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[CharlieDigital]

Its a completely valid argument. Maybe you've been out if the loop but basketball refs have been the most corrupt officials, and the most inept, in American sports.

I shall just keep this on the clipboard:

This argument again?

It's too easy to defeat.

Should we play the game without refs?

No?

Do the refs have the power to call a foul?

Yes?

Then by proxy, do they have the power to not call a "fake" foul or a flop?

Yes?

"Bu..bu..bu they're corrupt!"

Well, sure, but you already accept that they can call a foul. So you must also accept that they can choose to not call contact as a foul as well.

 

[Jarlaxle]

The whole act of drawing a charge or flopping is a defensive strategy aimed specifically at those two goals and fully within the rules of the game since we consider a foul an infraction of the rules.

I guess we'll just have to disagree then. I have no problem with drawing a charge. The player is putting themselves in a position to make the opposing player create an offensive foul.

Flopping is designed to make the appearance of a foul being committed when no such thing actually happens.

I think flopping cheapens the game and the integrity of the sport. I don't think it has any place in the game and any and all actions to remove it are welcome.

I want to watch basketball being played right. Not some stage play of basketball.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I shall just keep this on the clipboard:

This argument again?

It's too easy to defeat.

Should we play the game without refs?

No?

Do the refs have the power to call a foul?

Yes?

Then by proxy, do they have the power to not call a "fake" foul or a flop?

Yes?

"Bu..bu..bu they're corrupt!"

Well, sure, but you already accept that they can call a foul. So you must also accept that they can choose to not call contact as a foul as well.

Except that the NBA is the organization that gives the refs the authority to call fouls so it should have the ability to take authority from refs.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I guess we'll just have to disagree then. I have no problem with drawing a charge. The player is putting themselves in a position to make the opposing player create an offensive foul.

Flopping is designed to make the appearance of a foul being committed when no such thing actually happens.

I think flopping cheapens the game and the integrity of the sport. I don't think it has any place in the game and any and all actions to remove it are welcome.

I want to watch basketball being played right. Not some stage play of basketball.

That's fine, but you can still agree that the officials already have the power to fix this since the officials have the authority to decide if a particular incident of contact is a foul or not.

Except that the NBA is the organization that gives the refs the authority to call fouls so it should have the ability to take authority from refs.

This statement does not make any sense.

 

[Red Blaster]

That's fine, but you can still agree that the officials already have the power to fix this since the officials have the authority to decide if a particular incident of contact is a foul or not.

The issue has been that the officials have demonstrated that they don't care to fix it since they keep calling flops. But since you seem to be of the (wrong) opinion that flops are oka there's no reason to argue with you.

Stern said over 3 years ago that there would be penalties given out for flopping but nothing ever materialized until this summer.

 

[The Frankman]

This statement does not make any sense.

How? On what planet does it not? The NBA controls the refs and calls. They absolutely have the authority to and have done so in the past (more travels/palming, Flagrant I/II fouls/etc.)

I'm stunned. I'm just stunned is argument is even happening.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

That's fine, but you can still agree that the officials already have the power to fix this since the officials have the authority to decide if a particular incident of contact is a foul or not.



This statement does not make any sense.

Have you watched a game in person? It can be hard as fuck to discern a flop from contact. Refs should more or less try to make the correct call, fining players for trying to trick them is great.

Flopping is a few steps away from throwing down smoke bombs and telling the ref your shot went in. Refs shouldn't be in a position to separate fake from reality, but rather if contact is severe enough to warrant a whistle.

 

[DY_nasty]

I shall just keep this on the clipboard:

This argument again?

It's too easy to defeat.

Should we play the game without refs?

No?

Do the refs have the power to call a foul?

Yes?

Then by proxy, do they have the power to not call a "fake" foul or a flop?

Yes?

your line of logic is childish

How is "play without refs" even the first in the line? You want a solution, right? This is a valid one. Along with fining players for other various actions on and off the court that damage the game. Also, drawing a charge or pulling the chair is faaaaar from the things that take place now. Blake almost injured someone flopping just this playoffs. Players attacking the rim don't even try to score anymore - they work the refs more than rim. Refs shouldn't be put in that position to begin with. Thats the issue.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

That's fine, but you can still agree that the officials already have the power to fix this since the officials have the authority to decide if a particular incident of contact is a foul or not.



This statement does not make any sense.

Every single corporation ever has the ability to remove responsibility from a certain group of employees that they decide are incompetent at certain parts of their jobs. Why should the NBA not be able to remove the responsibility of deciding flops from refs if they believe the refs are incompetent at properly calling flopping?

 

[CharlieDigital]

The issue has been that the officials have demonstrated that they don't care to fix it since they keep calling flops. But since you seem to be of the (wrong) opinion that flops are oka there's no reason to argue with you.

Do you guys not see that when player contact occurs, there can be two outcomes: a call and a non-call.

By proxy of giving the refs the authority and responsibility to make a call, you also give him the authority and responsibility to not make a call.

It's a simple as that. If they are failing at it, the league already conducts official reviews and grades the referees. They simply need to factor this into their grading scheme.

Have you watched a game in person?

Sadly, yes, many a Nets game at Continental Izod

Again, the argument is weak because you are counting on the refs in the same paced game to make the call if there is legitimate contact. Therefore, they also have the right and ability to not make the call. If they can spot legitimate contact and infractions (i.e. step out of bounds, kick balls, double dribble, etc) in such a fast paced game, then it is no different with flops -- the pace of the game doesn't get any faster when there is a flop.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

The issue has been that the officials have demonstrated that they don't care to fix it since they keep calling flops. But since you seem to be of the (wrong) opinion that flops are oka there's no reason to argue with you.

Stern said over 3 years ago that there would be penalties given out for flopping but nothing ever materialized until this summer.

in all fairness

1) he had better things to do like end calls for when players would draw shooting fouls by jumping into defenders while shooting that was a lot worse than flopping.

2) quite a few star players made it a part of their arsenal and it was becoming way to prevalent within the league.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Do you guys not see that when player contact occurs, there can be two outcomes: a call and a non-call.

By proxy of giving the refs the authority and responsibility to make a call, you also give him the authority and responsibility to not make a call.

It's a simple as that. If they are failing at it, the league already conducts official reviews and grades the referees. They simply need to factor this into their grading scheme.

But what if these refs are the best that the NBA can get and are simply unable to judge all parts of the game properly due to the speed and complexity of the game?

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Refs can't always discern a flop from a foul, don't think that's the case because they don't try. Some flops don't get called becuase of poor acting. If the refs can't differentiate a flop from a foul even after being made aware of it and looking for it then something else must be done.

 

[The Frankman]

Do you guys not see that when player contact occurs, there can be two outcomes: a call and a non-call.

By proxy of giving the refs the authority and responsibility to make a call, you also give him the authority and responsibility to not make a call.

It's a simple as that. If they are failing at it, the league already conducts official reviews and grades the referees. They simply need to factor this into their grading scheme.

But you seem to not understand flopping IS NOT A PART OF THE GAME. The NBA is not soccer. It has never been soccer. And even soccer is trying to clean up excessive flopping. That is the stumbling block you're not understanding.

The NBA (as Zeus Molecules stated) has started to eliminate some forms of flopping already. The next step was a deterrent for classic repeat offenders.

 

[CharlieDigital]

But what if these refs are the best that the NBA can get and are simply unable to judge all parts of the game properly due to the speed and complexity of the game?

Then you can make that argument for every single call they make.

A ridiculous argument.

But you seem to not understand flopping IS NOT A PART OF THE GAME.

A simple question: is drawing a foul a part of the game?

 

[Red Blaster]

CD this is worse than the time you tried to argue Mono Lopez was better than Andrew Bynum

 

[CharlieDigital]

CD this is worse than the time you tried to argue Mono Lopez was better than Andrew Bynum

We'll see how he does this year without two All-Stars to take the pressure off of him.

I argue that his offensive skillset is immature and his defensive skillset is lacking with many of his weaknesses covered by virtue of being on a stacked team with superior coaching.

 

[Future PhaZe]

His D is trash but as a first option he's going to put up really impressive numbers. His offense is nothing to scoff at.

 

[SUPREME1]

To be clear, and I'm certain many of you guys are clouded here, I'm not defending flopping per se.

It is a valid defensive strategy, in my opinion, but I don't hold it strongly.

Smh.

 

[The Frankman]

A simple question: is drawing a foul a part of the game?

Are you equating drawing fouls as the same thing as flopping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8TBlLx0PxU

Totally part of the game!

 

[Jarlaxle]

His D is trash but as a first option he's going to put up really impressive numbers. His offense is nothing to scoff at.

Agreed. I think he'll probably put up career numbers this year as the primary option and also being in the weaker east will probably help as well.

 

[linsivvi]

CharlieDigital: NBA's official flopping defense force.

I shall just keep this on the clipboard:

This argument again?

It's too easy to defeat.

Should we play the game without refs?

No?

Do the refs have the power to call a foul?

Yes?

Then by proxy, do they have the power to not call a "fake" foul or a flop?

Yes?

A flop is an attempt to fool the refs into calling a foul. Last year when they could clearly see that it's a flop, they ignored the flop and let the game continue. The end result was usually a disadvantage to the team whose player flopped, since they were now playing 4 on 5.

So no, the refs don't call it a foul, but they penalize the flopper by ignoring it.

What the league is doing here is to review tapes and punish the floppers, hopefully discourage them. Flops have become so advanced that refs on the floor can't always spot it in real time, even if they were more competent than they are right now. If you don't punish them, you're saying floppers should get rewarded as long as they are good at it and manage to fool the refs in real time.

There's no suspension or even technical awarded right now. This is far from excessive by any reasonable measure.

If anything, YOU are the kosmo of this thread, not Frankman, who plays the role of angry Knicks fan just fine.

 

[theignoramus]

to be honest, the arm flail or the verbal flop, like what Pau does 100% of the time he's in the paint doesnt annoy me all that much. it's dudes trying to draw flagrants that really piss me off.

 

[Red Blaster]

to be honest, the arm flail or the verbal flop, like what Pau does 100% of the time he's in the paint doesnt annoy me all that much. it's dudes trying to draw flagrants that really piss me off.

This annoyed me so much when Dwight was on the Magic

of course the NBA only does something about it after he gets traded

 

[Omega]

George Mikan would be rolling over in his grave as we speak.

wow, I heard about the double flop but never saw it

lol. also, i love how you guys are posting quotes from players supporting these anti-flopping rules even though they are the most habitual floppers in the league

 

[Zeus Molecules]

wow, I heard about the double flop but never saw it

lol. also, i love how you guys are posting quotes from players supporting these anti-flopping rules even though they are the most habitual floppers in the league

What can they say? They support flopping, thats like coming out and saying you support fapping. Yeah people know that it happens a lot and everyone may or may not do it but you can't give it 2 thumbs up during an interview because at its core its a dirty secret.

 

[Dominican Power]

You want to stop flopping? Stop calling those bull shit ticky tac fouls. The game needs to be more physical, maybe then we won't have all these players being best friends on the court when one of their "so called" buddies knocks them on their ass. It's like they don't want to go this route because of the silly perception that white fans might have of the predominately black NBA.

 

[etiolate]

The refs should be calling the correct calls to begin with, but flopping has been a reaction to the increase of superstar calls. It's sorta fighting fire with fire, but the fire here is bullshit. The issue with the escalation of flopping is that the defensive players started doing it to counter the star treatment that left them in a bad position and then the offensive players started doing it to get back at the defensive flops. So the bullshit lead to more bullshit and then bullshit was done in retaliation.

IF the fines are intended to curb the flops then the superstar call issue will become a bigger point of argument as that is square one of the problem.

If the fines are just going to be done for one year as a show of face and then everything go back to as it was before, then the players may just keep quiet for the year and wait until Stern is done pretending like his shit is legit. (See traveling calls post-international play embarrassment.)

 

[Omega]

You want to stop flopping? Stop calling those bull shit ticky tac fouls. The game needs to be more physical, maybe then we won't have all these players being best friends on the court when one of their "so called" buddies knocks them on their ass. It's like they don't want to go this route because of the silly perception that white fans might have of the predominately black NBA.

it is the reason. ever since Malace at the Palace the game has been bitch mode.

which always got me wondering, white people probably embrace the fighting more than anyone. I mean..they watch hockey and that shit is UFC on ice compared to basketball

 

[DY_nasty]

Now that I'm reading it again, I just don't think CD is arguing the same thing as everyone else.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

it is the reason. ever since Malace at the Palace the game has been bitch mode.

which always got me wondering, white people probably embrace the fighting more than anyone. I mean..they watch hockey and that shit is UFC on ice compared to basketball

Say, what?

 

[DY_nasty]

Say, what?

Some of my best friends are white

 

[CherryWoodFuton]

There's people arguing that the league shouldn't punish flopping??????
Whatisthisidonteven

 

[DominoKid]

it is the reason. ever since Malace at the Palace the game has been bitch mode.

which always got me wondering, white people probably embrace the fighting more than anyone. I mean..they watch hockey and that shit is UFC on ice compared to basketball

wonder what the difference is between the NBA and the NHL...

 

[The Frankman]

If anything, YOU are the kosmo of this thread, not Frankman, who plays the role of angry Knicks fan just fine.

wow, I heard about the double flop but never saw it

lol. also, i love how you guys are posting quotes from players supporting these anti-flopping rules even though they are the most habitual floppers in the league

Zep called Kobe out on his shit, and I had to find the double flop for Harden. But you know what? At least guys like Harden and BDiddy were honest, they knew they were flopping. Guys like Anderson Varejao, Rudy Fernandez and to a lesser extent Pau Gasol piss me off.

You want to stop flopping? Stop calling those bull shit ticky tac fouls. The game needs to be more physical, maybe then we won't have all these players being best friends on the court when one of their "so called" buddies knocks them on their ass. It's like they don't want to go this route because of the silly perception that white fans might have of the predominately black NBA.

I miss the days when you could clothesline a fool going to the basket.

Good hard foul!

Spoiler

Ok I'm swinging the pendulum too far the other way I know.

 

[giri]

You cannot make the argument "the refs suck!" as a valid argument because then why have them in the first place?

Great argument, would debate again/10

I don't see it this way at all.

It's clever to me in the same way that a magic trick is clever.

Pack shit up folks, we've got a great debater on our hands here with a winning argument! We should look at a professional sport like magic! Next, we'll add rainbows. And magnets. Cause magnets work by magic too!

or you're just a stupid troll.

SMH, NBA-age. you all got trolled incredibly hard.

How bored are you?

 

[diehard]

it's not racist if you're talking about white people.

 

[The Frankman]

Pack shit up folks, we've got a great debater on our hands here with a winning argument! We should look at a professional sport like magic! Next, we'll add rainbows. And magnets. Cause magnets work by magic too!

or you're just a stupid troll.

SMH, NBA-age. you all got trolled incredibly hard.

How bored are you?

It's easier to say he's a moron. Or an alt of Opiate's. Either works, why bail him out by saying he's trolling? Guy makes dumb statements, he's a troll! I never see you people calling NeoVacs or Triple L/Quad L's trolls.

it's not racist if you're talking about white people.

All of you are racists. Except me of course, 'cause I'm black.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

it's not racist if you're talking about white people.

Won't somebody please think of the white people!

 

[Jeff-DSA]

it's not racist if you're talking about white people.

Good thing white people generally aren't worth talking about...EXCEPT FOR G-TYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYMMMMMMME!

 

[giri]

Won't somebody please think of the white people!

It's why i'm going to vote for sterling. Finally someone who understands the white man.

 

[The Frankman]

Good thing white people generally aren't worth talking about...EXCEPT FOR G-TYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYMMMMMMME!

He's so sad to see that.

 

[SUPREME1]

Now that I'm reading it again, I just don't think CD is arguing the same thing as everyone else.

I see it as CD arguing that better officiating would fix the issue of flopping (via non-calls).

Except he's not realizing that the officiating is what it is. It can improve some, but it's not going to imrpove to the point where the problem is resolved. That's due to the limitations of the refs. They can only perform as well as their bodies and minds will allow.

That won't remove the flops that are slick enough to fool the refs. But a later review of the footage could result in a fine (or count towards a total) which would cause players to think twice.

I'd rather they go the route of calling techs in game, but that still leaves the stuff that isn't caught or called (on purpose or not). That route also gives refs, who already have issues keeping their impact on a game to a minimum, more power to wield.

So yeah, not sure what the perfect solution would be, but simply asking the refs to officiate better probably isn't going to be enough.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

He's so sad to see that.

Jimmer isn't white.

 

[giri]

Jimmer isn't white.

What is he?

 

[The Frankman]

What is he?

I think what Jeff-DSA is saying is that Jimmer is terrible at shooting 3's now, so he can't be white.

 

[theignoramus]

Minny's interior defense sucks balls. I just had a wild ass shootout against the Heat with K-Love going 13-19 from three and Barea chipping in with 4 of his own and I still lost. I got alley ooped to death and bent over for over 5 dozen points in the paint.

 

[diehard]

Jimmer;

now that's a mormon i want to vote for.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I think what Jeff-DSA is saying is that Jimmer is terrible at shooting 3's now, so he can't be white.

That's not even racist.

 

[Rodeo Clown]

Minny's interior defense sucks balls.

Yeah, but once Ricky gets back, he'll help mask that.