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[brain_stew]

1. You think MS won't have a tools advantage, lol. MS tools will be better.
2. The 3gb of ram thing is just speculation, rather stupid speculation, full windows does not need that much ram so xbox 720 won't need anywhere near that much.



WTF are you talking about, the special sauce is used to enhance graphics, nothing else.


This is why Tools are important, and nobody is better than MS when it comes to tools. And so far all the insiders have said they have heard that the 720 is easier to dev for.

Sony's tools have come on leaps and bounds since the PS2 days and now they have an extremely develop friendly system architecture to go along with it. Developing for an x86 system with a 2 teraflop PC GPU and a large shared memory pool with gobs of bandwidth isn't going to be difficult, there's no major hurdles or bottlenecks to work around. Durango developers on the other hand have to deal with a GPU that is 50% weaker, and juggle a tiny (when dealing with deferred rendering in 1080p with MSAA; which should be the expected standard target for next gen, 32MB is incredibly small) eSRAM pool, to prevent hitting main memory with its pitiful amount of bandwidth.

Sony have created a developer oriented system this generation, not Microsoft. Microsoft have ambitions far outside the scope of a videogame console, and have prioritised resources accordingly.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Specs? Assuming Orbis given Durante has been "revealed."

Neither console specs has been revealed to the degree they could be... Hopefully we get some official documentation leaks the really delve into the specifics of both designs.

 

[Kun Aguero]

I also prefer wizard jizz lol

 

[Toski]

Cost.

The only way I can see a highly customized part costing less is if Microsoft has plans on shrinking everything real fast.

The customization to Durango's chipset must've been made with all the media functions it will serve, because it certainly doesn't seem to be for graphics. I wonder if Allard, Bach, Blackley & Co. would've signed off on Durango as it is rumored to currently be, or if they would've opposed it.

 

[Ashes]

So the PS4 has a:
-Better GPU
-CPU that is entirely focused on gaming
-Faster Ram

Yet we are going to believe that the new Xbox will be more powerful because apparently MS has a little secret part that is magically going to made up for all the above disadvantages? Wtf am I reading??

Any given computing system has a number of bottle necks that hinder performance. A weak cpu, a weak gpu, ram, power limits, etc etc etc. Of the things you mentioned:

cpu > It appears that Microsoft have additional dsp, accelerators and cores amongst other things to help in this regard. And perhaps they have an advantage on a lower level in the cpu too.

GPU > A gpu renders a scene using a lot of subsystems. Peak Single precision Raw floating performance will not highlight where in all that architecture, design wins exist and losses occur. It can be argued that Microsoft sought with the help of their Direct X team, to not go for wins through brute performance, but look at those subsystems and reduce bottle necks, and thus increase performance, through efficiency from the bottom up. So, instead of increasing clocks, increasing the number of CUs, perhaps because they are power limited, Team Direct X, one can argue, worked on those little things.

note. This won't mean they can go beyond 1.2 teraflops - well, basically because you can't. [ separate point: This is true, unless you have spus like in the cell helping the ppe, which might mean you are missing part of the picture, and you should really combine those spus to see how many tfs, the hardware is really capable of. Anyways, that's not what anybody is saying as far as I can see.]

This isn't magic. And I don't entirely agree, but you have to understand, this is what AMD Radeon and NVidia do every major architectural change.

Actually, not really. And this is where I'm stuck. This is plausible on paper. But no real reason to believe any of it. Because Transistor budgets continue to go up and up. It's far easier to believe a 7850 > 7770. Higher bandwidth, higher clocks, more CUs, etc etc etc.. They do do some things but not on this great a scale, in such a short gap, between architectures that are pretty similar.

So good luck Microsoft and their ventures on GPU architecture.. If I er.. have it correct.

This post is already too long. Somebody else do that ram part.

 

[ekim]

64 Pages. Not bad guys. Something interesting within these pages?

 

[ii Stryker]

What is this summary based on?

Some of this conversation reminds me of "the power of the Cell" and the "MS are doomed" predictions from early last gen. Never mind games, price, features, services and what have you. It's all about THE POWER as that's what really sells consoles.

It wasn't meant to be taken as a negative. It's clear though that MS's focus is to have XBL LIVE everywhere and Sony is simply making a game console with some entertainment stuff. I'm more interested to hear what the developers have to say about each system but my guess they'll be little to no difference in the game quality it'll come down more to which manufacturers ecosystem you like the most.

 

[itsgreen]

The only way I can see a highly customized part costing less is if Microsoft has plans on shrinking everything real fast.

The customization to Durango's chipset must've been made with all the media functions it will serve, because it certainly doesn't seem to be for graphics. I wonder if Allard, Bach, Blackley & Co. would've signed off on Durango as it is rumored to currently be, or if they would've opposed it.

Let's pretend for a second that the magic sauce, aka 'the jizz', can level the gap between Orbis and Durango... it would allow Durango to go for a 'cheaper', smaller graphics chip with lower power consumption and give reasonably the same level of performance.

Smaller graphics chip would ultimately enable earlier integration of both CPU and GPU in a single die.

And there the obvious advantages of lower power in terms of cooling, wattage, and size...

 

[deanos]

64 Pages. Not bad guys. Something interesting within these pages?

64 pages, 3000 comments, but one comment to rule them all:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46718115&postcount=2016

/thread.

 

[Terbinator]

Perfect.

 

[deanos]

one sauce to rule them all,
one sauce to find them,
one sauce to bring them all
and in the wizard jizz bind them.

 

[brain_stew]

Microsoft and Sony used the same partner, GPUs from the same generation that were each funded by the same PC development. Quit the damage control, quit the spin, a 1.2 teraflop GPU with a significant bandwidth disadvantage isn't going to compete with a 1.8 teraflop GPU with a huge increase in bandwidth from the same family of products and same manufacturer. Do people really think AMD would do some low level optimisations for one partner and not the other, really?

With regards to the CPU, are people really arguing that audio and video decodes are going to make a difference? Are people arguing that this same, very basic hardware that is integrated into everything from a TV, to a smartphone or modern GPU, won't be included in the PS4 as well?

Durango is a huge disappointment as a gaming machine launching in 2013/2014, no two ways around that. A faster system could have been released last year with a reasonable budget and despite taking a significantly more conservative approach compared to previous generations, Sony are still shipping a much faster gaming machine.

 

[daxter01]

64 Pages. Not bad guys. Something interesting within these pages?

yeah peapole here prefer Ian McKellen's Jizz apparently

 

[Toski]

Let's pretend for a second that the magic sauce, aka 'the jizz', can level the gap between Orbis and Durango... it would allow Durango to go for a 'cheaper', smaller graphics chip with lower power consumption and give reasonably the same level of performance.

Smaller graphics chip would ultimately enable earlier integration of both CPU and GPU in a single die.

And there the obvious advantages of lower power in terms of cooling, wattage, and size...

Thats the thing, we don't know if it exists or what it does. Microsoft could afford to lose the paper spec war with the PS3 because it didn't amount to anything in the real world, and the PS3 launched a year later. If Microsoft loses the paper spec war with Orbis launching a month or two behind... lets just say I don't think history will repeat.

 

[brain_stew]

So to summarize it's basically

Orbis gaming focused with entertainment features

Durango entertainment focused with gaming features

It also seems like the Durango's architecture will allow for complete backward compatibility.

How difficult would backward compatibility be for Orbis given its architecture?

I have to say I do think that watching tv with an XBL overlay and being able to launch seemlessly into a game from that does seem kinda cool. If that's what they're planning that is.

Easy tiger.

 

[Ashes]

Microsoft and Sony used the same partner, GPUs from the same generation that were each funded by the same PC development. Quit the damage control, quit the spin, a 1.2 teraflop GPU with a significant bandwidth disadvantage isn't going to compete with a 1.8 teraflop GPU with a huge increase in bandwidth from the same family of products and same manufacturer. Do people really think AMD would do some low level optimisations for one partner and not the other, really?

With regards to the CPU, are people really arguing that audio and video decodes are going to make a difference? Are people arguing that this same, very basic hardware that is integrated into everything from a TV, to a smartphone or modern GPU, won't be included in the PS4 as well?

Durango is a huge disappointment as a gaming machine launching in 2013/2014, no two ways around that. A faster system could have been released last year with a reasonable budget and despite taking a significantly more conservative approach compared to previous generations, Sony are still shipping a much faster gaming machine.

This.

Spoiler

I hope that doesn't apply to me. As I was merely recounting the argument that has been presented, and I didn't want to mention 'special sauce'.

 

[itsgreen]

Easy tiger.

The difficulty is always in emulating the GPU and specific dedicated hardware... that seems to be there...

I have my fingers crossed, but am preparing for a 'yeah, tough luck, we are not going to do that' from MS...

 

[SmokyDave]

Durango is a huge disappointment as a gaming machine launching in 2013/2014, no two ways around that.

Given the precedent set by the Wii-U, I honestly can't see this machine as a 'huge disappointment'.

Assuming this is the weaker of the two consoles, next gen is going to fucking rock.

 

[onimushroom]

48 fps 3D as standard for every game!

 

[StevieP]

Given the precedent set by the Wii-U, I honestly can't see this machine as a 'huge disappointment'.

Assuming this is the weaker of the two consoles, next gen is going to fucking rock.

Especially so if you built a new gaming PC after January 2011!

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Thats the thing, we don't know if it exists or what it does. Microsoft could afford to lose the paper spec war with the PS3 because it didn't amount to anything in the real world, and the PS3 launched a year later. If Microsoft loses the paper spec war with Orbis launching a month or two behind... lets just say I don't think history will repeat.

If the visual fidelity is within spitting distance of each other, which a fair amount of posts in B3D are pointing to, it will come down to price, features, and specific games. I have no doubt both companies and fanbases will spin the hell out of both consoles.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Let's pretend for a second that the magic sauce, aka 'the jizz', can level the gap between Orbis and Durango... it would allow Durango to go for a 'cheaper', smaller graphics chip with lower power consumption and give reasonably the same level of performance.

Smaller graphics chip would ultimately enable earlier integration of both CPU and GPU in a single die.

And there the obvious advantages of lower power in terms of cooling, wattage, and size...

Both are already single chip designs. Obviously a more modest design leaves more room in the budget to pack in a Kinect, for example.

 

[Maxrunner]

Given the precedent set by the Wii-U, I honestly can't see this machine as a 'huge disappointment'.

Assuming this is the weaker of the two consoles, next gen is going to fucking rock.

lol

 

[iamshadowlark]

Microsoft and Sony used the same partner, GPUs from the same generation that were each funded by the same PC development. Quit the damage control, quit the spin, a 1.2 teraflop GPU with a significant bandwidth disadvantage isn't going to compete with a 1.8 teraflop GPU with a huge increase in bandwidth from the same family of products and same manufacturer. Do people really think AMD would do some low level optimisations for one partner and not the other, really?

With regards to the CPU, are people really arguing that audio and video decodes are going to make a difference? Are people arguing that this same, very basic hardware that is integrated into everything from a TV, to a smartphone or modern GPU, won't be included in the PS4 as well?

Durango is a huge disappointment as a gaming machine launching in 2013/2014, no two ways around that. A faster system could have been released last year with a reasonable budget and despite taking a significantly more conservative approach compared to previous generations, Sony are still shipping a much faster gaming machine.

Nah just wait till MS unveils the secret sauce. You'll see, you'll all see.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

So much spin...

 

[brain_stew]

The difficulty is always in emulating the GPU and specific dedicated hardware... that seems to be there...

I have my fingers crossed, but am preparing for a 'yeah, tough luck, we are not going to do that' from MS...

Using x86 cores at 1.6ghz to emulate PowerPC cores at 3.2ghz is hardly a trivial matter to be brushed aside as many are doing. Expect no BC, and be pleasantly surprised if its there, not the other way round.

 

[SmokyDave]

Especially so if you built a new gaming PC after January 2011!

Which I did. Doesn't help me play Gran Turismo or Forza though.

The baseline moving higher will benefit PC gamers too.

 

[TheOddOne]

So much spin...

From all sides. Really.

 

[Kouriozan]

Given the precedent set by the Wii-U, I honestly can't see this machine as a 'huge disappointment'.

Assuming this is the weaker of the two consoles, next gen is going to fucking rock.

So you let an "inferior hardware" set the standard for next gen?
Also Vita, it had power and disappointed.

 

[Terbinator]

I'm hoping the gimped specs of Dante won't affect the AutoVista visuals in-game for Forza 5.

 

[Proelite]

Brain_stew had legitimate information on Wii U's poor CPU performance before it launched right? From what I remember he was a developer/insider?

 

[monome]

hummm...

Honestly I don't give a fuck if PS4 is 20% stronger in raw power.
By the time said power will be harnessed we will probably back on the topic of PC>Console.

MS is gonna invest a lot in marketing and building an ecosystem. It might not work.
But in a few years from now having all your favorite gadgets talking to each others is gonna be a requirement.

I can see a future where MS not only builds phones/tablets/consoles but also other electronic equipments or strike major deals with partners.

that's when a XBOX operating as a central hub for the home will strike a chord. and when Kinect, if usable, will show off.

When that happens Sony will eventually have a TV+PS4 combo that does indeed make games look arguably better.
And Steambox will shine on high-end PC monitors.


I'm more interested in the "breathing in tech" MS might offer if that means launching a new playlist while going to the toilets by simply saying it aloud.
I'm just not the kid who blows into cartridges anymore :-(

 

[SmokyDave]

So you let an "inferior hardware" set the standard for next gen?
Also Vita, it had power and disappointed.

Might've disappointed you but coming from a 3DS it blew my socks off.

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that I can't see these specs as a huge disappointment. Three consoles around the level of the Wii-U would've been a huge disappointment but both Durango and Orbis have me salivating at the prospects for the next generation of consoles.

 

[derFeef]

I'm hoping the gimped specs of Dante means we won't be seeing AutoVista visuals in-game in Forza 5 ;_;

You are hoping?

 

[Terbinator]

You are hoping?

The amount of times i re-wrote that and i knew it still didn't sound right.

*back to bed*

 

[StevieP]

Brain_stew had legitimate information on Wii U's poor CPU performance before it launched right? From what I remember he was a developer/insider?

Don't doubt him.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

From all sides. Really.

Yes. Exactly.

I notice both the EG articles have been posted on GI.biz, I was hoping for some comments from devs but it's all arguing about tablets.

 

[NBtoaster]

Why are so many people getting Durango's name wrong.

 

[Ashes]

Why are so many people getting Durango's name wrong.

Durante?

 

[Acheteedo]

I'm not sure I like where MS is going, but I think it's really going to work sales wise. If Sony just target gaming, then that'll be great for me but it will cause them to lose even more ground to Microsoft. All in one devices is where we're heading, and Microsoft will be leading that charge in the living room. We'll see how it plays out, but at this point in time I'm starting to feel the pull from PC gaming.

 

[mrklaw]

If hard disk access is in contention when the system is trying to play a game, record multiple shows and serve video streams to multiple clients all at once, having a large pool of RAM to buffer streams in will be really fucking important.

You and I may believe that, and all the old guard who launched Xbox may believe that, but the guys in charge now may just be salivating over Wii's profits and renewable service revenue from media.

how many multiple shows and multiple streams do you anticipate? Tivo manages three recordings of HD streams while playing back one HD stream locally and sending two HD streams to other boxes in your house.

On 512MB ram and a crappy CPU.

You don't need 3GB ram for this.

 

[Izayoi]

Microsoft what are you doing.

I don't like where this is headed at all.

 

[derFeef]

I am not a dev or a techie, but why is 1.3tflops "disappointing", while 1,8tflop is "awesome"?
Both seem relatively mild. And are those numbers achievable in the real world?

 

[StevieP]

I am not a dev or a techie, but why is 1.3tflops "disappointing", while 1,8tflop is "awesome"?
Both seem relatively mild. And are those numbers achievable in the real world?

They are only disappointing relative to any modern gaming PC. For the console space, with the base cost, heat/tdp restrictions involved and the reliability factors (along with the knowledge that die shrinks are going to be a much harder proposal this generation, and BoM going to some other non-standard device inclusions) the "1.8tf" theoretical peak figure was about the best you could expect out of these consoles and will provide you with great results in these customized SoCs.

I've been saying that for a while now, though.

 

[Brad Grenz]

how many multiple shows and multiple streams do you anticipate? Tivo manages three recordings of HD streams while playing back one HD stream locally and sending two HD streams to other boxes in your house.

On 512MB ram and a crappy CPU.

You don't need 3GB ram for this.

TiVo never has to worry about you trying to play your downloaded copy of Halo 5 while it's doing that. Microsoft have to be careful to maintain the integrity of the recording, the stream AND the gameplay all at the same time, even when all want to access the HDD simultaneously.

 

[derFeef]

They are only disappointing relative to any modern gaming PC. For the console space, with the base cost, heat/tdp restrictions involved and the reliability factors (along with the knowledge that die shrinks are going to be a much harder proposal this generation, and BoM going to some other non-standard device inclusions) the "1.8tf" theoretical peak figure was about the best you could expect out of these consoles and will provide you with great results in these customized SoCs.

I've been saying that for a while now, though.

That's what I get out of it too, so I don't know why Durango's GPU is now a massive disappointmend compared to the Orbis GPU, or have I missed some setup.

 

[Ashes]

They are only disappointing relative to any modern gaming PC. For the console space, with the base cost, heat/tdp restrictions involved and the reliability factors (along with the knowledge that die shrinks are going to be a much harder proposal this generation, and BoM going to some other non-standard device inclusions) the "1.8tf" theoretical peak figure was about the best you could expect out of these consoles and will provide you with great results in these customized SoCs.

I've been saying that for a while now, though.

You should post your earlier post. ;P

 

[acm2000]

according to EG, this info is 9 months old....

 

[Ashes]

according to EG, this info is 9 months old....

Do they have newer updates?

 

[ThisWreckage]

It is becoming increasingly obvious that Microsoft wants to focus on Kinect and it will be a huge part of their console launch. That's not to say that they're going to completely forget about core gamers, but the past three E3s have shown Sony's strategy compared to Microsoft's strategy.

Microsoft's E3 show from here on out will pretty much function as a CES conference. A large part of their conference will be throwing anything they can at casual gamers to see what can stick (spearheaded by Kinect 2.0), third party DLC exclusives, apps, a glimpse of one or two of their three big franchises (Gears, Halo, or Fable), more apps, a surprise or two, and did I mention apps? It is in my belief that they have completely lost focus and they're getting greedy. A console should have a strong focus and then it should branch out. That's what the 360 did. It was largely focused on the core gamer and they expanded with Kinect. Trying to do everything all at once out of the box is going to create a lot of internal confusion and argument in upper management. The fact that a lot of the big management gaming people have left Microsoft is troubling. If you ask me, it is very likely that Microsoft sacrificed hardware power just so they could include Kinect 2.0 in every box. This should make core gamers shiver.