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[The_Lump]

Its becoming quite clear that many WiiU games made launch with developers not fully understanding the hardware.



-Alex Ward, Criterion

Yep, and many tried to point that out as a possibility when trying to figure out why the first wave of cross-platform games weren't performing better than they did.

This latest news from Criterion isn't conclusive of anything and only time will tell if it's the norm or just an exception - but it sure is positive to hear them say they're using the high end pc textures/assets. (yes, they did say high end pc version in the video). Wonder what the resolution/fps will be?

 

[AzaK]

Yep, and many tried to point that out as a possibility when trying to figure out why the first wave of cross-platform games weren't performing better than they did.

This latest news from Criterion isn't conclusive of anything and only time will tell if it's the norm or just an exception - but it sure is positive to hear them say they're using the high end pc textures/assets. (yes, they did say high end pc version in the video). Wonder what the resolution/fps will be?

He didn't mention anything about resolution change so I'm assuming it's the same 1280x704 that's on the 360/PS3. Framerate I dunno. I saw some dips here and there but I'm assuming 30 like the others.

Hopefully DF will throw Wii U into the faceoff. The funny thing was, looking at the DF faceoff for 360/PS3 and PC I could hardly see a difference Some textures looked softer but that's all really.

 

[MDX]

I'm pretty sure Alex was referring to getting actual Wii U's in their homes to play, not the final devkits. Nintendo said at their investors meeting that full power Devkits were available mid 2012. I guess that doesn't mean Criterion got them then, but we know they were available at least.

We were not able to provide development kits that get out all the power of Wii U until mid of last year.

This sounds like it was the earliest the dev kits were available.
Doesn't mean that every developer got the kits at that time.
Their focus could have been first party developers.

edit to add:

final version of the hardware and development tools for the version have been made available and then a base for software development has been established. For Wii U, such a time finally came in the latter half of last year.

Here its even more clear this took place over a period of time and not something specific.

 

[walking fiend]

Dave, you clearly like hardwares that have good performance; you even like Vita that has no game more than 3DS that has a lot of games; of course Wii U isn't for you, why even bother discussing about it?

 

[ozfunghi]

According to Ward in the IGN/Gamespot/Gamesradar/Joystiq interview(s) the WiiU version sports:

-PC textures (from the high-end PC version)
-PC assets
-better lighting
-better draw distance
-better framerates

"The Wii U port pulls in the PC assets and immediately sports a much longer draw distance and better frame rate than its console cousins."

 

[AzaK]

According to Ward in the IGN/Gamespot/Gamesradar/Joystiq interview(s) the WiiU version sports:

-PC textures (from the high-end PC version)
-PC assets
-better lighting
-better draw distance
-better framerates

"The Wii U port pulls in the PC assets and immediately sports a much longer draw distance and better frame rate than its console cousins."

I didn't watch all the vids so I didn't hear that bit. Nice.

 

[USC-fan]

wow this thread went to shit quick...

cleanup on aisle 5

 

[krizzx]

According to Ward in the IGN/Gamespot/Gamesradar/Joystiq interview(s) the WiiU version sports:

-PC textures (from the high-end PC version)
-PC assets
-better lighting
-better draw distance
-better framerates

"The Wii U port pulls in the PC assets and immediately sports a much longer draw distance and better frame rate than its console cousins."

Its kind of funny to see how people are so fast to deny things like this without the most finite proof but are quick to exept any low hypothesis and negative dev opinion when it comes to Nintendo hardware.

I wonder what ways people are going to find to dismiss this.

Though, I've been wondering. How stands the Digital Foundry writeup where they proclaimed the Wii U's GPU was a "Radeon HD 4650/4670", that the unknown components didn't matter and the comment "we can now, categorically, finally rule out any next-gen pretensions for the Wii U". Is this still considered a proper, accurate analysis?

I'm not sure on where we are standing with the analysis right now. Its seems that there are more questions now than there were at the beginning.

 

[ozfunghi]

I didn't watch all the vids so I didn't hear that bit. Nice.

It's from the Joystiq article i believe. Edit: it might actually be a comment of the journalist, not from Ward himself.

wow this thread went to shit quick...
cleanup on aisle 5

notsureifserious.gif

Luckily for us, your back to raise the bar.

 

[plank]

wow this thread went to shit quick...

cleanup on aisle 5

The only way its seem we could judge the WiiU hardware is through performance. the NFS issue seems adequate.

 

[AniHawk]

i swear to god i thought i'd clicked on the nfs thread. i didn't figure out that i hadn't until i saw the post count.

 

[plagiarize]

I didn't watch all the vids so I didn't hear that bit. Nice.

I'm sure that just means it holds 30 fps more often than the console versions do.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

i swear to god i thought i'd clicked on the nfs thread. i didn't figure out that i hadn't until i saw the post count.

Yeah, I've got a good buzz going too.

 

[ambientmystic]

Though, I've been wondering. How stands the Digital Foundry writeup where they proclaimed the Wii U's GPU was a "Radeon HD 4650/4670", that the unknown components didn't matter and the comment "we can now, categorically, finally rule out any next-gen pretensions for the Wii U". Is this still considered a proper, accurate analysis?

It'd be great if we can definitely and 100% say it was a 320 SPU sporting Radeon 4650/4670 under the hood. At least then we can put all of this power speculation to rest. And I say this as someone who owns a still functioning 2008/2009 era laptop that is powered by that card and still run games at better than console settings.

 

[lostinblue]

Though, I've been wondering. How stands the Digital Foundry writeup where they proclaimed the Wii U's GPU was a "Radeon HD 4650/4670", that the unknown components didn't matter and the comment "we can now, categorically, finally rule out any next-gen pretensions for the Wii U". Is this still considered a proper, accurate analysis?

It was never accurate.

It was a quickly poorly written vindicative article by some dude, the "I told you so!" kind; without proper conclusions or analysis, it also didn't bother to stress that the "theory" at place like any other at that point was just that (hence DF dude saying they're asking for people to look into it now). It also failed to give and source proper credit to whom it's due and it felt like it didn't have a ending conclusion of any sort, ended flat.

Whoever did it (besides being pretty incompetent, which is a shame because I usually enjoy unbiased DF articles) just did it to reiterate his point of view in spite of the image and probably to keep them on top of the situation (I mean, stating it's like a stock card that looks nothing like it on the die? LOL, dude didn't know what to make of it). And clicks are money.

 

[Nostremitus]

The only way its seem we could judge the WiiU hardware is through performance. the NFS issue seems adequate.

Then that should go to the technical discussion thread or the appreciation thread. This one's sole purpose is to discuss the die shot. Not overall comparative evaluations of game graphics. While these subjects are loosely related (by this I mean they both relate to the Wii U's capabilities but hardware =/= software), this isn't the thread for it. I know some of you are excited about the news and others are excited about bursting bubbles but it's derailing the thread. It has nothing at all to do with an analysis of the die shot.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

have you tech guys read this DF?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes

you should

 

[MDX]

have you tech guys read this DF?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes

you should

Questions about the theoretical bottlenecks of the Wii U hardware - the RAM set-up, the bandwidth - are left unanswered. Partly because we're straying into NDA territory and partly because we get the distinct impression that, for Criterion at least, it wasn't an issue.

"Tools and software were the biggest challenges by a long way... the fallout of that has always been the biggest challenge here," Idries reaffirms. "[Wii U] is a good piece of hardware, it punches above its weight. For the power consumption it delivers in terms of raw wattage it's pretty incredible. Getting to that though, actually being able to use the tools from Nintendo to leverage that, was easily the hardest part."

But hang on a second. This does somewhat dispute the established narrative suggested by more than one developer of a console using out-dated CPU technology derived from the Wii, which in turn was an overclocked, tweaked version of the GameCube. Ten minutes into our chat and Idries hasn't once mentioned the infamous lack of Wii U CPU horsepower. Wasn't this an issue for developing Most Wanted on the new Nintendo console? He pauses for a short moment while framing his answer.

"When they first looked at the specs on paper a lot of developers said, 'Well, you know this is a bit lightweight' and they walked away. I think a lot of people have been premature about it in a lot of ways because while it is a lower clock-speed, it punches above its weight in a lot of other areas," he explains.

So bandwidth not a problem, CPU not a problem, GPU is pretty impressive.
What more do you want for $299 and a tablet controller?

Back to the CPU:

It's a different kind of chip and it's not fair to look at its clock-speed and other consoles' clock-speed and compare them as numbers that are relevant. It's not a relevant comparison to make when you have processors that are so divergent. It's apples and oranges."

 

[ozfunghi]

So bandwidth not a problem, CPU not a problem, GPU is pretty impressive.
What more do you want for $299 and a tablet controller?

Devs to have tools and documentation, lol

EDIT: from the DF interview, it seems only textures were high-end PC, not the models etc; they came from the PS360 version.

we are using PS3/360 geometry. It's just the textures we upgraded.

 

[Log4Girlz]

have you tech guys read this DF?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes

you should

Its a great article. Thank you for the link.

 

[MDX]

Devs to have tools and documentation, lol

EDIT: from the DF interview, it seems only textures were high-end PC, not the models etc; they came from the PS360 version.

Yeah, I can see how rumor that Retro (or was that later confirmed by Iwata?) not wanting to show their game during E3 was true because they probably just got the goods and thought... wait a minute.


The WiiU developer creed:

I think people should either go all-in or not bother

 

[Xun]

have you tech guys read this DF?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes

you should

Great read!

Sounds like the Wii U is a pretty good piece of kit.

 

[Herb Alpert]

have you tech guys read this DF?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes

you should

Thanks. A positive point of view about wii U is good to read.

 

[tkscz]

So bandwidth not a problem, CPU not a problem, GPU is pretty impressive.
What more do you want for $299 and a tablet controller?

Back to the CPU:

So we are all aware that this WILL be ignored by most people and they WILL bring up the Tekken, Dynasty Warriors etc etc argument right?

Also, Ironic this is coming from DF. These are the guys who out right suggested that the Unknown parts of the GPU are throw away and based it on a GPU that it obviously isn't based on.

 

[Midou]

I do find the whole concept of finding out the truth to be quite an interesting pursuit. Though I just want to see how games actually look.

 

[Smoothice65]

The difference with Wii U was that when we first started out, getting the graphics and GPU to run at an acceptable frame-rate was a real struggle. The hardware was always there, it was always capable. Nintendo gave us a lot of support - support which helps people who are doing cross-platform development actually get the GPU running to the kind of rate we've got it at now. We benefited by not quite being there for launch - we got a lot of that support that wasn't there at day one... the tools, everything."

This bothers me a little so Third-party devss hadn't gotten the complete tools and support on time to get the graphics and GPU to run at an acceptable frame-rate, why ?? Or was this purely because of the launch deadline ?

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Devs to have tools and documentation, lol

EDIT: from the DF interview, it seems only textures were high-end PC, not the models etc; they came from the PS360 version.

Do they use higher polygon models in the PC version over the consoles? I thought most games simply improved the textures and maybe the lighting/draw distance on PC?

 

[tkscz]

Do they use higher polygon models in the PC version over the consoles? I thought most games simply improved the textures and maybe the lighting/draw distance on PC?

Normally no. PC versions of console games don't have higher poly-counts. I'm not saying it's the same with this game, but that's usually what it is.

 

[Antagon]

This bothers me a little so third-party devss hadn't gotten the complete tools and support on time to optimize the framerate problems, why ?? Or is this purely because of the launch deadline ?

I'd expect tools to keep being improved for years. It should be an ongoing project.

 

[ColdBlooder]

PS3 tools were incedibly... "poor" at the start of the gen too. And its pretty apparent Nintendo is lacking behind with tools/SDK. I hope they will release final documentation and tools soon!

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

PS3 tools were incedibly... "poor" at the start of the gen too. And its pretty apparent Nintendo is lacking behind with tools/SDK. I hope they will release final documentation and tools soon!

The Cell and Nvidia GPU were very well documented and had very open lines of support and communication with engineers, however.

That's partially why I'm so surprised all hardware manufacturers went with AMD. Nvidia was hands on with Splinter Cell's development on Xbox, and was very involved with a few other devs in the Xbox's lifetime (And I remember hearing something with Criterion working with NVidia during the PS3's life cycle but I havent read up much on nVidia's activities in PS3 dev support)

On the flip side, I havent seen much coming from AMD in dev contact, outside of a few PC devs with driver issues.

 

[pestul]

The Cell and Nvidia GPU were very well documented and had very open lines of support and communication with engineers, however.

That's partially why I'm so surprised all hardware manufacturers went with AMD. Nvidia was hands on with Splinter Cell's development on Xbox, and was very involved with a few other devs in the Xbox's lifetime (And I remember hearing something with Criterion working with NVidia during the PS3's life cycle but I havent read up much on nVidia's activities in PS3 dev support)

On the flip side, I havent seen much coming from AMD in dev contact, outside of a few PC devs with driver issues.

I have a feeling with the delay of the 'real' 8xxx series from AMD, they are actually planning on helping out on the console front for games development.

 

[Earendil]

So we are all aware that this WILL be ignored by most people and they WILL bring up the Tekken, Dynasty Warriors etc etc argument right?

Also, Ironic this is coming from DF. These are the guys who out right suggested that the Unknown parts of the GPU are throw away and based it on a GPU that it obviously isn't based on.

That's why I ignore them. You'd have better luck convincing a hammer that it's a table saw than getting these guys to admit they have been wrong.

 

[MDX]

That's why I ignore them. You'd have better luck convincing a hammer that it's a table saw than getting these guys to admit they have been wrong.

I look forward to see what the folks on B3D have to say.

 

[prag16]

Already happening on beyond3d... Those guys have their own perception and won't budge. Not matter what they see or is quoted from a developer.

Yeah, it's as if some of those guys are more tech savvy alts of Van Owen, Abominable Snowman and USC-fan (though I think USC fan IS already on beyond3d) as in they seem to have a LOT inexplicably invested in the Wii U being "bad" or "weak" or "failing".

 

[darkness_s]

... they seem to have a LOT inexplicably invested in the Wii U being "bad" or "weak" or "failing".

Maybe there's a bookie somewhere taking bets on this?

 

[DrWong]

So, here it's like in the "Technical Wii U thread"? Back to the pathological console warriorz posting style?

Unsuscribing...

 

[Earendil]

Yeah, it's as if some of those guys are more tech savvy alts of Van Owen, Abominable Snowman and USC-fan (though I think USC fan IS already on beyond3d) as in they seem to have a LOT inexplicably invested in the Wii U being "bad" or "weak" or "failing".

USC is KBSmoker. I don't know who some of the others are.

So, here it's like in the "Technical Wii U thread"? Back to the pathological console warriorz posting style?

Unsuscribing...

I'd like very much to get back to discussing the die shot. I'm still confused as to what block V is. It's a strange looking block with a lot of SRAM. Does the layout of the block mean anything? Or is it arbitrary? It's odd because the two SRAM sections are mirrors of each other, I wonder if that means anything. What type of unit could require two identical configs of SRAM?

EDIT: As far as I can tell, it's the only block with mirrored SRAM blocks, aside from the SIMDs.

So when we finally get die shots of the CPU, I expect, like with the GPU, people will be scratching their heads. I mean, what from IBM would you be able to compare it to?

Do we have die shots of the 750 or Broadway? Those are the closest chips you could compare it to.

 

[MDX]

It's a different kind of chip and it's not fair to look at its clock-speed and other consoles' clock-speed and compare them as numbers that are relevant. It's not a relevant comparison to make when you have processors that are so divergent. It's apples and oranges."

So when we finally get die shots of the CPU, I expect, like with the GPU, people will be scratching their heads. I mean, what from IBM would you be able to compare it to?

 

[bgassassin]

I do wonder at times if Nintendo created a DX11-capable GPU, but are (still) utilizing a DX10-level API.

The Cell and Nvidia GPU were very well documented and had very open lines of support and communication with engineers, however.

They still had deficiencies. ERP, a mod on B3D and Sony dev (from what I understand), mentioned this in response to a question I asked last month.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1695338&postcount=19011

Not really when people talk about poor development tools, it's mostly about slow (or in some cases buggy) compilers and linkers and difficult to use or inadequate debuggers.
At the start of the PS3's life MS were also shipping robust profiling tools and Sony really wasn't.

Now though that gap has all but closed, the Sony tools for Vita are embedded in VS, and generally the gold linker used on Sony's existing offerings is faster than the MS equivalent. That speed difference has led a number of people to switch their development platform of choice.

 

[prag16]

So when we finally get die shots of the CPU, I expect, like with the GPU, people will be scratching their heads. I mean, what from IBM would you be able to compare it to?

Yeah, I wonder if those comments indicate it's more than just 3x overclocked gekko with added cache, OR if they ALREADY consider that "a different kind of chip"

 

[Fourth Storm]

So when we finally get die shots of the CPU, I expect, like with the GPU, people will be scratching their heads. I mean, what from IBM would you be able to compare it to?

You're not going to have to wait too much longer.

 

[prag16]

You're not going to have to wait too much longer.

 

[krizzx]

That's why I ignore them. You'd have better luck convincing a hammer that it's a table saw than getting these guys to admit they have been wrong.

VERY well put. The same with Digital Foundry apparently. I'm really wondering why nobody calls them out for their acute bias.

We should make a thread for analyzing individual games on the Wii U. By figuring out which techniques it can do in games, we should be able to more easily determine what the components are.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

USC is KBSmoker. I don't know who some of the others are.

Why is she (prag) still mentioning me? I don't post on B3d often and never in that thread. And neither do I bag on the WU incessantly, I just don't have a never ending fountain of optimism fueled by dreams like she does.

They still had deficiencies. ERP, a mod on B3D and Sony dev (from what I understand), mentioned this in response to a question I asked last month.

Oh I don't disagree. I was discussing something else.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

...And neither do I bag on the WU incessantly...

I don't troll your posts (even though this kinda seems like it - not trying to troll here) and I'm not going to be able to back this up with links or anything like that. Just know that while I have no qualms with you at all, I am not surprised to see a seemingly critical/negative quote from you when the discussion is the Wii U. I'm not asking you to change anything and I'm definitely not saying that every single thing you post in regards to the Wii U is negative. I've just seen it often enough. That's all.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I don't troll your posts (even though this kinda seems like it - not trying) and I'm not going to be able to back this up with links or anything like that. Just know that while I have no qualms with you at all, I am not surprised to see a seemingly critical/negative quote from you when the discussion is the Wii U. I'm not asking you to change anything and I'm definitely not saying that every single thing you post in regards to the Wii U is negative. I've just seen it often enough. That's all.

I understand. I was called worse things when I was talking about the wattage of the WU/being under 600GFLOP in a previous thread. However I think the nature of these threads tend to turn into "If someone says anything below my highest expectations, burn them at the stake" and people have become more and more antagonistic, from both sides, as expectations lower.

 

[prag16]

Why is she (prag) still mentioning me? I don't post on B3d often and never in that thread. And neither do I bag on the WU incessantly, I just don't have a never ending fountain of optimism fueled by dreams like she does.



Oh I don't disagree. I was discussing something else.

If you actually paid attention, you won't find a never ending fountain of optimism from me. I guess anyone who doesn't bag on the Wii U incessantly (which you DO do) you characterize as having an endless fountain of optimism.


On topic (or moreso at least) it's good to hear Nintendo is getting their shit together (even if a bit late) in terms of support and documentation. This may help explain some of the launch port inadequacies, and this bodes well for future games (or is that notion out-of-bounds due to excessive optimism).

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I understand. I was called worse things when I was talking about the wattage of the WU/being under 600GFLOP in a previous thread. However I think the nature of these threads tend to turn into "If someone says anything below my highest expectations, burn them at the stake" and people have become more and more antagonistic, from both sides, as expectations lower.

The Criterion article from either Eurogamer or DF does a decent job of showing that there is light for those hoping for a "powerful" Wii U, as long as your expectations remain in check. Arguably, the same could be said for all the next gen systems. Let's face it we all would really love an OMGWTFBBQAWESOMENESS console that's hands-down the best choice to make for everything. The reality is that isn't going to happen at an across-the-board level. I'm not saying this right, but it's almost like we're looking for the winner of a Ms. Universe contest or something. Just because one or another is a finalist, it doesn't mean all the others are ugly. They're just different. I like Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Ouya and Apple (yeah, I went there) for different reasons. I'm a bit of a tech junkie, so I guess this isn't surprising.

 

[Earendil]

The Criterion article from either Eurogamer or DF does a decent job of showing that there is light for those hoping for a "powerful" Wii U, as long as your expectations remain in check. Arguably, the same could be said for all the next gen systems. Let's face it we all would really love an OMGWTFBBQAWESOMENESS console that's hands-down the best choice to make for everything. The reality is that isn't going to happen at an across-the-board level. I'm not saying this right, but it's almost like we're looking for the winner of a Ms. Universe contest or something. Just because one or another is a finalist, it doesn't mean all the others are ugly. They're just different. I like Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Ouya and Apple (yeah, I went there) for different reasons. I'm a bit of a tech junkie, so I guess this isn't surprising.

Well said...