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[Gemüsepizza]

Mario Galaxy and MP3 look amazing relative to their hardware. Also, NextBox & Ps4 downports.

It does not work like this. A downport of a PS4 and Xbox 3 title still needs massive optimizations to look good. You can't just take away effects and resolution and think that's it. And it will still look nowhere as good as an exclusive title with a Halo 4 budget.

 

[Durante]

It does not work like this. A downport of a PS4 and Xbox 3 title still needs massive optimizations to look good. You can't just take away effects and resolution and think that's it.

Well, considering the rumoured GPU specs of Orbis and Durango (which are pretty sad in their own right), taking away effects and resolution may actually suffice in many cases.

With the question of downports I'd be far more concerned about CPU performance at this point. The gap is probably at least as large as the GPU gap (if not larger), and CPU usage is much harder to scale.

 

[frankie_baby]

What do you mean with "architecture"? He is right. The jump is not as big as from PS2-PS3: On games were no changes have been made, they had no problems to increase resolution. But that's not were it ended. They also launched with games that had increased resolution and increased effects. On Wii U right now we have multiplat games without increased resolution and without increased effects.



The interesting question is: Will any Wii U exclusive come close to a budget like Halo 4? I don't think so. Yet people are still expecting a similiar jump like PDZ to Halo 4 on the Wii U.

I do hope someone puts that kind of money behind a wii u game though it might be unlikely but you never know, perhaps zombi u will be some massive mega hit (it should at least be a million seller but how much more who knows) and it gets a massive budget sequel, or maybe Nintendo puts some vast budget into Zelda (tp was the biggest budget game Nintendo ever made at the time not sure about ss)

 

[lwilliams3]

Resistance, fight night, kameo,perfect dark, condemned, and even direct ports like gun and American wasteland shitted on what ever on PS2/GC/Xbox.

These type of statements keeps coming along, but there are several reasons why things are the way there are.

1) The Wii U is NOT a full generational leap from current-gen in terms of raw power, so comparing xbox to first-gen 360 games is already going to be a bit faulty. Even Sony and Microsoft may arguably have smaller generational leaps, but time will tell.

2) The Wii U also is architecturally different from current-gen systems. Since it doesn't have such a massive boost of power over the other systems, devs can not simply brute-force better graphics like they did for some of those early 360 games.

3) Devs are still experimenting with the Wii U Gamepad, and at least some manpower and resources are going into that. The second screen could require twice the rendering power if the gamepad is rendering different screens of the same environment (like Black Ops multiplayer), but it heavily depends on the usage.

4) Budget costs is more of an issue than before, and it will take more effort and power to get notable improves due to diminishing returns being more of a factor as consoles and PC get stronger.

Developers will eventually be able to show more of the Wii U's abilities, but it may take a bit longer than most of new-gen consoles in the past.

 

[LCGeek]

It does not work like this. A downport of a PS4 and Xbox 3 title still needs massive optimizations to look good. You can't just take away effects and resolution and think that's it. And it will still look nowhere as good as an exclusive title with a Halo 4 budget.

Instead of merely mentioning the budget in passing how about mentioning it size in money, the size of the team, and the various people at the new who have tons of experience.

Also what you mentioned about graphics is true far more for pc ports done well in comparison to their console brothers. If you're on a console for high end graphics you're in the wrong spot. Things can look good but as long as a console limits what output a user is aiming for it always be edges out by a more open platform and good dev talent.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Well, considering the rumoured GPU specs of Orbis and Durango (which are pretty sad in their own right), taking away effects and resolution may actually suffice in many cases.

With the question of downports I'd be far more concerned about CPU performance at this point. The gap is probably at least as large as the GPU gap (if not larger), and CPU usage is much harder to scale.

Durante i was wondering what sort of GPU you were looking for in next gen consoles .
Lets say we go with the leak specs that had PS4 at 2TFLOPS how much more were you expecting .
I know there is more to it than FLOP count but easiest way to ask .

Truth is i see devs sticking to 720p ( hope i wrong )which is another reason why i think Wii U ports might suffer.

 

[Fourth Storm]

The interesting question is: Will any Wii U exclusive come close to a budget like Halo 4? I don't think so. Yet people are still expecting a similiar jump like PDZ to Halo 4 on the Wii U.

Does a game really require a Halo 4 budget for that level of graphical fidelity? I argue no. Much of Halo 4's budget also goes to cinematics, music, voice acting, and marketing.

Yes, Wii U developers will have to invest more time into their engines and increase their asset and programming output more than we have seen thus far, but to say a Halo budget is required for that level of visuals...I just don't see it.

 

[DCharlie]

Does a game really require a Halo 4 budget for that level of graphical fidelity? I argue no. Much of Halo 4's budget also goes to cinematics, music, voice acting, and marketing.

Yes, Wii U developers will have to invest more time into their engines and increase their asset and programming output more than we have seen thus far, but to say a Halo budget is required for that level of visuals...I just don't see it.

once you factor in art asset creation then , yes, things are going to be expensive

 

[Durante]

Durante i was wondering what sort of GPU you were looking for in next gen consoles .
Lets say we go with the leak specs that had PS4 at 2TFLOPS how much more were you expecting .
I know there is more to it than FLOP count but easiest way to ask .

Truth is i see devs sticking to 720p ( hope i wrong )which is another reason why i think Wii U ports might suffer.

Personally, I'd hope for consoles that are similarly advanced, and have a similar TDP compared to 360/PS3 when they were released. 2 TF would be ok, but I thought the last rumour was 1.8, and less for Durango.

As you say, Flops aren't everything. What I really would like to see are a good number of ROPs, so image quality won't have to suffer too much.

 

[BlankaBR]

In my opinion the problem is that even if the Wii U get the same games as the ps4 and xbox 720, they gonna look worst than those plataforms, and people will be comparing saying how much better the game looks on x or y systems...And people always look for the best performance versions. The point is how much worst will the games look

 

[Durante]

In my opinion the problem is that even if the Wii U get the same games as the ps4 and xbox 720, they gonna look worst than those plataforms, and people will be comparing saying how much better the game looks on x or y systems...And people always look for the best performance versions. The point is how much worst will the games look

I'd love that to be the case, but if this was generally true, we'd have more PC gamers. If it can get feature-equivalent ports, then graphical differences probably don't matter too much for a large part of the market.

 

[Drinky Crow]

every time i see "gpgpu" dropped in this thread i become acutely aware that you idiots have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Alebrije]

In my opinion the problem is that even if the Wii U get the same games as the ps4 and xbox 720, they gonna look worst than those plataforms, and people will be comparing saying how much better the game looks on x or y systems...And people always look for the best performance versions. The point is how much worst will the games look

What "people"? most of users/gamers do not give a f..k about graphic performance, specially the Nintendo users.

 

[BlankaBR]

I'd love that to be the case, but if this was generally true, we'd have more PC gamers. If it can get feature-equivalent ports, then graphical differences probably don't matter too much for a large part of the market.

I know but pcs are very expensive and they dont have the same library of games as consoles

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

We will no longer have the pleasure of hearing your insightful comments for a while. Let us never forget.

Do people believe they step down from 720/PS4 will be comparable to this generation? Honest question.

 

[BlankaBR]

What "people"? most of users/gamers do not give a f..k about graphic performance, specially the Nintendo users that only care for Marios , Zeldas, etc.

Thats not true!

 

[lwilliams3]

In my opinion the problem is that even if the Wii U get the same games as the ps4 and xbox 720, they gonna look worst than those plataforms, and people will be comparing saying how much better the game looks on x or y systems...And people always look for the best performance versions. The point is how much worst will the games look

It is not that simple..otherwise the PS2 wouldn't have been as popular as it was.

 

[Fourth Storm]

once you factor in art asset creation then , yes, things are going to be expensive

More expensive, yes. That's why Nintendo have been beefing up their studios. But Halo 4 is an extreme in spending. It does look great, but there are many factors at work there besides sheer manpower to create the so-called "illusion," including alot of good direction and know-how. We've seen some graphically amazing titles (all of which blow away PD Zero, which the original point) with a fraction of that budget this gen. I think we can agree on that. How long is Halo 4's campaign anyway? If you were to ask me if I expected Nintendo to shell out the cash for, say, a 15 hour campaign of that caliber with unique environments, scripted encounters, plus all the audio and CG intermixed to create that illusion of realism, I would answer 'probably not" but then we start getting into design philosophies and such. Wii U seems to possess the hardware to surpass Halo 4 in the right hands (and with a lower budget than said title), so that in individual scenes, things like texture resolution, image quality, and lighting can all be increased.

 

[Dictator93]

Anyone find it really suspicious that we do not know much about this thing at is gonna launch soon?

Is this normal for nintendo to hide all of its hardware specs for so long?

 

[frankie_baby]

Anyone find it really suspicious that we do not know much about this thing at is gonna launch soon?

Is this normal for nintendo to hide all of its hardware specs for so long?

I'm surprised we've had this much info out of them

 

[jmizzal]

Anyone find it really suspicious that we do not know much about this thing at is gonna launch soon?

Is this normal for nintendo to hide all of its hardware specs for so long?

Yes its normal

 

[Alebrije]

Anyone find it really suspicious that we do not know much about this thing at is gonna launch soon?

Is this normal for nintendo to hide all of its hardware specs for so long?

as far as I remember there was similar speculation with the Wii even after lauch numbers were uncertain. I do not rememeber abput the Gamecube but guess was the same.

Nintendo does not talk about spect numbers since N64.....

 

[eternalb]

Nintendo does not talk about spect numbers since N64.....

That's not true. Nintendo released very comprehensive specs for the GameCube, even updating them at 2001's E3 when they modified the speeds of the CPU and graphics card.

 

[Fourth Storm]

That's not true. Nintendo released very comprehensive specs for the GameCube, even updating them at 2001's E3 when they modified the speeds of the CPU and graphics card.

A time long passed...

 

[TheMink]

Idk where to post this, but if you guys care i saw a gigantic box at a couple of local gamestops with the nintendo logo on it.

Likely a kiosk of some kind.

 

[Diablos54]

That's not true. Nintendo released very comprehensive specs for the GameCube, even updating them at 2001's E3 when they modified the speeds of the CPU and graphics card.

They posted real world numbers, while Sony/MS didn't, hence why a lot of people though the PS2 was stronger than the GC. I assume that's part of the reason we don't get specs from Nintendo anymore.

 

[AOC83]

Nintendo does not talk about spect numbers since N64.....

No, since the Wii, and we all know why.

 

[soulassssns]

I love (sarcasm) how these discussion always get twisted into 720/PS4 threads.

 

[frankie_baby]

They posted real world numbers, while Sony/MS didn't, hence why a lot of people though the PS2 was stronger than the GC. I assume that's part of the reason we don't get specs from Nintendo anymore.

I wonder if things may have turned out differently (even only slightly) if Nintendo used Sony's way of giving performance numbers

 

[Lord Error]

once you factor in art asset creation then , yes, things are going to be expensive

With kickass hardware and crazy talent you can create great stuff even with small budget. Just look at that Reset trailer, it looks pretty much better than anything, and visuals were programmed by a single person. But a major reason for it looking so good is that it's targeted to run on a cutting edge hardware available today, so he didn't have to spend ages approximating some effects that normally wouldn't be possible

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

No, since the Wii, and we all know why.

It started with GC in a sense, when they started giving conservative "in game" specs but that sort of blew up in their faces when they'd get compared to peak theoretical performance on PS2/Xbox.

Really though, DS was the first that they started hiding specs/chips with.

 

[Saint Gregory]

So what I've learned from this thread (again) is that lazy console to PC ports that don't look or run any better means that my dual-gpu/i7 PC is on par with current gen. Thanks for the info guys!

The WiiU isn't going to be as powerful as the PS4/720 but using this crop of launch games to try to judge how much weaker it is isn't smart.

every time i see "gpgpu" dropped in this thread i become acutely aware that you idiots have no idea what you're talking about

I'm sure that you're a very busy crow but why do you keep post-bombing the thread every few pages and disappearing? If you have something that you'd like to share please hang around and discuss.

 

[Durante]

So what I've learned from this thread (again) is that lazy console to PC ports that don't look or run any better means that my dual-gpu/i7 PC is on par with current gen. Thanks for the info guys!

That's just not an accurate simile. 99.9% of PC ports run or look better than their console counterparts.

 

[Alebrije]

It started with GC in a sense, when they started giving conservative "in game" specs but that sort of blew up in their faces when they'd get compared to peak theoretical performance on PS2/Xbox.

Really though, DS was the first that they started hiding specs/chips with.

That´s what I was talking, they started that behavior with the Gamecube in home consoles.

 

[specialguy]

Saw this gamespot video in my feed today, seems to apply to some of our recurring debates here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnw9PPUSuA&feature=g-u-u

MOH looks roughly the same on PC or 360. Sure up close or image analysis will review PC superiority, but anyway.

This is what we're going to see next gen too. Nullifying imo most of the "but PC's will dominate PS4/720 anyway" sentiment. They will in specs but not visuals on the ground.

 

[BDGAME]

What do you mean with "architecture"? He is right. The jump is not as big as from PS2-PS3: On games were no changes have been made, they had no problems to increase resolution. But that's not were it ended. They also launched with games that had increased resolution and increased effects. On Wii U right now we have multiplat games without increased resolution and without increased effects.



The interesting question is: Will any Wii U exclusive come close to a budget like Halo 4? I don't think so. Yet people are still expecting a similiar jump like PDZ to Halo 4 on the Wii U.

Wii U is more powerful than 360, so, it's possible make a game with similar or better look with a budget smaller than Halo 4.

I'm not a Halo player. Is this game have better visual than Uncharted 3?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I really do feel sorry for PC guys there only hope is that PS4\720 as powerful as possible so they can really start using there hardware .
When it comes to that Wii U is not going to be no help .

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Saw this gamespot video in my feed today, seems to apply to some of our recurring debates here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnw9PPUSuA&feature=g-u-u

MOH looks roughly the same on PC or 360. Sure up close or image analysis will review PC superiority, but anyway.

This is what we're going to see next gen too. Nullifying imo most of the "but PC's will dominate PS4/720 anyway" sentiment. They will in specs but not visuals on the ground.

"I turned off all anti-aliasing for this.."

*closes tab*

 

[Shadowhaxor]

Saw this gamespot video in my feed today, seems to apply to some of our recurring debates here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnw9PPUSuA&feature=g-u-u

MOH looks roughly the same on PC or 360. Sure up close or image analysis will review PC superiority, but anyway.

This is what we're going to see next gen too. Nullifying imo most of the "but PC's will dominate PS4/720 anyway" sentiment. They will in specs but not visuals on the ground.

Did you really just say that based off of one game? I find this hardly nullifying since this a port of a console game to the PC and not the other way around.

 

[AzaK]

every time i see "gpgpu" dropped in this thread i become acutely aware that you idiots have no idea what you're talking about

Every time I see Drinky Cow in this thread I become acutely aware of how much of an idiot you are and of how little you contribute. Care to elaborate?

 

[Saint Gregory]

That's just not an accurate simile. 99.9% of PC ports run or look better than their console counterparts.

You're right, the vast majority do but not all. I would never blame my PC for a port not blowing away the console version however.

The WiiU clearly doesn't have the juice to brute force 1080P/60fps in the PS360 ports it's getting but that doesn't automatically equate to the WiiU not being capable of running those games in 1080P/60fps.

There are any number of reasons why we're not seeing the jump one would expect in quality in multiplat games at the moment but the WiiU being too weak is only one possibility.

I really do feel sorry for PC guys there only hope is that PS4\720 as powerful as possible so they can really start using there hardware .
When it comes to that Wii U is not going to be no help .

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...

 

[I Stalk Alone]

Saw this gamespot video in my feed today, seems to apply to some of our recurring debates here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnw9PPUSuA&feature=g-u-u

MOH looks roughly the same on PC or 360. Sure up close or image analysis will review PC superiority, but anyway.

This is what we're going to see next gen too. Nullifying imo most of the "but PC's will dominate PS4/720 anyway" sentiment. They will in specs but not visuals on the ground.

You know the guy was running the game on a gtx285 and being a direct x 10.1 card it might also not show all the proper bells and whistles compared to a DX 11 version. the gtx 285 is only about as fast as a HD7770 using the latest drivers on DX 10.1 games. I don't know what cpu the person was using but if it was a balanced system then the rig is probably 5x the power of the 360 so the game should be running on pc 1080p at 60fps and maybe at ultra settings but the person in the demo turned off AA which is fitting I guess for the comparison to the 360 so the visual difference we see is about right based on the fact that it is a GTX 285.


A pc GPU 5x more powerful than a targeted PS4 or durango would probably be in the ballpark of a future HD9xxx series probably the HD98XX and certainly the HD99XX sku's sometime in early 2014 just a few months after those consoles release and probably my next card.

 

[LCGeek]

Anyone find it really suspicious that we do not know much about this thing at is gonna launch soon?

Is this normal for nintendo to hide all of its hardware specs for so long?

This is the norm since Wii and been a while this way if you look at knowledge about their handhelds vs what we have had out of their consoles.

If you think it's suspicious for console company to do this start knocking the others. All of them are bad compared to say ati, nvidia, ibm, intel and other companies whose products have pdfs with a lot more detail than consoles sites care to give or focus on. Specs now are nothing more than posturing for most platforms. Very rarely does the performance maximum a product preaches get realized this is true of pcs, of smartphones, and now after this generation becoming norm for consoles.

 

[I Stalk Alone]

This is the norm since Wii and been a while this way if you look at knowledge about their handhelds vs what we have had out of their consoles.

If you think it's suspicious for console company to do this start knocking the others. All of them are bad compared to say ati, nvidia, ibm, intel and other companies whose products have pdfs with a lot more detail than consoles sites care to give or focus on. Specs now are nothing more than posturing for most platforms. Very rarely does the performance maximum a product preaches get realized this is true of pcs, of smartphones, and now after this generation becoming norm for consoles.

Since the age of twitter, Facebook and all other forms of social media, as well as the advent of smartphones, tablets and other wired devices, news travels exponentially faster to more people than it did before. The days of announcing years in advance are long gone and months of previews will now be boiled down to an apple like unveiling a couple of months before release and a full blowout a mere two weeks before release.

 

[blu]

Is any good footage of the demo out there?
Sadly, from what I saw back then I had a very hard time judging anything because of the low video quality.

Not good quality, but it shows essentially the entire sequence from start through end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHUwDShrD4 (slightly better color balance)

Also, there's a framegrabbed (partial) footage of the demo as shown at the conference, i.e. an older build, missing some effects and a few sequences differ. You can find that in the related videos column.

 

[MDX]

These type of statements keeps coming along, but there are several reasons why things are the way there are.

1) The Wii U is NOT a full generational leap from current-gen in terms of raw power, so comparing xbox to first-gen 360 games is already going to be a bit faulty. Even Sony and Microsoft may arguably have smaller generational leaps, but time will tell.

2) The Wii U also is architecturally different from current-gen systems. Since it doesn't have such a massive boost of power over the other systems, devs can not simply brute-force better graphics like they did for some of those early 360 games.

Problem is, you cant claim one, when claiming two.
In other words, if the architecture is different, we dont know what to expect in terms of raw power.

 

[LCGeek]

Since the age of twitter, Facebook and all other forms of social media, as well as the advent of smartphones, tablets and other wired devices, news travels exponentially faster to more people than it did before. The days of announcing years in advance are long gone and months of previews will now be boiled down to an apple like unveiling a couple of months before release and a full blowout a mere two weeks before release.

I'm quite aware of the fast pace nature of information. Despite all that it doesn't negate the fact spec wars are not pretty. Console manufactuers on this subject are smart as they don't get half as dirty as amd or nvidia do on this subject on swaying consumers in their direction.

I've said it before the risk nintendo takes in not revealing specs is not going be anywhere near as bad as if they reveal them. Sorry consumers and the gaming media are not smart or all that reasonable. It's a business and one way to ensure you get more console sale is to keep thought it's a POS in terms features or performance out of the average consumer mind. People still think a PS2 is on GC or better level for people at nintendo this is lose lose no matter what they do.

Very True MDX. The problem with WiiU and next generation is all the benefits of DX10-11 are not being used. Once devs switch off of DX9 I think we will see a jump in 3d gaming that will give it consistency like 8bit/16bit/32bit improvements did to 2d vs it's early age. This generation has been a wash on results despite the fact there are now clearly more people in to gaming.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Not good quality, but it shows essentially the entire sequence from start through end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHUwDShrD4 (slightly better color balance)

Also, there's a framegrabbed (partial) footage of the demo as shown at the conference, i.e. an older build, missing some effects and a few sequences differ. You can find that in the related videos column.

Spoiler

Fuck off.

That demo is awesome and I'm still holding out for access to it on retail units some how. My dirty little secret is the water physics when the carp breaks the surface still erks me.; ruins the otherwise beautiful photo-realism (for me.) Photo-realism without guns, explosions or limb dismemberment - absolutely ground breaking

 

[JordanN]

Never mind.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Fuck off.

Wow dude, this thread is getting so harsh :'(