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Ferrio said:
So you're trying to compare it to Lee eh?

Okay so his Q is the best comparison.

1. It doesn't require vision.
2. It has a longer angel.

Diana has two have 2 skills ready to do what his Q does, and it has shorter range.
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Lee Sin has 4 escapes. However they all have conditions.

1.) His Q requires that an enemy exists and you can dash there.

2.) His W requires that a nearby friendly target exists.

3.) Requires that opponent is nearby to slow so you can run away.

4.) Requires enemy to be nearby to force them away.

My point is that an escape is any move that will impede enemy movements and as a result enhancing your escape or enhancing your movement/travel capability to run away from your enemy.

Nearly all escapes will require a condition. Of course there exists some that have none, Leblanc is one example. Going by the way you guys are classifying escape, there only exists a handful. There will nearly always be a condition.

Ferrio said:
So you're trying to compare it to Lee eh?

Okay so his Q is the best comparison.

1. It doesn't require vision.
2. It has a longer range.

Diana has two have 2 skills ready to do what his Q does, and it has shorter range. Even then his Q is situational, that I wouldn't label as one. His W I'd say is an escape.




So her escape is to run away. Brilliant.
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What about Lee Sin. What do you do? If all your teammates are in the Dragon's nest it's the same situation. You have to run away.
 
kayos90 said:
Lee Sin has 4 escapes. However they all have conditions.

1.) His Q requires that an enemy exists and you can dash there.

2.) His W requires that a nearby friendly target exists.

3.) Requires that opponent is nearby to slow so you can run away.

4.) Requires enemy to be nearby to force them away.

My point is that an escape is any move that will impede enemy movements and as a result enhancing your escape or enhancing your movement/travel capability to run away from your enemy.

Nearly all escapes will require a condition. Of course there exists some that have none, Leblanc is one example. Going by the way you guys are classifying escape, there only exists a handful. There will nearly always be a condition.
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Diana's requires 2 conditions.

kayos90 said:
What about Lee Sin. What do you do? If all your teammates are in the Dragon's nest it's the same situation. You have to run away.
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Ward, W to it.
 
kayos90 said:
So because it requires two it's no longer an escape? That's quite the restrictive definition imo.

I guess Jax' jump doesn't count as an escape then.
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What two conditions does jax need?

Diana has to have both her Q and Ult on ready AND have a valid target. Only time that's not true is if their minions are behind your ass, which doesn't happen unless you've overextended.
 
kayos90 said:
Nearly all escapes will require a condition. Of course there exists some that have none, Leblanc is one example. Going by the way you guys are classifying escape, there only exists a handful. There will nearly always be a condition.
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The only thing people are saying for Diana's escape is that it requires a hostile target in the retreating direction. Generally speaking, escapes are more neutral. Any target or requiring none at all. Diana's can function as an escape. Nobody says otherwise. Just calling it an escape is misleading since it's more accurately something that can be used to escape rather than a primary escape.

Would you classify Nocturne's ult as an escape?

What about Lee Sin. What do you do? If all your teammates are in the Dragon's nest it's the same situation. You have to run away.
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Lee Sin W's over the wall to a ward. If he doesn't have a ward, he deserved to die.
 
Ferrio said:
What two conditions does jax need?

Diana has to have both her Q and Ult on ready AND have a valid target.
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No. Diana's require that she has vision of the target that she wants to use her ult for. The same for Jax basically. He requires vision and a target to use it on.

scy said:
The only thing people are saying for Diana's escape is that it requires a hostile target in the retreating direction. Generally speaking, escapes are more neutral. Any target or requiring none at all. Diana's can function as an escape. Nobody says otherwise.

Would you classify Nocturne's ult as an escape?



Lee Sin W's over the wall to a ward. If he doesn't have a ward, he deserved to die.
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His ult is an escape in the sense that if the enemies are faraway, it can be used to elude them.

My point is that escape is situational and has practicality. There are only a handful of pure unconditional escapes. Saying Diana's ult isn't an escape is unfair.
 
kayos90 said:
No. Diana's require that she has vision of the target that she wants to use her ult for. The same for Jax basically. He requires vision and a target to use it on.
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No, it's not an escape. It can be used one in a rare occasion... but no 700 range leap that needs vision isn't.
 
kayos90 said:
No. Diana's require that she has vision of the target that she wants to use her ult for. The same for Jax basically. He requires vision and a target to use it on.



His ult is an escape in the sense that if the enemies are faraway, it can be used to elude them.

My point is that escape is situational and practicality. There are only a handful of pure unconditional escapes. Saying Diana's ult isn't an escape is unfair.
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Just because you can make a nice dessert out of corn doesn't mean I'd call corn itself a dessert.
 
garath said:
Just because you can make a nice dessert out of corn doesn't mean I'd call corn itself a dessert.
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I don't see the relevance of this analogy. You'd have to explain it.

Ferrio said:
To hop to what... some mobs that have staggered perfectly for you to hop to? You're setting up these situations that won't happen.
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Uh it does happen. I've done it. Other Diana's have done it. Just because it doesn't happen for you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
kayos90 said:
His ult is an escape in the sense that if the enemies are faraway, it can be used to elude them.
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But would you call it an escape? Or something that can be used to escape? You're arguing that Diana's ultimate is an escape, not something that can be used to escape.

Like Ferrio said earlier, it's a silly semantics argument. Nobody disagree that Diana can't R out of danger in certain situations.

Ferrio said:
Okay then explain what you did.
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To be fair, you can, say, Q -> R wraiths and R their red or something. I've used it a few times in Dominion to cross walls as well. I still wouldn't call it a primary escape tool.
 
scy said:
But would you call it an escape? Or something that can be used to escape? You're arguing that Diana's ultimate is an escape, not something that can be used to escape.

Like Ferrio said earlier, it's a silly semantics argument. Nobody disagree that Diana can't R out of danger in certain situations.
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If it can be used to escape, obviously it is an escape. Of course there are other functionalities to his ult. My point was also taht because it does something, it can't be something else. His ult is an escape.

Schmattakopf said:
Just because it's possible to use a skill (or two skills) to escape does not mean that we call it an escape.
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Then I disagree. If it can be used as an escape then it is an escape.
 
scy said:
But would you call it an escape? Or something that can be used to escape? You're arguing that Diana's ultimate is an escape, not something that can be used to escape.

Like Ferrio said earlier, it's a silly semantics argument. Nobody disagree that Diana can't R out of danger in certain situations.
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Ya I'm done... it's a silly stupid argument that doesn't change anything.. it's all words.

I'll leave you with this, you can't label something because it has a miniscule chance of doing something. If we actually put faith in miniscule chances, then we'd all be carrying around tiamats and calling them OP.
 
Ferrio said:
Ya I'm done... it's a silly stupid argument that doesn't change anything.. it's all words.

I'll leave you with this, you can't label something because it has a miniscule chance of doing something. If we actually put faith in miniscule chances, then we'd all be carrying around tiamats and calling them OP.
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It's not a miniscule chance. If you think it's a miniscule chance then you have never had jungle fights clearly. There are situations that arise that will give high frequency of Diana using her ult as an escape. Just because she can't use it in lane fights to run away? Just because there's nothing to target around Dragon or Baron? Please, that's a poor restrictive way to label something not as an escape.
 
Macattk15 said:
Is Sejuani a better champion than she was on her release?
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The cooldown on her ultimate went down and they decreased the mana cost of her charge at higher ranks. Other than that she's largely the same outside of bug fixes that nerfed her ability to charge through player created walls.
scy said:
The day will come where Sejuani will be OP.

I swear it.

Hopefully Winter
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I think she's already pretty strong, even just small amounts of tweaking could really push her over the edge. A lot of people just have problems building her. She is one of my junglers of choice though.
 
Why aren't people considering Irelia's Q an escape. At higher levels she can use it non stop by jumping from minion to minion because it insta kills minions... :(.

^Sejuani ain't my jungler of choice but god do I love using her. The fact that most people dont know how she works makes it so much fun to use(sort of like shaco)
 
Barrel Cannon said:
Why aren't people considering Irelia's Q an escape. At higher levels she can use it non stop by jumping from minion to minion because it insta kills minions... :(.
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It's all about labels. As a role, the ability can be used as an escape, nobody is denying that. But to label the ability, it is clearly an initiator and should be labelled as such, even if it provides multiple functions.
 
garath said:
Her ult requires vision and only works on opponents. That's like calling Irelia's Q an escape.
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Irelia Q is an escape if you use it well. Juking between bush and minion wave, setting a ward for vision and Q to the other side of the wall.

Diana can do it without ward since her Q give visions, and range on her ult is long enough to reach baron/dragon for free escape during counter jungle. It may sounds very situation, but since she spend most of her early game in jungle or top lane, it is pretty reliable escape if you plan ahead of time.
 
Dance In My Blood said:
I think she's already pretty strong, even just small amounts of tweaking could really push her over the edge. A lot of people just have problems building her. She is one of my junglers of choice though.
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Hrm, perhaps I've just seen constant bad Sejuani's. She feels like she should be good but something seems lacking from her every time I saw one. I mean, she can initiate, stuns, and escaping her is pretty hard with her slows.

Barrel Cannon said:
Why aren't people considering Irelia's Q an escape. At higher levels she can use it non stop by jumping from minion to minion because it insta kills minions... :(.
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Well, you can use it to escape. But, honestly, it's pretty rare because most people clear the minions when pushing up like this. Nothing to Q to.
 
scy said:
Hrm, perhaps I've just seen constant bad Sejuani's. She feels like she should be good but something seems lacking from her every time I saw one. I mean, she can initiate, stuns, and escaping her is pretty hard with her slows.
\.
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My issue with her is she's a poor man's Amumu.
 
Finally upgraded my masteries (had no clue what they were before) and it's so much easier farming now. I always had trouble last shotting minions in the early game.
 
K86Ns.jpg


Yep, she's pretty strong. Managed to pull a quadra kill in this game.
 
mercviper said:
It's all about labels. As a role, the ability can be used as an escape, nobody is denying that. But to label the ability, it is clearly an initiator and should be labelled as such, even if it provides multiple functions.
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The ability resets its cooldown as soon as you kill something. That's one of the most important things about it. It's an amazing clean up tool in team fights but it's also great at getting out of hairy spots during team fights whether it be leaping to a minion or enemy champ. Especially during smaller fights where it's easier to manage all the stuff going on screen using minions to dodge enemy skillshots or as an escape route.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about it being an Initiator as well. It's great for that. But using it just as an initiator limits what you can do with her.

scy said:
Hrm, perhaps I've just seen constant bad Sejuani's. She feels like she should be good but something seems lacking from her every time I saw one. I mean, she can initiate, stuns, and escaping her is pretty hard with her slows.


Well, you can use it to escape. But, honestly, it's pretty rare because most people clear the minions when pushing up like this. Nothing to Q to.
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Lol :P that's the reason I don't clear all the minions when I do plan to engage.
 
kayos90 said:
If it can be used to escape, obviously it is an escape. Of course there are other functionalities to his ult. My point was also taht because it does something, it can't be something else. His ult is an escape.

Then I disagree. If it can be used as an escape then it is an escape.
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This is getting pretty silly. It jumps to the land of "If it can be used as a weapon then it is a weapon." You see a boy holding two sticks. Well, the sticks can be used as weapons. Maybe not very good weapons, maybe only useful in the situation that he stabs them into your eyes, but since they CAN be used as weapons, you analyze the situation as "The boy is holding two weapons"?

Without people agreeing on a definition, any sort of argument about it seems basically pointless. I consider escape moves to be things that affect your movement/position/speed, and which do not require you to jump to something that can hurt you. I can think of the following that do not require jumping to a jungle or enemy monster/minion/champion:

Kat jump to ward
Jax jump to ward (I think this works?)
Lee Sin jump to ward
Riven dash (does not go through walls but requires no target)
Graves dash
Gragas dash
Caitlyn knockback
Tristana rocket jump
Corki flight thingy
Ezreal warp (don't think this requires a target)
Kassadin warp (don't think this requires a target)
Leblanc warp (don't think this requires a target)
Renekton dash (don't think this requires target for first dash)
Jarvan flag + pull
Fizz jump
Nidalee jump (I -think- this can go through walls)
Nautilus pull (requires terrain so it's questionable)
Shaco blink, also goes invisible
Shen dash (I think this can go through walls and doesn't require a target)
Ziggs satchel hop
Tryndamere spin
Vayne tumble (I'm almost certain this can't go through walls, but it gains distance and can briefly cloak)

Ults (not counting Kassadin since I think that's super low-cooldown):

TF ult (does this require you to ult near an enemy champion?)
Pantheon ult
Ahri ult dash
Malphite ult dash (don't think this requires a target)
Shyvana ult dash (don't think this requires a target)
Hecarim (ult and/or speedboost, I don't know him well enough to remember how it works)

If you consider speedboosts:

Teemo speedboost
Rumble speedboost
Zilean speedboost
Eve speedboost
Blitz speedboost
Draven speedboost
Gangplank speedboost
Jayce speedboost
Kennen speedboost
Lulu speedboost (I thinks she has a slight one?)
Nunu speedboost
Master yi speedboost
Orianna speedboost
Poppy speedboost
Rammus speedboost
Singed speedboost
Sivir speedboost
Skarner speedboost
Sona speedboost
Udyr speedboost


I have left out slows since those don't affect the champion using them specifically, but there are of course those as well. So, I'd say even with the definition I mentioned, there are a fair number of moves that can be used as escapes.
 
You have a lot of free time.

Obviously what you're saying is the next champion should be Olaf yordle with two sticks for axes.
 
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