Support NeoGAF

[I NEED SCISSORS]

I think people really need to go back and look at the KZ2 trailer again in HD. I think even in terms of "feeling" (lol), it is more visually appealing to me than the final game. That subtle level of realism and the conservative art direction is preferable to ten billion different post-processing filters, lubed up textures and lens flare stabbing you in the eye.

 

[Manmademan]

Okay, i'm fine with your point. But i really will not hate a new Nes era, really. C'mon Nintendo buy Sony and you will have nearly monopoly of console marketing share /trollface.

By the way, 3DS era is the same situation of Nes, no. Vita cant survive with the lack of system sellers, specially monster hunter...

not really, for a few reasons. if nintendo tried to throw their weight around in the portable sector, it would have repercussions for their console business which is facing much tighter competition and needs third party support. Nintendo isn't likely to risk this.

also: the 3DS is killing the vita, no doubt there- but smartphones and tablets are their biggest competitors, not sony. Nintendo needs to keep it's partners happy, lest they decide to simply port their games to android or IOS.

We're not likely to see a NES era repeat, ever. The industry is mature, and too many players are aware there's too much money to be made.

The only real problem with Nintendo, for me, is lack o power in their consoles, but if they give me a Persona 5 in cell shading i will be fine.

nintendo has always made questionable hardware decisions. it's sort of their MO. sometimes it pays off, sometimes it bites them in the ass.

 

[Jeff_Chen]

For PS3, most of them reached the image quality, but the native resolution were usually pathetic.

 

[EmperorLawlight]

Final product Killzone 2 looked better than the CG trailer.

Yeps.

 

[TGO]

This thread is funny
The target renders was match & surpassed by vision, the reason they was made "hence target render"
See you see KZ3 or 2 and people see the better things, improvements, etc and some of you guys are hanging on to that one thing which was never gonna be matched because its CG
I don't know about you guys but I see this as just a major troll, a desperate troll at that
There was a lot of target renders, not just by Sony
Uncharted 2 blows them out the water, GOW3 rips their head off
And Snake looked weird in the old trailers.........I think someone needs to get some other companies target rendered
Atleast Sony delivered them playable even if it was minus bs CGI effects

 

[FordGTGuy]

That makes no sense whatsoever. Duke Nukem was once very popular and it had a much longer development cycle than GT5, yet look at how it sold.

People weren't fooled by the hype with Duke Nukem like they were with GT5. Duke Nukem never had the prestige, following or sales of Gran Turismo. Just because Duke Nukem sold little and had low sales is not a proper excuse for what Polyphony did.

Everyone would prefer to have 1,000 premium models, but that just isn't going to happen. At least not at the moment. The standard models did their job.

This car that sounds like a vacuum is not doing it's job when it is sitting next to a premium car, the standard models did not do their job for that matter the standard models didn't deserve the job in the first place.

Polyphony definitely could've lowered the standards on the premium cars and had 500+ cars at or above Forza 4 quality.

Many fans seemed to get over the fact that they didn't look nearly as good as the premiums shortly after the game launched.

This is complete non-sense I heard no end of complaining about it while roaming racing game forums.

If you look in GT threads you'll find many people that get upset over the idea of entirely moving standard models from future games if there isn't a premium model to replace it.

This is insane it's like Polyphony walked into your kitchen peed in your bowl of cereal and all you can say is "Well at least they didn't crap in it but now that the pee is here I wouldn't have it any other way.".

Don't confuse blind love for Polyphony and Gran Turismo as the general attitude of the majority of people that bought and played the game.

 

[TGO]

Didn't it take ages just to render a car though, I kinda see why they did it

^^
And he never said that, they said they rather keep the 500+ cars then have them removed with no premium
Big difference

 

[EmperorLawlight]

Which game is this?

The proof is in the pudding. That's appropriate, right?

 

[WickedLaharl]

KZ2 is a fine looking game but it did not match nor exceed the CG trailer but I am amused that some people think it does.

 

[Sorral]

http://www.abload.de/img/vision53fkch.jpg

Selective picture picking must be awesome, right?

GT5. This was driven through different area including a city. Check the city track around the middle and the snow track toward the end:
http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/gt5-performance-analysis-compilation
The driver is bad though.

Vision GT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOPO7swloAI

Vision GT, as others mentioned previously, is just an upscale of GT4 running on PC. The trees and other environments show that... especially when you compare the trees in GT5 with the ones in vision:

vs

Keep in mind that I don't know if the GT shots are considered a bullshot since some are in photo mode. I am just comparing the assets used.

In regards to KZ and other target renders, a lot of people in this thread didn't play the games I guess...

 

[FordGTGuy]

Didn't it take ages just to render a car though, I kinda see why they did it

Really dude?

Forza 4 launched with 2 years or less development with 500+ cars of the quality above on similar hardware as GT5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv_M_-5RPck&feature=player_embedded

Turn 10 was laser scanning cars and managed to dyno every single engine sound for the game also.

^^
And he never said that, they said they rather keep the 500+ cars then have them removed with no premium
Big difference

Bottom-line the premium in GT5 should've been standard and anyone defending Polyphony is only making it easier for them to continue this behavior. You guys need to be critical even towards studios and games you respect if you aren't critical they will never reach their potential.

 

[meta4]

I think people really need to go back and look at the KZ2 trailer again in HD. I think even in terms of "feeling" (lol), it is more visually appealing to me than the final game. That subtle level of realism and the conservative art direction is preferable to ten billion different post-processing filters, lubed up textures and lens flare stabbing you in the eye.

Disagree. KZ2 art direction is unique , one of a kind and much much better than the CG trailer art direction.

 

[SneakyStephan]

If you didn't like the controls of Killzone2 its probably because you relied too heavily on the sights. The sights were practically useless for any short to medium range shot. I liked the change. First-person shooters should make iron sights less effective from short to medium ranges next gen, in my opinion.

150 ms input lag from the engine is not good or likeable no matter how you spin it.
It was shameful, as far as I'm aware kz2 is the single most unresponsive 30 fps game out there...

No developer ' chooses ' to have code that takes 150 ms to finish a frame from input to frame buffer, it's incompetence, no matter how pretty the game looks and how good the artists are.

 

[TGO]

KZ2 is a fine looking game but it did not match nor exceed the CG trailer but I am amused that some people think it does.

If you look at the screens shots & points made by the people who think it does, it does look better in that aspect I see their point
But alot of people are holding onto the fluidness and partical effects of a CG video which nothing even today will match because its CG

 

[malyce]

People weren't fooled by the hype with Duke Nukem like they were with GT5. Duke Nukem never had the prestige, following or sales of Gran Turismo. Just because Duke Nukem sold little and had low sales is not a proper excuse for what Polyphony did.

This car that sounds like a vacuum is not doing it's job when it is sitting next to a premium car, the standard models did not do their job for that matter the standard models didn't deserve the job in the first place.

Polyphony definitely could've lowered the standards on the premium cars and had 500+ cars at or above Forza 4 quality.

This is complete non-sense I heard no end of complaining about it while roaming racing game forums.



This is insane it's like Polyphony walked into your kitchen peed in your bowl of cereal and all you can say is "Well at least they didn't crap in it but now that the pee is here I wouldn't have it any other way.".

Don't confuse blind love for Polyphony and Gran Turismo as the general attitude of the majority of people that bought and played the game.

You mean the thousands from the gaming forums or the ~10 Million that bought the game? No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to play the game. The standard cars are about as much of an issue as 2D trees. The majority doesn't mind them, you do.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Polyphony definitely could've lowered the standards on the premium cars and had 500+ cars at or above Forza 4 quality.

Sure, they could've outsourced some models. But Kaz likes to have a hand in everything. So that meant that every car was going to be built by however many people are allocated to car modeling. And PD only has around 160 people working at the company. So even a best case scenario would probably put around 80 people on car modeling.

Don't confuse blind love for Polyphony and Gran Turismo as the general attitude of the majority of people that bought and played the game.

Wouldn't the game have stopped selling if there was some huge build up of negativity over it? Sales should've dropped like a rock after the initial launch, but they didn't. The game continues to sell just like every other GT game. By the next time they update it'll be over 10m copies.

No one is disagreeing that premium models are far better than standard models. But how exactly does having premium models hurt the game? You rarely have to use them in the single player mode as there's almost always a premium car that you can substitute in. So for the most part they're just there for those that want to use them. If you don't like them then you can basically ignore them. Personally, I rarely ever drove standard models.

 

[meta4]

How did I miss this early multiplayer prototype footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2psmSupTkg

 

[Sorral]

150 ms input lag from the engine is not good or likeable no matter how you spin it.
It was shameful, as far as I'm aware kz2 is the single most unresponsive 30 fps game out there...

It is shameful and it was never a choice on their end.

I disagree. I put a lot of hours into KZ2 and platinumed it. The input lag was never an issue for me. I actually didn't like the weightless feel of CoD after playing KZ2.

It was done as a design choice. If I remember right, they said it in an interview about the game and when they introduced that 'patch' to make it faster, which I thought did not really do anything but quiet people up about it. >_>

 

[SneakyStephan]

I disagree. I put a lot of hours into KZ2 and platinumed it. The input lag was never an issue for me. I actually didn't like the weightless feel of CoD after playing KZ2.

It was done as a design choice. If I remember right, they said it in an interview about the game and when they introduced that 'patch' to make it faster, which I thought did not really do anything but quiet people up about it. >_>

No, it's called PR.

 

[Loudninja]

Sure, they could've outsourced some models. But Kaz likes to have a hand in everything. So that meant that every car was going to be built by however many people are allocated to car modeling. And PD only has around 160 people working at the company. So even a best case scenario would probably put around 80 people on car modeling.



Wouldn't the game have stopped selling if there was some huge build up of negativity over it? Sales should've dropped like a rock after the initial launch, but they didn't. The game continues to sell just like every other GT game. By the next time they update it'll be over 10m copies.

Looking at Europe its been doing rather well even in 2013.

 

[CLEEK]

Polyphony definitely could've lowered the standards on the premium cars and had 500+ cars at or above Forza 4 quality.

Wasn't the whole point of it so that they'd never have to re-model them again? The high quality models used in GT5 will be used in GT6, GT7 etc, to drastically cut down the time it takes to produce the games.

Doing more, lower quality models defeats the entire benefit of this, and would mean GT6 had the same long development time as 5.

 

[TGO]

Really dude?

Forza 4 launched with 2 years or less development with 500+ cars of the quality above on similar hardware as GT5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv_M_-5RPck&feature=player_embedded

Turn 10 was laser scanning cars and managed to dyno every single engine sound for the game also.



Bottom-line the premium in GT5 should've been standard and anyone defending Polyphony is only making it easier for them to continue this behavior. You guys need to be critical even towards studios and games you respect if you aren't critical they will never reach their potential.

Forza looks like shit in gameplay
though?
But you are right premium & standard shouldn't have existed
But I think yet again that was down to time, remember we don't know the development cycle GT5 had 20 years developing or not

 

[Valnen]

150 ms input lag from the engine is not good or likeable no matter how you spin it.
It was shameful, as far as I'm aware kz2 is the single most unresponsive 30 fps game out there...

No developer ' chooses ' to have code that takes 150 ms to finish a frame from input to frame buffer, it's incompetence, no matter how pretty the game looks and how good the artists are.

I agree, it made the game literally unplayable for me.

 

[Sorral]

No, it's called PR.

PR or not >_> The game still kept the weighty feel because of the input lag.

They caved in about it in KZ3 and made the core fans hate it after catering to people who kept asking GG to remove it.

 

[injurai]

Holy fuck. That's not real-time...right?

It is. But it's also a single character model with nothing else. And downsampled into a small gif.

 

[meta4]

PR or not >_> The game still kept the weighty feel because of the input lag.

They caved in about it in KZ3 and made the core fans hate it after catering to people who kept asking GG to remove it.

Yeah. I really missed that feeling in KZ3 More importantly I hated the art style of KZ3 compared to 2. KZ2 was sheer poetry in motion. KZ3 art style was meh... I did like the Helghan jungle though and I wish it was in some other game and not KZ.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Sure, they could've outsourced some models. But Kaz likes to have a hand in everything. So that meant that every car was going to be built by however many people are allocated to car modeling. And PD only has around 160 people working at the company. So even a best case scenario would probably put around 80 people on car modeling.

Kaz needs to make sacrifices, if being a perfection hurt GT5 this badly he needs to rethink the way he develops games. The amount of developers they have are their own fault they could've hired more.

Wouldn't the game have stopped selling if there was some huge build up of negativity over it? Sales should've dropped like a rock after the initial launch, but they didn't. The game continues to sell just like every other GT game. By the next time they update it'll be over 10m copies.

It's the only major racing game on PS3 that anyone cares about of course it is still selling just like NFS continues to sell.

No one is disagreeing that premium models are far better than standard models. But how exactly does having premium models hurt the game? You rarely have to use them in the single player mode as there's almost always a premium car that you can substitute in. So for the most part they're just there for those that want to use them. If you don't like them then you can basically ignore them. Personally, I rarely ever drove standard models.

It lowers the standards of the game across the board and believe me I don't have to stop at standard cars there is even a huge quality gap between maps. It makes me very unhappy to know there are people out there that will not only stand for this shoddy work but will even make excuses for it.

What if 80% of all the characters you can have in your party in a PS3 Final Fantasy game were PS2 quality would that be excusable to you?

I'm sorry but I'm a car guy and a racing game fan I don't play racing games to ignore the cars in them.

Above is a picture I personally took of a track from the gold build of GT5, these guys are standing right off the road and are just as bad around the entire map.

You mean the thousands from the gaming forums or the ~10 Million that bought the game? No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to play the game. The standard cars are about as much of an issue as 2D trees. The majority doesn't mind them, you do.

Really? As someone who plays a lot of racing games including GT5 and Forza 4 the community response I've seen doesn't tell the same story.

When you guys aren't bothered with the sub-quality Polyphony provided you start a slippery slope that is only going to continue to lower the standards we hold game developers to.

Forza looks like shit in gameplay
though?
But you are right premium & standard shouldn't have existed
But I think yet again that was down to time, remember we don't know the development cycle GT5 had 20 years developing or not

Forza 4 might've not looked incredible but it was a good looking racing game when it came out and Horizon which runs on the same graphical engine as 4 shows that with proper AA Forza 4 would've looked much better.

GT5 had easily over 5+ years in development.

 

[Spongebob]

Forza looks like shit in gameplay
though?
But you are right premium & standard shouldn't have existed
But I think yet again that was down to time, remember we don't know the development cycle GT5 had 20 years developing or not

Joke?

 

[rvy]

Forza looks like shit in gameplay
though?

Now that's just silly.

 

[Piggus]

Polyphony definitely could've lowered the standards on the premium cars and had 500+ cars at or above Forza 4 quality.

No thanks. The reason they spent so much time on them is so that they would be essentially future proof. The premium models have so much detail that they'll be able to use them in GT6 with no problems.

 

[Wynnebeck]

Are you really defending what Polyphony did because of the sales they made? I thought it was perfectly clear that the sales of GT5 were artificially pushed up by the very long development time and popularity of the previous Gran Turismo games. I've heard many people in the racing game community say they were disappointed by GT5 and will not be buying another Gran Turismo game unless Polyphony doesn't repeat the same mistake in GT6.

Polyphony deserves to be blasted for what they did with Gran Turismo, just like Turn 10 should be blasted for removing Rally Di Positano from Forza 4.

I'm sorry but I don't care if they were running under the same physics engine that is not a good excuse for sounding like a vacuum cleaner and looking down right unacceptable, it's funny how Polyphony is able to get by without a single remark but if any other racing game studio did this there would be hell to pay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2juZOaPfAE

When a company can create Forza 4 in two years and it took you 6-7+ years to make GT5 you should be embarrassed.

lol Yeah you need to take your ridiculous attitude over to this thread:

Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

I'm sure they would love you.

 

[TGO]

Joke?

I do apologize, that was PGR

 

[segarr]

Forza looks like shit in gameplay
though?
But you are right premium & standard shouldn't have existed
But I think yet again that was down to time, remember we don't know the development cycle GT5 had 20 years developing or not

Like shit?

I do apologize, that was PGR

Lol, even more wrong

Edit: I mean wtf?

 

[FordGTGuy]

No thanks. The reason they spent so much time on them is so that they would be essentially future proof. The premium models have so much detail that they'll be able to use them in GT6 with no problems.

If GT6 is stuck with GT5 models I'll be sick they should've been developing for GT5 not future proofing for GT6.

lol Yeah you need to take your ridiculous attitude over to this thread:

Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

I'm sure they would love you.

My attitude is not ridiculous it's realistic.

Edit:Fuck I really hope this thread don't turns into a GT vs. Forza or a GT bashing thread...I'm fucking sick of then.

Na, I'm not going to keep arguing with these guys the points they are making is for lower quality and lower standards for game development and making excuses for what they did instead of actually being critical.

The excuse for focusing on premium models so they can use them in GT6 is just hilarious.

 

[JJD]

How did I miss this early multiplayer prototype footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2psmSupTkg

Wow I never saw that too!

I think KZ2 MP looks better than that, but I can't comment on 3 since I hardly played it's MP.

Going by the comments of the devs. it seems this is not a render but actual early gameplay.

PS. I fucking loved Pyrrhus!



Edit: Fuck I really hope this thread don't turns into a GT vs. Forza or a GT bashing thread...I'm fucking sick of then.

 

[rvy]

I do apologize, that was PGR

 

[Valnen]

As for the racing game bickering, Forza is superior because Viper on the cover .

 

[sant]

Forza is better than GT in every way, deal with it.

 

[Mobius1]

Disagree. KZ2 art direction is unique , one of a kind and much much better than the CG trailer art direction.

Yeah I'm with you on this. Did KZ2 meet or exceed the target render on a technical level? No, and I suppose that within the scope of the OP's question that's all there is to say.

But graphics are more than just IQ and polygons. The target render is artistically lifeless. Meanwhile KZ2 nails a very specific aesthetic style, and for that reason I think it's better.

 

[TGO]

PGR3 looked great in replays, not so much in gameplay
Just my opinion

^^^
Yeah back that view up to when you can actually see the car
All 3 are great looking games in photo/replay mode
But they kinda lost that when in gameplay

 

[JJD]

Forza is better than GT in every way, deal with it.

Oh shit here we go.

Take this crap to the appropriate thread please.

Forza discussion doesn't belong here.

 

[staticneuron]

That says nothing about volumetric particles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dRvons4ryA
@ 3:38

http://www.guerrilla-games.com/presentations/GDC09-vanderLeeuw-KZ2SPUsCaseStudy.pdf


Again they had systems in place with 3D and mesh based particles not just normal facing sprites and it produces some very interesting and noticeable effects starting with the very first level of Killzone 2 and the destruction of the bridge. I don't think they used it for "every" instance in which you saw smoke or fire ( I don't believe the PS3 could handle that), just in a few specific situations. Similar to some of the tricks they pulled with lighting. Not "every" light source was dynamic.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Forza is better than GT in every way, deal with it.

This is a ignorant statement there are plenty of things GT has over Forza.

 

[Piggus]

If GT6 is stuck with GT5 models I'll be sick they should've been developing for GT5 not future proofing for GT6.



My attitude is not ridiculous it's realistic.

What do you mean stuck with GT5 models? You do realize that in GT5, races use lower LOD models than what PD originally created, right? You only see the full detail model in photo travel mode. And those models are VERY detailed. It means that for GT6 they'll have had ~300 cars finished years before it's even available. Yes, it may have hurt GT5 slightly but it will pay off when GT6 rolls around.

Forza is better than GT in every way, deal with it.

Tell that to the people who actually play racing sims with a wheel. Also, InsideSimRacing said GT5 has better physics and that was before PD made the physics even better with updates. But there's a thread for this so I'm not going to get caught up in it. I'm out.

 

[malyce]

It lowers the standards of the game across the board and believe me I don't have to stop at standard cars there is even a huge quality gap between maps. It makes me very unhappy to know there are people out there that will not only stand for this shoddy work but will even make excuses for it.

What if 80% of all the characters you can have in your party in a PS3 Final Fantasy game were PS2 quality would that be excusable to you?

I'm sorry but I'm a car guy and a racing game fan I don't play racing games to ignore the cars in them.

Above is a picture I personally took of a track from the gold build of GT5, these guys are standing right off the road and are just as bad around the entire map.



Really? As someone who plays a lot of racing games including GT5 and Forza 4 the community response I've seen doesn't tell the same story.

When you guys aren't bothered with the sub-quality Polyphony provided you start a slippery slope that is only going to continue to lower the standards we hold game developers to.

As some one who truly enjoy racing games you sure spend a lot time taking in the scenery. I'm more concerned about my lap times and hitting my apexes than what the cardboard cut outs in the stands look like. Also, you're making it seem like the example you posted represents ALL the standard cars in the game when it's not so.

I have my gripes with GT5, i think the game itself is complete shit outside of the driving. The menus/mandatory animations/loading screens/layout etc, drive me up the wall and outside of the initial release week, I haven't touched the single player portion of the game. But does the driving make up for those things? Fuck yeah, and then some. GT5+Wheel = The best driving experience you'll have on console this gen. That's why the game continues and will continues to sell for years to come.

 

[tranciful]

People are still whining about standard cars...? Really?

I hope standard cars are in GT6, too. Extra content is extra content. Demanding they take out content is fucking stupid.

 

[Loudninja]

So this somehow became a racing topic haha.

 

[fixuis]

I disagree. I put a lot of hours into KZ2 and platinumed it. The input lag was never an issue for me. I actually didn't like the weightless feel of CoD after playing KZ2.

It was done as a design choice. If I remember right, they said it in an interview about the game and when they introduced that 'patch' to make it faster, which I thought did not really do anything but quiet people up about it. >_>

Absolutely agreed. Too bad it was ruined in kz3 by the cod crowd, but those of us who wanted something different and more mature, Loved the heaviness kz2 brought with it along with its dark gritty universe. Multiplayer was phenomenal and still unbeaten and the king afaiac. Incredible looking game. Sony really delivered on their promise from 2005. Specially loved Ign's E3 2007 impressions and the beginning:

Tonight's demo opened very similarly to what we saw two years ago. Clouds canvassed the screen until a soldier's head crept into view. He and others on his "cargo" vessel converse in short and abrupt sentences about how they're on their way to certain death. The scene is extremely similar to the lead-up to the invasion on Normandy Beach - certain hell is ahead, and the soldiers can't help but hold on to their helmets and hope to make it to the war zone intact and actually have a fighting chance.

A couple more vessels come into view, engines kicking below their flat surface while soldiers can only crouch and hold on to the thin railing. There's no protection here, nor even seats. Just as the clouds begin to part, one of the vessels is hit by incoming fire and begins plummeting to the very expansive city below. After falling for what seems like an eternity, it finally lands in a ball of flame as soldiers on the other vessels talk about how they're certain to die. Their commander tells everyone to lock and load...

The opening was once again fantastic, but we couldn't help but sit there and think, "When are we finally going to see some in-game footage?" The only thing was that we had been looking at in-game footage. As soon as our soldier hits the ground and his gun comes into view, very much like what we saw with the opening to Resistance, we couldn't help but think, "Holy hell, all of that was in-game?"

Indeed, it's quickly apparent that Guerilla has come much closer to the original trailer than most anyone thought possible. It's not 100% identical to be sure, but there are times (quite often) when it's really, really damn close.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2007/07/11/e3-2007-killzone-2-impressions


And then what they said in their review final score In regards to graphics and the overall game.

"Phenomenal visuals prove that Guerrilla either met or surpassed that infamous E3 trailer. Some technical issues hold it back from being a completely flawless masterpiece."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/01/29/killzone-2-review?page=4

 

[sant]

This is a ignorant statement there are plenty of things GT has over Forza.

Particle effects (tire smoke etc.) is the only area where GT is definitively better, and it is something that can be completely ignored in a comparison of the two.

 

[nib95]

Ok, GT5 is spotty in areas, but it's still gorgeous in others. On a side note, did Sony ever show a GT target render or anything? How did it jump on to GT or even Forza/PGR? Lol.