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[THE:MILKMAN]

Quad-core Steamroller would be four threads. But your concern is sound.

I should add that Jaguar is actually much more impressive than I'd given it credit for. Clock for clock it's performing above its pay grade, and these new generations multi-cores work better scaled up then ever before.

And you also have HSA efficiencies to think of which will come off good I reckon.

And the Custom CU block thing in the CPU.

I'm really not worried at all about the specs yet, though I will leave final judgement for when I see the games.

I guess I'm not disappointed because my spec guesses are almost exactly in-line with this Eurogamer article. 7850 power, 2-4GB RAM, 120-150W was what I expected so am not too disappointed yet.

 

[somuchwater]

will everyone's ps3 vanish when ps4 comes out?

not worth it for anyone. i'd rather sony keep the price down.

That's not what I meant. I mean that most consumers are accustomed to digital purchases being transferable, whether iOS/Android or Steam.

It's totally impractical for Sony to include BC. Not arguing that. I'm just saying it's a shame things worked out this way.

 

[test_account]

Can we really discount the Cell in PS4 after the cost and time it took to bring to market? To abandon such an expensive design and manufacturing effort would seem at odds with Sony attempting to cut costs.

Why not use your own proven technology at a low(er) price for specialized tasks instead outsourcing / R&Ding it all over again at high prices. Makes sound business sense to me....but then Sony don't always make sound business decisions.

I'm not sure that it would be really that much cheaper. The AMD CPU that the PS4 might use is most likely built on older design (as in, not being something completely new just to be used in the PS4). I assume that they would have to do research on the CELL CPU as well to make it more powerful, and that cost money as well.

 

[rdrr gnr]

I wonder how painless transferring my account will be. I'd like to keep my Trophies and FL -- yet still change my username.

 

[i-Lo]

3 low power ibm cores at 1.2ghz vs 8 low power amd cores at 1.6 ghz.

It's hard to draw conclusion from raw numbers. I'll have to wait for real world performance. If the CPU is crap, then it'll be like choosing between bull's crap (PS4/Durango) and cat's crap (WiiU). But the good news is, since they are both of the same nature, i.e. OOE, porting between the two would be easier. WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

 

[test_account]

I wonder how painless transferring my account will be. I'd like to keep my Trophies and FL -- yet still change my username.

Probably just require you to log in to PSN on the PS4 and do a trophy sync. The friend list should automatically be transfered over.

EDIT: About changing your username, that probably wont work.

 

[StevieP]

It's hard to draw conclusion from raw numbers. I'll have to wait for real world performance. If the CPU is crap, then it'll be like choosing between bull's crap (PS4/Durango) and cat's crap (WiiU). But the good news is, since they are both of the same nature, i.e. OOE, porting between the two would be easier. WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

It's not marginal. A 40w system also has hard limits. Physics always tell the story. A CPU that's approximately 25mm at 28nm isn't going to be beastly.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Because having a dedicated processor taking care of OS and all the other tasks would mean having all 8 cores and 4GB DDR5 available for games. In addition, the SPEs could also assist the main CPU with vector intesive game code, making it a monster console.

In what way could a 4 SPE processor run an OS? The instruction set doesn't exist on SpursEngine to run the OS, it is intended to be an accelerator for CPU intensive tasks such as graphic design, video editing/encoding or 3D modelling, and Toshiba have written drivers and plugins for all of the major programmes to take advantage of it for these kinds of tasks. However, using it to run an OS is well beyond its capabilities.

Sony would have to invest money designing a 32nm version of it and have to deal with fucking Rambus all over again for an addition that brings nothing to the table. If we had advanced to 14nm already then there would be a case for an integrated Cell/RSX package with all of the RAM on board to maintain backwards compatibility since it would add so little to the silicon budget, but we aren't. Cell is out of the picture.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I wonder how painless transferring my account will be. I'd like to keep my Trophies and FL -- yet still change my username.

SEN login. You are stuck with your username unless Sony come up with a system to change it. Don't forget that SEN is now used on all Sony devices, not just PlayStation, they wouldn't put PS4 users onto a separate system with new usernames.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It's hard to draw conclusion from raw numbers. I'll have to wait for real world performance. If the CPU is crap, then it'll be like choosing between bull's crap (PS4/Durango) and cat's crap (WiiU). But the good news is, since they are both of the same nature, i.e. OOE, porting between the two would be easier. WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet on the CPU. Someone on B3D suggested that with CU block customisation, the CPU could possibly reach ~300GF. I don't know how likely that is but I believe that would make it high end in GF terms compared to PC CPUs.

 

[rdrr gnr]

SEN login. You are stuck with your username unless Sony come up with a system to change it. Don't forget that SEN is now used on all Sony devices, not just PlayStation, they wouldn't put PS4 users onto a separate system with new usernames.

Well, I can change my gamertag for a small fee. I picked my username years ago -- I'm over it. I hope they accommodate. I'm fine if my current username is locked -- as long as I can display or use alternates (under that account) for the PS4.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

agni's philosophy won't take that much to run you might not get it at @60fps but the demo was unoptimized and only used 1.8GB of vram .
It hardly used any of the CPU power also and lighting was baked for certain things .

 

[Ashes]

And the Custom CU block thing in the CPU.

I'm really not worried at all about the specs yet, though I will leave final judgement for when I see the games.

I guess I'm not disappointed because my spec guesses are almost exactly in-line with this Eurogamer article. 7850 power, 2-4GB RAM, 120-150W was what I expected so am not too disappointed yet.

I'm also doubting the 10xppu assumption.

 

[JonathanPower]

In what way could a 4 SPE processor run an OS?

In the same way the Ps3 OS runs on 1 SPE.

The instruction set doesn't exist on SpursEngine to run the OS, it is intended to be an accelerator for CPU intensive tasks such as graphic design, video editing/encoding or 3D modelling, and Toshiba have written drivers and plugins for all of the major programmes to take advantage of it for these kinds of tasks. However, using it to run an OS is well beyond its capabilities.

Of course Sony it's not gonna use the SpursEngine in the PS4, this is just an example of how flexible the technology is. If their are gonna use it, they will implement something suited for the PS4.

Sony would have to invest money designing a 32nm version of it and have to deal with fucking Rambus all over again for an addition that brings nothing to the table. If we had advanced to 14nm already then there would be a case for an integrated Cell/RSX package with all of the RAM on board to maintain backwards compatibility since it would add so little to the silicon budget, but we aren't. Cell is out of the picture.

I think having the whole Cell/RSX package wouldn't make sense since RSX can be emulated. And, I wouldn't understimate bringing 200 Gflops to the table.

 

[Clockwork]

The rumour that new guy posted is such complete and utter bullshit that I can't believe people are even discussing it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest Digital Foundry and their sources are correct and what the articles states is more or less what the PS4 is going to contain. As for all this whining about the CPU etc. I don't know where you people get such misguided ideas from but a console is a completely different beast to a Windows laptop.

Pretty much this.

 

[i-Lo]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet on the CPU. Someone on B3D suggested that with CU block customisation, the CPU could possibly reach ~300GF. I don't know how likely that is but I believe that would make it high end in GF terms compared to PC CPUs.

Yea, who doesn't want 300 Girl Friends?

In all seriousness however, it seems like a massive downgrade going from the purported Steamroller to Jaguar. And the secret sauce is akin to having this magical jizz sprayed on the bull's crap. It once again, sounds like the RSX situation where the CELL ended up compensating for the GPU's shortcomings.

Do guess, if you want to, as to the purpose of the Compute module (can anyone be kind enough to explain whether a module is akin to a single or is it compute unit but only one?) in PS4 and the DSPs in XB3 for that matter. Could it/they be assigned tasks pertaining to tessellation, physics, texture decompression, audio processing? And can the tasks be switched or is are the roles permanent?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

In the same way the Ps3 OS runs on 1 SPE.

No it doesn't? One SPE is reserved for security functions and background functions. The OS, when loaded, uses the whole processor, which is why it was such a chore to get in-game XMB working for Sony since they had never accounted for it during the design phase. In the end they got a version of XMB running on a single PPE thread but the overlay is locked to the same graphical output as the game running.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I'm also doubting the 10xppu assumption. Got to be wrong because an A105800 apu has around 700gflops tops, which would trounce the Cell... Though I guess they add up the gpu flops too.. and in real accounts they're around what 300? [yes gpu helped] That's still pretty damn good.

the eight core has a peak of what roughly 115 gflops.. without the gpu...

Similar to the xenon then, but these jaguars are much much more efficient if brazos is anything to go by... They'll definitely get closer to the 115...

8 cores will do pretty good.

Actually you got me thinking. The 1.84TF is just for the GPU section of the APU and if the 300GF is in the ballpark for the CPU section, that would add up to 2.1TF.

And Eurogamer implied there are more undisclosed things........

 

[McHuj]

It's hard to draw conclusion from raw numbers. I'll have to wait for real world performance. If the CPU is crap, then it'll be like choosing between bull's crap (PS4/Durango) and cat's crap (WiiU). But the good news is, since they are both of the same nature, i.e. OOE, porting between the two would be easier. WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

I don't think you have to worry about the WiiU cpu coming close to the performance of the rumored 8-core CPU's in the next gen consoles. The similarities end at the clock speeds.

The WiiU CPU (regardless how it performs) is only 33mm on a 45nm process. Jaguar cores are 3.1mm on 28nm. An 8 core CPU including all the L2's, would probably be in the 40-50nm range and consume 25-35 watts. If you scaled that back up to 45nm, you're probably looking at a CPU that's around 100-125mm and consumes around 75-100W.

 

[JonathanPower]

No it doesn't? One SPE is reserved for security functions and background functions. The OS, when loaded, uses the whole processor, which is why it was such a chore to get in-game XMB working for Sony since they had never accounted for it during the design phase. In the end they got a version of XMB running on a single PPE thread but the overlay is locked to the same graphical output as the game running.

They can add another element acting as the PPE in Cell.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

will everyone's ps3 vanish when ps4 comes out?

not worth it for anyone. i'd rather sony keep the price down.

Anth0ny me and you are drinking the same kool-aid baby

 

[statham]

I still feel something is not right, all the games(e3) where on 680 for a reason. and now both systems can't push a 680 system. why spend the millions on pushing a PC game. my 7850 which would be cool if it could play games for the next 5 years thinks something is up. every rumor has the same exact details but nothing on special sauce. something doesn't feel right.

 

[Ashes]

Actually you got me thinking. The 1.84TF is just for the GPU section of the APU and if the 300GF is in the ballpark for the CPU section, that would add up to 2.1TF.

And Eurogamer implied there are more undisclosed things........

The Jaguar cores are so small, you could probably have it as part of the APU. Though we're better off asking someone else.
Jaguars at the 25w* aren't completely shitty throwaways not fit for consoles, they're er quite something for a core of it's size.




*if that's what they'll be at.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

They can add another element acting as the PPE in Cell.

Again, why?!?

Adding Cell to PS4 is expensive and pointless. Your PS3 is not going to disintegrate when you buy a PS4...

 

[thehypocrite]

Yea, who doesn't want 300 Girl Friends?

In all seriousness however, it seems like a massive downgrade going from the purported Steamroller to Jaguar. And the secret sauce is akin to having this magical jizz sprayed on the bull's crap. It once again, sounds like the RSX situation where the CELL ended up compensating for the GPU's shortcomings.

Do guess, if you want to, as to the purpose of the Compute module (can anyone be kind enough to explain whether a module is akin to a single or is it compute unit but only one?) in PS4 and the DSPs in XB3 for that matter. Could it/they be assigned tasks pertaining to tessellation, physics, texture decompression, audio processing? And can the tasks be switched or is are the roles permanent?

How can it be a massive downgrade? We are talking about rumors here. There can be no downgrade and no disappointment for them.

 

[i-Lo]

I don't think you have to worry about the WiiU cpu coming close to the performance of the rumored 8-core CPU's in the next gen consoles. The similarities end at the clock speeds.

The WiiU CPU (regardless how it performs) is only 33mm on a 45nm process. Jaguar cores are 3.1mm on 28nm. An 8 core CPU including all the L2's, would probably be in the 40-50nm range and consume 25-35 watts. If you scaled that back up to 45nm, you're probably looking at a CPU that's around 100-125mm and consumes around 75-100W.

Sorry could you explain to me the second paragraph? Also did you mean that 8 core CPU including L2 cache fabricated at 28nm will be take up 40-50mm (not nm)?

How can it be a massive downgrade? We are talking about rumors here. There can be no downgrade and no disappointment for them.

Rumoured Jag vs Rumoured Steamroller. Rumoured Steamroller is more powerful than rumoured Jaguar and the latest rumour suggests that PS4 may allegedly choose 8 core Jaguar, which would fit in the another rumour about Steamroller production may not arrive without causing a delay (substantial or otherwise) to PS4's launch (which could put it quite far behind XB3's launch).

 

[DeuceGamer]

fuck cell and fuck backwards compatibility. don't make that mistake again sony.

I'm hoping for Backwards Compatibility but only cause I've missed some of the PS3 exclusives. It's definitely not a deal breaker and I wouldn't want them to add it at a ridiculous cost that it seems it may require...

 

[rdrr gnr]

I'm hoping for Backwards Compatibility but only cause I've missed some of the PS3 exclusives. It's definitely not a deal breaker and I wouldn't want them to add it at a ridiculous cost that it seems it may require...

You don't own a PS3? Virtually ever must-play title is in some kind of cheap package/collection.

 

[thehypocrite]

I still feel something is not right, all the games(e3) where on 680 for a reason. and now both systems can't push a 680 system. why spend the millions on pushing a PC game. my 7850 which would be cool if it could play games for the next 5 years thinks something is up. every rumor has the same exact details but nothing on special sauce. something doesn't feel right.

Because people need to understand that a PC or the performance that you get on a PC is not even close to what you would get on a console. None of the parts in those uber PCs are working at a 65% level of utilization, on a console you can go up to a 100, these comparisons are pointless. When E3 comes around and we have to collectivelly pick up the jaw of the floor with the gameplay demonstrations you will be able to understand.

 

[Azriell]

Reading this article, I have three predominant thoughts. The first of course is how awesome next-gen is starting to sound. I decided to abstain from next-gen rumor/hype threads after the rumors started up awhile back about 1-2GB ram and minor graphical jumps, so this is quite welcoming.

My second thought is if MS will make adjustments to bring Durango around to a more even keel, or if they're confidant in their approach (with the disparity in OS and ram allocation, it certainly seems like the two have different priorities).

Finally, I see some mentions about possible costs in this thread. Sony certainly has a record now of releasing expensive, powerful hardware. My concern is if we have PS3/360 launch conditions again, and it takes the PS4 as long as it took the PS3 get rolling. The strategy is paying off for Sony now with the PS3, but given the present state of the company I'm not sure if they can weather that storm again.

 

[StevieP]

Because people need to understand that a PC or the performance that you get on a PC is not even close to what you would get on a console. None of the parts in those uber PCs are working at a 65% level of utilization, on a console you can go up to a 100, these comparisons are pointless. When E3 comes around and we have to collectivelly pick up the jaw of the floor with the gameplay demonstrations you will be able to understand.

False.

 

[CorrisD]

Also, there is literally no way that Sony stick Cell and 512MB of XDR in PS4. They are getting away from that. Yoshida is said to have ordered the hardware guys to build a console that is easy to develop for because third party software is not guaranteed this time around. No way that Sony is going to stick Cell into any console at the expense of gaming performance.

Cell + 512MB XDR would add around $80 to the BoM all in, and that would have to come out of the silicon budget elsewhere otherwise the power requirements would be much too high.

Do they need to stick XDR in there along with a Cell chip, is GDDR5 not fast enough in whatever way it needs to be?

 

[Shayan]

No it doesn't? One SPE is reserved for security functions and background functions. The OS, when loaded, uses the whole processor, which is why it was such a chore to get in-game XMB working for Sony since they had never accounted for it during the design phase. In the end they got a version of XMB running on a single PPE thread but the overlay is locked to the same graphical output as the game running.

wow man . A single SPE can run the OS and if you are unaware a single SPE is indeed running the OS in the ps3

the PPE in the cell processor behaves just like a task allocator

the problems associated with the XMB was due to low ram and also split ram . It is possible for Cell to access split pools simultaneously but not concurrently

 

[NBtoaster]

False.

You can get much better performance out of console hardware than the same hardware on PC. No 360 equivalent PC from 2005 would run Halo 4 at the same fidelity as the 360.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

If an 8 core jaguar processor is really 2X Cell, I wonder why they didn't just go with 2 CELLs in the PS4, which would allow for backwards compatability and developers at this point are already used to dealing with the SPE's.

Is it just that integrating it into one chip with AMD would be too challenging?

 

[StevieP]

You can get much better performance out of console hardware than the same hardware on PC. No PC from 2005 would run Halo 4 at the same fidelity as the 360.

The 360 had a higher end GPU than most PCs in 2005, certainly. This is no longer the case. However, if you can kindly ask Microsoft to port Halo 4 we can test the theory. Until then, hardware isn't magic. Yes, you have more resources dedicated to gaming in a console, obviously, but the generally-thinner API is overstated, as is the myth of "console optimization" netting you some kind of doubling of power. Physics still exist in the real world. To state that "games on pc are only using 65 percent of your GPU" is patently false.

 

[thehypocrite]

False.

That's a very eloquent argument you got there. I'm convinced.

Let me put this link here so that you can understand that all games being developed today are created to use all the power available in the consoles, not the PCs. Maybe you know more than John Carmack.


http://www.gamefront.com/carmack-we-do-not-see-the-pc-as-the-leading-platform-for-games/

Carmack goes on to discuss the fact that while PCs are 10 times as powerful as consoles today, it’ll create “an inferior product” to expend “a tenth of the resources on a platform that’s 10 times as powerful.” So it makes more sense, he reasons, to develop for the lowest common denominator — the consoles — and focus on the effort of the development team in working on making the game fun. Instead of worrying about technology, he says, developing for consoles allows id to focus on gameplay, while the PC versions of games can be incrementally better. Developing primarily for PCs, on the other hand, makes for much weaker console games.

 

[StevieP]

Carmack sorta corrected himself on the "2x power" quote. I'm on mobile so I'm not going to be googling that for you.

 

[i-Lo]

If an 8 core jaguar processor is really 2X Cell, I wonder why they didn't just go with 2 CELLs in the PS4, which would allow for backwards compatability and developers at this point are already used to dealing with the SPE's.

Is it just that integrating it into one chip with AMD would be too challenging?

I'd assume development around this relatively weak but straight forward processor and porting among the platforms would be much more efficiently accomplished with Jag in drag than the Cell processor going into next gen.

 

[grimshawish]

My second thought is if MS will make adjustments to bring Durango around to a more even keel, or if they're confidant in their approach (with the disparity in OS and ram allocation, it certainly seems like the two have different priorities).

I think people are adding things in their head just to make them as equal as possible.
Prepare for Durango to come with Kinect.

I didn't think MS would do it, since Kinect is well...not quite a thing anymore; but the OS seems to me like something that can only really be there for constant calculations of something and a something that is complex enough (for example, having unexpected or not simple inputs) to require as much RAM to be sitting as rumoured.

Certainly its not for loading adverts on boot faster. Nor do I believe the OS is just bloated.


Surely a big reason for Kinect 1.0 being so dreadful can be followed to the hardware just not being able to do anything more complex than its blocky fat images? So it all seems to stem from that imo.

 

[thehypocrite]

The 360 had a higher end GPU than most PCs in 2005, certainly. This is no longer the case. However, if you can kindly ask Microsoft to port Halo 4 we can test the theory. Until then, hardware isn't magic. Yes, you have more resources dedicated to gaming in a console, obviously, but the generally-thinner API is overstated, as is the myth of "console optimization" netting you some kind of doubling of power. Physics still exist in the real world. To state that "games on pc are only using 65 percent of your GPU" is patently false.

You are missing the plot, I'm not saying these consoles will be more powerful than PCs, cause they won't if Sony or MSFT want to make money on them and consumers want to afford them, however it's performance will be a very significant jump vs the prior consoles. Also you cannot compare the individual parts that it has with the same performance they provide for PC because they aren't PCs, Don't work the same way, aren't coded the same way and developers have different aims when creating games for them.

 

[Death Dealer]

WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

Get real.

 

[Polari]

The 360 had a higher end GPU than most PCs in 2005, certainly. This is no longer the case. However, if you can kindly ask Microsoft to port Halo 4 we can test the theory. Until then, hardware isn't magic. Yes, you have more resources dedicated to gaming in a console, obviously, but the generally-thinner API is overstated, as is the myth of "console optimization" netting you some kind of doubling of power. Physics still exist in the real world. To state that "games on pc are only using 65 percent of your GPU" is patently false.

Well there's quite a significant difference in the sense that:

a) PC games have to be developed for a range of configurations rather than squeezing as much as possible out of a fixed set of specs
b) Have the overhead of Windows
c) Run on hardware that's intended for a range of purposes rather than gaming specifically

 

[Valnen]

If an 8 core jaguar processor is really 2X Cell, I wonder why they didn't just go with 2 CELLs in the PS4, which would allow for backwards compatability and developers at this point are already used to dealing with the SPE's.

Is it just that integrating it into one chip with AMD would be too challenging?

I'm guessing they want the PS4 to be easier to program for than the PS3. There are STILL developers that can't program on the PS3.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I'm guessing they want the PS4 to be easier to program for than the PS3. There are STILL developers that can't program on the PS3.

I don't see how an 8 core Jaguar processor is easier to program with...unless those cores are better at general processing than CELL's SPUs.

 

[Valnen]

I'm hoping for Backwards Compatibility but only cause I've missed some of the PS3 exclusives. It's definitely not a deal breaker and I wouldn't want them to add it at a ridiculous cost that it seems it may require...

No BC would definitely make me very angry. I have a lot of PSN content, and I don't want to ever lose access to that as long as PSN exists.

 

[Foil]

I'm hoping for Backwards Compatibility but only cause I've missed some of the PS3 exclusives. It's definitely not a deal breaker and I wouldn't want them to add it at a ridiculous cost that it seems it may require...

I also hope there's some type of backwards compatibility option. I wouldn't mind Sony releasing a seperate affordable add-on that has full BC with PS1/PS2/PS3/PSN titles. Atleast that way there's the option for people who want BC without affecting the actual PS4 hardware. Sony could also sell it for a profit to help with some of the early losses.

I would hope digitally that at the very least PSN purchased PS1 titles are able to transfer over. Bigger PSN games I could see not working, and that's fine.

 

[StevieP]

I don't see how an 8 core Jaguar processor is easier to program with...unless those cores are better at general processing than CELL's SPUs.

They Are, by orders of magnitude

 

[Valnen]

Bigger PSN games I could see not working, and that's fine.

It really isn't fine. They won't make PS3's forever, and all PS3's will break eventually.

 

[Man]

Windows RT is guaranteed to be a part of Durango me thinks. That's what I would do. I wonder if they will use Kinect as a pointer device (horrible) or of they will provide a lcd/touchpad controller.