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[GuitarAtomik]

Sure.

Obviously, a move like this wouldn't be done without some research.

It all comes down to used games. I think an always online policy will be hand-in-hand with a lock out of used games. Perhaps they've looked at the percentage of people without internet access and figured out that the amount of money they'd save by locking them out altogether with the requirement of always online/lock out of used games surpasses the amount of money they'd save by having them all able to own the system AND play used games.

Remember--MS gets a cut of every game sold. Used games takes that away. And the used game market in this country is HUGE.

You're starting to cut out large portions of countries though on TOP of the US market. I really don't think the loss in potential global market is worth it to cut off used sales. You're not only talking about cutting off potential growth but actual contraction on the markets you already have a foothold in.

 

[Plinko]

Question, I see the image posted here and those in the VGLeaks article are for Visual Studio 2012. Is this the same source that leaked the Durango specs to VGLeaks that appeared to be dated from early 2012? If so, would some of this info change in over a years time? Not trying to down play anything just feels like its a bit of dated information to be hanging hats on this is how its gonna be.

It's possible--especially depending on Sony. Since Sony clearly stated that their system won't require always online, it's possible MS could have changed plans.

 

[Klocker]

Sure.

Obviously, a move like this wouldn't be done without some research.

It all comes down to used games. I think an always online policy will be hand-in-hand with a lock out of used games. Perhaps they've looked at the percentage of people without internet access and figured out that the amount of money they'd save by locking them out altogether with the requirement of always online/lock out of used games surpasses the amount of money they'd save by having them all able to own the system AND play used games.

Remember--MS gets a cut of every game sold. Used games takes that away. And the used game market in this country is HUGE.

Do not paint MS (or Sony) as the bad guy looking to make a cut of our precious used market. It is the publishers who are really losing out, the cost of development is going to continue to increase as more resources are required for the growing size and assets. Developers are already being squeezed out of the market and are killing themselves to turn a profit in many cases.

If in my business, my customers were trading my products to their neighbors instead of their neighbors buying new ones when needed, I would go out of business. It is not sustainable in some industries.

The publishers are losing millions in EARNED revenue for the intellectual property. It is the future as the technology becomes available for them to protect that interest and to earn income instead of Gamestop.

This coming from a Gamestop trade-in whore.

 

[Shahed]

I don't see how installing to the HDD is a negative thing? I do it for all my 360 games. I wish the PS3 had the option and I hope PS4 will let you.

Faster load times are better no?

 

[Plinko]

You're starting to cut out large portions of countries though on TOP of the US market. I really don't think the loss in potential global market is worth it to cut off used sales. You're not only talking about cutting off potential growth but actual contraction on the markets you already have a foothold in.

True. I don't like the idea of it, personally. But the United States isn't exactly the leader in broadband penetration. There are several European countries ahead of us.

 

[YodaGoneMad]

In cases like this, if people waited for the announcement it would be too late. Dosen't it make sense to loudly state that online requirements are not cool before the point of no return? Even if it all works out fine (and I really think it will, MS is not that hubristic, are they?) I don't see how voicing an opinion about this rumor is wrong. Some people are taking things too far, but this is the internet, so that is always going to happen.

And dragging Edge's name through the mud based purely on your conjecture is not cool. They published their rumor in February. They must have been psychics to capitalize on the SimCity before it happened.

Nothing wrong with voicing the opinion. I feel like edge has done a pretty scummy thing claiming something that is blatantly false, but perhaps their "trusted source" truly believes it to be true. The anti-DRM hype has been around for years, there is no denying making the first sentence of your article something that inflammatory is guaranteed to generate views.

 

[Tomcat]

who are these gaf insiders and what have they predicted that it was actually true. ps4 having 8gb for example no one show that coming here.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I am still keeping my fingers cross that they change course on the no used/whatever shit. If they pull it, I simply won't get an Xbox and will move to PS4 as my primary device (assuming they don't do the same.....).

If it's done on next Xbox, it will be done on PS4.

This is primarily publisher driven, we shouldn't forget that and Sony have made it clear they won't stop third parties from doing whatever the hell they want.

 

[Plinko]

Do not paint MS (or Sony) as the bad guy looking to make a cut of our precious used market. It is the publishers who are really losing out, the cost of development is going to continue to increase as more resources are required for the growing size and assets. Developers are already being squeezed out of the market and are killing themselves to turn a profit in many cases.

If in my business, my customers were trading my products to their neighbors instead of their neighbors buying new ones when needed, I would go out of business. It is not sustainable in some industries.

The publishers are losing millions in EARNED revenue for the intellectual property. It is the future as the technology becomes available for them to protect that interest and to earn income instead of Gamestop.

This coming from a Gamestop trade-in whore.

I'm not trying to paint either as 'the bad guy.' Clearly, the move would be a result of pressure from publishers. This (along with other obvious reasons) could also be a reason we're not seeing a ton of third-party work on Wii U right now.

It has been rumored for a while that publishers were angry with the used game market. Sony and MS would be giving in to demands, not making the decision by themselves.

 

[kaching]

In cases like this, if people waited for the announcement it would be too late. Dosen't it make sense to loudly state that online requirements are not cool before the point of no return? Even if it all works out fine (and I really think it will, MS is not that hubristic, are they?) I don't see how voicing an opinion about this rumor is wrong. Some people are taking things too far, but this is the internet, so that is always going to happen.

Wanted to write something like this. But you nailed it.

There's really no need to defend MS' honor on this. They're obviously happy to take the blows anyway (whatever that may amount to), since they still prefer not to announce anything concrete yet. If the speculation were having a damaging impact on relations with pubs or such, I'm sure they'd set the record straight, if there's a need to do so.

 

[Uno Venova]

who are these gaf insiders and what have they predicted that it was actually true. ps4 having 8gb for example no one show that coming here.

I think GopherD and Verendus said 8gb.

 

[JHall]

I don't see how installing to the HDD is a negative thing? I do it for all my 360 games. I wish the PS3 had the option and I hope PS4 will let you.

Faster load times are better no?

It's just another thing for people to complain about. I install all my games on my HDD.

 

[Reiko]

who are these gaf insiders and what have they predicted that it was actually true. ps4 having 8gb for example no one show that coming here.

Even VGleaks themselves. lol

 

[Xamdou]

It's just another thing for people to complain about. I install all my games on my HDD.

Same here, mandatory installs is the future and MS is making it standard.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Do not paint MS (or Sony) as the bad guy looking to make a cut of our precious used market. It is the publishers who are really losing out, the cost of development is going to continue to increase as more resources are required for the growing size and assets. Developers are already being squeezed out of the market and are killing themselves to turn a profit in many cases.

If in my business, my customers were trading my products to their neighbors instead of their neighbors buying new ones when needed, I would go out of business. It is not sustainable in some industries.

The publishers are losing millions in EARNED revenue for the intellectual property. It is the future as the technology becomes available for them to protect that interest and to earn income instead of Gamestop.

This coming from a Gamestop trade-in whore.

Indeed, the publisher is oft the forgotten party/the ones ultimately making these demands.

 

[YodaGoneMad]

Wanted to write something like this. But you nailed it.

There's really no need to defend MS' honor on this. They're obviously happy to take the blows anyway (whatever that may amount to), since they still prefer not to announce anything concrete yet. If the speculation were having a damaging impact on relations with pubs or such, I'm sure they'd set the record straight, if there's a need to do so.

If anything it makes publishers excited, no used games has been their wet dream for a decade. I am also not trying to defend any honor, just putting out a dissenting view for people to consider. The page I was reading made it sound like it was already accepted as genuine fact that the console required an internet connection. It should not be treated as anything more than an unlikely rumor at this point.

 

[Xenon]

who are these gaf insiders and what have they predicted that it was actually true. ps4 having 8gb for example no one show that coming here.

The same could be said of Edge and it's insiders. What did they actually predict that wasn't from the VGLeaks article? I know it was not the 8GB of ram in the PS4 because that blindsided everyone.

 

[Klocker]

I'm not trying to paint either as 'the bad guy.' Clearly, the move would be a result of pressure from publishers. This (along with other obvious reasons) could also be a reason we're not seeing a ton of third-party work on Wii U right now.

It has been rumored for a while that publishers were angry with the used game market. Sony and MS would be giving in to demands, not making the decision by themselves.

perhaps I should have said "let's not" instead of "don't you".

And yes I will believe the Edge article when it's proven true by MS and again based on my assessment of the used market would not be all too surprised if true.

I am quite certain however, if MS does go that route, they have done their homework to protect and grow their brand and that however they implement it includes a high probability of success.

Spoiler

no matter how many pages of outrage GAF produces

 

[YodaGoneMad]

Same here, mandatory installs is the future and MS is making it standard.

If they really get the streaming install working on every game there is literally no down side. Faster load times, better games thanks to faster data streaming, and even if you just got home with a game on a disc there is no need to wait for an install.

 

[Shahed]

It's just another thing for people to complain about. I install all my games on my HDD.

I mean if you're gonna complain, at least complain about things that matter. I have my reservations abiut the always online/no used games thing. But I'll withhold judgement until it's confirmed. But installing to HDD? That's a plus if anything

Even VGleaks themselves. lol

To be fair didn't Edge call that one?

 

[seventynine]

About 'no used games'. How are they going to do the cross game invite feature if all games have to be installed first, but after installing the data the disc is no longer needed? Unlike the 360 where you must have the disc in the console in order to play the game?

Maybe this was already discussed and I've missed it?

 

[Uno Venova]

The same could be said of Edge and it's insiders. What did they actually predict that wasn't from the VGLeaks article? I know it was not the 8GB of ram in the PS4 because that blindsided everyone.

EDGE predicted 8gb too. There's a reason 90% of people here take a lot of stock in what they say.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Nothing wrong with voicing the opinion. I feel like edge has done a pretty scummy thing claiming something that is blatantly false, but perhaps their "trusted source" truly believes it to be true. The anti-DRM hype has been around for years, there is no denying making the first sentence of your article something that inflammatory is guaranteed to generate views.

I am not sure what is wrong with their first line, nothing wrong with not burying the lede.

Blatantly false according to...?

The claim in question is the "no used games" part. And I haven't seen anything that really says that that is blatantly false. This batch of rumors corroborates with their reporting. You have been constantly vacillating between these absolute statements that allude authority and claims that you know nothing. So which is it?

 

[phosphor112]

That's largely irrelevant. My point is the context of "always" doesn't have to mean "mandatory".

No, it's not irrelevant. They aren't technically competent to even create a system that meets current standards.

They thought their Wii flashing blue when you had a message was revolutionary.

 

[FuturusX]

It's my feeling, just a feeling, that you'll need an online connection to validate initial installs.

Game discs will ship with with a code that you'll have to tie to the machine against Xbox LIVE servers. Subsequent play will not need to be online, but to actually install the game and use it, a one time online validation is required.

That could be the extent of the "required online" to play games.

 

[Reiko]

I mean if you're gonna complain, at least complain about things that matter. I have my reservations abiut the always online/no used games thing. But I'll withhold judgement until it's confirmed. But installing to HDD? That's a plus if anything



To be fair didn't Edge call that one?

Edge also said PS4 will have slightly better specs than Durango. Which going by current spec rumors, that is highly unlikely.

PS4 specs are bigger than slightly.

 

[Bgamer90]

Sure.

Obviously, a move like this wouldn't be done without some research.

It all comes down to used games. I think an always online policy will be hand-in-hand with a lock out of used games. Perhaps they've looked at the percentage of people without internet access and figured out that the amount of money they'd save by locking them out altogether with the requirement of always online/lock out of used games surpasses the amount of money they'd save by having them all able to own the system AND play used games.

Remember--MS gets a cut of every game sold. Used games takes that away. And the used game market in this country is HUGE.

The number of people without broadband in the US are more than the number of Xbox 360 consoles sold in the country.

Making an online only console just for the purpose of restricting used games makes no sense. There are still tons of people without broadband connections that would be willing to pay full price for a new game. Why would you block them out? That's easy money. Why punish these people via having them not be able to play games at all?

A smarter idea in my opinion would be tying the ability to play used games in with XBL -- having people pay a yearly fee to be able to play used games with a possible limit on the number of used games they can play per year.

Therefore, you can still have money coming from various people instead of completely blocking out a group of people to not be able to give you money for content on your system, while at the same time still having more used game restrictions (with money coming from those restrictions in various ways).

 

[Bojanglez]

If they really get the streaming install working on every game there is literally no down side. Faster load times, better games thanks to faster data streaming, and even if you just got home with a game on a disc there is no need to wait for an install.

Unless it requires a day 1 patch and it can't be played without it?

 

[Plinko]

It's my feeling, just a feeling, that you'll need an online connection to validate initial installs.

Game discs will ship with with a code that you'll have to tie to the machine against Xbox LIVE servers. Subsequent play will not need to be online, but to actually install the game and use it, a one time online validation is required.

That could be the extent of the "required online" to play games.

This is my feeling, as it will eliminate the used game market.

 

[Shahed]

Edge also said PS4 will have slightly better specs than Durango. Which going by current spec rumors, that is highly unlikely.

PS4 specs are bigger than slightly.

Well maybe it depends on the context they use the word slightly. What if they are going by what the difference the end user will experience? In that regard (assuming rumoured specs) PS4 multiplat games will perform better, but to the majority of people it will only be slightly more so. Then their statement fits. Not that I'm saying that's what they mean or that I've already made my mind on anything next gen. I'm just coming up with a hypothetical reason as to why their words would make sense

And I was really only referring to the 8GB

 

[Reiko]

This is my feeling, as it will eliminate the used game market.

So yeah. That also means that we will be stuck with a potentially garbage game with no way to resell it.

 

[Xamdou]

So yeah. That also means that we will be stuck with a potentially garbage game with no way to resell it.

Read reviews, play the demo or go here and read initial gaf game impressions prior to purchasing the game.

 

[Klocker]

It's my feeling, just a feeling, that you'll need an online connection to validate initial installs.

Game discs will ship with with a code that you'll have to tie to the machine against Xbox LIVE servers. Subsequent play will not need to be online, but to actually install the game and use it, a one time online validation is required.

That could be the extent of the "required online" to play games.

you're doing it wrong, where's your tin foil hat, pitchfork and outrage!

Spoiler

your idea makes too much sense and of course engineers at MS are too stupid to think like that

 

[Kyoufu]

So yeah. That also means that we will be stuck with a potentially garbage game with no way to resell it.

Play the demo or watch gameplay videos on YouTube. That's what I've done for years.

 

[Dr.Acula]

The complaint about having to install is silly to me. I'm on a PC and I haven't run a game off a CD since The 7th Guest. Mainly that was because the game was bigger than my HDD.

Running off disc is worse in every possible way. I remember when we had cartridges and (old man mode activate!) and people complained about discs.

"You're telling me my savegames aren't going to be on the cartridge?! What happens if my memory card is full? What if the CD scratches!?"

So... Always online, always "on" always Kinect.

How long until hackers are watching me sleep?

Is Durango final? Are we sure MS aren't gonna go with XBOX720?

 

[Xenon]

EDGE predicted 8gb too. There's a reason 90% of people here take a lot of stock in what they say.

I know people have said they predicted that but I don't remember ever reading anything about that until after the announcement was made. Was it just speculation or did they have people backing it up? Again the announcement was such a surprise I find it hard to believe that there was a rumor from a credible source. Can you post the link to where they predicted this?

 

[Reiko]

Read reviews, play the demo or go here and read initial gaf game impressions prior to purchasing the game.

Dear God...

Consumers would be taking reviews and Metacritc like the holy grail.

It would also make consumers less likely to take risks on buying a shit product to see what the fuss is all about.

 

[Shahed]

Read reviews, play the demo or go here and read initial gaf game impressions prior to purchasing the game.

But then you lose the impluse buy market. I've bought games randomly because they looked interesting. Some I've liked. Other's turned out trash and I quickly sold them. If I couldn't do that anymore I'd buy less games.

And that's ignoring the fact I sell most old games in order to fund new games. If I lose that I'd just buy less games in general or wait till they become cheaper

 

[Crimson_Gold]

I know people have said they predicted that but I don't remember ever reading anything about that until after the announcement was made. Was it just speculation or did they have people backing it up? Again the announcement was such a surprise I find it hard to believe that their was a rumor from a credible source. Can you post the link to where they predicted this?

I believe EDGE said that Sony was going to match the ram in the nextbox. Many different interpretations were made of that statement

 

[YodaGoneMad]

I am not sure what is wrong with their first line, nothing wrong with not burying the lede.

Blatantly false according to...?

The claim in question is the "no used games" part. And I haven't seen anything that really says that that is blatantly false. This batch of rumors corroborates with their reporting. You have been constantly vacillating between these absolute statements that allude authority and claims that you know nothing. So which is it?

It sounded like earlier if I wanted to speak with authority I needed to claim and prove some authority so I softened my tone. I am not going to prove anything, it will be obvious after the unveil what was true and what was false.

 

[Uno Venova]

I know people have said they predicted that but I don't remember ever reading anything about that until after the announcement was made. Was it just speculation or did they have people backing it up? Again the announcement was such a surprise I find it hard to believe that their was a rumor from a credible source. Can you post the link to where they predicted this?

http://www.edge-online.com/news/playstation-4-revealed/2/

even though some insiders on gaf told us the same thing about 8gb, most called it ridiculous and said no chance. Then everyone was floored at the ps meeting.

But then you lose the impluse buy market. I've bought games randomly because they looked interesting. Some I've liked. Other's turned out trash and I quickly sold them. If I couldn't do that anymore I'd buy less games.

And that's ignoring the fact I sell most old games in order to fund new games. If I lose that I'd just buy less games in general or wait till they become cheaper

Same way I operate.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

It is so weird that MS is using Blu-Ray.

VC-1, the codec used in Blu-Ray, was developed by Microsoft. Microsoft using Blu-Ray isn't that big of deal. Here's a list of some of the patent holders:

CyberLink Corporation
Dell Inc.
Hewlett-Packard Company
Hitachi Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
Warner Home Video Inc.

The largest patent owner is Panasonic, not Sony. No single company owns Blu-Ray

 

[Reiko]

But then you lose the impluse buy market. I've bought games randomly because they looked interesting. Some I've liked. Other's turned out trash and I quickly sold them. If I couldn't do that anymore I'd buy less games.

And that's ignoring the fact I sell most old games in order to fund new games. If I lose that I'd just buy less games in general or wait till they become cheaper

Right.

To those I've talked to, they would be buying less games because of it.

A lot of impulse buyers make up the casual market.

Punishing impulse buyers doesn't really factor in to MS going for the casuals.

 

[Shahed]

VC-1, the codec used in Blu-Ray, was developed by Microsoft. Microsoft using Blu-Ray isn't that big of deal. Here's a list of some of the patent holders:

CyberLink Corporation
Dell Inc.
Hewlett-Packard Company
Hitachi Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
Warner Home Video Inc.

The largest patent owner is Panasonic, not Sony. No single company owns Blu-Ray

I believe the largest patent holder is Panasonic, but the largest producer is Sony, so in a way they might make more money of it. Not that it would deter Microsoft since it's just business. See Sony hardware running Windows

Don't quote me on that though since I read it somewhere and I don't have a link.

 

[FuturusX]

So yeah. That also means that we will be stuck with a potentially garbage game with no way to resell it.

Used game codes, directly from MS. You pop in a used game enter the code on the disc and get a notification that the game code has already been used. "Would you like to purchase an additional play license" (used games nomenclature is not desirable)

This could allow users to sell a game freely with the buyer aware they they'll need to purchase an additional code to actually play it. $5 - $8 perhaps.

The used market would have to adjust to consume that cost naturally, but it would give publishers and platform holders what they have sought for so long. A cut of the used revenue stream.

Of course the model could be used to deny the re-sale completely. The disc being the transport medium only. Meaning that you can never get to buy a "used code". A code is sold at current value regardless. That's an aggressive model. One that you might ease into the market after providing a bridge to ween consumers away from fee use of media.

EDIT: The big issue with scenario one is one might need to limit the number of "additional play" licenses to say 2, to stop the friend distribution model, I buy the game and give to my friends to buy at $8 a piece and we cover the cost of the single purchase. All things considered...just nuke all used games. It's the only way to be sure <Aliens>

EDIT2: In the current model a $60 game could change hands several times selling for ($55 once and then again for $40 and perhaps one more time for $20 that's $115 of lost revenue with just 3 resales hmmm - Yep no used games next gen at all.)

 

[aeolist]

Do not paint MS (or Sony) as the bad guy looking to make a cut of our precious used market. It is the publishers who are really losing out, the cost of development is going to continue to increase as more resources are required for the growing size and assets. Developers are already being squeezed out of the market and are killing themselves to turn a profit in many cases.

If in my business, my customers were trading my products to their neighbors instead of their neighbors buying new ones when needed, I would go out of business. It is not sustainable in some industries.

The publishers are losing millions in EARNED revenue for the intellectual property. It is the future as the technology becomes available for them to protect that interest and to earn income instead of Gamestop.

This coming from a Gamestop trade-in whore.

The problem is that the power they are trying to leverage their way into here isn't just going to be used against Gamestop but against consumers directly and so far it's looking like there's no benefit on our end.

If the new Xbox turns into Steam it'll be good for people who have one, but I doubt very much that this is what will happen.

 

[Dr.Acula]

But then you lose the impluse buy market. I've bought games randomly because they looked interesting. Some I've liked. Other's turned out trash and I quickly sold them. If I couldn't do that anymore I'd buy less games.

And that's ignoring the fact I sell most old games in order to fund new games. If I lose that I'd just buy less games in general or wait till they become cheaper

That's the one argument that brick&mortar store have been making that holds up. Their data suggests that most customers selling games are buying new games when they do.

Of course this is self interest, stores want to be able to sell used games, but stores warn publishers that the used games sellers are big big purchasers, and that killing the second hand market lowers sales ultimately for everyone.

Personally, as someone who only buys new games and never sells any, I'd like to see an elimination of the used games market just to see the economic impact play out. I'm curious to who's right.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Do not paint MS (or Sony) as the bad guy looking to make a cut of our precious used market. It is the publishers who are really losing out, the cost of development is going to continue to increase as more resources are required for the growing size and assets. Developers are already being squeezed out of the market and are killing themselves to turn a profit in many cases.

If in my business, my customers were trading my products to their neighbors instead of their neighbors buying new ones when needed, I would go out of business. It is not sustainable in some industries.

The publishers are losing millions in EARNED revenue for the intellectual property. It is the future as the technology becomes available for them to protect that interest and to earn income instead of Gamestop.

This coming from a Gamestop trade-in whore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Too bad that eliminating the used market is expressly illegal then.

Plenty of businesses have to deal with used markets. The games industry is not some special snowflake.

And how is it not sustainable? Used games have existed for more than two decades and games have thrived. If companies are having a more difficult time making ends meet now maybe we should look at other, newer developments first.

 

[deadlast]

Right.

To those I've talked to, they would be buying less games because of it.

A lot of impulse buyers make up the casual market.

Punishing impulse buyers doesn't really factor in to MS going for the casuals.

Great!
Next Gen, it only does CoD and similar games.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

As I've said many a time before :- if you make these measure to get rid of used games, the used game market will just move from software to hardware. People will sell their consoles and accounts with games bundled.

You may limit it but you will never eliminate it.