New Durango devkit Pic?
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Proelite
Member
Words from some one who worked on the Durango himself...
bkilian said:
And it's a fact that he knows much much more than me or you when it comes to flops.
Primitive rate, depends on the amount of Geometry engines in the ATI GCN GPUs.
1 prim/clock = 1 GE
2 prim/clock = 2 GE
See;
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7850_HD_7870/images/slide2.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_7770/images/slide3.jpg
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Yes, but those are only theoretical numbers for isolated GPUs. In reality, however, they're not isolated components, a GPU functions as a part of the greater whole, and from what we know, overall architectures of PS4 and Durango differ in many ways. What kind of performance gulf we'll be looking at in the end is impossible to tell at this point - impossible for us, that is, not for developers who've had plenty of first hand experience with both.
Just_myles
Member
Both stats seem like overkill imo and expensive (development and unit costs). Guess i am going to have to choose one and wait for the other to price down.
If I remember correctly, Those comments were made when devs had the PS4 Alpha dev kits. which were basically modded PCs according to Vgleaks. maybe things change when they finally got actual PS4 hardware.
Ah, so it's the triangle setup and it's the same as Pitcairn and Tahiti. Thanks.
At 800Mhz, (if MS truly has gone for a downclocked version of this chip) then it'll produce around 1.43TF. Makes me wonder what kind of TMU and ROPs figure it will have. If they stick to 128 bit for memory interface however, that will be a bottleneck.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Agreed, FLOPS is just a single number, there are so many variables for the overall system. The more important question is "where is the system's bottleneck and can you program around it (and is it worth doing?)?"
Proelite
Member
Given that the rest of the console are a wash, the one with significantly more ram available for games will have noticeable advantages on screen.
Could it be that PS4's OS may reserve up to 2GB (at least at the beginning of the generation) and XB3 could now have updated their OS footprint figure to around 6-7GB as well?
Proelite
Member
OS footprint for Durango is about 8 gigs. You have to buy ram expansion packs to play games. Conversely, PS4 doesn't come with an OS.
Depends on how well MS can optimze the Kinect code. A portion of the RAM set aside was also supposed to cover Kinect assets I believe.
My guess the rest of the space is used for a slightly modified Windows 8. What's min requirements for that on PC?
EDIT: Found it. 1GB for 32-bit and 2GB for 64-bit
Dang! I knew they were going to gouge customers through proprietary something.
Thanks.
Tripp Daily
Member
Why? You are getting worked up over something that as of today is not a real world problem. You have no idea what either system is capable of when it comes to real world performance.
My Opinion (which I think is pretty much fact) about the new Xbox and PS4
- The new Xbox will have excellent looking games and services that you will be happy with.
- The new Playstation will have excellent looking games and services that you will be happy with.
- The area that seems to have everyone worried about is 3rd party games that may have issues like Skyrim, but the problem with that is this generation there were 2 consoles with vastly different architectures. A lot of signs point to next-gen the 2 consoles have roughly the same architecture. I don't think you are going to see the performance issues in multi-platform games.
dragonelite
Member
I think in this case it means the gpu can process 2 triangles in one clock cycle or 2 line in one clock cycle instead of one triangle.
Unless they mean with Primitive something else then triangles or lines.
I don't know about you, but the possible revelation of multiplats being made with 5GB in mind is highly disappointing. It would be the Durango holding back multiplats and essentially PC devlopment if true.
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Not this shit again...
Proelite
Member
Highly unlikely that 5GB of ram isn't sufficient for next generation.
It's going to be about as similar to Windows 8 as the Windows Phone 8 OS.
Is it wrong to think that Microsoft wants the same experience across all platforms? They are trying with PC, tablets, and, and phones.
I'd be happy if they didn't go in this direction with the console, but "one OS for everything" seems to be part of their gameplan.
Hopefully this.
dragonelite
Member
We are also talking about 2gb of OS footprint in ps4 favor.
2GB is a shit load more then 256mb.
That would probably mean multiplat developers have to jump through hoops tinker more with assets streaming on Durango and stuff instead of spending more time on optimizing or making cooler gameplay implementation.
If the OS footprint is true developers will be complaining. And really why would they need windows 8 on it.
We will never get desktop.
Input devices will be kinect and controller maybe keyboard.
Tripp Daily
Member
Give me some examples on how and why your statement is true. What games have had their experience ruined for you on the current consoles because of the gap in ram when compared to a PC?
I must be the only person in this forum that doesn't have super spidey senses when it comes to seeing performance gaps. Are we not facing some sort of diminishing returns on hardware by now?
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
You are fooling yourself if you think PC games would be developed with 8 gigs of ram as the baseline.
Let's aim lower. Go with Wii U instead.
At the end of PS2, GC, and Xbox gen people were talking about "diminishing returns". There is no such thing.
Tripp Daily
Member
Really?
Take the best looking game from the playstation(no idea) compared xbox (Chaos Theory?).
Then compare Chaos Theory to the best looking 360 game(Halo 4/Crysis 3?)
You think the gap is the same between generations?
I never said such a thing.
For fun, Silent Hill 3, Resident Evil 4, and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory were the best looking games on consoles that gen. IMO
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They currently have one OS for PC (Windows 8), two for tablets (Windows 8 and Windows RT, which are somewhat similar, but RT is not a straight port of Windows 8 to ARM), and one for mobile phones (Windows Phone 8). It's not a single OS, that idea is a total misconception.
Windows 8 would be a complete overkill for a console, it would make zero sense, people need to let go of that silly notion. Even if they were to make Durango capable of running Windows Store apps (which are not the same as Window Phone Store apps, even though they both use the Metro UI) - although that would also be an unnecessary overkill on a closed system with limited input capabilities - they would only need to implement the Windows Runtime API, not the whole of Windows 8.
But the PlayStation wasn't the most powerful console from that generation so maybe you should look at it like this.
PS1 to Xbox
vs
Dreamcast to PlayStation 3
Isn't a lot of code between Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 very similar? Including the same kernel? Filesystems and security as well I believe?
Tripp Daily
Member
It's more about generation to generation and not platform. Xbox just happens to be the platform I know the most.
I'm well aware that there are more components which contribute to performance than just a GPUs FLOP count. However:
- if the rumours are correct, the PS4 GPU is scaled up in almost every possible way compared to Durango, not just FLOPs
- when comparing two GPUs based on the same architecture, their relative FLOP ratio absolutely is a significant performance indicator for some workloads
And I can make a cohesive arguments for both of those without appeals to authority!
On the other hand, I really don't see why people consider any difference (if there even is one) in RAM amount all that significant. Games will be designed around the lower number, and honestly, that lower number should still be more than sufficient considering all the other specs of the consoles.
Yup, the amount of ram is insignificant for multiplatform development... for the most part. If developers choose to optimize one platform's version of the game, that is at their discretion. Mostly the amount of ram will benefit the exclusive titles, but then you really have no basis to compare.
they could easily do that. Even budget laptops these days have 8GB ram. Often mainstream stores like PC world will give you 12-16GB RAM because its a bullet point, never mind you don't need it. Its cheap to add and sounds good.
I'd say 8GB could be at least a 'preferred' spec next year, along with 2GB VRAM on GPUs.
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It implements some of the same functionality, yes, but those are all extremely low level functions, a full OS is comprised of a lot more than that. They're different operating systems, significantly so.
By the way, I fully expect Durango's OS to be based on the NT kernel, but that's not nearly the same as saying it would run a version of Windows 8. Almost every OS Microsoft has made in more than a decade has been based on the NT kernel.
The front-end is definitely very different, but at the core, most of the functionality is there, but not used depending on the device you're using and whatever Operating System it runs.
And of course DurangOs will build a layer on top of the core for it's own purposes.
So instead of RRODing, it'll pop up a screen asking us to insert our Windows installation disc and restart our computer?
Miles Quaritch
Member
I hope not, I want clarification on his comment that games will look better at E3 than they will at release.
My own baseless speculation sees Durango winding up somewhere in the 1.4tflop ballpark, depending on if they can up the clock speed. Both Sony and MS seem to be targeting balanced clocks for the CPU/GPU due to HSA implementation. It's not necessary but it helps efficiency so if they up the CPU the GPU will likely follow. I think any changes to the CPU performance rest on if they GPU can handle the upclock. Again, completely baseless speculation. Just what I think could change since it's too late for architectural changes, clockspeeds are pretty much the one thing that can shift.
Haven't heard this comment but it's not rare for this to happen. Look at Halo 2, Far Cry 3, Homefront, and Assassin's Creed 3. Sometimes a polished vertical slice will look better than final games.
Miles Quaritch
Member
True, but vertical slices often don't appear the same year as release and unless I'm very much mistaken, they often aren't playable in the traditional sense.
Far Cry 3's was exactly that and it looked better than the PC version. I even know exactly what mission it was.
A wash? So does the PS4 no longer have the ROP, CU etc advantage?
I agree with your overall point, but the bolded is actually false. Windows RT is a 100% clean port of x86 Windows. It's just that Microsoft lock it down by only allowing code that's signed in a certain way.
This is what makes sense to me as well. If Sony are trying to do what the rumour suggest, i.e. boost the CPU clock then this wouldn't come as a surprise in the slightest.
If I remember correctly, his claim was that the Durango dev kits were significantly more powerful than the final version, hence the games looking significantly better at E3 than the retail release.
1. I was under the general assumption that both PC and tablet versions were identical in every way. If I was wrong, then I learned something today.
2. The experience between platforms will still be similar. PC and table use the same Metro UI for it's purposes. The 720 will most likely use Metro over the NT kernal. Some tiles will change, but it'll have the same setup. Windows Store becomes the Xbox storefront; Outlook/Mail will become your message service; pop in a few live tiles for other services (Twitter, Facebook, video programs); lastly you have a tile for each game.
Control will be though controller or Kinect, with Kinect being the one MS pushes for consumers to use. Experience will be the same as navigating on a PC, 720, and tablet without the option of a more 'normal' windows experience on the console.
3. I agree that MS using the same build of Win 8 on PC and 720 is a bad idea, but it's still a possibility they could go with. Remove access to the backend, keep the same basic file system and structure, and throw the modified Metro UI on top. Similar experience for all your Microsoft products.
this might answer your question
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