Dark Souls is a very good game IN SPITE of the game design and I'm not sure that sort of thing is a formula for success. Without online communities that built up completely outside of the designers control (the ridiculous precanned message system) the overwhelming majority of gamers would find that game terrible.
Resident Evil 6 - Review Thread | Activist Reviews and the Hate Patrol Destroy Truth
- Thread starter Pooya
- Start date
Riposte
Member
People who like Dark Souls probably disagree with you. The game isn't popular with a "majority of gamers" anyway.
Sounds like garbage tailored to "funnies" like you.
4 also had the longest cut-scenes of any game in the series at the time, and the most. Hmm.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
I have Demon's Souls sitting on my shelf and I can never get myself excited to play it. I don't want to be punished that hard for playing a game, although I will admit that if we were talking about survival horror that game unwittingly pulls it off really well.
I think the game's mechanics are great, and fights are really tense and make you use the entirety of the options available to you. But make one mistake and it's back to the beginning of the damn level. That's what annoys me.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Definitely agree. Games are interactive and hence people should expect to maybe put in a little bit of effort to learn them. Most games meet you way more than half way, but it's not necessarily a problem if they don't. The player has many options to gain further information about a game's systems and things they might be missing. It's crazy to me that a lifelong gamer wouldn't just try all the different inputs and combinations, especially when shown a controller diagram that's so full of information. Even if you don't read it, you at least know there's a bunch of shit to figure out.
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying on ps3 it's even worse & ruins completely some parts.
Riposte
Member
Dark Souls is a 3D Action game made by 3D action developers. "Action RPG" is just a nice way of saying games like Elder Scrolls or Kingdom of Amalur can suck and be accepted. No one is making a direct comparison anyway.
The people who love Dark Souls got through the entire game asking posting in forums, reading FAQs, and through a ton of trial and error. In any case, obscuring systems and gameplay mechanics works works in a sequel to a game where you entire audience loved it for that very reason and probably isn't a good idea for something like Resident Evil, which is pretty much the biggest remaining non nintendo franchise from Japan. I only posted the Dark Souls comment because I thought I had read a RE apologist mention it to deflect the complaints about the lack of explanation in RE6.
People are coming up with all sorts of weird-ass comparisons to either defend or further attack RE6. It's amazing really.
What is game?
Care to name any specific situations in which this is obvious? I'd like to compare myself.
Well Dark Souls and RE6 has tons in common. They have start up screen gameplay and credits. So much in common I can't handle it.
Riposte
Member
Wrong.
Especially with Dark Souls, which didn't have a convoluted weapon upgrade system (the only thing worth looking up with Demon's Souls).
There is nothing wrong in comparing the obtuse nature of two games. We are not talking about a direct comparison, just how people approach games.
In the Quicklook I could not help but notice how much Brad complained about how he could not figure out most of the mechanics until he was about 12 hours in. He was still not even aware that you could mix herbs without going into the inventory. I realize the game has issues, but a lot of his complaints seemed to stem from being frustrated by not being able to figure things out and from dying a lot. Some of us like figuring things out on our own. *shrugs* Hell, I figured it out just from playing the demo a few times and that is when I started liking the game. I agree with him on the quick time events and camera, though. But I can't fault the game for not holding your hand and leaving you to discover some of the subtleties of the gameplay for yourself. Although with the other issues, I guess I can see how that might frustrate some even more.
Brad and Patrick are clearly talking about the context sensitive stomp when playing as Jake. If you're positioned wrong when the prompt comes up and you'll stomp the back or chest, be in the right zone and you'll get the head, sometimes it still misses though.
WTF I got through the game without using guides or asking for help. Don't assume how people play a game, I loved it because it didn't hold my hand and punished rashness.
Eh, my english not helps me here... but tries to replay on both, some situations on ps3 are really ridicolous.
Extremely basic gameplay mechanics should not have to be "figured out" on your own by the player. Having just played the demo I don't see how someone would have realized or figured that out on their own. And even if you did, it's ridiculous that you'd have to figure that out for yourself. Although it would still be shitty that none of this is explained in the game, they could have at least gotten somewhat of a pass if this stuff was in the manual, which apparently (?) it's not.
Resident Evil really doesn't have much of a story at all. Story is the journey of the characters and how they grow/change with their experiences. The characters in Resident Evil never grow, because they're almost always just archetypes. Unless of course you count Chris's really forced "Is it all worth fight for" crap in RE5. Oddly enough my least favorite RE games have the best character development, Code Veronica and RE5. It hardly matters though because character motivation is practically reset every time they make another appearance.
Resident Evil is almost entirely plot driven, which in and of itself is not a bad thing. However Resident Evil's plot tends to generally be laughably stupid, the entire climax of RE5 was like an Evil Dead film in the sense that the writing and dialogue was so shitty that it was hilarious.
So what we're left with is a series where the characters are simply boring archetypes, and the plot is for the most part slapped together drivel.
I actually like the universe and the characters in Resident Evil, but I think that's mostly because I've been following the series for 17 years now.
The best writing the series ever had was in the memo's and files found in the older games.
Crysis on Ps3 is a broken mess of bugs period. Talking about how bad IA is like pointing out to a particular turd in a toilet to poit out how it stinks more than the others.
That is where some of us will simply disagree. Many here just messed around and figured all of this out, not just me. Like I said, I can see how some will hate this and become frustrated when weighed with the other issues. That is fair play, but it is simply not a complaint for me.
As for the manual, yeah, there is none. Seems they not only skimped on the box art, but there as well. Just a Resident Evil: Damnation Flyer and a warranty slip and that is all. Kind of cheap for sure.
Okay you played the entire game and figured out every little thing without posting online. Congratulations you are probably among a very very small minority. I just mean to say that From did a very poor job of explaining a lot of gameplay design and unlike some people I'm not jumping to say that was all intentional. Without this forum, I would have never known what the hell kindling even did.
Riposte
Member
Arguably the "extremely basic gameplay mechanics" don't need to be figured out solely through experimentation as the game should show you a wide list of controls. This should cover dodging and quick-shot.
Can someone put this to rest for me since I won't have the game in my hands for awhile longer: Does the game that the control layout accessible from the main menu? I also hear it shows up in loading screens (as does other tips).
EDIT: Going to take a speculative guess and assume no one reads manuals so it probably would only help a few. I mean if you can explore the option of looking in the menu, then you are probably prone to experimenting in the game.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
I'll agree with you that Capcom screwed up by not putting that stuff in the manual. Seems like a pretty standard thing to do when the controls are that intense.
I agree with this. The inventory and item select are very counterintuitive. There are tips that explain it in the loading screens, but if the game is installed they flash by so fast you can't read them anyway. Basic character movement like rolling though, it seems almost impossible to me not to discover it sooner, but I appear to be wrong.
You don't have to "figure out" how to mix herbs. Just look at the controls in the menu for 10 seconds.
Vyse The Legend
Member
Listening to the Quick Look, I agree with Brad's comments, for the most part.
Also, Patrick: that shoulder button alternating thing is exactly how you're supposed to do it. You're not suppose to quickly alternate -- although the game never fucking tells you that! Terribad.
Also, Patrick: that shoulder button alternating thing is exactly how you're supposed to do it. You're not suppose to quickly alternate -- although the game never fucking tells you that! Terribad.
Yes, you have pretty much summarized my thoughts on the whole series too.
It's a "good story" in that it fulfills its purpose for me: entertainment. The dialogue isn't very good, neither is the localization or the actual plot. But most of them have at least provided entertainment supplemental to the gameplay, which was their objective. If you found it at all interesting, there was enough extra information or background details provided for you to enjoy. If you didn't, there was enough to laugh at.
I like stories for many different reasons. I find Assassin's Creed enjoyable, even though it's complete pulp. I really enjoy the Syphon Filter series plot, even though it's fairly mundane. I enjoy The X-Files, even though... it's The X-Files. I don't need a story to be poetic or gripping in order to enjoy it, and when it comes to most media, plot is secondary for me. Why Red Blaster takes enough offense to insult over it is baffling.
Red Blaster
Member
Thank you, I am a funny. Maybe if you laid off the allegations that activist localizers ruined Leon Redfield's personality you'd like Salazar as much as the rest of us.
NBA 2K12
The frustration my point guard went through as he missed that buzzer beater was palpable.
You don't have to "figure out" how to mix herbs. Just look at the controls in the menu for 10 seconds.
The only thing I was really left to figure out is the dodge back, rolling on your back and sliding backwards. Just took a flick of the left stick while I was on my back to figure that out. Pretty standard stuff. They still should have included a manual of some sort, though. No excuse for that.
You don't have to "figure out" how to mix herbs. Just look at the controls in the menu for 10 seconds.
Like I posted in the other thread, in the demo the load screens show that so that's a non-issue there, but apparently it doesn't do that in the final game. You're not wrong, but in 2012 any sort of game mechanic that's at all important should be explained in-game. I personally probably would have looked at the control scheme prior to playing the full retail release and gotten that same information, but games over the past several years have trained people into not worrying about that, as most games will have in-game tutorials that cover anything important.
The moment a game is putting the onus on a player to figure out mechanics instead of doing it properly itself, you done fucked up. Period. You can put some blame on a person, but it's ultimately the developer's responsibility.
I do too, everything he calls out is a legitimate problem with the game. I got the rope thing first time, I think NG3 had something like this, I could be wrong. God NG3...
Not exactly allegations when they're true and actively observable, and even then, I don't have much of an issue with it. The difference isn't drastic, but there are instances where it is noticeable. I think BH4 has one of the better localizations in the series, outside of America-bashing references, changing the villain's motives and messing up some minor details that caused plot holes. Your problem seems restricted to not knowing what you're talking about or even knowing what exactly you're addressing. I've never accused translators of being "activist", and there are cases in the series where they did rather well even though, for example, they had three days to translate an entire game because the project manager failed to get the necessary material to them until right before the deadline, and so on. Sometimes translators just do bad jobs. It's nothing new.
Hey, I didn't say I found everything on my solo play through. You're assuming again. The point is it's nice that I found everything out myself whether it was through hints the game designers gave, experimentation and observation rather than have it spoonfed into me. And the reason why Dark Souls was excellent was because the game was designed around not telling the player anything, besides the bare minimum. How well a player does depends on how much information they can pick up, and using it to get through challenges. Design is the least of the game's problem, the problem is the technical incompetence.
Wait, so what is a manual for?
If you're forced to play a game you're not enjoying for 12 hours in one day, the next day you'll likely be "finding things to hate on." Context is important.
Sorry. I should've clarified. Solely. A manual should always be a supplement. A quick source guide. However, when it becomes a primary source because the game sucks at teach stuff, then.... there's a problem.
IC_Champion
Member
I wondered if it was just me that didn't get a manual to this game.
Not in mine. Just a Resident Evil: Damnation flyer and a 2 page warranty slip/leaflet.
I'm assuming that you were part of a community and did not play in a vacuum, that is all. You may have played solo and not asked for any help, but you had questions that were answered in a thread. I like plenty of games that reward experimentation and don't handhold the player but I don't think that approach works for something like RE6. Either way, it don't matter, gamefly sent the game and I'll judge for myself.
not even a piece of paper with a F'ing RE logo.
Just some random legal text. A new low.
Euro or US? I have the Euro steelbook so if you have the regular Euro version... maybe the control leaflet is a steelbook bonus? Hahaha.
That makes more sense. The designers need to be good enough to be able to teach concepts subtly and practically, much like how Portal is designed, I can agree with that.