VGLeaks: Durango's Move Engines

Everyone and everything is suspect until the official press releases and shipped hardware are out. People purporting to be "in the know" are especially suspect.

That said, wouldn't be surprised if the final specs were in this ballpark.
 
Karak said:
Read my post a bit above. Its par for the course in these gens. We will have thread lords FAR worse as we get closer. Its always the same and happens in all these threads. One mans rumour is another man's fact ones man's gulf is another mans small difference(sounds like a personal problem!). Discussion is batted down and then switched around all the time. Sad but a fact of life.

Got to go MS confirming all true rumors on MSNBC RIGHT NOW!
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oh yeah, I've been here for 6 or 7 years. Way longer than that as a lurker (couldn't sign up with my email, lol) so this isn't my first time to the rodeo. But it IS my first time for a GAF console launch war while I'm also working, getting stuff ready for a wedding and just all around being a more social person IRL. These days I don't have time to fuck around for 4-5 hours straight on GAF. Now I need to catch up on stuff a lot quicker and having the thread turn into a console dick measuring contest is annoying and a waste of time. Orbis is more powerful, great! I'm there day one. That's why I work, to afford shit that I like (games). But I still want to know about Durango without having to wade through the bullshit. I went to see if there were any new leaks of what we could expect on the 20th and all I saw for the 10 pages I read were Kaz gifs. Entertaining as fuck, don't get me wrong. I mean some real classics in there! I just thought that it would be a lot more actual info when I saw the thread count. But as I said earlier, I can't blame other posters for my scheduling. Hell, 5 years ago I would be following the Kaz thread like a hawk.
 
Deuterium said:
LOL. So, Please name these sources of information? So far, the unofficial rumors, speculations and leaks seemed to be coming from VGLeaks and Edge...which have a vested interest in generating traffic and all sorts of fan-boy excitement.

Can you name a single...and I mean ONE SINGLE FRIGGIN' source that is officially a Manufacturer's representative, or Developer/Publisher that has gone on the record, using their name and title?
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Can you name one for all the rumours being spread by superdae and the other super fellow ? No you can't. So why are people discounting the vgleaks rumours (which have actual meat lot them) for these one liners from nobodies ?
 
KidBeta said:
Because it is up to the person making a claim to provide evidence and not the person who says the claim is false, it rubs me the wrong way because those guys post obvious bullshit and then it gets parroted as gospel truth.

I believe in looking and things objectively and basing truth on that and also presented evidence it feels like people lose there ability to look at anything in a rational manner once it becomes something like next gen console rumors and that is something I'm trying to help stop.

But the only evidence I have heard of in favour of these guys does not present itself in anyway as being high enough for us to trust them on a topic where not many people know the real answer.

They did something like vgleaks and posted a lot of detailed information instead of just giving coy answers to claims that they are wrong I might believe them , but until then I do not see any reason to.

So yes I am practically saying he is lying in a nicer way because thats what all the evidence points to and fanboys don't want to see this, I want both consoles to be powerful and well made but sometimes it gets really out of hand.
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We've made it to this point in which rumors, which haven't even been confirmed from both console makers is true or not. The legitimacy of rumors. My mind is full of fuck right now.
 
KidBeta said:
Can you name one for all the rumours being spread by superdae and the other super fellow ? No you can't. So why are people discounting the vgleaks rumours (which have actual meat lot them) for these one liners from nobodies ?
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I don't have to. Why is this so fucking hard to understand? It is not official and confirmed until it is announced by Microsoft or Sony, or one of their Developers jumps the gun and goes on the record (which won't happen). Until then...EVERYTHING is speculation.

I saw this same shit happen back in the last generation.
 
jaypah said:
oh yeah, I've been here for 6 or 7 years. Way longer than that as a lurker (couldn't sign up with my email, lol) so this isn't my first time to the rodeo. But it IS my first time for a GAF console launch war while I'm also working, getting stuff ready for a wedding and just all around being a more social person IRL. These days I don't have time to fuck around for 4-5 hours straight on GAF. Now I need to catch up on stuff a lot quicker and having the thread turn into a console dick measuring contest is annoying and a waste of time. Orbis is more powerful, great! I'm there day one. That's why I work, to afford shit that I like (games). But I still want to know about Durango without having to wade through the bullshit. I went to see if there were any new leaks of what we could expect on the 20th and all I saw for the 10 pages I read were Kaz gifs. Entertaining as fuck, don't get me wrong. I mean some real classics in there! I just thought that it would be a lot more actual info when I saw the thread count. But as I said earlier, I can't blame other posters for my scheduling. Hell, 5 years ago I would be following the Kaz thread like a hawk.
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Congrats on getting married! Awesome man.

This will probably settle down. One thing I find difficult at times is the selective leak belief where both leaks may come from one source but only 1 bit of it(whatever the person wants to believe is believed) that comes up allot. Over time I usually find I can ignore it. Nothing confirmed until CONFIRMED:) And in the case of the Wiiu maybe a long time later:)

One place I can point you to where they talk more tech and have less bitching about the leaks themselves is the B3d Forums.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62867&page=37

Lots of actual fact based ideas around the leaks and its cool to just see the though process of the people who actuall code and dev all in one space with far less...hmmm...time wasting I guess would be the word.

Anyway congrats on the marriage man! ( if its you getting married and you are not just randomly helping someone else:)
 
Deuterium said:
I don't have to. Why is this so fucking hard to understand? It is not !official and confirmed until it is announced by Microsoft or Sony, or one of their Developers jumps the gun and goes on the record (which won't happen). Until then...EVERYTHING is speculation.

I saw this same shit happen back in the last generation.
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exactly. I like the rumors and speculation. It's fun and something to chat about to pass the time until this ball gets rolling. But the "don't believe the hype!" brigade chips away at that fun. I've already said I'm not trusting SuperDAE these days but it's still fun to chat about the "what ifs" that stem from his tweets. I don't need to be corrected or asked for proof for something that I'm only using for discussion purposes in the first place. It's a tweet from an unofficial source...fuck I care if it's true or not? I'm just looking to read some thought out post that may stem from the tweet.

Karak said:
Congrats on getting married! Awesome man.

This will probably settle down. One thing I find difficult at times is the selective leak belief where both leaks may come from one source but only 1 bit of it(whatever the person wants to believe is believed) that comes up allot. Over time I usually find I can ignore it. Nothing confirmed until CONFIRMED:) And in the case of the Wiiu maybe a long time later:)

One place I can point you to where they talk more tech and have less bitching about the leaks themselves is the B3d Forums.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62867&page=37

Lots of actual fact based ideas around the leaks and its cool to just see the though process of the people who actuall code and dev all in one space with far less...hmmm...time wasting I guess would be the word.

Anyway congrats on the marriage man! ( if its you getting married and you are not just randomly helping someone else:)
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thanks Karak! Yup, my wedding. I'm marrying my best friend and long time gaming girlfriend! She has vowed that we will always own whatever consoles are on the market and we are currently building a classic video game collection, flea markets and classified ads and such. She really is a great girl and my soul mate!

I read B3D a lot but I have a soft spot for GAF. This place has gotten me through a lot of tough times when I wasn't such a happy person. So even though B3D is better for catching up on some tech reading I have a need to visit GAF whenever I can. I don't know, it's just a part of who I am now. That's why earlier I mentioned that I can't be mad at other posters for their posting styles. GAF didn't change, I did. It's not fair to call out other members of the community for doing the same shit that I used to do.

anyway, thanks again for the congrats!
 
jaypah said:
thanks Karak! Yup, my wedding. I'm marrying my best friend and long time gaming girlfriend! She has vowed that we will always own whatever consoles are on the market and we are currently building a classic video game collection, flea markets and classified ads and such. She really is a great girl and my soul mate!

I read B3D a lot but I have a soft spot for GAF. This place has gotten me through a lot of tough times when I wasn't such a happy person. So even though B3D is better for catching up on some tech reading I have a need to visit GAF whenever I can. I don't know, it's just a part of who I am now. That's why earlier I mentioned that I can't be mad at other posters for their posting styles. GAF didn't change, I did. It's not fair to call out other members of the community for doing the same shit that I used to do.

anyway, thanks again for the congrats!
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Lucky man. My wife likes the occasional game but isn't as into it as I am. Makes it a bit lonely except for all my pals. But its not the same as having that significant other that plays.
 
Karak said:
Lucky man. My wife likes the occasional game but isn't as into it as I am. Makes it a bit lonely except for all my pals. But its not the same as having that significant other that plays.
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haha, my homies rarely play with me these days so thank God for my girl. Though I'll always miss sitting around and bullshitting while playing games with my crew.
 
I just came in this thread to see what new info I could find out about Durango w/o all the mumbo jumbo and I'm reading the last 5 posts about jaypah's freakin wedding and how happy he is with his gaming wife. Blaaaahhhh, give me Durango details, not this life story crap.
Back to the Playstation Mee.......*ahem*....Kaz Thread
/troll
 
mr_nothin said:
I just came in this thread to see what new info I could find out about Durango w/o all the mumbo jumbo and I'm reading the last 5 posts about jaypah's freakin wedding and how happy he is with his gaming wife. Blaaaahhhh, give me Durango details, not this life story crap.
Back to the Playstation Mee.......*ahem*....Kaz Thread
/troll
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b315ekgj.jpg


PS: I somehow doubt we will see any exciting new info about those move units right now. At least not from those super-whatevers from twitter.
 
Just starting to realize the leak from ~8 months ago (slideshow) was likely real

This gen is going to be reaaaaalllllly interesting
 
dragonelite said:
that thing had 2 cpu and 2 gpu and cpu clocked at 2Ghz?
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Actually 3 CPUs.

Remember this doc is 2010

But everything seems to be mostly agreeing with this presentation...


amstradcpc said:
No. Another GPU doesn´t fit in the 120 Watts total budget of those slides.
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Besides being a marketing presentation... I think the GPU on right is mischaracterised... It's not a super powerful GPU...

It definitely sub 20W and only for OS functions/overlay (display plane) and very likely part of the silicon for the audio stuff
 
DopeyFish said:
It's essentially describing what vgleaks has been showing minus the SoC and 360 CPU

Yes the wattages are messy... But it's not a technical doc
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vgleaks described a entire system, without any of this.

vgleaks is using DDR3 at high speeds, not DDR4.

vglekas describes a completey different GPU.

This and vgleaks cannot both be true.
 
DopeyFish said:
Actually 3 CPUs.

Besides being a marketing presentation... I think the GPU on right is mischaracterised... It's not a super powerful GPU...

It definitely sub 20W and only for OS functions/overlay (display plane) and very likely part of the silicon for the audio stuff
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a > 500GFLOP GPU for overlays?

No, just no.
 
KidBeta said:
vgleaks described a entire system, without any of this.

vgleaks is using DDR3 at high speeds, not DDR4.

vglekas describes a completey different GPU.

This and vgleaks cannot both be true.
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Specs change

Remember this is supposedly 3 years old

They are figures in which they are "aiming" for


KidBeta said:
a > 500GFLOP GPU for overlays?

No, just no.
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And recording from potentially multiple sources (encoding) and streaming (decoding) doing in-game OS (guide, overlays from OS/apps) etc etc

IMO it's basically the 360 GPU at a higher clock...
 
that design is old.

Paul Thurrot said that Microsoft no longer was following that design.

but of course, that depends if you think he is credible or not.

Though I find it interesting that he states that supposedly Microsoft no longer is pursuing that design and the vgleaks design is supposedly from last February.

I wonder how all of this is intertwined if both paul thurrot and vgleaks are legitimate.
 
SlickShoesRUCrazy said:
ya, that pdf doc was from 2010, allegedly.
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Eh, I think you guys are getting caught up in the intricacies. Those slides should be read as an overview of what they plan to achieve, and also as a high level road map on the evolution of the xbox brand. Look at it that way and it begins to make alot of sense. Of course things change but have a read through the slides and you will notice striking similarities with the ways things happened in the past 2 yrs, the way things are right now, and the ways things are likely to pan out in the future given current rumors on the nextbox.
 
I just don't want to believe that Microsoft is launching a 120w console lol.

That is weak as hell. I mean the 360 was or almost was 200w at launch.

add some balls to that bitch lol.

for that reason, when Paul Thurrot said there are multiple xbox devices coming, I dream that what we have seen is a casual machine and that there is a enthusiast sku we have no seen yet lmao.
 
dragonelite said:
Cant tell this gives some advantages using special sort of engines.
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It doesn't even do that. Again, there may be explicit hardware support to help with certain kinds of megatexture/megamesh engines, but only as a way to cope with the segmented memory design. Orbis wouldn't need that kind of hardware assistance to begin with.
 
Hana-Bi said:
Man, that sounds too good to be true.
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It's what many people already said : Durango's GPU architecture is very optimized to offload data from the GPU chip. Now it's up to the devs to compile this advantage into good performance/IQ. It depends on the ease of use.
 
Hana-Bi said:
Man, that sounds too good to be true.
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Well it probably is.

ekim said:
It's what many people already said : Durango's GPU architecture is very optimized to offload data from the GPU chip. Now it's up to the devs to compile this advantage into good performance/IQ. It depends on the ease of use.
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Very optimized meaning what?, hardware decompression like all other consoles?. DMA units that other consoles will have?.
 
ekim said:
It's what many people already said : Durango's GPU architecture is very optimized to offload data from the GPU chip. Now it's up to the devs to compile this advantage into good performance/IQ. It depends on the ease of use.
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I think Much of what has been described is automatic and Data move engines, the tiling etc is in hardware. this really makes the hardware sound more like a tile based render, but i think it only has some of the benefits of an architecture like that.

Doesn't Carmacks 3D engine allow for a unlimited amount of texture overdraw? I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of his virtual texturing implementation.
 
ekim said:
It's what many people already said : Durango's GPU architecture is very optimized to offload data from the GPU chip. Now it's up to the devs to compile this advantage into good performance/IQ. It depends on the ease of use.
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It's absolutely hilarious that, judging from the rumours, Sony and Microsoft are role-reversing next gen with the PS4 being easy to develop for and Durango requiring more work.
 
KidBeta said:
Well it probably is.



Very optimized meaning what?, hardware decompression like all other consoles?. DMA units that other consoles will have?.
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did you read the spanish translated link posted above? That person describes things that are not on the other consoles
 
Biggzy said:
It's absolutely hilarious that, judging from the rumours, Sony and Microsoft are role-reversing next gen with the PS4 being easy to develop for and Durango requiring more work.
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There's no evidence that the new xbox is harder to work with. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. They have made some interesting changes to optimize bandwidth usage, but much of it sounds automatic.
 
liquidboy said:
A good technical analysis of the Durango leaked documents (from DME's to GPU) ... Its translated from Spanish BUT if you're technical you may be able to follow along!

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...013/02/08/durango-nos-hace-coger-el-delorean/
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With DME the puzzle is completed and this full hardware support to 100%, the management of virtual texturing does not have to be implemented within each graphic engine and therefore it is possible to use all the graphics engines and therefore on all games. The advantage of this is that the "FLOPS" which would be spent on memory management can be directed to other tasks allowing greater use of the GPU for computer graphics, but the use of not only DME is limited to Virtual Texturing, keep in mind that they can load any data in the ESRAM and that this charge them directly in the caches of the GPU. Do you think for example loading an Octree node for example? Use goes beyond Virtual Texturing.

But this can be applied in PS Orbis? Basically to implement virtual memory management it is not necessary that there are two levels of memory, taking the top sufficient storage capacity for the image (color, depth, and stencil) buffers and textures needed for the scene and there is a lower level. For PS Orbis the caches of the GPU do not have enough storage capacity for this and the GDDR5 is a single level of memory for all of the GPU. Obviously the ESRAM and all the mechanism implementation costs in the space that is a sacrifice in terms of computation capability. But the biggest advantage comes from the fact that this allows access to large amounts of memory per frame without having to rely on huge band widths from expensive high-wattage as the GDDR5 memory. The reason why Xbox 8/Durango uses GDDR5 is not by the fact that then the thing would be completely redundant, the GDDR5 exists on the GPUs of face to avoid the Texture Trashing by the use of a higher bandwidth, the use of virtual memory on the GPU and Virtual Texturing are another solution to the same problem that both come into conflict within a system.
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It sounds like the usage is automatic. Interesting. Hard to read given the autotranslation though.
 
oldergamer said:
There's no evidence that the new xbox is harder to work with.
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Huh? It has 2 separate user-managed memory pools instead of only 1. The extent of the implications of this difference are debatable, but it absolutely is an obvious indication that one platform requires more programmer effort than the other.

Then you can add using proprietary hardware to overlay data movement into and out of that memory block with computation on top of that.
 
oldergamer said:
I think Much of what has been described is automatic and Data move engines, the tiling etc is in hardware. this really makes the hardware sound more like a tile based render, but i think it only has some of the benefits of an architecture like that.

Doesn't Carmacks 3D engine allow for a unlimited amount of texture overdraw? I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of his virtual texturing implementation.
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combined with the rumours of MS pushing devs to use higher level abstraction layers and not code to the metal, suggests that these engines are automated in some way within the rendering pipeline. If you had to manually schedule them individually it'd be a nightmare.
 
Durante said:
Huh? It has 2 separate user-managed memory pools instead of only 1. The extent of the implications of this difference are debatable, but it absolutely is an obvious indication that one platform requires more programmer effort than the other.

Then you can add using proprietary hardware to overlay data movement into and out of that memory block with computation on top of that.
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The memory pools that allow a program to read and write to different areas of memory at the same time without stalls. IMO that's what game programmers always want to achieve but can't when they run into system stalls.

This is improvements over an architecture devs are already familiar with. With many of the new editions being automatic or hidden from the user. It's still x86 and a GCN graphic chip.
 
mrklaw said:
combined with the rumours of MS pushing devs to use higher level abstraction layers and not code to the metal, suggests that these engines are automated in some way within the rendering pipeline. If you had to manually schedule them individually it'd be a nightmare.
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IMO I don't believe those rumors. I think someone wanted that information to sound negative, but in reality it's the same thing all the consoles are doing and have done in the past.
 
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