. The most commonly used programs of mine are a click away, and the least commonly used ones only require a couple more.
1. Context: This is a normal look for my desktop if I'm working on something.
2. Common Tasks: I need to look something up. Let's open a new chrome. It's right there because I'm constantly opening and closing new windows.
2B. Common Tasks are Fast and Easy: I can look up my information with ease. This way still works unchanged in Windows 8. (btw, if I want to continue to reference back to it while I do my work, I move it to the second monitor. If not, I just close it.)
3. Less Common: I might access any of the first 5 programs a few times each session. They're slightly out of the way, because I don't want to clutter up my taskbar with programs I'm not constantly using. But two clicks and I'm in my music. It's fast, and at all times I can see exactly why I opened the menu in the first place. As I looked at that background, I'd remember "I wanted to get into the coding zone."
4. Rare: I might access a program like this once a day. I don't remember what the backup utility is called or where it is, and I don't care. Typing out 6 characters is faster than looking for it, and it's not worth keeping junk like that in my start menu when I'll almost never use it.
The Windows 7 interface is VERY efficient. Windows 8 takes two steps back by (1) making the "less common" programs harder to find in a big screen, and (2) hiding the reason why you wanted to open a new program in the first place.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
How many programs are you running on a regular basis on all those sub-folders? I understand organization, but you can organize tiles without requiring extra clicks to get to sub-folders.
You claim I don't get it yet you've never addressed my original point that I'm talking about having to find something where you don't know which folder it's in in your start menu because it's made by some small company that you'll never remember the name of. In that case having a visual display of ALL your apps is faster than having to randomly twirl down a dozen folders until you find what you were looking for.
I would argue that you're simply efficient at using it.
What's that supposed to mean? I've been telling you on the last page already, that's the way people who really use the desktop environment, use the start menu.
The all programs thing is the only really different feature that you've mentioned, and it seems worse to me than just wading through the all programs folder style list. At least nothing is getting truncated and you don't get everything blasted at your face at once. I can see a use for it though, but it's not something that couldn't easily be implemented in the non-metro start menu.
Posted this in the stupid question thread, but this might be the better place to post this, at the very least you can all get a laugh out of it:
I can do a bootrec fix, but will that be enough? As far as I know, it has only overwritten the files on the SysReserved partition.
FUCK I'm pissed off. I'm installing Windows 8 RP to an external hd with Windows To Go. It was assigned drive letter G.
I prepped the exHD via diskpart in cmd. Then i go on to install the WinToGo Win8 on g: via cmd. After 10seconds it says - no more free space available.
The drive has 80GB free, I just formatted it. So I go to G: in cmd. What do I see?
Volume in dive G is System Reserved
WTF
CMD (Command Prompt) set C's System Reserved partition as drive letter G, and gave it preference over the drive actually assigned as G! Now it looks like this:
The System Reserved partition is ruined, ffffffuuuuuuck. Anyone know how I can recover or reset the (files in this) partition, so I can safely reboot?
I can do a bootrec fix, but will that be enough? As far as I know, it has only overwritten the files on the SysReserved partition.
Now you've done it. This is my BIGGEST issue with Win8 (as I usually stay in the Desktop area anyway, and I really like the new Copy File user interface). On Win7 I press the Windows key to launch the start menu, and automatically be in the search box on the start menu. I could then begin typing to search through everything at once. If i typed enough letters to correctly identify the file/setting/software I wanted to open it would become the default #1 result and I would hammer the enter key to launch it.
On Win8 I press windows key and begin typing, and I have to then press the arrow key up or down depending on what it is (Ap/Setting/File) that I'm looking for. Then I have to use my mouse to select the file/setting/ap. This is horrible and turned a 2 second task in Win7 into something much longer and cumbersome.
What's happened to me using the traditional Windows Vista/7 start menu is that on different computers, if I just start typing the few characters of a program/setting that I think exists, often it launches something different from what I wanted.
The new start menu makes that better since now I can search with filters, so the experience is consistent. You press Windows Key only for programs, Windows Key + W for system settings, and Windows Key + F for files. You can use the arrow keys then to select which setting you want or hit enter. I don't use the mouse for anything.
Far too often I type what I think I wanted in the old start menu, and it launches a program, not the setting that I wanted. Thus I am forced to memorize a launcher menu (e.g. appwiz.cpl)
You are the one being obtuse. Sure, you don't always go into All Programs, and I already admit it is a mess in Win7, but to dump everything in one list is even less useful.
I can appreciate this, but I like just one key to do it all.
The list filters out as you type just like it did in the old version.
Having the list dump everything is something like you do when you want to find something quickly.
I understand, we are talking about drilling down the all programs tree, not searching. At least that is what I am discussing.
Wouldn't you be looking for a program if you go through the all programs tree anyway?
If you type in the name of the root application it doesn't list all the sub folders and files.
Like if I wanted to start the DevStudio 2010 version of Spy++. If I type in Spy I get all the versions with no distinction of what folder it is in. If I type 2010 it isn't listed at all. In Win7 I can scroll to the DevStudio 2010 folder, open it and Spy++ is right there. In Metro, I have to scroll through two pages of a grid, visually search hundreds of items to find the right group. To make it even more efficient, you have to hover over the title to see which group is 2010 vs 2012.
Did you lose your old Win7 partition, or the Win8 install?
Didn't lose a partition. The imagex.exe was pointed to G:, which was my System Reserved partition for Windows 7. The 100mb one, which holds bootmgr etc. It dumped the installation in there untill it filled up the 100mb. Tried to fix it but now bootmgr was messed up, deleted that, trying to fix it now in Win7 startup repair and CMD, but rebuildbcd says "element not found" and bcdboot has a failure when attempting to copy boot files. :/
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
It simply means that people have gotten used to using it over the past however many years and it's become second nature but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a better interface. There may be some situations, like Marty Chinn's, where there is no analog in the Metro start screen for the way he launches his programs but that doesn't mean it's a worse system overall.
I liken it back to when I transitioned from DOS to Windows. There were a lot of things I felt were much easier and faster to do in DOS because I was fast and efficient with it but now I would never want to go back to that system. I still use DOS for some stuff though.
Here is my basic Win8 desktop workflow:
- I have about 20 programs pinned to my taskbar, that covers most of the programs I use on a daily/weekly basis.
- I have a further 50 or so programs and Metro apps pinned to the Start screen, this covers most of the rest of the apps I might use during the week, but I might not.
- If I need something that isn't pinned I hit windows and type the name.
- If I don't remember the name I use All Apps.
Iced_Eagle
Member
I take same amount of time to find something generally compared to Win7. I would suggest using the keyboard shortcuts.
Win+Q = apps
Win+W = settings
Win+F = files
If you haven't already seen this
From
http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itproinstall/thread/7791044e-db7f-4144-a96c-945299811f58/
Sorry, I learned my lesson years ago, don't trust beta OSs to multi-boot nicely, swap drives.
Done it, don't work. bcdboot has a failure when attempting to copy boot files, bootrec /rebuildbc has element not found, sf scannow has a pending system repair which i cannot for the heavens of me get rid of.
I'm tempted to just copy the system reserved contents of my laptop to my pc and see what happens....
So the partition is active and bootable. Damn. You may try checking it out in qparted and see if anything looks off about the partitions (both system and boot).
I don't think you'll have anything to lose trying that. I think you'll need to use the Windows repair to get it working, but maybe that will get it to the point the repair tools work properly.
Yeah, did that too. Weird thing about gparted is, it's not finding any partition on the drive. Win7 & 8 startup disks find it normally, so I'm at a loss as to why gparted won't show the partitions. Maybe because it's NTFS? Hm, but the other drive is NTFS as well, and it shows that one properly. Ugh. It shows it as unallocated btw.
Marty Chinn
Member
That's the thing, I don't run them frequently. I run the on occasion or a situation basis. It's usually when I encounter a problem or need to do something specific to the task. It would make no sense to pin them, but it makes absolute sense to go and find what I need or at least see if there is something that exists to address what I need. I don't see how you group all the XDK dev tools together if you can't have sub groups and you have a simple two level hierarchy. It just doesn't work. Imagine if you could only organize your file structure to be one level deep, it would suck. Clearly you've never done serious work with tools and development.
I don't know it off the top of my head, but it's more something that I'll recognize when I see it. When you work with a lot of development tools from different companies, you often remember the main tool you're working with but maybe not off the top of your head which company makes it. Simply looking at the existing start menu would usually have that company listed and I would say there, that's the group I need to be looking in. For example, I use something called ProDG for PS3 development and there are tools associated like SN Tuner, SN-DBS, etc. I'll remember ProDG, but not off the top of my head remember that SN Systems makes that. So I'll pull up the Start Menu, see SN Systems and then navigate to that to find the tool I'm looking for. It's not about drilling down into each folder figuring out which company you're looking for. It's about not knowing it off the top of your head but seeing it and going to it.
The problem with the new Start Menu is you either need to know exactly what you want to search for it, or you have to wade through a lot of crap that's cluttered in order to find it. There's no middle ground which the current Start Menu offers. I think the problem with you is, you don't have to deal with having to work with a lot of different apps infrequently in a work professional environment. Have you noticed what me, Jobiensis, and Slavik have in common? We work with development.
The new start screen is faster and more efficient for 99% of users - why don't you make a folder, put the shortcuts you want in there and be done with it? You could even make TWO folders. You could even pin the shortcut folder to the start screen!
I get you don't know exact names of odd programs, everyone has that occasionally I am sure, but there's easy workarounds, which are actually more like exactly how it is now anyway, it's not like you making a shortcut folder structure and pinning that is any different than the current start menu now.
Marty Chinn
Member
But the thing is, I don't think this is acceptable to 99% of the users either. It seems quite cluttered to have everything expanded and only allowing one level deep. I also don't want to have to do all this maintenance on everything I install because they decided to take away functional navigation in the Start Menu. That's time taken away on my part.
It's quite off putting and even overwhelming to someone who isn't as computer savvy. I think there needs to be a middle ground that doesn't show you everything at once.
You don't have to make this folder structure now, you are basically telling us to recreate the start menu structure on the desktop.
I guess the answer is to add a shortcut to
C:\Users\yourusername\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
on the Desktop.
But the Start Menu was much more elegant, even if it was a mess.
I presume you've already done bootrec /fixboot and bootrec /fixmbr
Bolded is probably your problem, looks like it is time to get a disk editor out.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
See, this is where we're in fundamental disagreement. You don't think it makes sense to pin them because you're thinking about the situation as it exists currently in Windows 7.
With the Start screen there is no reason NOT to pin them. Make as many groups as you want.
XBOX SDK Tools | PS3 Tools | Audio | Graphics | ETC
Make each into sub categories stacked next to each other. There is no limit as far as I know.
These groups might be off your screen but who cares if you're not seeing them unless you need them? The screen scrolls from left to right, when you need those tools it's a simple flick of the mouse wheel to scroll over and click the tile or use the semantic zoom. This is much faster than having to twirl down folders in the Start menu.
Marty Chinn
Member
Wait your solution is to clutter up my taskbar? My taskbar is fairly full as is since I have a lot of things open (16 at this very moment) and now you're saying I should take up space by pinnning a ton of stuff as well? Seriously? That's what the whole point of the start menu was for to begin with. So I don't waste all that space for things I don't have very often but can need on a whim.
I also don't see how it's any faster to have to wade through all that clutter where as selecting a group to expand so I can go one or two deep is simply looking for the group I want and then click. I'd spend way more time looking through the clutter than making two clicks to open a group and sub group.
Again, I don't think you've ever worked in a productive environment using all sorts of tools which is why you don't seem to get it.
Yeah, fixboot is giving me 'element not found', as is rebuildbcd.
Uf, it's just so insane that windows would allow some program to completely overwrite the system reserved partition. Automatically assigning it a drive letter in the prompt even.. I mean what the fuck. Permissions are all fucked now as well, I think that trustedinstaller may have taken ownership in the process.
Oooooh yessss baby! PRAISE THE LORD BABY JESUS HALLELUJA!
Was in the process of making my own BCD, still wasn't working, errors left and right. Then I booted back to Win8 after I saw that EasyBCD had some nice features, downloaded it, ran it, pointed it to my Win7 partition, had it create a BCD file and rebuild it etc.. Rebooted... done! It's fixed! I can say bye to my last 6 hours, but that program did what commandline don't!
Sorry for mucking up the thread.
I have Win8 working on an external (eSata) HD now by the way. I think it's supposed to boot maybe a bit faster, but it's still fast I think. It's faster than my native Win7 install.
Was in the process of making my own BCD, still wasn't working, errors left and right. Then I booted back to Win8 after I saw that EasyBCD had some nice features, downloaded it, ran it, pointed it to my Win7 partition, had it create a BCD file and rebuild it etc.. Rebooted... done! It's fixed! I can say bye to my last 6 hours, but that program did what commandline don't!
Sorry for mucking up the thread.
I have Win8 working on an external (eSata) HD now by the way. I think it's supposed to boot maybe a bit faster, but it's still fast I think. It's faster than my native Win7 install.
Really though, that's all the start menu actually was, a sort of mini explorer window to a certain directory tree. I am not say the All Apps screen is good, it sucks - but be aware you can zoom it out with the little minus sign in the corner and it's just sorted alphabetically by letter. (Yes, actually clicking on a folder in this view just brings you back to the regular screen which needs to be changed, maybe have it expand just the one you clicked? I am sure they'll change things in this regard.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Pinning to the Metro Start screen, this whole discussion has been in regards to the new Start screen vs the Start menu. I explained my workflow in a previous post on this page.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I decided to install WIn 8 Preview, and it went well...
However, I had been using a graphical login and now several functions are asking for my (long forgotten) text password. Any ideas? Googling suggests several solutions none of which I seem to be able to get to work.
However, I had been using a graphical login and now several functions are asking for my (long forgotten) text password. Any ideas? Googling suggests several solutions none of which I seem to be able to get to work.
You have used a local account and not a Microsoft account / Windows Live ID? For Microsoft accounts there is of course the possibility to go on Hotmail.com and have it sent to you via the 'forgot password' function. I don't know what to do in case of a local password.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
It's local.
I'm trying some crackign software now, and if this doesn't do it I'll reinstall fresh (ugh).
I'm trying some crackign software now, and if this doesn't do it I'll reinstall fresh (ugh).
I've used Trinity Rescue Kit (it's free and open-source) to reset Windows 7 passwords. It might work with Windows 8.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'll try that as a backup. Luckily, it looks like the cracker is working-- it's already guessed my non-admin account password.
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