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[metalslimer]

What i'm saying is stop with the patently false "It has no games" meme and focus on the things that are really effecting it. Lack of good or any Sony support, obtaining assurances from these third parties for support and getting that info out to customers like they did in the 2nd/3rd year of PSP, rebuilding their goodwill with customers and try something, anything to try and counter the heavy negativity surrounding the machine. For gods sake a commercial or two wouldn't hurt Sony, even the dumb ass squirrels. These are mistakes they should have learned from the PSP but obviously didn't and they are feeling it hard and nasty right now because the goodwill, assumption of great support and arrogance they could afford with the PSP did not carry over to Vita. They burnt that bridge over this generation and that is what they forgot and what the OP is about. If they want PS4 not to fail they had better remember that to or they will be in the exact same situation. PS3 had only Bluray and Sony pedigree going for it coming off PS2 but they do not have that going forward.

We seem to be going around in circles here, but I completely agree that had the situation been handled differently and future Vita support looked much better than it does it would be doing better and if Sony influence in gaming was still as high as it was Vita would be doing better. So yes that is somewhat of a factor (although I don't think much could be done in the west with tablets and smartphones taking a huge chunk of the market). But since they failed to secure that support the system is selling based off what games are available (by the way most systems don't really sell on future support otherwise the 3DS wouldn't have started off as bad). And going off what is available Vita has no games that are selling the system to anything more than an extreme niche.

This statement is off base. The Vita is the most powerful gaming handheld.

My reason for dismissing Vita's power is the rate at which mobile tech advances today. A phone as powerful as the PSP was unthinkable at that time. Phones early next year will surpass Vita. Meaning for tech enthusiasts Vita will be extremely long in the tooth in 2 years. I was speaking specifically about that niche.

 

[Sipowicz]

i think at this point all but the most devoted of "fans" have accepted the demise of the vita

I still want to say however that in its brief lifetime i haven't found the vita's first party support that much worse than first party 3ds support.

tearaway and gravity rush look fantastic and are fresher than anything nintendo are putting on the 3ds. despite their continued failure nintendo could learn a lot from sony

 

[Skyzard]

My reason for dismissing Vita's power is the rate at which mobile tech advances today. A phone as powerful as the PSP was unthinkable at that time. Phones early next year will surpass Vita. Meaning for tech enthusiasts Vita will be extremely long in the tooth in 2 years. I was speaking specifically about that niche.

Not gaming enthusiasts though.

Even if phones have the capability to reach Vita levels in a few years doesn't mean many games would, nor would they be as enjoyable since phones have very limited inputs for gaming (enthusiasts)...which they'd all realise by now.

 

[metalslimer]

Not gaming enthusiasts though...Strange how you always miss the point but get everything else...

Well if you actually read what I wrote we were discussing why the PSP was so popular in the beginning vs Vita when PSP and Vita have similarish lineups for the first 6 months. Of course for gaming enthusiasts it all comes down to what games are available. What separates Vita and PSP is how fast mobile tech moves these days.

Even if phones have the capability to reach Vita levels in a few years doesn't mean many games would, nor would they be as enjoyable since phones have very limited inputs for gaming (enthusiasts)...which they'd all realise by now.

Well as sales are showing apparently many mobile gamers don't give a crap about these inputs

 

[Skyzard]

Well if you actually read what I wrote we were discussing why the PSP was so popular in the beginning vs Vita when PSP and Vita have similarish lineups for the first 6 months. Of course for gaming enthusiasts it all comes down to what games are available. What separates Vita and PSP is how fast mobile tech moves these days.

I read both posts... my post still stands though, for gaming enthusiasts, mobile gaming isn't really an option these days (nor will it ever be until they change inputs significantly). Maybe for the casuals or for people who have other consoles and just play mobile games on their commute but what you are saying isn't really true (and would only be a small part of it..)

-- The better mobiles do lessen the appeal or adoption-speed of the vita for many of the younger gamers (who used to buy PSP - fair enough), but hardly makes it obsolete.

Well as sales are showing apparently many mobile gamers don't give a crap about these inputs

Many mobile gamers aren't gaming enthusiasts...

Also, people, don't confuse sales with appeal.

 

[Miburou]

I think the PSP faced the same problem, aside from Monster Hunter in Japan. It was hard to define what the machine was about. It was sort of the console-experience on the go, but not quite.

I'm loving my Vita, especially now that I have two mem cards and can (awkwardly) switch back and forth between my collection of US Vita, PSP and PSOne games and my Japanese collection, and there are a number of games coming up I'm interested in, but I'm finding it hard to convince my brothers and friends to buy one.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

What are examples of 'system' sellers that are a reasonable acquisition for Sony?

I'm having a hard time thinking of any system sellers in this day and age of gaming outside of "Mario". It's not like Monster Hunter is a global sensation.

Yakuza 5, Resident Evil 6, Lightning Returns FFXIII, Metal Gear Rising, PES2013, Ken's Rage 2, Tales of Xillia 2, 2nd Super Robot Taisen OG, Dragon's Dogma DA... basically transplanting their notable PS3 lineup to Vita instead would turn things around in Japan imo.

In the west, there's no hope. A product like Vita just has no place in the mainstream market overseas.

 

[metalslimer]

I read both posts... my post still stands though, for gaming enthusiasts, mobile gaming isn't really an option these days (nor will it ever be until they change inputs significantly). Maybe for the casuals or for people who have other consoles and just play mobile games on their commute but what you are saying isn't really true (and would only be a small part of it..)

I think you underestimate the amount of people who are only interested in those kind of experiences on their handhelds, or you overestimate the amount of gaming enthusiasts that actually care about full size games on their handhelds. This is speaking about the west only as obviously Japan is handheld land.

 

[Father_Brain]

I think you underestimate the amount of people who are only interested in those kind of experiences on their handhelds, or you overestimate the amount of gaming enthusiasts that actually care about full size games on their handhelds. This is speaking about the west only as obviously Japan is handheld land.

Yeah. I don't think there's any conceivable software aimed at that demographic that would sell Vita to them in large quantities, short of basically forcing them by making mainline entries in major franchises (COD, AC, RE, GTA, MGS, Elder Scrolls, Bioshock, etc.) Vita-exclusive, and that's obviously not happening.

 

[Skyzard]

I think you underestimate the amount of people who are only interested in those kind of experiences on their handhelds, or you overestimate the amount of gaming enthusiasts that actually care about full size games on their handhelds. This is speaking about the west only as obviously Japan is handheld land.

I know there are a huge number of those people but those people were never candidates for the vita and not the enthusiasts we're talking about.. even with PS mobile, it just doesn't mean shit, they needed a good phone and the games are a plus.

I know younger gamers (11+ though), who traditionally were big fans of the PSP would be more interested in phones these days compared to psp times (like you said, yes fair enough) which cost a lot more too these days and they will be left thinking, well I got an iPhone 4, this will do for mobile gaming.

True at the moment there aren't many people playing 'full-on' mobile games but I believe that's mainly because of how new it is and for the west especially, Sony is going to have to tell them to do it a few times before they do - which they haven't yet. - I don't mean rpgs of course.

Yeah. I don't think there's any conceivable software aimed at that demographic that would sell Vita to them in large quantities, short of basically forcing them by
making mainline entries in major franchises (COD, AC, RE, GTA, MGS, Elder Scrolls, Bioshock, etc.) Vita-exclusive, and that's obviously not happening.

I don't believe this at all. Just because their sales are low doesn't really reflect fully on the games when the platform itself hasn't taken off yet. I also wouldn't be so sure about some of those franchises down the line.

I'm actually starting to hope that I am wrong and things won't turn around so much next year as I can't be the only one to see the potential with a decent ad campaign and a price drop. They should really be able to create a market for their vita to be honest, especially when we're nearing the end of the current console development cycle. I honestly believe most people would buy a vita come price drop - when they've had a chance to play with one and the only thing they need to push them further is more marketing hype and a specific hook for them personally - plenty of those hooks about but could do with a few more AAA ones next year..not just soul sacrifice.

 

[Kazerei]

And then we get to promised support, and thats part of what i'm talking about. You and others kept specifically stating as far as sales data goes Vita has no games. When I claimed of course games sales data are low because the HW sales are abysmal but that doesn't mean it has no games. You start acting like i'm growing another head. It's an incredibly myopic view to take on the situation.

I still can't believe you're serious about this. Even factoring in install base, Vita software is doing terribly. For example, in the first 40 weeks since launching in Japan, Dreamcast and Vita sold the same amount of hardware, but Dreamcast sold roughly 2.5 times more software.

 

[metalslimer]

I think there is a fundamental problem with thinking that those kind of experiences are what people really want on the go. Most people have very little time while they aren't at home to devote to playing games which is why short time killers are so popular. Having to only carry one device is a huge plus as well. This is also a big reason why Resident Evil Revelations failed. The reason why the 3DS is even able to have somewhat of a market is because of Mario popularity and the ability to play for like 5 minutes and shut the device off. Vita may have games like this but they obviously don't carry the same popularity. It sucks that more people aren't interested, but this is pretty much how I see the western mobile market.

I still can't believe you're serious about this. Even factoring in install base, Vita software is doing terribly. For example, in the first 40 weeks since launching in Japan, Dreamcast and Vita sold the same amount of hardware, but Dreamcast sold roughly 2.5 times more software.

Like I said way earlier in the topic, most people don't realize just how terrible Vita's hardware and software sales are.

 

[Skyzard]

I think there is a fundamental problem with thinking that those kind of experiences are what people really want on the go. Most people have very little time while they aren't at home to devote to playing games which is why short time killers are so popular. Having to only carry one device is a huge plus as well. This is also a big reason why Resident Evil Revelations failed. The reason why the 3DS is even able to have somewhat of a market is because of Mario popularity and the ability to play for like 5 minutes and shut the device off. Vita may have games like this but they obviously don't carry the same popularity. It sucks that more people aren't interested, but this is pretty much how I see the western mobile market.

Yep.

But who says people can only play the vita on the go? Portable just means you can move it - I wonder what proportion of iPads are used outside of the home more then indoors etc.

That's what Sony isn't pushing strongly enough (possibly due to PS3) - I trust EU to recognise it and this sounds a bit prejudice but yeah I can see why many in the west would struggle to realise it (especially in the beginning).

There's an argument for vita at home over consoles - even more so then any handheld before it (I honestly believe this quite strongly). Similar to how there is for using an iPad to browse the net when you have a PC or even a laptop in the other room.

 

[metalslimer]

Yep.

But who says people can only play the vita on the go? Portable just means you can move it - I wonder what proportion of iPads are used outside of the home more then indoors etc.

That's what Sony isn't pushing strongly enough (possibly due to PS3) - I trust EU to recognise it and this sounds a bit prejudice but yeah I can see why many in the west would struggle to realise it (especially in the beginning).

There's an argument for vita at home over consoles. Similar (but not exactly, true) to how there is for using an iPad to browse the net when you have a PC or even a laptop in the other room.

One of Sony's biggest mistakes with the Vita imo? Not including an HDMI out. It's a very small thing, but it would be huge in going towards the direction they seem to want Vita to be in.

 

[Skyzard]

One of Sony's biggest mistakes with the Vita imo? Not including an HDMI out. It's a very small thing, but it would be huge in going towards the direction they seem to want Vita to be in.

I was stumped. Maybe they thought it would seriously compete with the PS3 lol..or make it even more pricey then it is. I really hope it is coming in a new revision in the future as it would hit the point home so fast...especially for the younger ones!

As it is though, there are a few more reasons to turn on the vita instead of the PS3...but I realise.. most people won't know that until they own it. (Most of it is to do with convenience - but since gaming doesn't hold the same priority for everyone forever - they really could/should have milked this older market a bit more then they have..)

 

[metalslimer]

I was stumped. Maybe they thought it would seriously compete with the PS3 lol..or make it even more pricey then it is. I really hope it is coming in a new revision in the future as it would hit the point home so fast...especially for the younger ones!

I mean I don't know if it would seriously impact sales, but just imagine buying PS All Star battle royale. You have both the PS3 and Vita version automatically. You can then both bring it on the go with the same file, but also go over to a friends house and plug it into his tv to play together. Sure this makes it more of a PS3 competitor, but at the same time they aren't helping that by making Vita/PS3 cross plats so they might as well make it fully integrated. People have suggested that Vita can avoid complete failure by turning itself more into a niche product, and this seems like a way to go about that. Maybe if SCEE was actually in charge they would be able to do something but the top of Sony seems way to incompetent to do something like this.

 

[iammeiam]

One of Sony's biggest mistakes with the Vita imo? Not including an HDMI out. It's a very small thing, but it would be huge in going towards the direction they seem to want Vita to be in.

Oh god this has to be one of the weirdest decisions Sony made with the Vita. HDMI out (or, hell, an overpriced HDMI Dock accessory they could bundle into a Vita Deluxe Pack) + ability to use a Dual Shock would be a huge boost to making the Vita into an actual console you can take with you. The PSP already did all this to some extent, so it just makes no sense they dropped it.

 

[Ponn]

I still can't believe you're serious about this. Even factoring in install base, Vita software is doing terribly. For example, in the first 40 weeks since launching in Japan, Dreamcast and Vita sold the same amount of hardware, but Dreamcast sold roughly 2.5 times more software.

Again, that does not = "vita has no games" as a fact. No math professor on earth would agree with you. Also didn't Dreamcast have one of the bigger attach rates out of consoles in japan and U.S.? I remember it being heavily imported because it was so import friendly, me and a friend both imported one with pretty much every launch game and several accessories. If you're importing you do it all at once, rule of thumb. Godzilla wasn't as fun as it looked. Out of curiosity though are the numbers you are using include digital sales? I haven't heard confirmation on if they were including those numbers or not or if they were even able to get them.

Also if they do have digital numbers do they have PSP games bought for the first time on Vita? Wondering if Sony has seen a boost in those sales since Vita release. I know it can't be much but wondering if having BC games library available at launch on a system makes for more BC sales then someone having to hunt down old games in stores.

 

[Kazerei]

Again, that does not = "vita has no games" as a fact. No math professor on earth would agree with you. Also didn't Dreamcast have one of the bigger attach rates out of consoles in japan and U.S.? I remember it being heavily imported because it was so import friendly, me and a friend both imported one with pretty much every launch game and several accessories. If you're importing you do it all at once, rule of thumb. Godzilla wasn't as fun as it looked. Out of curiosity though are the numbers you are using include digital sales? I haven't heard confirmation on if they were including those numbers or not or if they were even able to get them.

Also if they do have digital numbers do they have PSP games bought for the first time on Vita? Wondering if Sony has seen a boost in those sales since Vita release. I know it can't be much but wondering if having BC games library available at launch on a system makes for more BC sales then someone having to hunt down old games in stores.

"Vita has no compelling games to drive hardware sales" is pretty much a fact.

Digital sales aren't included (Media-Create, Famitsu, etc. can't track those numbers), but that's not going to help much. Maybe Dreamcast software outsold Vita software by a factor of only 2.0. Hurray.

You can come up with excuses for the low software sales. But surely you see that the lack of compelling software is a problem.

 

[Ponn]

"Vita has no compelling games to drive hardware sales" is pretty much a fact.

Digital sales aren't included (Media-Create, Famitsu, etc. can't track those numbers), but that's not going to help much. Maybe Dreamcast software outsold Vita software by a factor of only 2.0. Hurray.

You can come up with excuses for the low software sales. But surely you see that the lack of compelling software is a problem.

First I would say you are greatly underestimating DD sales. Not saying its going to double sales numbers but trying to sweep them under the rug is disingenuous. That is a huge push for Sony on vita and why else do you think people are bitching about high memory card prices. Poll the Vita OT thread if you want. I myself got UMvsC3 on card and thats it physical, On my card I have HSG, Katamari, Gravity Rush and LBP. And we're not even getting into PSN only titles like SSD, Mutant Blobs, Escape Plan, etc.

Second I wasn't coming up with excuses for low vita software sales. I responded to your original quote stating Vita had no games based on software sales and simply said that was false and when comparing it to other console software sales that would be unfair since the HW sales of Vita were so low. So at most you could say one excuse, which really is the most important one when put in perspective.

Third, here we go with more waffling after trying to make me look crazy and stupid. Now were going from "Saleswise Vita has no games" to "Vita has no compelling games". All of this is subjective thats why i'm saying its a false statement. Its pure unadulterated arrogance to claim it as fact, without even accurate numbers to boot.

I've stated, several times now, having a lack of commitment from third parties and reassurances from Sony on future support is a huge problem, still one of several reasons for poor Vita sales. That does not in any way shape or form known to man or physics equal "Vita has no games" That meme being floated around as "fact" is one of many reasons hurting Vita.

 

[Father_Brain]

First I would say you are greatly underestimating DD sales. Not saying its going to double sales numbers but trying to sweep them under the rug is disingenuous. That is a huge push for Sony on vita and why else do you think people are bitching about high memory card prices. Poll the Vita OT thread if you want. I myself got UMvsC3 on card and thats it physical, On my card I have HSG, Katamari, Gravity Rush and LBP. And we're not even getting into PSN only titles like SSD, Mutant Blobs, Escape Plan, etc.

Second I wasn't coming up with excuses for low vita software sales. I responded to your original quote stating Vita had no games based on software sales and simply said that was false and when comparing it to other console software sales that would be unfair since the HW sales of Vita were so low. So at most you could say one excuse, which really is the most important one when put in perspective.

Third, here we go with more waffling after trying to make me look crazy and stupid. Now were going from "Saleswise Vita has no games" to "Vita has no compelling games". All of this is subjective thats why i'm saying its a false statement. Its pure unadulterated arrogance to claim it as fact, without even accurate numbers to boot.

I've stated, several times now, having a lack of commitment from third parties and reassurances from Sony on future support is a huge problem, still one of several reasons for poor Vita sales. That does not in any way shape or form known to man or physics equal "Vita has no games" That meme being floated around as "fact" is one of many reasons hurting Vita.

First, you imply without any evidence that DD sales would significantly improve the software sales picture, then you claim you're not making excuses. Hmm.

Secondly, your examples of moving the goalposts are literally the exact same argument, just worded differently.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

I think the average figure we got for Japanese digital Vita sales was 10% of retail.

 

[Kazerei]

First I would say you are greatly underestimating DD sales. Not saying its going to double sales numbers but trying to sweep them under the rug is disingenuous. That is a huge push for Sony on vita and why else do you think people are bitching about high memory card prices. Poll the Vita OT thread if you want. I myself got UMvsC3 on card and thats it physical, On my card I have HSG, Katamari, Gravity Rush and LBP. And we're not even getting into PSN only titles like SSD, Mutant Blobs, Escape Plan, etc.

Second I wasn't coming up with excuses for low vita software sales. I responded to your original quote stating Vita had no games based on software sales and simply said that was false and when comparing it to other console software sales that would be unfair since the HW sales of Vita were so low. So at most you could say one excuse, which really is the most important one when put in perspective.

Third, here we go with more waffling after trying to make me look crazy and stupid. Now were going from "Saleswise Vita has no games" to "Vita has no compelling games". All of this is subjective thats why i'm saying its a false statement. Its pure unadulterated arrogance to claim it as fact, without even accurate numbers to boot.

I've stated, several times now, having a lack of commitment from third parties and reassurances from Sony on future support is a huge problem, still one of several reasons for poor Vita sales. That does not in any way shape or form known to man or physics equal "Vita has no games" That meme being floated around as "fact" is one of many reasons hurting Vita.

1. Even factoring in a generous estimate of digital sales, Vita software sales are terrible.

2. Even factoring in the low install base, Vita software sales are terrible.

3. "Saleswise Vita has no games" has always meant "Vita has no compelling games to drive hardware" and it's not subjective.

 

[GavinGT]

I think the average figure we got for Japanese digital Vita sales was 10% of retail.

Plus, this percentage will only go down throughout Christmas time, as parents don't buy their kids digital products. Combined with retailers even further condensing their Vita sections to make room for games that actually sell, I don't see a lot of Vita software being sold this holiday season.

 

[Ponn]

First, you imply without any evidence that DD sales would significantly improve the software sales picture, then you claim you're not making excuses. Hmm.

Secondly, your examples of moving the goalposts are literally the exact same argument, just worded differently.

Because my original disagreement with the poster wasn't trying to argue the actual sales numbers, just that they didn't equal 0 games. I was adding some extra food for thought in that post you quoted as I clarified I was just curious if his numbers in the previous post included them or not. Keep up.

Do you happen to think DD sales on the Vita are a quarter or less of reported physical sales?

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Do you happen to think DD sales on the Vita are a quarter or less of reported physical sales?

Less in Japan for sure, significantly. We have no frame of reference, but I'd assume higher relative sales in the west versus retail.

 

[metalslimer]

Because my original disagreement with the poster wasn't trying to argue the actual sales numbers, just that they didn't equal 0 games. I was adding some extra food for thought in that post you quoted as I clarified I was just curious if his numbers in the previous post included them or not. Keep up.

Do you happen to think DD sales on the Vita are a quarter or less of reported physical sales?

Uh from the actual reports we've gotten yes (from 10-20%) for the ones we've gotten from Japan. Honestly even if they were the majority and accounted for 60% (no chance in hell but hypothetically) the software sales would be terrible.

 

[GavinGT]

First I would say you are greatly underestimating DD sales. Not saying its going to double sales numbers but trying to sweep them under the rug is disingenuous. That is a huge push for Sony on vita and why else do you think people are bitching about high memory card prices. Poll the Vita OT thread if you want. I myself got UMvsC3 on card and thats it physical, On my card I have HSG, Katamari, Gravity Rush and LBP. And we're not even getting into PSN only titles like SSD, Mutant Blobs, Escape Plan, etc.

The official Vita thread is a conversation between the same 20 Vita super-evangelists. I don't think that's indicative of anything.

 

[Skyzard]

^ what? There are lots of posters in the thread, the top 10 or so post a tonne though, which as a tidbit isn't indicative of much - like you claim..

1. Even factoring in a generous estimate of digital sales, Vita software sales are terrible.

2. Even factoring in the low install base, Vita software sales are terrible.

3. "Saleswise Vita has no games" has always meant "Vita has no compelling games to drive hardware" and it's not subjective.

Maybe it's because I've been avoiding the sales threads but I didn't think they'd be that bad considering the current vita userbase..?

I agree we may be underestimating digital sales quite strongly as it has been a pretty heavy push for them, especially here in the EU..not to mention the convenience - which comes at a cost but given it's early adopter userbase - it shouldn't be doing that badly despite current memory card prices. (just saying sort of a sentence..haven't seen the figures)

3 is very subjective. What you are actually saying is there have been no games that have caused a skyrocket of vita sales yet. That doesn't really reflect on game quality at all. I can't think of any game ever released that would cause the boost you're looking for in vita sales.

 

[schuelma]

^ what? There are lots of posters in the thread, the top 10 or so post a tonne though, which as a tidbit isn't indicative of much - like you claim..

.

I'm really trying to bite my tongue here.

 

[Skyzard]

I'm really trying to bite my tongue here.

I don't think that's healthy..

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Because my original disagreement with the poster wasn't trying to argue the actual sales numbers, just that they didn't equal 0 games. I was adding some extra food for thought in that post you quoted as I clarified I was just curious if his numbers in the previous post included them or not. Keep up.

Do you happen to think DD sales on the Vita are a quarter or less of reported physical sales?

I think digital sales are way lower because it costs so much extra money for higher memory cards.

 

[metalslimer]

I can't think of any game ever released that would cause the boost you're looking for in vita sales.

Hypothetically if Nintendo started making Vita games it would. Pokemon saved the GB from the downward slop it was heading. PS1 sales weren't amazing for the first 2 years until the barrage of games including FF7 came out. Single games have caused huge and prolonged boosts before.

Why in the world would I want HDMI out for a Vita? That's a feature that applies only to super mega fans - you can hook your portable up to a TV! By the way, your portable's game library is mostly down ports from a system that is already hooked up to the same TV! What???

Being able to play on any tv even one that doesn't have a PS3 would be great. And yes it would be cool playing something like Gravity Daze on the big screen.

 

[Margalis]

HDMI out? Man....you guys are on some strong drugs lol.

The Vita failed as a portable PS3 when it wasn't an actual portable PS3. Your portable console is either a portable console like Nomad or Turbo Express or it isn't, there isn't a middle ground. The Vita cannot play PS3 games - the end.

Why in the world would I want HDMI out for a Vita? That's a feature that applies only to super mega fans - you can hook your portable up to a TV! By the way, your portable's game library is mostly down ports from a system that is already hooked up to the same TV! What???

 

[OldJadedGamer]

^ what? There are lots of posters in the thread, the top 10 or so post a tonne though, which as a tidbit isn't indicative of much - like you claim.. .

You persoanlly are one of the top ten posters in that thread.

 

[Skyzard]

^ Yes, I'm currently joint-tenth - what does that have to do with polling unless you only expect the top 10 to reply - and if that was the problem then most discussion threads would be a waste of time.

Hypothetically if Nintendo started making Vita games it would. Pokemon saved the GB from the downward slop it was heading. PS1 sales weren't amazing for the first 2 years until the barrage of games including FF7 came out. Single games have caused huge and prolonged boosts before.

I definitely believe that it could happen hypothetically, I'm just thinking it would need something extraordinary in the current climate of video games. Does a single game really sell a system by itself when there was no previous interest in it these days... Of course it does for a few people, but to get that many on board today? I think there are less costly things they could do instead and get a similar effect..

Especially given how good games have been getting recently...it would take a ridiculous budget - who would front that?

Sony in 2013, Q3-4 will be interesting..

 

[Kazerei]

Maybe it's because I've been avoiding the sales threads but I didn't think they'd be that bad considering the current vita userbase..?

I agree we may be underestimating digital sales quite strongly as it has been a pretty heavy push for them, especially here in the EU..not to mention the convenience - which comes at a cost but given it's early adopter userbase - it shouldn't be doing that badly despite current memory card prices. (just saying sort of a sentence..haven't seen the figures)

3 is very subjective. What you are actually saying is there have been no games that have caused a skyrocket of vita sales yet. That doesn't really reflect on game quality at all. I can't think of any game ever released that would cause the boost you're looking for in vita sales.

Yeah, I'm saying "no games have caused a skyrocket of Vita sales yet" and that's objective. That's always been the message from sales-age. It's never been a comment about game quality. It's been said many times.

SCEA sucks by the way. If they wanted to push digital, they could at least reduce PSN prices to reflect new MSRPs, put on more PSN sales, and add more PS1 games to the store. Come on SCEA

 

[Boney]

what are you guys even arguing lol

 

[Captain Tuttle]

If Sony knew that there was no chance for Vita to sell, they would have not made Vita.

Sony does not lie in their investor documents, not only it is illegal, it is also bad for the company. However Sony is constantly wrong with their projections and hence their stock is so undervalued, investors do not trust them. Compare this to Toyota, another Japanese company, that always outperforms expectations, and their stock as result is always very high, and their market cap outperforms competition by 2x.

So why is Sony so bad at predicting stuff? Bad management.

Sounds like Sony's stock price is right on the money, not undervalued.

 

[staticneuron]

Besides the fact that ratio arguments tend to favor smaller userbases (getting 10% of a 900k base is significantly easier than managing 10% on an 8m base), the reason sales-age doesn't compare sales that way is simple: no one cares. Publishers, developers, retailers, trackers, basically the entire industry looks first and foremost at absolute numbers. Because at the end of the day, that's what matters to your bottom line.

This sort of argument is doubly amusing in the context of 3DS versus Vita, given the natural development costs associated with each hardware spec. If anything, 3DS should logically have the lower threshold if you want to go down weighted performance comparisons.

There are more factors than that. Just because people at home like to follow absolute numbers publishers and Devs will always be concerned with the context and any spicific mitigating factor for (or for lack of) great sales on a title.

Yeah, this is pretty much pure unsubstantiated bullshit. Every major leading platform, be they from Nintendo (FC, SFC, DS) or Sony (PS1, PS2), has a wide diversity of games both at the high and low ends if the sales spectrum.

Trying to distinguish userbase purely based on the name on the box is always a faulty, and most often a fanboyish, sort of argument. You've got your bias backwards here.

Really? Unsubstantiated?

All I said is looking at sales you can see a correlation and a general direction in which the base tends to consume titles. It can all be broken down in numbers and clear distinct trends can be seen across the generations.

If you really want me to return with numbers I can but seriously think about the numbers and if I put up the statement that the "Nintendo userbase in the past generation have preferred party games and platformers in the past generation." The sales would simply prove or disprove my statement.

My statement about the purchasing habits of each respective base can also be easily looked up and checked.

I have done this research before. Hence my statement. Take a quick gander at the sales charts before calling it unsubstantiated or fanboyish because the numbers don't take sides.

Comparing review score averages from GameRankings? Heh, some things never change

I thought you meant people were criticizing PSP software sales and performance (which were fine, even in North America), but yeah you're right, there were people criticizing PSP's software library as being watered-down console games and such.

Now opinions are one thing, sales are another. The comparison between PSP and Vita in terms of opinions is a bit similar; strong at launch, then turned negative. But the comparison between PSP and Vita in terms of sales is not similar at all. I think that's the point alot of people are trying to make here.



Again, I'm not talking about opinions, I'm talking about sales.

Edit: To both of you, bottom line here is, when people said "PSP has no games" that was just their opinion. When people say "Vita has no games" it's kind of a sales fact.

Yeah, we can all agree on the sales issue that is a fact but the "vita has no games" part is questionable as an absolute statement. The vita doesn't have any games that spur increased adoption I can understand. I take it that is what is being said here. As I said before..

Will the Vita ever set the charts on fire? I have no idea. Maybe not. But I don't think it will get "worse". As in a total lack of interest people will pick one up when they see that a game they like (or a few) have been released.

I wouldn't think so. I think the interest of the market can be assessed accurately "after" the titles are released.

I am simply of the opinion that things will get better for the vita over time in terms of game selection and as a result there will be an improved reaction from gamers looking for a reason to purchase a Vita.

Either they did not include it because blown up Vita games would be a lot more obviously not as good as PS3 (and they were at launch still heavily implying the "PS3 in your hands" line), or perhaps more annoyingly, they're intentionally holding off so that they have something to include in a Vita 2.0

Don't take this as fact because I really don't know but I think another option could be cost cutting. If the HDMI out required additional controllers and/or an additional processor then they could have simply decided it was not worth the hardware/manufacture costs. Space probably could have been an issue as well.

 

[plufim]

Oh god this has to be one of the weirdest decisions Sony made with the Vita. HDMI out (or, hell, an overpriced HDMI Dock accessory they could bundle into a Vita Deluxe Pack) + ability to use a Dual Shock would be a huge boost to making the Vita into an actual console you can take with you. The PSP already did all this to some extent, so it just makes no sense they dropped it.

Either they did not include it because blown up Vita games would be a lot more obviously not as good as PS3 (and they were at launch still heavily implying the "PS3 in your hands" line), or perhaps more annoyingly, they're intentionally holding off so that they have something to include in a Vita 2.0

 

[Kazerei]

Yeah, we can all agree on the sales issue that is a fact but the "vita has no games" part is questionable as an absolute statement. The vita doesn't have any games that spur increased adoption I can understand. I take it that is what is being said here. As I said before..


I am simply of the opinion that things will get better for the vita over time in terms of game selection and as a result there will be an improved reaction from gamers looking for a reason to purchase a Vita.

I'm glad we cleared up the misunderstanding. Although I'm pessimistic about Vita's outlook. I think it's already caught in a "negative cycle" as someone described earlier. PS3 is probably the best example of "things will get better", but I don't see how Vita could achieve the same.

 

[staticneuron]

I'm glad we cleared up the misunderstanding. Although I'm pessimistic about Vita's outlook. I think it's already caught in a "negative cycle" as someone described earlier. PS3 is probably the best example of "things will get better", but I don't see how Vita could achieve the same.

Yeah, I was trying to convey the idea bout sales in earlier posts.

It is very hard when looking at Sony console sales, to find the titles that cause great leaps in adoption rates outside of the MH series. It is easier to see with Nintendo and somewhat easy to see with MS (despite the most noticeable influences being price drops and new hardware releases). At least when talking about worldwide sales numbers some hardware seem to have a gradual rise instead of sharp spikes.

Even when talking about PSP numbers above, I am not sure if it was noticed this is talking about sales from the launch period. For sony consoles, the launch, price drop, redesign, are normally the largest boost that are noticeable and for the gaps inbetween those can be argued it is all about the library.

I think the PS3 is a perfect example of showing how the library as a whole seemed to benefit the system instead of having one or two titles that seemingly pushes the hardware sales.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

If third parties want nothing to do with Vita then the platform is a bust. Sony first party isn't doing shit, especially when the most prominent devs have flat out stated they want nothing to do with Vita.

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

Yakuza 5, Resident Evil 6, Lightning Returns FFXIII, Metal Gear Rising, PES2013, Ken's Rage 2, Tales of Xillia 2, 2nd Super Robot Taisen OG, Dragon's Dogma DA... basically transplanting their notable PS3 lineup to Vita instead would turn things around in Japan imo.

In the west, there's no hope. A product like Vita just has no place in the mainstream market overseas.

Really hate to be beating a dead horse here as I've posted this opinion before but I think Sony's best bet is to double down on remote play with Gaikai: I'd love to simply use the Vita as a second screen and PSP / PSone classics machine at this point if dedicated third party support just isn't there. Why spend the resources to port it just make the games you mentioned remote play compatible and let Sony foot the bill if devs are hesitant to patch in remote play.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

There are more factors than that. Just because people at home like to follow absolute numbers publishers and Devs will always be concerned with the context and any spicific mitigating factor for (or for lack of) great sales on a title.

Obviously context matters, and devs/etc will take specifics into consideration when evaluating performance. However that doesn't impact my point in the least; absolute numbers always matter, userbase ratios mostly don't.

Really? Unsubstantiated?

All I said is looking at sales you can see a correlation and a general direction in which the base tends to consume titles. It can all be broken down in numbers and clear distinct trends can be seen across the generations.

If you really want me to return with numbers I can but seriously think about the numbers and if I put up the statement that the "Nintendo userbase in the past generation have preferred party games and platformers in the past generation." The sales would simply prove or disprove my statement.

My statement about the purchasing habits of each respective base can also be easily looked up and checked.

I have done this research before. Hence my statement. Take a quick gander at the sales charts before calling it unsubstantiated or fanboyish because the numbers don't take sides.

Well, if the numbers are so self evidently pointing to a high end weight for Nintendo and a low end spread for PlayStation, and so easily checked, then it won't be much trouble for you to present a comprehensive case to that with data to support that. Especially if you've "done the research before". I appreciate and look forward to it, thanks.

 

[boiled goose]

If Sony was serious about Vita you would see LBP karting and Sony all stars exclusive to Vita.

They have no confidence the platform.

People complain Sony has not done a good job advertising the Vita. Well, how does advertising work? The more sales each dollar of advertising will get you, the more you are willing to advertise.
Tells you how much faith Sony has on the Vita...

 

[staticneuron]

Well, if the numbers are so self evidently pointing to a high end weight for Nintendo and a low end spread for PlayStation, and so easily checked, then it won't be much trouble for you to present a comprehensive case to that with data to support that. Especially if you've "done the research before". I appreciate and look forward to it, thanks.

Not a problem. I don't have my older charts and material but I can whip some numbers up for you real quick.

NES:
Final Install: 61.91 million
Best selling game outside of pack in: Mario 3 with 18 million (29% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 6 of them are First party
4 platformers : 2 rpg's :3 Action-Adventure: 1 Puzzle
Top 10 represent 100 million units (20%) out of 500 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

SNES:
Final Install: 49 million
Best selling game outside of pack in: Donkey Kong Country with 9 million (19% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 7 of them are First party
4 platformers : 3 fighters :1 Action-Adventure: 1 Flying : 1 Racer
Top 10 represent 76 million units (19.2%) out of 396 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

N64:
Final Install: 32.9 million
Best selling game: Super Mario 64 with 11 million (27.5% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 10 of them are First party
2 platformers : 1 fighters :2 Action-Adventure: 1 Flying : 2 Racer: 1 strategy : 1 FPS
Top 10 represent 60 million units (26%) out of 225 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

Gamecube:
Final Install: 21.74 million
Best selling game: Super Smash Bros. Melee with 7 million (32% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 9 of them are First party
2 platformers : 1 fighters :2 Action-Adventure: 1 Sim : 1 Racer: 1 strategy : 1 FPS: 1 party
Top 10 represent 37 million units (18%) out of 208 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

Wii:
Final Install: 96.56 million (as of June 30, 2012)
Best selling game outside of pack in: Mario Kart Wii with 32.44 million (30% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 10 of them are First party
3 platformers : 2 sports : 2 party: 1 Action-Adventure: 1 Fighting : 1 Racer
Top 10 represent 269 million units (32%) out of 827 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.


NDS:
Final Install: 152 million
Best selling game : New Super Mario Bros with 30 million (20% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 10 of them are First party
2 platformers : 3 rpgs :2 sims: 1 Racer : 2 Puzzle
Top 10 represent 178 million units (20%) out of 909 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

And for the flip

Playstation:
Final Install: 103 million
Best selling game : Gran Turismo with 11 million (11% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 4 of them are First party
2 platformers : 3 rpgs :3 Action: 2 Racer
Top 10 represent 78 million units (8.5%) out of 962 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

Playstation 2:
Final Install: 155 million
Best selling game :Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas with 17.3 million (11% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 3 of them are First party
5 Action : 3 rpgs :2 Racer
Top 10 represent 90 million units (6%) out of 1.53 Billion software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

Playstation 3:
Final Install: 63.9 million (as of March 31, 2012)
Best selling game : Gran Turismo 5 with 7 million (11% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 7 of them are First party
2 Shooters: 1 platformers : 4 Action games: 3 Racer
Top 10 represent 92 million units (15%) out of 595 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

Playstation Portable:
Final Install: 71.3 million (as of September 14, 2011)
Best selling game :Monster Hunter Portable 3rd with 4.12 million (6% of base)
Out of the 'top 10' million sellers 2 of them are First party
1 platformers :1 fighter: 2 Racer : 6 action
Top 10 represent 27 million units (8%) out of 330 million software units sold during course of consoles lifetime.

That took longer than expected. Anyways this is not a full breakdown of the million sellers, I do not have the time nor patience for that right now, but the information I put up here simply gives an idea of trends.

Who relies on what and what is the base more interested and what rate do these numbers matter.

I have seen people talk about the top 10 lists or whatever not really giving a good picture. I disagree simply because of the numbers. When you look at Nintendo consoles the normally dominate the best sellers with first party, the amount of titles and ratios normally are between 20 to 30% of the ENTIRE INSTALL BASE the top 10 are indicative of anywhere between 20 to 30% of ALL SOFTWARE SOLD. For the PlayStation? We are normally looking at around 11%. The numbers get even more interesting when we use the entire list and so does a clearer picture of what genres the base gravitates towards.

The numbers confirm what should have been pretty obvious. Nintendo has a large following that normally purchases first party titles and concentrate around their offerings.

Sony on the other hand, doesn't. The idea that I have seen alot is that if Sony had first party studios working on Vita games that it would take off. It doesn't look that way when seeing sales numbers like this. Despite the praise Sony may get for their first party titles and the amount of titles they release, it seems that the groups that follow each franchise are smaller and doesn't give that overwhelming impression of support and following like Nintendo titles seem to have. For Sony it might be more profitable for them to court third parties and slowly build their library instead of charging in like they do with their home consoles. I would like to see more first party studios work on the Vita but that is just a personal wish.

The larger list will show a more varied selection of genre's and franchises that get attention on Sony consoles while on Nintendo the sales seem to be skewed towards particular genre and franchises.

I wish I could present all the information I collected but time will only allow me to throw this together and I just hope you seriously think about the numbers here. They only prove my point the more info is added.

 

[electroplankton]

Didn't even hear about Monster Hunter at that point.

Thats a point I think people forget about with all the "No monster on vita then its doomed" brigade. Monster Hunter wasn't there at launch, I don't even remember it being announced at that point. For all we know Soul Sacrifice might end being a system seller putting up monster hunter numbers. Better yet theres an unannounced title that will be the hot shit system seller. Who knows.

No one noticed this post?

First and foremost, Monster Hunter was announced in 2005 on PSP, so just few months after the launch. Secondly, it was not relevant as it is now; previous PS2 entries sold around half a million units, and the IP was unproven on portable hardware. Now, instead, Monster Hunter is one of the biggest IP in the market, though mainly a Japanese phenomenon. It's a brand that sells millions: Portable 3rd is approaching the 5 million mark, while 3G might well be over 2 million units when 4 will be released.

Hence, being a mid–tier game in 2005 doesn't mean anything when the IP has grown so much in the last few years. And lastly, there's no way Soul Sacrifice is going to sell similarly to Monster Hunter, no way.

What was the killer games at PSP launch that caused it to sell so well? If it was only games you can surely tell me this. Untold Legends? Darkstalkers? Lumines? What, which one of them? We have to go completely by sales so it couldn't possibly have been because of a perceived notion that Sony was a juggernaut at the time and could not fail. I mean it was surely the launch games alone that caused everyone to think it was going to finally unthrone Nintendo from the handheld market.

Just to inform you, PSP and Vita Japanese launch line–up were pretty similar; they both had Ridge Racer, Dynasty Warriors, Hot Shot Golf, a fighting game from Capcom; then, Vita had actually more games, but still: the IP that helped PSP to sell at the beginning were not enough on Vita, because things change.

More importantly, PSP had high expectations, prior and during the launch, since it would have had the prequel of Final Fantasy VII, a Grand Theft Auto, and experiences that were not possible elsewhere. Vita has nothing like that.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Not a problem. I don't have my older charts and material but I can whip some numbers up for you real quick.



And for the flip



That took longer than expected. Anyways this is not a full breakdown of the million sellers, I do not have the time nor patience for that right now, but the information I put up here simply gives an idea of trends.

Who relies on what and what is the base more interested and what rate do these numbers matter.

I have seen people talk about the top 10 lists or whatever not really giving a good picture. I disagree simply because of the numbers. When you look at Nintendo consoles the normally dominate the best sellers with first party, the amount of titles and ratios normally are between 20 to 30% of the ENTIRE INSTALL BASE the top 10 are indicative of anywhere between 20 to 30% of ALL SOFTWARE SOLD. For the PlayStation? We are normally looking at around 11%. The numbers get even more interesting when we use the entire list and so does a clearer picture of what genres the base gravitates towards.

The numbers confirm what should have been pretty obvious. Nintendo has a large following that normally purchases first party titles and concentrate around their offerings.

Sony on the other hand, doesn't. The idea that I have seen alot is that if Sony had first party studios working on Vita games that it would take off. It doesn't look that way when seeing sales numbers like this. Despite the praise Sony may get for their first party titles and the amount of titles they release, it seems that the groups that follow each franchise are smaller and doesn't give that overwhelming impression of support and following like Nintendo titles seem to have. For Sony it might be more profitable for them to court third parties and slowly build their library instead of charging in like they do with their home consoles. I would like to see more first party studios work on the Vita but that is just a personal wish.

The larger list will show a more varied selection of genre's and franchises that get attention on Sony consoles while on Nintendo the sales seem to be skewed towards particular genre and franchises.

I wish I could present all the information I collected but time will only allow me to throw this together and I just hope you seriously think about the numbers here. They only prove my point the more info is added.

This post really shouldn't go to waste at the end of this silly thread.