Square Enix Member Survey-What qualities do you like most about Lightning?

sonicmj1 said:
Not sure what they need the fans for. Toriyama's got it all figured out.
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Jesus damn. That quote / interview right there is the very definition of "self absorbed". Or "head stuck up in your own ass", if you rather. Hey Square, Lightining is nowhere near likeable or iconic as some of your older characters because she appeared in a series of "just good to mediocre" games with no sense of narrative or world building or whatsoever. Get over it.
 
sonicmj1 said:
Not sure what they need the fans for. Toriyama's got it all figured out.
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Holy shit. I had no idea all those "Toriyama's waifu" accusations were so accurate.

Having such a blatant hardcore crush on your own fictional character is a little embarrassing. I mean, we're entering full-on Stephenie Meyer territory here.
 
This whole thing is just SE trying to push their plan to turn FFXIII into a franchise of its own. Remember back before any of these games came out when they were talking about how they wanted to make FFXIII games for 10 years? The problem with this of course is that the initial game has to be popular before you can guarantee its status as a franchise. SE seems to be pushing forward with that no matter what happens.
 
RedSwirl said:
This whole thing is just SE trying to push their plan to turn FFXIII into a franchise of its own. Remember back before any of these games came out when they were talking about how they wanted to make FFXIII games for 10 years? The problem with this of course is that the initial game has to be popular before you can guarantee its status as a franchise. SE seems to be pushing forward with that no matter what happens.
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FFVII Compilation all over again.
 
we.are.the.armada said:
The problem with Lightning is that this is never established because we're shown that her cantankerous nature is somewhat baseless prior to the events that send her on her character arch.
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What do you mean by that? She had a pretty difficult life up until the purge. She lost her parents and had to be like a mother to Serah, she had to be tough or else they would pretty much perish in a world like that. When she decided to be a soldier I saw that as a lesson to be tougher and stronger when facing problems/difficult situations because she would have to be strong not only for her but for her sister too. This is not baseless, it was there, even if not in the actual main game, the datalog was there to read, I guess people were just lazy not to actually read it.

Rickenslacker said:
what i like most about her is that i've avoided her completely by not playing any of the ff13 games.
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Your loss.
 
This isn't a quality/trait of Lightning per se, but I did appreciate that she did not have a love interest in the story. Square easily could have gone the easier/traditional route and have Snow be her true love or some nonsense like that, but instead kept focused on saving her sister.

Admittedly, while I appreciate that novel (somewhat) approach, it is risky in that once you get rid of potential romance, much of the drama within a standard cliched narrative is removed as well. There is a reason why romance is an integral part of classic Hollywood three-act structure. A good writer CAN pull off an interesting character without the love interest, but it's definitely more difficult and it requires strong personality traits and motivations which Lightning unfortunately lacks.

She does look nice though...
 
LuuKyK said:
What do you mean by that? She had a pretty difficult life up until the purge. She lost her parents and had to be like a mother to Serah, she had to be tough or else they would pretty much perish in a world like that. When she decided to be a soldier I saw that as a lesson to be tougher and stronger when facing problems/difficult situations because she would have to be strong not only for her but for her sister too. This is not baseless, it was there, even if not in the actual main game, the datalog was there to read, I guess people were just lazy not to actually read it.



Your loss.
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Didn't help her cook however.
 
GPsych said:
This isn't a quality/trait of Lightning per se, but I did appreciate that she did not have a love interest in the story. Square easily could have gone the easier/traditional route and have Snow be her true love or some nonsense like that, but instead kept focused on saving her sister.

Admittedly, while I appreciate that novel (somewhat) approach, it is risky in that once you get rid of potential romance, much of the drama within a standard cliched narrative is removed as well. There is a reason why romance is an integral part of classic Hollywood three-act structure. A good writer CAN pull off an interesting character without the love interest, but it's definitely more difficult and it requires strong personality traits and motivations which Lightning unfortunately lacks.

She does look nice though...
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OR they could've did something unconventional and had Sazh be her love interest.


Though it probably would've been horribly executed, in the right hands it could've been something really fucking special.
 
GPsych said:
This isn't a quality/trait of Lightning per se, but I did appreciate that she did not have a love interest in the story. Square easily could have gone the easier/traditional route and have Snow be her true love or some nonsense like that, but instead kept focused on saving her sister.
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Lightning will never have a love interest because Toriyama couldn't stand seeing his waifu with another man.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
OR they could've did something unconventional and had Sazh be her love interest.


Though it probably would've been horribly executed, in the right hands it could've been something really fucking special.
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It could had been really progressive, not only in terms of a video game from japan.
 
LuuKyK said:
This is not baseless, it was there, even if not in the actual main game, the datalog was there to read, I guess people were just lazy not to actually read it.
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This argument fails. I'll explain:

Players generally want an exposition of events, not be told about them in a datalog and it doesn't make them lazy when they ignore addendum. This is basic film/story 101. The results of players' inclinations to Lightning and her friends are an indication of this fact.

Example: Star Wars prequels are terrible and have terrible characters. Some fans say that they are actually good if you read/view the supplemental information extrinsic of the films.

Also, calling people lazy for not actually reading a datalog makes you sound withdrawn from the issue entirely. What if people just didn't know the datalog was there? What if they made a conscientious decision to avoid it because of baseless events didn't provide any interest in the first place. Are you seeing where your argument is based on flawed logic? Trust me, I'm not being a jerk to you, I like FFXIII and I like Lightning - but my understanding of this could make me a more reasonable fan of her and her game than you are.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
OR they could've did something unconventional and had Sazh be her love interest.


Though it probably would've been horribly executed, in the right hands it could've been something really fucking special.
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So true, alas. A Sazh/Lightning relationship slowly built over time in a mature manner would have been awesome.
 
we.are.the.armada said:
This argument fails. I'll explain:

Players generally want an exposition of events, not be told about them in a datalog and it doesn't make them lazy when they ignore addendum. This is basic film/story 101. The results of players' inclinations to Lightning and her friends are an indication of this fact.

Example: Star Wars prequels are terrible and have terrible characters. Some fans say that they are actually good if you read/view the supplemental information extrinsic of the films.

Also, calling people lazy for not actually reading a datalog makes you sound withdrawn from the issue entirely. What if people just didn't know the datalog was there? What if they made a conscientious decision to avoid it because of baseless events didn't provide any interest in the first place. Are you seeing where your argument is based on flawed logic? Trust me, I'm not being a jerk to you, I like FFXIII and I like Lightning - but my understanding of this could make me a more reasonable fan of her and her game than you are.
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How would people not know about the datalog if a UPDATE popped up like every second after you finished some story segment or just played through an important part of the game? If it wasn't important the game would not inform you at all. Maybe it was a fault not to include it in game, but still. And I don't see how reading something that is considered "extra" is any different than seeing a character saying it in a scene. Whats the point, the information reached you somehow, and thats valid in the end. Its not hard to access a menu...
 
PairOfFilthySocks said:
Jesus, what the hell is Square's obsession with this character?
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seriously, she's the first female lead character and they keep shoving her in the limelight..i have a really bad feeling that this is the future of final fantasy, the developers are going to put female leads in every game from now on so they can keep trying to convince us we all want and adore her as much as the creators do -__-
 
LuuKyK said:
How would people not know about the datalog if a UPDATE popped up like every second after you finished some story segment or just played through an important part of the game? If it wasn't important the game would not inform you at all. Maybe it was a fault not to include it in game, but still. And I don't see how reading something that is considered "extra" is any different than seeing a character saying it in a scene. Whats the point, the information reached you somehow, and thats valid in the end. Its not hard to access a menu...
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I think it is very telling that the game wasn't able to make many players care enough about the characters to actually use the datalog to find out more.

And I also think that XIII's datalog was fundamentally flawed, in that it told you a lot of important stuff that should definitely have been in the cutscenes. Datalogs shouldn't be required reading. They should just provide supplemental information for those who want to dig deeper (Mass Effect does this well imo).
 
Grivenger said:
My positive comment was approved.
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That sounds...somewhat insulting to those who like Lightning.

MagiusNecros said:
And then the overhype, and 2006 announcement kick in, and then post release the whole "blame on western thinking" sets in, then we have a sequel no one really wanted, with handpicked scenes to make it greater then it was, fans gave it a 2nd throw, and yet look at what they were given.

It reminds me of a play I went to see a couple days ago. It was terrible. Crude and ill-conceived.

XIII had promise but it's poor execution and lackluster mechanics and writing make it suffer.
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Because of my slight disinterest with the franchise after FFXII I didn't follow FFXIII pre release too much so I wasn't in the hype.
 
LuuKyK said:
How would people not know about the datalog if a UPDATE popped up like every second after you finished some story segment or just played through an important part of the game? If it wasn't important the game would not inform you at all. Maybe it was a fault not to include it in game, but still. And I don't see how reading something that is considered "extra" is any different than seeing a character saying it in a scene. Whats the point, the information reached you somehow, and thats valid in the end. Its not hard to access a menu...
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Because the way the information reaches people is one of the most crucial elements of art/ storytelling. Summing up things through an optional wall of text is dry and does not creates a meaningful experience to the player. Having those same ideas be set in action through cutscenes, with the right direction, sound, words and all that, creates a much more lively and intense experience, which makes more people care more about what is happening.

The way ideas are executed is usually more important than the ideas themselves. A cliché story can hit you hard if well-written, an excellent premise will leave you cold and sad for wasted potential if it's poorly written.

Of course, the pleasure of storytelling also depends on several other factors, like people's expectations, and their willingness to like it no matter what. But it's clear that the poor writing has made a lot of people here not care about Lightning or FFXIII's story as a whole
 
Hahahahaha... It recalls me of the Red Letter Media starwars review, when he asks what people think of the prequels characters.

Except here it's SE doing that to themselves, that's a bit sad.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
OR they could've did something unconventional and had Sazh be her love interest.


Though it probably would've been horribly executed, in the right hands it could've been something really fucking special.
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In the hands of a capable writer, that would have been fairly interesting; young woman trying to step into the step-mother role. But I can't even recall a video game where this was actually explored well at all.
 
Why do you need to read the text dump to understand everything about a character's backstory in a medium which supports storytelling via various means from various points of view. This medium has the support of imagery, dialogue, music, body language, facial expressions, etc. so they must use all of them to expand on the character whom they're pushing as the lead character of their series. Don't just say, "read the prequel novel, read the datalog, read the epilogue novel, read the prequel novel for the beginning of the next game, read the datalog in the next game, etc." You aren't using the tools of your medium to tell your story properly.

Relying on the in-game text dump to tell crucial parts of the story and the characters' backstories overall is something I'd think of being flawed in this medium.

At the very least, FF8's and FF12's "datalogs" were not crucial for a better understanding of characters or narratives. Rather, they served as extras. The worldbuilding was done in-game, but those datalogs were the cherry on top of the whipped cream.

Grivenger said:
Because the way the information reaches people is the one of the most crucial elements of art/ storytelling. Summing up thing through an optional wall of text is dry and does not creates a meaningful experience to the player. Having those same ideas be set in action through cutscenes, with the right direction, sound, words and all that, creates a much more lively and intense experience, which makes more people care more about what is happening.

The way ideas are executed is usually more important than the ideas themselves. A cliché story can hit you hard if well-written, an excellent premise will leave you cold and sad for wasted potential if it's poorly written.

Of course, the pleasure of storytelling also depends on several other factors, like people's expectations, and their willingness to like it no matter what. But it's clear that the poor writing has made a lot of people here not care about Lightning or FFXIII's story as a whole
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Yeah, what this guy said.
 
Grivenger said:
Because the way the information reaches people is the one of the most crucial elements of art/ storytelling.
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Exactly.

I remember the datalog often describing the characters' thoughts and motivations and thinking how it didn't show up at all in their actions/dialogue in the cutscenes.
 
MechaX said:
In the hands of a capable writer, that would have been fairly interesting; young woman trying to step into the step-mother role. But I can't even recall a video game where this was actually explored well at all.
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Not to mention Sazh/Lightning could've potentially brought interracial relationships in video games into the mainstream.


God, just thinking about it...such wasted potential of what could've been.
 
I understand yours criticisms, maybe its just me then...

I still don't see the difference. I just imagine two situations. 1) Reading that "Lightning had to be a mother to Serah". 2) Listening Lightning say "I had to be a mother to Serah".

Isn't it the same piece of info? If you felt for her while hearing her say that, why wouldn't you feel the same while reading it? It didn't change a thing on what actually happened in her life. Its almost as saying that a movie does a better job at conveying emotions than a book.
 
Dark Schala said:
Why do you need to read the text dump to understand everything about a character's backstory in a medium which supports storytelling via various means from various points of view. This medium has the support of imagery, dialogue, music, body language, facial expressions, etc. so they must use all of them to expand on the character whom they're pushing as the lead character of their series. Don't just say, "read the prequel novel, read the datalog, read the epilogue novel, read the prequel novel for the beginning of the next game, read the datalog in the next game, etc." You aren't using the tools of your medium to tell your story properly.

Relying on the in-game text dump to tell crucial parts of the story and the characters' backstories overall is something I'd think of being flawed in this medium.

At the very least, FF8's and FF12's "datalogs" were not crucial for a better understanding of characters or narratives. Rather, they served as extras. The worldbuilding was done in-game, but those datalogs were the cherry on top of the whipped cream.
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I dunno about FFVIII. To this day I'm still not sure about what I experienced in FFVIII. They needed a bigger datalog.

LuuKyK said:
I understand yours criticisms, maybe its just me then...

I still don't see the difference. I just imagine two situations. 1) Reading that "Lightning had to be a mother to Serah". 2) Listening Lightning say "I had to be a mother to Serah".

Isn't it the same piece of info? If you felt for her while hearing her say that, why wouldn't you feel the same while reading it? It didn't change a thing on what actually happened in her life. Its almost as saying that a movie does a better job at conveying emotions than a book.
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I agree.
 
Is "Sucker Punching the character I hated instantly" an option? Because that was what sold me on her.

I like Lightning and even I am hard pressed to say this isn't trying too hard on their part. Besides, we all know that Seven is a better Lightning than Lightning ever will be.
 
LuuKyK said:
I don't see how reading something that is considered "extra" is any different than seeing a character saying it in a scene. Whats the point, the information reached you somehow, and thats valid in the end. Its not hard to access a menu...
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Well, at least we can both agree that you don't see the difference and you don't know the point; unfortunately for FFXIII, many people can and were utterly bored.

LuuKyK said:
I understand yours criticisms, maybe its just me then...

I still don't see the difference. I just imagine two situations. 1) Reading that "Lightning had to be a mother to Serah". 2) Listening Lightning say "I had to be a mother to Serah".

Isn't it the same piece of info? If you felt for her while hearing her say that, why wouldn't you feel the same while reading it? It didn't change a thing on what actually happened in her life. Its almost as saying that a movie does a better job at conveying emotions than a book.
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This is interesting LuuKyK and I'll explain in a bit.
 
I actually thought the game did a decent job establishing why Lightning was the way she was at the beginning without using the datalog. Going by the flashbacks, you can see that she was incredibly overprotective of Serah. The fact that she responded to the loss of their parents by becoming a cop and adopting a fierce-sounding nickname while refusing to use her real one suggests that she took it way harder than Serah did and was determined to become someone that her sister could depend on in place of them. It was also shown that she disliked her sister's boyfriend both personally and professionally. Then came, "Happy birthday, sis! By the way, I've totally been marked as a tool for the will of ancient creator beings. I've actually known for days now, but I thought telling my boyfriend was more important than telling you. Also, we're totally getting married, even though literally everyone except me can see that you hate his guts and want to punch him in the face. Here's a knife!"

Then when Serah crystallized at the beginning (after Lightning already threw away her career and became a fugitive to save her), Lightning thought she would never speak to her again, and then her boyfriend jumps in with some dorky hero speech trying to interpret her last wishes. Being fucking pissed at that point is understandable.
 
Syril said:
I actually thought the game did a decent job establishing why Lightning was the way she was at the beginning without using the datalog. Going by the flashbacks, you can see that she was incredibly overprotective of Serah. The fact that she responded to the loss of their parents by becoming a cop and adopting a fierce-sounding nickname while refusing to use her real one suggests that she took it way harder than Serah did and was determined to become someone that her sister could depend on in place of them. It was also shown that she disliked her sister's boyfriend both personally and professionally. Then came, "Happy birthday, sis! By the way, I've totally been marked as a tool for the will of ancient creator beings. I've actually known for days now, but I thought telling my boyfriend was more important than telling you. Also, we're totally getting married, even though literally everyone except me can see that you hate his guts and want to punch him in the face. Here's a knife!"

Then when Serah crystallized at the beginning (after Lightning already threw away her career and became a fugitive to save her), Lightning thought she would never speak to her again, and then her boyfriend jumps in with some dorky hero speech trying to interpret her last wishes. Being fucking pissed at that point is understandable.
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True Syril. Its not hard to guess what happened. But then again, there WAS a datalog to help...
 
Syril said:
I actually thought the game did a decent job establishing why Lightning was the way she was at the beginning without using the datalog. Going by the flashbacks, you can see that she was incredibly overprotective of Serah. The fact that she responded to the loss of their parents by becoming a cop and adopting a fierce-sounding nickname while refusing to use her real one suggests that she took it way harder than Serah did and was determined to become someone that her sister could depend on in place of them. It was also shown that she disliked her sister's boyfriend both personally and professionally. Then came, "Happy birthday, sis! By the way, I've totally been marked as a tool for the will of ancient creator beings. I've actually known for days now, but I thought telling my boyfriend was more important than telling you. Also, we're totally getting married, even though literally everyone except me can see that you hate his guts and want to punch him in the face. Here's a knife!"

Then when Serah crystallized at the beginning (after Lightning already threw away her career and became a fugitive to save her), Lightning thought she would never speak to her again, and then her boyfriend jumps in with some dorky hero speech trying to interpret her last wishes. Being fucking pissed at that point is understandable.
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Can we all just agree that Serah and Snow treated Lightning like crap and the game never touches on that aspect of their relationship? Also her anger was understandable given that she'd just become a Light Warrior, er, L'Cie tasked with saving, I mean destroying the world and stopping, I mean summoning the crazy extra-dimensional diety.
 
LuuKyK said:
True Syril. Its not hard to guess what happened. But then again, there WAS a datalog to help...
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You make it sound like it's the players' fault. It was up to Square to make us care about the characters and obviously they didn't manage to for a lot of players.
 
MagiusNecros said:
Seems like it. Must have been more acceptable in their eyes as opposed to mine which states things bluntly. They probably take it you liked Lightning Mary Sue or not.
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Maybe you didn't notice but the survey is about the "qualities you like of Lightning." I said her "resolution" (?).
 
MagiusNecros said:
"I hate all of Lightning's qualities as her only good quality is her looks which reflects the current titles developed that focus on graphics and amount to looking good while having a overall lackluster feel. She comes off as a sterotypical hardass lamer who does a 180 degree turn in the sequel becoming sad and poetic hence becoming out of character by saying she will serve no higher power but then goes to serve a higher power anyway and the final installment will instate her a demigodlike entity with little or obscure reasons as to how that came to be. Furthermore she is a static, stagnant and overall pathetic character that is so forgettable that she seems to be a mere afterthought in the context of the role she plays in. She makes characters that are meant to be static appear deeper and more thought out then she is."
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YWb93.gif
 
Juken said:
You make it sound like it's the players' fault. It was up to Square to make us care about the characters and obviously they didn't manage to for a lot of players.
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It is. If you were not wasting so much time being nitpicky about an info that you have access to you would care enough about her. But you clearly isn't even trying to care about her anyway, so...
 
Lightning was my favorite Final Fantasy character until they decided to ruin everything with Final Fantasy XIII-2. Now I... dislike her alot too!
 
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