frankie_baby
Member
Pretty comparable to high end PS2 games though and while I doubt Nintendo will do a $100 million game I wouldn't be surprised at 40 or 50 for key franchises
Rumor: Wii U final specs
- Thread starter EatChildren
- Start date
Pretty comparable to high end PS2 games though and while I doubt Nintendo will do a $100 million game I wouldn't be surprised at 40 or 50 for key franchises
Your argument really isn't worth much, as you are ignoring the very obvious technical drawbacks the N64 as well as the GameCube had in comparison to the competition.
And that something has worked in the past doesn't mean it's a winning strategy going forward.
The N64 had features not even available in consumer PC video hardware at the time it came out. They made some bad decisions WITH the hardware that stunted it in certain ways, but the N64 was not a slouch hardware wise.
gamergirly
Member
All of the Lights.....all of the lights....
N64 games still looked markedly worse than PC games at the time (at least if you had a 3D accelerator), the N64 really didn't impress me, part of the computer crowd. And let's not even begin talking about the paltry resolution the machine was outputting (but, of course, the PlayStation and Saturn were equally unimpressive).
Add to that the fact that storage was at such a premium that it severely hampered development for the system, consider the terribly designed N64 controller and you now know the reason why the PlayStation had a much bigger impact on the industry.
What is it for the Wii?
Apophis2036
Banned
I don't even think those games will compete visually with the likes of Halo 4, Uncharted 3, Last of Us, Gears Judgement, Beyond, God of War Ascension ect for the simple fact that Nintendo will not blow that kind of development budget on games which sell under 10 million copies (3D Mario, Zelda, Metroid).
Im sure they will look really nice tho.
KidGalactus
Member
If you can make a AAA game without spending 100 million dollars, then shouldn't you?
I mean, why waste the money?
KojiKnight
Member
Remember, one of the reasons they need such a large budget to make the games look so good is because they have to do a lot to get around the technical limitations of the console.
You don't need to do a lot of fancy tricks to make your textures look sharp if they are 2-4x larger. I think Nintendo's best Wii U titles will easily beat anything from the PS360, the problem will be only certain top tier Nintendo titles will get that kind of love.... Unless devs come up with some nice tricks for downporting PS4-720 (middleware like Unity will help).
Personally, I'm kind of hoping that some games will look better when they display on the U-pad only versus on the TV. It would be an easy way to take advantage of the Wii U and output games of similar quality (I could easily see Wii U able to output PS4-720 level graphics at 480p, then "downgrade" visuals to hit 720p on TV play).
I think honestly that may be the way Nintendo wants to go... They continue to give their best with their software on the big screen, then on multi-plat titles just embrace the fact that on the big screen their games won't look as good but on the gamepad they might have the edge if just in home portability.
x6 drive
Smurfman256
Member
So...is it still a no-go on an e6760-bassed GPU clocked down to around 550MHz?
8MB/sec then
If the rumors are true and the Wii U offers GameCube games via its Virtual Console, how would that work? Would it be Dolphin-esque emulation (with higher resolutions) or is it more likely that the Wii U hardware is close enough to Wii/GameCube that it could just be hardware-based backwards compatibility?
Apophis2036
Banned
Would it really even be 'betting the farm' by building a console in 2012 that has a 1TF GPU and 3GB's of Ram (2 for games) ?.
MadeInBeats
Banned
I read someone on here say that VC games are re-coded for the hardware, not emulated.
Forsaken82
Member
You don't need to spend 30+ million to create a visually impressive game. By the end of 2013 I am pretty confident the Wii U will have a game that outdoes anything on the 360/PS3.
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
Really curious to see what a Nintendo backed Bayo 2 will end up looking like
Well the N64 pre dates the 3DFX Voodoo 1 PCI card. Before that there was nothing on PCs that could touch it.
And I disagree about the controller, the N64 had a good controller, it was so successful it made analogue sticks an industry standard. Games designed for it like Mario 64 played very well and scored well with reviewers. Sony just copied that idea by bolting two analogue sticks (instead of one) on a SNES inspired controller body and called it Dual Shock. And they've stuck with that same design ever since. The Virtual Boy had a dual pronged controller design way before the Dual Shock. Sony even copied rumble packs from Nintendo but decided to build them into the controller. Just like how the Move is clearly inspired by the the Wii Mote. Nintendo have never made a bad controller, even the square Nes controller is good.
Every console in history has technical draw backs. But AFAIK Gamecube was very rounded with no obvious technical drawbacks compared to the PS2. And technically N64 was far superior in every aspect to the Playstation and Saturn.
Games like MK4 were running at 60fps on the N64 but ran like slide shows on the Playstation. Even stuff like Episode One Racer were far superior to anything on Playstation.
Are any of those games really much more impressive than the average multiplatform game? Or do they just get more hype for being exclusive? I haven't played a lot of console "AAA" games lately, so maybe I've just forgotten how they actually look, but I never though Uncharted 3 or Last of US looked that impressive from the footage I've seen. Batman and ME3 are some of the best looking UE games, and not far from GoW. Assassins Creed is rather ugly but there's a lot of stuff going on.
Yes, they are much more impressive than the typical multi-platform game.
In all likelyhood, Nintendo just bundles a custom-setup emulator which each game. Creating a "perfect" hardware emulation like bsnes would be overkill (and probably impossible on existing console hardware due to lack of processing power).
You're right, I was thinking of the European release date of the N64. But still, the graphics card market was very dynamic at the time and made the N64 look really old very quickly (or even at release for some of us).
The reason the DualShock setup has become the de-facto standard even Nintendo's controllers are now based on is the fact that such a stick setup is much more useful and practical than the N64s awkward and nonsensically placed single stick.
Stick quality, precision, available inputs as well as comfortability are much better with the DualShock compared to the N64 controller.
The GameCube was severely hampered by its Mini-DVDs. That's why third-parties weren't all that interested in the platform.
Sure, the N64 had its technical advantages. 3D games on PS1 were probably worse. But still, the lack of storage space on cartridges severely hampered many genres and game ideas.
Apophis2036
Banned
I hope so, although i don't think they will blow their first party load too fast, i can only see one other big name *first party game arriving for Nov 2013 (after Pikmin 3 in March), prob around the same time as / if PS4 / 720 launch, i would guess it would be 3D Mario as Zelda and Metroid will take longer to develop as those have a slightly more realistic artstyle.
Metroid, Smash Bros, Zelda and Mario Kart will alternate each following big winter game for the next 5 years imo, that is unless Nintendo want to start releasing two of each big IP per generation which i wouldn't be adverse to although i would much rather see a new 3D Donkey Kong along with more F Zero, Starfox, Waverace, Pilotwings ect.
* Edit.
frankie_baby
Member
Sorry netbuff but the n64 stick placement is far more natural and practical than the stupid bodge job that is the dualshock
Apophis2036
Banned
Im not expecting it to look much different from the original tbh, wasn't it already in development when it was cancelled ?.
Hopefully it will include some nice 'next gen' features like nice depth of field and nice lighting, shadow, fire, explosion effects.
ZombiU has some really nice effects but the textures are pretty 'meh', does anyone know why this might be, small development time / team / budget ?.
JordanN
Banned
After looking up dynamic lighting, I guess it can still be considered an impressive feat for how expensive that type of lighting can be for rendering. Also, having dynamic lights frees up memory because there is no reliance on lightmaps (something current gen games use alot). It's also a direction that next gen engines (such as UE4) are going.
frankie_baby
Member
Zombi u is relatively low budget
N64 was inferior to the Playstation, when it came to texture resolution.
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
I think the obvious drawback with forthcoming Nintendo games will be their history of skirting advancements in technology used in prerendered cutscenes. I mean, they don't even use voice acting in their titles in 2012, let alone things like performance mocap, and I think these will be the areas where Nintendo will lag behind their competition. A title like Mario might not benefit from it, but the blended animation tech in Naughty Dog games would benefit a Zelda game I think. If Retro pursues a realistic direction for their next title, I think key frame animation will make their project look noticeably aged next to the refined mocap in TLoU or Beyond. It's like comparing the smooth and nuanced performances in Uncharted to the stilted robotic animation of Mass Effect. Other than that, I think the first party crop from Nintendo will be visually satisfying, as their art direction is typically excellent
Also seconded on ND and Santa Monica's games blowing the competition clean out of the water. I'm not a huge fan of UC or GoW but there were moments in UC2 and GoW that made me question how that was technically possible. GoW in particular had moments that made me think it was prerendered (Chronos/Intro with Gaia & Titans)
Also seconded on ND and Santa Monica's games blowing the competition clean out of the water. I'm not a huge fan of UC or GoW but there were moments in UC2 and GoW that made me question how that was technically possible. GoW in particular had moments that made me think it was prerendered (Chronos/Intro with Gaia & Titans)
Apophis2036
Banned
I own all 3 current gen systems but for me Uncharted 2/3 and God of War 3 blow everything else into orbit.
Im not really into the tech side of how they do things and i know people often point out that games like those 'cheat' but the start of God of War 3 is something every gamer should experience, the closest i have ever felt to controlling a movie. Would love to see a dev diary on how they achieved some of the things they did in those games.
I don't own them yet but Halo 4 and Forza Horizon also look unreal.
Im also struggling to understand how they are getting Beyond to look like it does on a 7800 GPU, 512MB's of Ram and a 7 year old CPU
.Apophis2036
Banned
Do we have any sources apart from the Ubisoft CEO just saying it was 'cheaper' than their main IP's like Assassin's Creed, would be really interesting to see if they could have changed it from Killer Freaks to ZombiU for under $5 million.
Also does anyone know the most money Nintendo ever spent on a first party title, i've heard it was Twilight Princess but can't find any specifics.
ThanksVision
Member
is the original bayonetta 60 fps? I can't remember
Also, was Vanquish?
Also, was Vanquish?
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
You can unlock the behind the scenes vids in GoW. I remember the video on Gaia and the Titans being extremely detailed. I thought it was insane that they had no idea how or whether they could achieve that scene or not, it was just the result of brainstorming and they had to invent the tech to support the sceneI own all 3 current gen systems but for me Uncharted 2/3 and God of War 3 blow everything else into orbit.
Im not really into the tech side of how they do things and i know people often point out that games like those 'cheat' but the start of God of War 3 is something every gamer should experience, the closest i have ever felt to controlling a movie. Would love to see a dev diary on how they achieved some of the things they did in those games.
I don't own them yet but Halo 4 and Forza Horizon also look unreal.
Im also struggling to understand how they are getting Beyond to look like it does on a 7800 GPU, 512MB's of Ram and a 7 year old CPU
vanquish is 30 FPS, that tidbit blew my mind. Dunno bout Bayo as the PS3 ver has a lot of framedrops as it was ported by Sega
Apophis2036
Banned
Nintendo have been using mo-cap since Ocarina of Time. They've also been using voice acting since the N64 days. It's just that they choose on a title-by-title basis whether to use either, and in many cases Nintendo's non-realistic style is better suited to hand-made animations and written text.
Didn't some games were writen more than once over the same layer to make the DVD drive read them faster? Or load them for that matter
Wii U uses 25GB disks and games like SMBU are like 2GB. They could do the same, right?
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
Yeah I love that Sony's first party does that. GoW, all of the Uncharteds and Heavy Rain all have extensive looks at their creation. The GoW ones were amazing. They had a look at many interesting components like how they created the tech for the blood spurts. They filled up balloons with fake blood and shot them with pellet guns and filmed the result! Even though I felt the game was disappointing overall compared to GoW2, its technical excellence is undeniableCheers didn't know that
There have been huge advancements in motech since. Hell just in this gen alone. Compare Heavy Rain to Beyond, they aren't even comparable, as Beyond looks far more believable. I do agree that key framed animation suits Nintendo's style more that's why I mentioned Retro suffering if their next project takes a more realistic style
frankie_baby
Member
I'm pretty sure there's been a few quotes from ubi and I'd be pretty certain it was still noticeably higher than $5million
I seem to remember hearing twillight princess was 20 million
You are right about dual sticks being more practical. But Sony was still inspired by what Nintendo was doing with their controllers. I think Miyamoto himself admitted at one point that the C-Buttons should have been a second analogue stick.
As for the precision of Sony's sticks, I'm not too sure about them, I have always felt the dual shock sticks were loose. I preferred the firmer more precise feel of the N64 sticks for aiming controls in games. But its just matter of preference.
I think the main problem was lack of market share. Not Mini DVDs. 3rd party multi plat games just didn't well. In fact the smaller physical size was an advantage as it meant faster seek times and shorter loading times for many games. The Gamecube pretty much felt just like a cartridge based system because games loaded quick. Another advantage and this is something carried on from the N64, is that most Gamecube games tended to use the in-game engine for cinematics rather than waste disc space with video. Whereas most of the big PS2 games were full of pre rendered CG footage, even the PS2 version of RE4 used pre rendered videos.
ShadowFox08
Member
That's what I mean. I know Nintendo isn't revealing specs.. Just wondering when someone is gonna voluntarily crack open their wii U's..
I really don't get this, if GameCube was hampered by its mini-DVDs what about Xbox with its DVDs compared to PS3 with Blu-ray?
frankie_baby
Member
Someone somewhere will probably do it day 1
And Nintendo have been making use of those advancements in mo-cap (you can even see their mo-cap studio in one of the Nintendo Directs) and have been doing things like inverse kinematics as well for a while now. These kinds of things are just less obvious in a game like Skyward Sword than they are in a game like Beyond.
Blu Ray on PS3 isn't outright superior to DVD on 360 and the extra space isn't always needed.
In terms of the best graphics on Nintendo consoles, it's always been a problem of not enough developers giving a damn.
The vast majority of 3rd party games on the Gamecube looked pretty much identical to PS2 games, a few looked slightly better, and some still came out worse because of development laziness. Most of them just didn't think drawing out the GCN's power was worth the effort commercially. On the other hand you got games like Rogue Squadron II and Resident Evil standing tall above the rest of the library. On the Wii I don't think there's a 3rd party game that comes anywhere close to Mario Galaxy. Unless the Wii U claims a dominant sales position next year and Wii U versions of 3rd party games actually start selling, those developers aren't really gonna put in the effort to make Wii U games look any better than PS360 games.
Perhaps if the Wii U is indeed closer to the PS4 and Durango in terms of architecture then a lot of down-ported games from those systems might still look better than current gen games when running on Wii U.
Each VC game is put into its own unique emulator, but with Gamecube games there's a chance they might be upscaled. N64 games on VC right now display in true 480p with noticeably higher IQ than they ever did on the N64.
The vast majority of 3rd party games on the Gamecube looked pretty much identical to PS2 games, a few looked slightly better, and some still came out worse because of development laziness. Most of them just didn't think drawing out the GCN's power was worth the effort commercially. On the other hand you got games like Rogue Squadron II and Resident Evil standing tall above the rest of the library. On the Wii I don't think there's a 3rd party game that comes anywhere close to Mario Galaxy. Unless the Wii U claims a dominant sales position next year and Wii U versions of 3rd party games actually start selling, those developers aren't really gonna put in the effort to make Wii U games look any better than PS360 games.
Perhaps if the Wii U is indeed closer to the PS4 and Durango in terms of architecture then a lot of down-ported games from those systems might still look better than current gen games when running on Wii U.
Each VC game is put into its own unique emulator, but with Gamecube games there's a chance they might be upscaled. N64 games on VC right now display in true 480p with noticeably higher IQ than they ever did on the N64.
The biggest issue with the Playstation was lack of memory. It has half the memory of the N64, there just wasn't enough space for high quality textures. If you look at most Playstation games, there is heavy use of untextured gourad shaded polygons. That's what makes most people think the Playstation has sharper textures. When in fact there aren't any textures at all - just nicely shaded polygons. Whereas N64 games usually are fully textured with the exception of Mario 64.
If you don't believe me. Crash Bandicoot for example uses shaded untextured polygons for the characters.