Support NeoGAF

[evilromero]

Always online would suck but no used games isn't a big deal to me.

 

[border]

I agree and i hope it does completely bomb.. i can't believe what i am seeing here such a ridiculously stupid decision by microsoft.

The only reason I might see this story as being false is that I don't believe Microsoft would so utterly and completely commit suicide. They wouldn't do this unless they had 100% assurance that Sony was doing the same thing, but I presume that would be impossible to get.

But hey, they might have looked at the iOS and Steam platforms and conclude that people really don't care about being able to rent games, borrow games, or buy used games. The crucial difference is that both Steam and iOS sell titles at a ridiculous discount. The restrictions on those platforms are reasonable, considering that most games are less than $20. Not a lot of people are going to buy a $60 retail title if it's locked to their account and their console.

 

[quest]

List of reasons, or excuses if you will, why people say they hack their console without being a pirate just got longer

Homebrew
Region free gaming
Backups
Offline gaming
Used games

And yes, piracy will likely increase alot if this rumor turns out to be true, no doubt, forcing people to pay full price and helping retailers to keep the price up is probably enough to turn people over.

Piracy will only increase if either have poor security. People are going pirate reguardless the price excuse is BS people pirate 99 cent apps and games. All these are is excuses to justify stealing.

 

[Fess]

It is very possible that the Wii U will be the only system to allow for used video games going forward.

That would honestly make me go WiiU-only this generation, with PC on the side for third party AAA titles.

 

[toddhunter]

The only reason I might see this story as being false is that I don't believe Microsoft would so utterly and completely commit suicide. They wouldn't do this unless they had 100% assurance that Sony was doing the same thing, but I presume that would be impossible to get.

But hey, they might have looked at the iOS and Steam platforms and conclude that people really don't care about being able to rent games, borrow games, or buy used games. The crucial difference is that both Steam and iOS sell titles at a ridiculous discount. The restrictions on those platforms are reasonable, considering that most games are less than $20. Not a lot of people are going to buy a $60 retail title if it's locked to their account and their console.

People pay for online when a free alternative is available. I don't see this as much worse to swallow and heck Microsoft are probably right...

Got to get the COD fix.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

So uh. Maybe Sega can jump in and not make it like this?

For real though, if this is true, fuck you Microsoft. I will NOT buy a sytem with this bullshit.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

List of reasons, or excuses if you will, why people say they hack their console without being a pirate just got longer

Homebrew
Region free gaming
Backups
Offline gaming
Used games

And yes, piracy will likely increase alot if this rumor turns out to be true, no doubt, forcing people to pay full price and helping retailers to keep the price up is probably enough to turn people over.

Piracy is most rampant on the Android market and those games/apps cost 99 cents.

Songs cost 99 cents on iTunes yet people have no problem pirating those.

Cost is not a big factor when it comes to piracy, the difficulty in pirating said material is. The number of hoops people had to jump through to pirate games on the PS3 is what kept it in check. Pirating games on the 360 was a piece of cake comparatively. We already know what happened with the Wii.

 

[BocoDragon]

If this is true, it smells of hubris.

Third consoles are a great time for a platform holder to reek of hubris!

 

[bangai-o]

I SINCERELY doubt that they would be as consumer friendly as Steam would be.
I mean if the Steam-Box doesn't change anything you would still be able to install your Steam games on any number of PC systems as well right?

Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that MS would allow you to easily transfer games to a new console you bought? I mean currently you can only have an XBL account activated on a single system correct? Microsoft takes a very draconian stance on issues like this and I don't see anything changing.

yes? it already is that easy.

 

[Fess]

Piracy is most rampant on the Android market and those games/apps cost 99 cents.

Songs cost 99 cents on iTunes yet people have no problem pirating those.

Cost is not a big factor when it comes to piracy, the difficulty in pirating said material is. The number of hoops people had to jump through to pirate games on the PS3 is what kept it in check. Pirating games on the 360 was a piece of cake comparatively. We already know what happened with the Wii.

True, but I think something like this could turn non-pirates into pirates too out of pure disappointment, which makes piracy increase even more.

 

[RoKKeR]

To be honest, none of this bothers me.

 

[border]

People pay for online when a free alternative is available. I don't see this as much worse to swallow and heck Microsoft are probably right...

I think a lot of people put up with the iOS restrictions because Apple is actually quite liberal about installing games/apps to multiple devices (so is Valve, though not to the same extent). Whether or not MS will be as flexible remains to be seen.

People put up with XBL Gold costs because they bought into the 360 ecosystem before really thinking about it. They'd rather cough up $40-60/year in fees because the alternative would require them to buy an entirely new console and replacie many of their 360 games with the PS3 version. Xbox 360 had a pretty big headstart on the PS3.....not just in terms of timing, but also in pricing. Xbox 360 arrived 1 year earlier, but even after the PS3 launch Sony's system was not priced comparably to the 360 until a year afterwards. So that's essentially two years of uncontested dominance -- they will not have that advantage this time around.

 

[BocoDragon]

Normally I'd say "oh I'm gonna hack the shit out of you, Xbox"... but surely if the console is always-online, the games will be chock full of always-online features. Ripping your games to a hacked Xbox is going to be an experience full of holes.

 

[bangai-o]

There is a zero percent chance Amazon or Best Buy would boycott

why zero? Amazon already doesnt sell Nintendo hardware.

 

[Quasar]

I think a lot of people put up with the iOS restrictions because they are actually quite liberal about installing games/apps to multiple devices. Whether or not MS will be as flexible remains to be seen.

My understanding is that they are currently. People install stuff onto multiple windows machines using the same account now. Dunno what the limitation is.

 

[toddhunter]

I think a lot of people put up with the iOS restrictions because they are actually quite liberal about installing games/apps to multiple devices. Whether or not MS will be as flexible remains to be seen.

People put up with XBL Gold costs because they bought into the 360 ecosystem before really thinking about it. They'd rather cough up $40-60/year in fees because the alternative would require them to buy an entirely new console and replacing many of their 360 games with the PS3 version. Xbox 360 had a pretty big headstart on the PS3.....not just in terms of timing, but also in pricing. Xbox 360 arrived 1 year earlier, but even after the PS3 launch Sony's system was not priced comparably to the 360 until a year afterwards. So that's essentially two years of uncontested dominance -- they will not have that advantage this time around.

Makes sense... The difference this time is people still have that xbl investment. Even if the PS4 is out first, there is probably going to be a fair bit of "wait and see" especially if Microsoft FUD it up, which is kind of their thing.

I'm sure they will time it all around the next halo or cod too. Microsoft are stupid, but they are not dumb.

 

[Casanova]

Dear Microsoft:

 

[Kusagari]

why zero? Amazon already doesnt sell Nintendo hardware.

Every indication is that's because of how the 3DS screen scratching fiasco went down between the two companies.

I really doubt Amazon's going to boycott the Xbox because MS doesn't allow used games. It makes no sense.

 

[thepotatoman]

Isn't it something like only 60% of 360s are connected? Do Microsoft really want to turn FORTY PERCENT of their buyer to Sony? If I was Sony and I kinda knew that this was happening, and it wouldn't be hard to find out, they could just do the opposite and get an extra 30 million sales.

I wonder how much of that 40% is because of microsoft leaving out the wifi for a long time while offering an insanely overpriced adapter as your only option.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

I think a lot of people put up with the iOS restrictions because Apple is actually quite liberal about installing games/apps to multiple devices (so is Valve, though not to the same extent). Whether or not MS will be as flexible remains to be seen.

I think the typical price of an iOS purchase has to be considered here.

 

[Eusis]

I wonder how much of that 40% is because of microsoft leaving out the wifi for a long time while offering an insanely overpriced adapter as your only option.

Might be interesting to get the numbers on PS3 then. All units but early 20 GB models have wi-fi built in, so that becomes a non-factor.

 

[Laughing Banana]

The sad thing is, if Sony is doing the same thing, then Nintendo is the only one left who doesn't right? Well, several people in here already said that this means the 3rd parties will be even more compelled to go away from Nintendo, seeing that Nintendo doesn't want to play by the rules.

What's sad is--if in the end it turns out like that--basically, Nintendo is getting shunned off by doing "the right thing" for the customers.

Game industry is really, really perplexing sometimes. It seems like the sides that create content and the sides who consume that content are always at odds at each other and trying to fight with one another---the former especially than the latter.

 

[BocoDragon]

I had really hoped they'd just wait until digital-only to pull this shit. At least then they could have got what they wanted and looked innocent. This just looks dirty.

 

[Foffy]

They are simply not going to comment on something not announced, neither would Sony or Nintendo or any company for that matter. They all just say we don't comment on rumors or speculation. That's it. That's how you handle these things. There's nothing to read into their silence either way.

Nintendo, and particularly Shigeru Miyamoto, actually commented on Wii U rumors. He was asked a few weeks before E3 regarding the reports of a tablet, and he very firmly hinted that "where there's smoke there's usually a fire", were the words he used I think. The silence regarding this is rather telling. It either means Microsoft doesn't care of the pretty negative response core gamers are having with this, is testing the waters to see what such a response would be in the first place, or that this is some hocus pocus. The latter of which is currently giving them quite the negative light, so I'd assume they would at least want to comment on that...

 

[Eusis]

The sad thing is, if Sony is doing the same thing, then Nintendo is the only one left who doesn't right? Well, several people in here already said that this means the 3rd parties will be even more compelled to go away from Nintendo, seeing that Nintendo doesn't want to play by the rules.

What's sad is--if in the end it turns out like that--basically, Nintendo is getting shunned off by doing "the right thing" for the customers.

Game industry is really, really perplexing sometimes. It seems like the sides that create content and the sides who consume that content are always at odds at each other and trying to fight with one another---the former especially than the latter.

Well, it'll be interesting if 3rd parties go that way, only for CONSUMERS to generally not get the next Xbox/Playstation. That's probably the kind of thing that'd cause a crash: you PLAN for a lot of games to go to the locked down consoles, you even make a point to ostracize the odd one out, yet the odd one out is the one that actually does well while the others are grave yards.

On the other hand, maybe people will just get them on PC? That'd actually be interesting, if they in pushing too hard for control inadvertently reset things to how they were for the most part in the 90s: most of the western output worth caring about is on PC, and likewise most of the Japanese content worth caring about is on consoles.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I could see that plausibly happening even if Sony allowed used games but as a result non-Japanese third parties ostracized them and went to Xbox/PC instead. Just it'd be less like the 8-bit or 16-bit days and more like the 32-bit days.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

Let's say these rumors are true. Need to be online, games tied to consoles, DRM.

I (reluctantly) buy my library of games digitally.
Xbox720 (for example) does poorly next gen, due to their prohibitive practices.
Microsoft pulls out of the console business, like many others before them.
They pull the plug on Xbox Live services (kinda like they did with Xbox1 games.)

Then, my Xbox720 dies (RROD.)

What happens to all the games I bought?

 

[border]

I think the typical price of an iOS purchase has to be considered here.

Well yeah, I mentioned in an earlier post that people like Steam/iOS because they can get great games for like $5-10 on Steam, Free-$5 on iOS. Once you start charging $60 for a full title, resale value factors heavily into the equation.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

i hate how nintendo is with hardware, but id go nintendo only if sony did this too.

 

[Eusis]

i hate how nintendo is with hardware, but id go nintendo only if sony did this too.

Yeah, though I tend to not sweat it too much so long as the games are good and perform alright. And even then I just wish they actually did go for a "1.5" generation leap rather than, uhh, "1.1"

 

[Poohblaster]

I'm fine with it, I hope both Microsoft and Sony do it. Steam is a great service and if Microsoft and Sony are able to replicate it I'm on board. If Microsoft or Sony messes up it I'll just stick with Steam. Screw Gamestop and screw used game sales.

Spoiler

Full disclosure I'm a software engineer and think pirates should burn in hell.

 

[subrock]

A system like Apples App Store or the Google Play Marketplace would be interesting. No used sales, and the publishers have full control over the pricing but Microsoft takes a percentage of it.

This is why I'm fine with this news. Apple's App Store is a kick-ass consumer experience. I buy from that store with confidence even though I can't return games/sell them second hand. I know the price points are under $5 mostly, but I wouldn't really mind paying proper retail for a digital copy of a AAA game if it meant a similar buying experience.

If the console game with a proper digital marketplace with reviews/publisher controlled pricing I think it would be great for the industry, especially if it allowed more indie developers to self publish. Hell, I'd consider making a $.99 game if it worked like the App Store.

 

[Foffy]

I'm fine with it, I hope both Microsoft and Sony do it. Steam is a great service and if Microsoft and Sony are able to replicate it I'm on board. If Microsoft or Sony messes up it I'll just stick with Steam. Screw Gamestop and screw used game sales.

Spoiler

Full disclosure I'm a software engineer and think pirates should burn in hell.

I hope you don't compare used games sales to piracy, because that would be awfully hilarious.

 

[Poohblaster]

I hope you don't compare used games sales to piracy, because that would be awfully hilarious.

No, I buy used games myself. I just won't miss them.

 

[Fistwell]

If this is true, it smells of hubris.

Yeah this is microsoft's very own $599.

 

[BocoDragon]

I hope you don't compare used games sales to piracy, because that would be awfully hilarious.

I wanted to debate him too.... but actually the "always on" will make piracy look a lot less attractive. A pirated game's list of features will look like swiss cheese considering all the always-on functions won't work.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Sounds very PC/Steam'ish. Hopefully they compensate like with Steam and have really good sales. If Sony went the same route and still offered PS+ they get a lot more subscribers.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Antiochus]

When the dust finally clears in 2018, only one console out of the three giants shall survive, and only then barely from the brink of death. The question is.......which one?

 

[Foffy]

I wanted to debate him too.... but actually the "always on" will make piracy look a lot less attractive. A pirated game's list of features will look like swiss cheese considering all the always-on functions won't work.

How much does that matter, though? If someone wants to just play a single player game, I don't particularly see what they're missing here. Furthermore, who's to say there couldn't be exploits or ways to circumvent the system AND still have online? Doesn't that still happen on PC and 360 anyway?

 

[Yagharek]

Let's say these rumors are true. Need to be online, games tied to consoles, DRM.

I (reluctantly) buy my library of games digitally.
Xbox720 (for example) does poorly next gen, due to their prohibitive practices.
Microsoft pulls out of the console business, like many others before them.
They pull the plug on Xbox Live services (kinda like they did with Xbox1 games.)

Then, my Xbox720 dies (RROD.)

What happens to all the games I bought?

You get to support the publishers a second time!

 

[Spieler Eins]

When the dust finally clears in 2018, only one console out of the three giants shall survive, and only then barely from the brink of death. The question is.......which one?

 

[border]

How much does that matter, though? If someone wants to just play a single player game, I don't particularly see what they're missing here. Furthermore, who's to say there couldn't be exploits or ways to circumvent the system AND still have online? Doesn't that still happen on PC and 360 anyway?

PC developers have already made big singleplayer games that require a constant internet connection. Assassin's Creed jumps immediately to mind (as does Diablo).

 

[Duxxy3]

Oh god... what if Sony and Microsoft fuck up so badly that Nintendo takes another generation. Well i guess it could be worse - at least it will be in HD this time.

PC developers have already made big singleplayer games that require a constant internet connection. Assassin's Creed jumps immediately to mind (as does Diablo).

Those are some god awful examples.

Assassins creed (among other PC flops) did so poorly that Ubisoft completely changed their DRM scheme. Diablo 3 has been blasted since before launch and still 8 months after launch for having always online DRM.

 

[Foffy]

PC developers have already made big singleplayer games that require a constant internet connection. Assassin's Creed jumps immediately to mind (as does Diablo).

I know Assassin's Creed has been hacked to circumvent that because online is not a mandatory thing for features of the game. In fact, if it doesn't have some MMO-esque service in the game, I'm quite sure it's been circumvented. I said it before but Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 requires an online connection to play, but hackers have been able to break that. And that's on the walled garden console market. There is nothing to say this idea of always online will be perfect and prevent any type of circumvention, as human history has only shown that to eventually happen on any type of service.

 

[BocoDragon]

How much does that matter, though? If someone wants to just play a single player game, I don't particularly see what they're missing here. Furthermore, who's to say there couldn't be exploits or ways to circumvent the system AND still have online? Doesn't that still happen on PC and 360 anyway?

Forget about online meaning just 'multiplayer'. "Single player" games on an always-connected console are gonna be chock full of online hooks: Social sharing features integral to the game, constantly changing media resources loaded from the internet (ie in-game billboards), game economies that depend on interaction with others.

Of course it will be possible to play totally hacked versions... but when it's missing all kinds of features, it will be so much less appealing than pirating a single player game today.

And while it might be possible to get your hacked game online...... they'll ban you if they find you. It just makes the whole hacking enterprise very unappealing. Pirates won't have their cake and eat it too.

I know Assassin's Creed has been hacked to circumvent that because online is not a mandatory thing for features of the game. In fact, if it doesn't have some MMO-esque service in the game, I'm quite sure it's been circumvented. I said it before but Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 requires an online connection to play, but hackers have been able to break that. And that's on the walled garden console market. There is nothing to say this idea of always online will be perfect and prevent any type of circumvention, as human history has only shown that to eventually happen on any type of service.

This isn't just about online DRM checks. Of course you are right that those can be easily broken.

Think more like the new Sim City. I haven't played it, but I believe that neighboring cities are based upon online users. So what happens if you don't have the net... Is the game broken? Will pirates have to hack in some fake neighbour data? Would they bother or is that even possible without a massive effort?

 

[DidntKnowJack]

But guys....blu-ray.


...



Guys?

 

[BocoDragon]

But guys....blu-ray.


...



Guys?

A Blu-ray that makes me check the internet to use it.

Why, that's not like blu-ray at all... it's more like: DIVX (*shudder*)

 

[Scarecrow]

Only way I see this kind of working is if MS lets companies set their own prices for their games.

 

[strangecloud]

I forsee this upcoming generation being the transition into the online only model but I could not fathom going straight into this model and locking out the large user base that lacks sufficient internet capabilities. My bets are on for both companies to promote connectivity and networking heavily for new AAA even moreso than this current generation with many "benefits" to being online.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Ironically, the pirates will find a way to play the games without the activation codes.

...

Wait, is that "ironic" or "painfully obvious?"

 

[BocoDragon]

I forsee this upcoming generation being the transition into the online only model but I could not fathom going straight into this model and locking out the large user base that lacks sufficient internet capabilities. My bets are on for both companies to promote connectivity and networking heavily for new AAA even moreso than this current generation with many "benefits" to being online.

I would much prefer a generation like that, with the focus on incentivizing online connection, and next-next gen, go digital only.