SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

Horse Detective said:
I thought her pinky existing in another universe was the explanation...
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That was my interpretation. Her body physically being in two places at one time allows her access to tears. That coupled with the expirements from the Lutece on her since she was a baby more than likely gave her the ability to control it.
 
ThaiGrocer said:
Remember old granny Elizabeth? She's the near-final outcome of the looping. End of spiral? This quantum stuff, god damn.
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Okay, thats the "end" of the loop, if Songbird captures her in all those realities.

But the fact that the loop existed proves that she didn't change anything until this instance...

Thats my question, why did she all the sudden do that, just in that universe?
 
Creamium said:
I beat the game this morning and what happened just kept running through my mind, couldn't make sense of it. I've read Chandoog's write-up on the first page and that clarifies things a bit, but I still have to read more. What I still don't understand is how Liz got her powers... She was the first one to be able to see and interact with tears right? Was she born with those powers or were these results of the Lucete twins (or other scientists) experimenting on her?
So the Lucete twins, during their research on tears got sabotaged by Comstock (why? wasn't he paying for their research?), and as a result were scattered over space/time.
A lot of pieces still have to fall in place for me. But in the first place I'd like to know where Liz' powers come from, since she was just a 'normal' kid who happened to be sent to a different reality.

Both BioShock and Infinite leave you thinking after you've finished, but in different ways. In the former the plot was pretty straightforward, but the themes and content stick with you. Infinite runs around in your head as well, but more because you want to piece everything together and try to make sense of it all. Tbh I like the former better.

I might scroll through some of the diaries tonight to see if they make more sense now.
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The tears can be seen by anyone - Fink and others got their knowledge from the tears, all of the plagiarized music came from tears to another reality, etc. Elizabeth is the only one that can control them, but anyone can see them - even Booker sees them when the player plays the game.

The source of Elizabeth's power remains a mystery, much like the origin of the songbird or Comstock's newfound wealth. That's not to say that there aren't answers to these things, but that answers to these things aren't necessarily germane to the story being told. This is a game about possibilities and realities; about condensing probabilities into actualities, and about the conflict between narrative and mechanic. Elizabeth's powers are a tool for exploring that concept, but I don't think the game has any intention (or obligation) to explain where those powers originate any more than we need to know how Comstock got wealthy or the Songbird was tamed.

The Lucete twins were disposed of because they were aware of Comstock's plot - that Elizabeth wasn't his (or more to the point, that she was) and had them done away with by an "accident" with their equipment that really scattered them across time/space rather than outright killed them.
 
Does it matter whether you chose the bird or the cage necklace? I picked the cage and the song to control the Songbird coincidentally were the notes C-A-G-E
 
Well, to say things I didn't liked then:

I think there was too much infodump in the ending. It felt like the ending of some TV Shows (Lost, Battlestar Gallactica) where everything has to happen at once in the final 30 minutes. But TV Shows (and monthly superhero comic books) are doomed to lure their audience to the last chapter.

I don't know what is the excuse here, it's not like you would stop playing if the Booker is Comstock thing was revealed, for example, by Lady Comstock. And then the game would have time to talk it over as giving an extra boost to find Comstock in the end. As it was, once Elizabeth was rescued, I just wanted the game to end, and then there was an extra long fight with Vox Populi, which made little sense.

And yeah, as for Vox Populi, I think they were very underdeveloped. The only reasons we are supposed to dislike them are that Elizabeth dislike them and that they are shooting at us, which is very reasonable given that, yeah, if Fitzroy saw Booker dead, why wouldn't he think a new Booker showing up isn't some kind of trap? To run the point home, she puts a gun to a kid's weapon so we see just how mean she is. Look, there is balance in the discourse, on one side we have a racist theocracy using all its power to create poverty on purpose to those it deems inferior, on the other side, look how much of a meanie this black lady is. And she forces poor Elizabeth to kill her. How dare she? :(

Anyway, that's the rant. A lot I liked, but I don't I'll ever enjoy when these Sci-fi stories decide they have 15 minutes to explain everything to me at once. And then people "discuss" it in public and they go "see? My script generated buzz".
No your script generated confused fans who need the help of an internet forum to figure out what you couldn't explain properly in the game.
 
SmithnCo said:
EVERYWHERE

But really I have no idea where they could go now, though I can say I'm intensely interested to see if they plan on continuing it.
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Space!

The constants are a man and the lighthouse right? Next game the lighthouse teleports you up to a space station where a malevolent AI has usurped control from the man in charge. I expect my royalties Ken.

Alucrid said:
So after that ending I wonder what the DLC will be now.
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I think the assassination of the Lutece twins or anything Letece is a good candidate.
 
Baconsaurus Rex said:
Does it matter whether you chose the bird or the cage necklace? I picked the cage and the song to control the Songbird coincidentally were the notes C-A-G-E
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The choker is superficial. It has no impact on the game at all. It's jut what you want Elizabeth to wear through the game.

The notes are always C-A-G-E.
 
Horse Detective said:
I already watched that, he doesn't mention old Elizabeth.
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The loop doesn't last forever if you look at ultimate outcome of what Booker chose to do with the Lettuces in the "beginning". It's just a pretty, bold circle, so to speak, with an end to the string. She's the one that attacked NYC in 1984 and decided that she didn't want it. So she said she worked really hard to get the Booker and Liz you're playing to stop all of this from happening. The player is just near the end of the circling.
Horse Detective said:
The answer to every question is just "LOL MULTIVERSE"
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On a superficial level, yes. LOL.
 
OHHHHHHHHH.


I'm so stupid. Elizabeth can open tears, by that point she already knows the outcome, so ultimately she is the factor that can change any of the time lines.


Guys, when everything is figured out, we need to paste it all in the OT. That, or this thread is going to become a freaking time loop.
 
Horse Detective said:
OHHHHHHHHH.


I'm so stupid. Elizabeth can open tears, by that point she already knows the outcome, so ultimately she is the factor that can change any of the time lines.


Guys, when everything is figured out, we need to paste it all in the OT. That, or this thread is going to become a freaking time loop.
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edit: bad joke.

It's a pretty elegant ending, unless I'm missing something. Somebody throw a wrench in this sucker.
 
Restarted on Hard. The dream sequences in the beginning have a clear contorted lullaby theme and if you listen to the ambiance you can hear a baby's cry.

Has anyone tried a play through where they don't steal at all? I'm curious as to whether that's something that could effect the ending. It's one of the rare occasions where the game prompts you and let's you know it's a moral choice.

Edit: Also saw the Lutece twins in the telescope but not in the game. Awesome.
 
Does anyone think the setting will ever be topped? I couldn't imagine somewhere being as interesting to look at or explore as a colourful city in the sky.
 
SGRemy said:
At the end of playthrough 2 and I STILL fell for the boys of silence scare -_-
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The second time on hard, I just turned slowly to the right and then walked against the wall. I never got the see the dude. Loud as hell, though. Then it was followed by 3 minutes of spamming charge at everything. Dishonored: Infinite.
 
Horse Detective said:
OHHHHHHHHH.


I'm so stupid. Elizabeth can open tears, by that point she already knows the outcome, so ultimately she is the factor that can change any of the time lines.


Guys, when everything is figured out, we need to paste it all in the OT. That, or this thread is going to become a freaking time loop.
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Ok, okay, ok. So all the other Elizabeths that appear and smother Booker, were they all different versions of her from other timelines that ultimately converge at this one point in time where Booker is about to be born again and smother him so that Comstork will not exist? If so were they all rescued by a different version of Booker as well?

But then, all this loops right? So everything that happened up to this point has to happen again - so there will always be an Elizabeth leading a Booker to his ultimate sacrifice, for perpetuity? So all the events that led to Booker meeting Elizabeth in Columbia will happen again and again?

Sorry for the rambling nature, my brain is a loop.
 
symphonask said:
Ok, okay, ok. So all the other Elizabeths that appear and smother Booker, were they all different versions of her from other timelines that ultimately converge at this one point in time where Booker is about to be born again and smother him so that Comstork will not exist? If so were they all rescued by a different version of Booker as well?

But then, all this loops right? So everything that happened up to this point has to happen again - so there will always be an Elizabeth leading a Booker to his ultimate sacrifice, for perpetuity? So all the events that led to Booker meeting Elizabeth in Columbia will happen again and again?

Sorry for the rambling nature, my brain is a loop.
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They killed Booker before he accepted the baptism so every Comstock is dead or can't exist. That leaves only the dimensions where he doesn't accept the baptism so Comstock never exists and never shows up to buy Anna.
 
My fucking god i am BLOWN AWAY. That was an amazing ending.

So booker was indebted, and as a recompense he gave away elizabeth (anna).

but if comstock is booker, how is he infertile? The machine did it?

I need a full explanation my head is boggled
 
1999 Playthrough things I've noticed:

At the beginning of the game, when you're talking to Comstock through the video feed. Just as Comstock says, "This will end in blood, Booker. But then again, it always does with you," Booker gets a nose bleed. Why? Is it as simple as another Booker died in a parallel universe at that moment?
 
Plasmid said:
fuck sake double post
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There are a lot of universes and in one or more, he never got Anna because he accepted the baptism. He became Comstock and got infertile because of the experiments of the Luteces.

He let the Luteces open up a tear to a universe where he had a child and snatched it away.
 
Horse Detective said:
I thought her pinky existing in another universe was the explanation...
Click to expand...

Of course, that makes sense... kinda.

Campster said:
The Lucete twins were disposed of because they were aware of Comstock's plot - that Elizabeth wasn't his (or more to the point, that she was) and had them done away with by an "accident" with their equipment that really scattered them across time/space rather than outright killed them.
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Ah yes, this was in an audio log, somehow I forgot. Thanks for explaining
 
vogelkacke said:
There are a lot of universes and in one or more, he never got Anna because he accepted the baptism. He became Comstock and got infertile because of the experiments of the Luteces.

He let the Luteces open up a tear to a universe where he had a child and snatched it away.
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So did comstock in multiverse one know it was himself coming to kill him?

So because he dies in the baptism anna is never born? Couldn't they just open more multiverses? Or does it all start with booker becoming comstock?
 
chandoog said:
Regarding Rapture's appearance.
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I thought it was clear-ish that In regards to BS1/BSI, Jack = Booker, Big Daddy = Songbird, and Little Sister = Elizabeth. It doesn't make sense in terms of how their stories pan out and how they interact, but they always exist.
 
vogelkacke said:
They killed Booker before he accepted the baptism so every Comstock is dead or can't exist. That leaves only the dimensions where he doesn't accept the baptism so Comstock never exists and never shows up to buy Anna.
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All those other Elizabeths that smother Booker, they're from alternate timelines where a different Booker also rescued them from Columbia?
 
Willkiller said:
I'm really interested to see how they handle DLC now
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Zachary Comstock Acquires His Wealth: Play as Comstock and you scavenge the entire world for money hidden in desks, trash cans, cashiers, lunchboxes, dead bodies, alive bodies, safes, Ken Levine's head, and wallets. Dozens of hours of clicking on shiny things and watching your meters and bars fill up.

"The Lord forgives all...including all this ransacking, hopefully"
 
So what was the variable in our Booker's dimension that allowed the Lutece's plan to actually work? Or did the drowning happen every time too?
 
Creamium said:
What I still don't understand is how Liz got her powers... She was the first one to be able to see and interact with tears right? Was she born with those powers or were these results of the Lucete twins (or other scientists) experimenting on her?
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There's a voxophone log that heavily supports the finger theory. It's placed in Monument Tower shortly after you see her open a tear to Paris. Transcript:

The Source of Her Power - Rosalind Lutece
September the 5th, 1909
Location: Specimen Observation
What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is, and rather more with what she is not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas mixed with its porridge.
 
Bucca said:
But wasn't Comstock's ideology, while religious, against an actual God and more towards just worshiping men like the founding fathers? How would he still exist if he was baptised?

Now that I think about it, how would he exist if he wasn't baptised? Wouldn't that in turn show him rejecting religion all together and therefore defeating his religious viewpoints?

Maybe I'm delving too far into this :lol.
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It's pretty clear that the character of Comstock only happens if Booker gets baptized. I don't think its far fetched to assume that a combination of PTSD and religion could twist his ideals into something completely crazy. When Lucrece discovered the tears he likely thought it was divine power that he was allowed to use them, further twisting his idealogy.
 
Sblargh said:
And yeah, as for Vox Populi, I think they were very underdeveloped. The only reasons we are supposed to dislike them are that Elizabeth dislike them and that they are shooting at us, which is very reasonable given that, yeah, if Fitzroy saw Booker dead, why wouldn't he think a new Booker showing up isn't some kind of trap? To run the point home, she puts a gun to a kid's weapon so we see just how mean she is. Look, there is balance in the discourse, on one side we have a racist theocracy using all its power to create poverty on purpose to those it deems inferior, on the other side, look how much of a meanie this black lady is. And she forces poor Elizabeth to kill her. How dare she?
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I actually thought the Vox were one of the things they did well, but I'm not sure if you missed a lot of stuff that was going on in the game world that wasn't explicitly spelled out for you.

There were scenes all over the game world showing you that, in a way, Vox Populi were just as bad, if not worse, in their racism and actions than the current regime; instead of a revolution for equal rights, it was a revolution of revenge and punishment.

For instance, there was a scene of the aftermath of handcuffed civilians being executed by Vox soldiers while kneeling against the wall at a "train" station that had been covered in Vox paint. There's also scenes of Vox soldiers looting a dead civilian while talking about how funny it was to kill them and scenes of Vox robbing civilians. There's also defacement of all the shops and housing with Vox paint. The civilians were having to flee the city for fear of being killed.

There's load of things like that in the game world, but I'd be here forever listing them.
 
WJD said:
So what was the variable in our Booker's dimension that allowed the Lutece's plan to actually work? Or did the drowning happen every time too?
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Booker and Elizabeth learning how to control the Songbird and destroying the Siphon, which lead to Elizabeth actually seeing and understanding the cycle they have been stuck in. At least that is how I see it after one playthrough.

Scratch said:
he didn't fight songbird
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And this. All previous Bookers fought the Songbird and died.
 
Dinosaur Tamer said:
Booker and Elizabeth learning how to control the Songbird and destroying the cipher, which lead to Elizabeth actually seeing and understanding the cycle they have been stuck in. At least that is how I see it after one playthrough.
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Yeah I think destroying the ciphon did the trick.
 
B-"We could turn this thing around and go straight to Paris."

E-"Just drop me off if you have to. This isn't your fight, its mine."

B-"I won't abandon you."

E-"You wouldn't....would you?"

Damn second playthrough is better than the first. Noticing all of the little things.
 
The thing that I still don't understand is Lutece.

So, she opened tears to find her alternative self? There's an audio-diary where she says they can finally 'be together' (perhaps as intellectuals). So, how many realities are there? "Infinite?". There's a universe where Lutece happens to be born a boy, and goes through all of the same qualifications, writes the same books...

So how does this work? Is it time travel? Alternative dimensions? Both? Why would going back and killing Booker before the baptism stop the Comstock's who already exist? Why couldn't they go back further, and stop him from taking part in Wounded Knee?

Wait, Wounded Knee. Why does Comstock take credit for taking part in Wounded Knee, when that was his un-baptised self? He remembers, and knows who Booker (he) is? You'd think that someone who feels guilt for killing would be more docile. And he just ... meets Lutece? Who says "Hey sure, floating city, whatever?". It isn't like he research wouldn't be appreciated in America; Andrew Ryan provided a place where human experimentation was possible without restriction so plasmids are understandable there. Did she really just want to experiment on a child like Elizabeth? How does she constantly meet Booker and Elizabeth? Are the Lutece's from another dimension aware of what occurred in this one?

Boy, this game is meta. You open one door, and there are a thousand more to go through.
 
Dinosaur Tamer said:
Booker and Elizabeth learning how to control the Songbird and destroying the ciphon, which lead to Elizabeth actually seeing and understanding the cycle they have been stuck in. At least that is how I see it after one playthrough.
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Yeah. I didn't understand what old lady Elizabeth and sudden weather change was all about until the second playthrough. Everything just clicks together nicely.
 
Sai-kun said:
I thought it was clear-ish that In regards to BS1/BSI, Jack = Booker, Big Daddy = Songbird, and Little Sister = Elizabeth. It doesn't make sense in terms of how their stories pan out and how they interact, but they always exist.
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I interpreted it as in, Ryan = Booker/Comstock, Jack = Elizabeth, I think that makes more sense in how their stories pan out. If Ryan existed in a reality without Rapture then he'd likely be equally as despicable but on a smaller scale, also there's the fact Jack is the child of Ryan who ultimately brings down their fathers empire.

This does make Bioshock 2 an interesting case where the paternal relationship between a father and his daughter is the thing that brings down a man who's actually a woman in Lamb. Who knows if that's even considered cannon though.
 
Plasmid said:
I just finished reading this and i think this is the best explanation possible.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bioshock/comments/1b4fmx/my_detailed_ending_explanation_my_attempt_at_the/

I totally get why daisy fitzroy was freaked out.
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From that link:
The Bioshock link. The story makes it clear that Bioshock/Rapture/Ryan/Little Sisters/Big Daddies were just another "infinite variable" of Columbia/Comstock/Elizabeth/Song Bird. This is troubling since it implies that the entire Bioshock story was just another derivative of the current story, and it also implies that that entire Bioshock universe ceases to exist once the infinite loop is closed. It's also very puzzling to figure out how a man born in the 1800's could end up becoming Andrew Ryan. Or how a man inspired to create a city through scripture, would end up as a the "godless industralist" that was Ryan.
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this sort of bothers me. i can't really understand the connection to how the events of Bioshock 1 are parallel to Bioshock Infinite. sure there are similar themes, but they take place in different time periods, with completely different characters. Hopefully I, or someone else, can find a more solid connection.

for now, i suppose i can just accept that Rapture is a derivative of Columbia. honestly, I hope there's something more than that though.
 
ThaiGrocer said:
I think you're on the money. I just took the single booker in that scene for artistic reasons.
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Okay, we can agree that we have multiple Elizabeth's rescued by multiple Bookers that all converge in the timeline where Booker is about to be baptized and smother him, thus closing the loop, breaking the cycle - ultimately stopping Comstock from existing.

So, out of the dozens and dozens of times the Luteces' lured Booker to Columbia to end Comstock's reign, they're plan didn't just work once but multiple times? (as evidenced by the multiple Liz' smothering Booker)
 
symphonask said:
Okay, we can agree that we have multiple Elizabeth's rescued by multiple Bookers that all converge in the timeline where Booker is about to be baptized and smother him, thus closing the loop, breaking the cycle - ultimately stopping Comstock from existing.

So, out of the dozens and dozens of times the Luteces' lured Booker to Columbia to end Comstock's reign, they're plan didn't just work once but multiple times? (as evidenced by the multiple Liz' smothering Booker)
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Had to in order to end the creation of all Comcasts from every world. Also failed multiple times.
 
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