Battle of the ludicrous patent claims: Apple vs Samsung vs Apple

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Zeppu said:
Heh, true. XP below, using both single and double notes. The 16 color icon suggests it's been used since '98 or '95.

U9M22.png




Yeah but lightning bolts aren't universal symbols for music. Notes are. And when you think CD you think audio CD. Seriously are you arguing against skeuomorphism?



What does that even mean?
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I don't even know.
 
I'm just gonna leave this right here:

Samsung’s 2010 Report Says its Galaxy Would Be Better If it Were Just More Like the iPhone

Authored by Samsung’s product engineering team, the document evaluates everything from the home screen to the browser to the built in apps on both devices. In each case, it comes up with a recommendation on what Samsung should do going forward and in most cases its answer is simple: Make it work more like the iPhone.
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http://allthingsd.com/20120807/sams...er-if-it-were-more-like-the-iphone/?mod=tweet
 
Kare seems like she was useless or a wash. This 132-page document is pretty interesting.

Edit: Lots of interesting stuff, but I LOLed at this (maybe its just me). I guess they were very thorough:

mMl2V.png
 
numble said:
Kare seems like she was useless or a wash. This 132-page document is pretty interesting.

Edit: Lots of interesting stuff, but I LOLed at this (maybe its just me). I guess they were very thorough:

mMl2V.png
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Samsung run by the Bluth family confirmed - "I think we've made a terrible mistake . . ."

Of course Samsung has infringed upon Apple trade dress. This document is a road map for copying Apple.
 
JCreasy said:
I'm just gonna leave this right here:

Samsung’s 2010 Report Says its Galaxy Would Be Better If it Were Just More Like the iPhone



http://allthingsd.com/20120807/sams...er-if-it-were-more-like-the-iphone/?mod=tweet
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Someone with experience with both devices will have to answer this one for me (I owned neither). Was the S2 more or less similar to the iPhone than the S1?

Vyer said:
You mean like Samsung
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Samsung is using screenshots of their phones on the App Drawer rather than the Home Screen in comparison shots?
 
I'm more interested in the FRAND stuff, and think the trade dress stuff is looking 50/50 at this point, but here are some gems from the Samsung document:

OG2Eg.png

A lot of people don't even like this on iOS.

G1gMJ.png

Very thorough.
 
numble said:
I'm more interested in the FRAND stuff, and think the trade dress stuff is 50/50, but here are some gems from the Samsung document:

OG2Eg.png

A lot of people don't even like this on iOS.
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Hahaha thankfully they didn't (read couldn't - since they can't modify the store) take their own advice there. I think the way Google does this is far superior to the old IOS method. Who needs to check their download status immediately anyway? In Android the downloading icon pops up in the notification bar, thats evidence its downloading. If I need to see how much has downloaded I'll just pull down the notification pane.
 
saunderez said:
Hahaha thankfully they didn't (read couldn't) take their own advice there. I think the way Google does this is far superior to the old IOS method. Who needs to check their download status immediately anyway? In Android the downloading icon pops up in the notification bar, thats evidence its downloading. If I need to see how much has downloaded I'll just pull down the notification pane.
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I'll again ask if the S2 was more similar to the iPhone than the S1?

I'll also add the reason I ask this question is that the document alone doesn't seem out of the ordinary. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a post mortem report. The report's authors were tasked with the assignment of comparing S1 features to their largest competitor and evaluating shortcomings and possible improvements.

If the S2 is more similar to an iPhone, the report is certainly damning. If it is not, then the document is meaningless. Working up a comparison report to detail what your competitor does better is hardly damning - it's logical and I would guess fairly standard.

numble said:
Yes, take a look at their 132 page document:
http://allthingsd.com/20120807/sams...er-if-it-were-more-like-the-iphone/?mod=tweet
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It's difficult to take your response in good faith. Surely you see the difference in context?
 
DarkhawkX said:
It's difficult to take your response in good faith. Surely you see the difference in context?
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What is the relevant difference? The document is comparing the iPhone to the Galaxy S1. "[L]ike Apple, even they used the the app drawer in their comparison shots to make them look more alike." "Samsung is using screenshots of their phones on the App Drawer rather than the Home Screen in comparison shots."

And what Vyer said.
 
numble said:
What is the relevant difference? The document is comparing the iPhone to the Galaxy S1. "[L]ike Apple, even they used the the app drawer in their comparison shots to make them look more alike." "Samsung is using screenshots of their phones on the App Drawer rather than the Home Screen in comparison shots."

And what Vyer said.
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Wasnt aware. I have only seen the comparison shots from Apple and the Samsung devices are always in the app drawer, not the home screen.


DarkhawkX said:
Someone with experience with both devices will have to answer this one for me (I owned neither). Was the S2 more or less similar to the iPhone than the S1?
Click to expand...

The S2 looks less like an iphone (3G/s) than an S1. Although its still a rectangle with a screen.

S2 on left, S1 on right.

Galaxy-S-v-Galaxy-S2.jpg
 
numble said:
Kare seems like she was useless or a wash. This 132-page document is pretty interesting.

Edit: Lots of interesting stuff, but I LOLed at this (maybe its just me). I guess they were very thorough:

mMl2V.png
Click to expand...

That's pretty funny actually.

I can just imagine the samsung group at the table with the iPhone describing it in that manner, and then just coldly stating the other.

On that note, that document is getting pushed by apple as a "how to copy apple" document, while samsung is claiming it's just a "product critique and comparison". This is why Samsung was pushing the "do you guys look at other products" line of questioning early on.

I'm more inclined to believe the document actually is a comparison document, but then the design said "fuck it" and just aped as much as they could.
 
Copernicus said:
That's pretty funny actually.

I can just imagine the samsung group at the table with the iPhone describing it in that manner, and then just coldly stating the other.

On that note, that document is getting pushed by apple as a "how to copy apple" document, while samsung is claiming it's just a "product critique and comparison". This is why Samsung was pushing the "do you guys look at other products" line of questioning early on.

I'm more inclined to believe the document actually is a comparison document, but then the design said "fuck it" and just aped as much as they could.
Click to expand...

i've seen similar documents at my company comparing our UI/customer experience front end to superior competitors. Although we don't then call out every difference to copy
 
Copernicus said:
That's pretty funny actually.

I can just imagine the samsung group at the table with the iPhone describing it in that manner, and then just coldly stating the other.

On that note, that document is getting pushed by apple as a "how to copy apple" document, while samsung is claiming it's just a "product critique and comparison". This is why Samsung was pushing the "do you guys look at other products" line of questioning early on.

I'm more inclined to believe the document actually is a comparison document, but then the design said "fuck it" and just aped as much as they could.
Click to expand...

Samsung would be better off if in the "directions for improvement" box after the comparison they listed a direction other than "do exactly what is being done on the apple half of the slide" which seems to be the case in basically every example.

Comparing and contrasting is one thing, what is the problem is the directions for improvement section on each page, of which they advise to copy what Apple is doing.
 
I am far more interested to see what the fallout is for the future of Android phones/tablets if Apple wins rather than how much Samsung would have to pay or anything like that. If Apple wins it will likely put the fear of god into all the Android OEM's (Samsung obviously included), I wonder how that would impact future hardware designs and UI's.
 
Cheebo said:
Samsung would be better off if in the "directions for improvement" box after the comparison they listed a direction other than "do exactly what is being done on the apple half of the slide" which seems to be the case in basically every example.

Comparing and contrasting is one thing, what is the problem is the directions for improvement section on each page, of which they advise to copy what Apple is doing.
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Yea, that's probably not a good idea. It's probably why they are also pushing the "everyone was heading in that direction" defense.

Cheebo said:
I am far more interested to see what the fallout is for the future of Android phones/tablets if Apple wins rather than how much Samsung would have to pay or anything like that. If Apple wins it will likely put the fear of god into all the Android OEM's (Samsung obviously included), I wonder how that would impact future hardware designs and UI's.
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The only thing I see Apple winning on is trade dress to be honest, and that wont have any major effect because Samsung is the only ones that were kirfing the look of it. Nearly every other company has their own stylized look that can't be confused with anything close to an iphone. Even Samsungs current looks are wholly different.
 
So lets see, if Apple gets 2.5 billion out of the settlement and there are about 1 billion shares outstanding each share should go up in value by approx $2.50. Woohoo, my portfolio should go up by about $100 if Apple wins!

But seriously, that document should be the nail in Samsung's coffin.
 
Cheebo said:
I am far more interested to see what the fallout is for the future of Android phones/tablets if Apple wins rather than how much Samsung would have to pay or anything like that. If Apple wins it will likely put the fear of god into all the Android OEM's (Samsung obviously included), I wonder how that would impact future hardware designs and UI's.
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Android OEMs stick more closely to Holo.

EVERYBODY WINS!
 
massoluk said:
Why? That's not the whole line of defense of Samsung. They are more like "So what if we were 'influenced' by Apple, it's not illegal"
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Mostly because of the perception it is going to create for the Jury. It looks really really really very extremely bad for Samsung to most people. I don't see how the jury can have that document in the deliberation room and then say, nope Samsung didn't violate Apples trade dress...

I could be wrong but it just seems like the thing that would push the jury over to Apple's side. Of course Samsung has not presented their case yet so we will see.
 
Cheebo said:
Samsung would be better off if in the "directions for improvement" box after the comparison they listed a direction other than "do exactly what is being done on the apple half of the slide" which seems to be the case in basically every example.

Comparing and contrasting is one thing, what is the problem is the directions for improvement section on each page, of which they advise to copy what Apple is doing.
Click to expand...

This X 10
 
mcfrank said:
Mostly because of the perception it is going to create for the Jury. It looks really really really very extremely bad for Samsung to most people. I don't see how the jury can have that document in the deliberation room and then say, nope Samsung didn't violate Apples trade dress...

I could be wrong but it just seems like the thing that would push the jury over to Apple's side. Of course Samsung has not presented their case yet so we will see.
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It's really not. So far the Apple experts that were there to testify on the looks are getting whittled down on their contradictory opinions between questioning and their depositions.

All the juicy bits are getting passed out for headlines.
 
Copernicus said:
It's really not. So far the Apple experts that were there to testify on the looks are getting whittled down on their contradictory opinions between questioning and their depositions.

All the juicy bits are getting passed out for headlines.
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When Conan is running pieces about how Samsung copies apple, I think you can say that perception has stuck with most people.
 
mcfrank said:
When Conan is running pieces about how Samsung copies apple, I think you can say that perception has stuck with most people.
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Sure, but what the jury has to consider and what people outside the courtroom see are two very different worlds.
 
mcfrank said:
And the jury now gets to see the 132 page how to copy apple guide that Samsung wrote... it looks very bad for them IMO
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The jury also gets to have the document put in context and also have it associated in context with Samsung's previous line of questioning to Apple as Copernicus pointed out earlier.

If the S2 design did not literally implement the suggestions in that document, the document is largely meaningless. As I understand it, the report is a post mortem critique put together by a group that was told to explicitly report on any possible perceived flaw in comparison to the iPhone. This is why the report addresses the possible solutions in a direct manner.

Again, I do not own either product so I cannot speak to this, but where is the evidence that Samsung then took this document and implemented the changes? That evidence may exist, but it's nothing short of illogical 'lulz Samsung' short of that existence.

I would hope the jury would be more critical in their examination given the ramifications.
 
Copernicus said:
http://www.siliconvalley.com/ci_21258102/apple-samsung-patent-trial-designer-susan-kare-testifies
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The differing views will be important as the trial unfolds. Apple experts have insisted there is an overall, unmistakable similarity in the appearance of Samsung smartphones and tablets that suggests copying and patent infringement. But when pressed by Samsung, they concede there are distinctions when each design element is broken down to the micro level.
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i mean, a car is a car! The micro level things like headlight shape and door handles, and styling aside... that doesnt matter, we dont look at that kind of detail, its shaped like a car!

This whole thing is ludicrous. Paying people 70-80k to testify in court. I need a new job
 
I think Apple's overzealous defense is going to bite them in the ass. Had they gone for a more subtle "look at all the shit they tried to copy" instead of "they pretty much just bought iphones changed the boxes" it would be less hate worthy.

They really are coming off like brats, if I may personify a company for the first time.
 
numble said:
Thy told her to do this on purpose. Even she can't tell them apart!
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Ohhhh man

At one point, Verhoeven just turned on a Samsung phone for Kare, its screen flashing a "Samsung" logo, then a splashing"Droid"image and finally a home screen with numerous differences. Kare acknowledged that turning on the phone that way was not part of her analysis.
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Let's ignore how bad of an expert you must be if you can't tell the difference physically between any Samsung phones and an iPhone. You didn't turn them on? And you also don't know they run android?
 
Ha that document. Imagine what Apple's document looked like when they started building the iPhone. On the left what a Blackberry, Treo? Maybe it was just a mostly empty box and I don't know they came up with some shit, maybe, some stuff, I dunno?
 
Kinitari said:
Ohhhh man



Let's ignore how bad of an expert you must be if you can't tell the difference physically between any Samsung phones and an iPhone. You didn't turn them on? And you also don't know they run android?
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No, one of their arguments is confusion. It doesn't help Apple for her to say they are very different. She is a supposed expert on icons, not anything else, so she only spoke with regard to the icons. Look up who Susan Kare is.
 
numble said:
No, one of their arguments is confusion. It doesn't help Apple for her to say they are very different. She is a supposed expert on icons, not anything else, so she only spoke with regard to the icons. Look up who Susan Kare is.
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this one example was the phone off. So there were no icons
 
Kinitari said:
Ohhhh man



Let's ignore how bad of an expert you must be if you can't tell the difference physically between any Samsung phones and an iPhone. You didn't turn them on? And you also don't know they run android?
Click to expand...
She is one the most significant people in the history of the modern computer industry. She is called the Betsy Ross of PCs. She is an expert. More than any one in this thread by a longshot.

I mean she was on the original iconic Mac team that pretty much kick started the whole modern PC era.
 
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