-Pyromaniac-
Member
if there is something we've learned about the leaders of the league of shadows is that they are all too arrogant for their own good
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CrocMother
Banned
The plan in Batman Begins was to release a nerve gas that would make everyone tear each other apart.
That's how the league of shadows rolls.
Ra's and his daughter Talia are essentially James Bond villains.
Bane and Talia were exiled members of the league of shadows, which is why they weren't following Ra's plan to the letter, they wanted bruce to suffer for Ra's death.
Personally I think it helps my enjoyment of the product. Good t.v./movies can explain away a nuke that isn't bizaare or acts as if we don't know the fallout of nuclear war.
No, Ra's goal was not to make Batman suffer. Talia was all about that. Ra's only wanted to destroy Gotham because it was too far gone. If he had seen Batman clean it up as well as he did, he might have reconsidered. Ra's was an extremist, but he wasn't insane.
But Talia? She wanted vengence. She wanted to watch Gotham burn and to make Bruce watch for what he did. Gotham fell back into decadence only because she forced it to when it was enjoying a golden age. She is not of the League of Shadows philosophy proper. For her, this is all about revenge.
triplestation
Member
It's like someone shot her with a tranquilizer dart.
So a nuke is now more over the top than a microwave emitter?
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Talia was enacting personal vengeance on Bruce.
brandonh83
Banned
It just felt too easy. Oh, we can bring in a nuclear bomb so we can have an illusion of intensity thanks to a countdown, villain motives, chase scene motives, and a way to make it look like Bruce apparently died and since we couldn't see what happened so far away from the shot, it's easy to explain that he got out of it by ejecting before the blast.
The problem I have with all of this is that Nolan is usually better than that. Much better, much more creative. I don't hate nuclear bomb plots, I simply expected better and more interesting things from the finale to such a great series.
In some ways. The microwave emitter is a bit more comical though.
Halcyon
Member
Because Bruce flat out says he made batman to be a symbol and that anybody could be batman. He fixed the bat symbol because he knew batman would.live on through Blake. Its very much batman beyond-like.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
It would completely undercut Bruce's happy ending, I think. The whole point of showing him at the end was to suggest that he and Selina had their "clean slate" and he was living again. Coming back to be Batman again negates the ending entirely.
And what would be actual intensity? I never bought countdowns in any movie, so I get that, but villain motivations are cheap shit now? What?
There's so much you can do with a PG-13 rating.
Harvey Dent's face was the most graphic element out of the entire trilogy.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I thought this as well. She wasn't acting as an agent of the League of Shadows so much as taking revenge out on Batman. It didn't play well though. I would've liked it better if I felt any real connection between Talia and Raz to make us understand why she'd be so pissed about his death besides "He's my father and I loved him"
The ending of Batman Begins on the train and the entire hostage scene of The Dark Knight near the end do intesnity much better. You're practically on your seat hoping Batman wraps shit up in time.
demosthenes
Member
Bane is NOT Ras. Bane wanted to create hope and then crush it. Had this been Ras he would have just blown it.
brandonh83
Banned
Look, I didn't hate the movie. I found the first two acts to be very good and enjoyable. I loved the atmosphere that the hermit Bruce subplot brought about, I loved Selina, I thought Blake was cool, I thought Gordon got the best material in this movie as did Alfred. I thought some of the earlier action scenes and Bane vs. Batman in the sewers to be pretty fucking awesome.
But then so many things just started coming at me at the same time that I really didn't like, so it made me leave the theater with a very bad impression. I will say that something similar happened with the second movie, and while I've warmed up to that (I still hate the boats and the SWAT team cell phone junk) the problems I had with TDK have zilch on the things I have problems with here.
Comparing TDKR to other movies... it's a really good movie, my issues aside. It's also a devastatingly disappointing one.
Yes. Stealing nuke to blow something up = so many villain plots across the years. For writers and a director that is held in such high regard for going against the norm, you can absolutely bet that I thought it was cheap shit.
But then so many things just started coming at me at the same time that I really didn't like, so it made me leave the theater with a very bad impression. I will say that something similar happened with the second movie, and while I've warmed up to that (I still hate the boats and the SWAT team cell phone junk) the problems I had with TDK have zilch on the things I have problems with here.
Comparing TDKR to other movies... it's a really good movie, my issues aside. It's also a devastatingly disappointing one.
Yes. Stealing nuke to blow something up = so many villain plots across the years. For writers and a director that is held in such high regard for going against the norm, you can absolutely bet that I thought it was cheap shit.
Considering people were trying to say the device was an EARTHQUAKE MACHINE during production, a Nuke is probably the best idea ever right now.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
I'm kind of lost on what Bruce was thinking at the end. The movie seems to conclude that the Batman is an unrealistic platform - that even Bruce Wayne isn't enough to satiate the demands of the job, that even when he deals with it, he needs a person like Catwoman to actually finish the job by killing. At the end, Bruce drops the cowl and leaves it in the hands of another person who comes from broken beginnings, who has unrealistic expectations of fighting crime because of his desire to set things right where the institutions fail.
The Batman symbol is left in shambles at the end of the movie. It concludes Bruce's story, but it's one where the Batman itself is a defeated cause.
I wouldn't mind this conclusion, if the movie was actually aware of it. But it's not.
What's really odd is how they establish that Ra's was a terrible father, but don't explain why Talia cares so much about his death when he left her and her mother and was rarely involved in her life.
She didn't. That's the problem, she had a very strained relationship with her father. With him dead, she could now never get the chance to connect with him, however. The girl went through a hellish childhood and now her one and only family has been taken away, even if she may have had problems with him. It's nor hard to imagine that she would want blood with the environment she was raised in.
Messofanego
Banned
How else would you destroy all of Gotham in one go?
An earthquake machine!
Pour cement over the whole city
Vincent Alexander
Member
Let me rephrase mine then. I would've liked it better if I felt any connection between Tali and Raz---negative or positive. Strained or not. It seemed like a blank slate they only touch on once in the film, and for much too short of time.
A machine to block the sun
Its an island. Sink it.
I have no idea where you got any of that. BB and TDK was about testing his killing code, but not TDKR. He was secure in keeping it. The problem with batman is that he never wanted to do it forever. As far back as TDK, he wanted out so he could spend his life with Rachel. But then she died, and Batman was not needed, so he had nothing to do. His arc was about him learning to move past rachel, reconnect with his friends, and live his life.
I have concerns about Blake taking up the symbol, but Bruce himself doesn't struggle with it because it's unrealistic. He struggles with it because he doesn't want to do it.
Too old for this shit!
rocksolidaudio
Member
Thanks for the answers dudes!
brandonh83
Banned
You couldn't, but that's my problem in general, I don't see why they had to resort to villains that just wanted to blow up Gotham. That's super boring.
When the blu-ray comes out, I hope someone adds that jazz sax to Bane when he's slumped over in pain at the end.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
As someone noted a few posts up, I am totally willing to forgive the cliche of the atomic bomb scenario if it's Nolan directly referencing the Adam West Batman movie, of all things. And I really think it is! Which is hilarious, and amazing.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
When you think about it...the "nuke the city" plan is completely out of line with the league's methods. They're supposed to be working in the, hah, shadows. IIRC they're setting up Crane as a fall guy in BB. In TDKR Bane just marches into the city and says "yeah, I'm going to nuke everyone"
-Pyromaniac-
Member
you're really reaching with your complaints, you started narrow and then managed to work your way all the way to now the villains from the beginning of the series being a bad choice
demosthenes
Member
Yes. That's how the army guys got in. They were dressed as supply delivery trucks.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Young Bruce would have died from the fall into the well.
Now that we've seen the movie....how much shit did ol' Roger spoil? :lol
Ok, that's what I thought.
cover it in eternal winta!
brandonh83
Banned
I'm actually excited for the Blu-ray. I think once my disdain for the story directions taken at the end wears off and I cool down about that disappointment, my opinion of the movie can only go up. I have no idea how far it can go up, as there were plenty of things still that I disliked that won't just magically go away, but I can see my opinion improving overall as time passes.
I don't think I'll ever like it as much as the first two, but perhaps I can one day find a bit more peace in it. Also, with the Blu-ray I can throw some subtitles on and finally figure out what Bane was saying half the time.
Messofanego
Banned
It's the ending of a trilogy, you need the stakes to be high. Do you want something like Ang Lee's Hulk?
They're characterization isn't any more important than the characterization of parents. In BB, it's developed slightly, then they die 10 minutes into the movie. They were good people, he loved them, and he was traumatized by their deaths, that's all you need to know. You spent a good portion of BB getting to know Ra's, you spend a good portion getting to know Talia (though you don' know it's her), then you get some dialogue explaining their relationship. They didn't leave it blank, they just told us about it instead of showing it, which is fine. You don't really need to care about their connection, just know that Ra's death motivated her the same way Bruce's parents motivated him.
I just find it funny that a lot of your complaints can easily go to Begins or TDK, and probably more so.
When you started saying a nuke is more comical than a microwave emitter, come on now?
They specifically mention the bomb is a neutron bomb. A 1 kiloton neutron bomb would radiate 2 miles, give or take. Unless I'm mistaken, the word "megaton" was used in the movie. That means everybody in Gotham is going to have a nice tan.
Maybe the whole city hid in refrigerators?
Neffarias_Bredd
Member
Can someone whose favorite movie of the trilogy is Batman Begins explain to me what they liked so much about it, or why they liked it more than TDK and TDKR? I love the movie, but I feel like it gets far too much love here
That Bruce goes to the same prison that Bane went towards as a child. THe final fight between Bane and Batman is a one and one brawl (he thought it was lame). Banes plan was to destroy gotham using a newly modified nuclear weapon.
"As Robin enters the batcave eager to take up the mantle..."
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