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[Sorian]

That's true. But what about all those Bookers, who never even went to the lake.

I think going to the lake is the same kind of decision as when the twins asked you heads or tails near the beginning. No matter what, you always go to the lake. That is a constant, not a variable.

Best part "Now to get elizabe... HOLY FUCK BOY OF SILENCE"

First time I've jumped in awhile even though I knew to expect something since the camera was acting funny. Did a good job of keeping me on my toes the rest of the game.

Edit: Also, haha I've gotten top of page for page 19 and 20 (assuming 50 posts per page)

 

[Noray]

My take on the post-credits scene: Booker died at the baptism so Comstock would never be born. However, there are still timelines out there where Booker DIDN'T go to the baptism in the first place. In at least one of those, he still had Anna. And in one of those, I hope he turned out to be a good father.

As for Elizabeth, I think she disappears at the end when it smash cuts to black before the credits, sadly. Since she was never given away to Comstock, the pinky incident never happened and she never developed her powers. Then again, because she's unshackled, she could've become like the Luteces and exist outside of space and time. Let's go with that actually.

Fuck me it's insane how much this game got to me. Just thinking about old Elizabeth, and all the lifetimes she's seen, all the Bookers she's seen die... And then to finally break free. SO MANY FEELS.

 

[Nemesis_]

Couldn't agree more.

The Dancing thing was a good point to bring up too. And the way she dances along the pier towards you after she distracts you too. She's very Disney, and they were inspired by her, but it's just done so well.

 

[ThaiGrocer]

DLC with more old Elizabeth would be interesting.

 

[Sorian]

DLC with more old Elizabeth would be interesting.

An alternate ending DLC would be interesting as well (which could tie into more old Elizabeth). Maybe showing a Booker who decided fighting the songbird would be a good idea. I also think there should be or is more to the songbird. I got strong vibes that the songbird was a booker who had failed to save Elizabeth (so any of the other dozen, hundreds, thousands, etc.) and I was disappointed to not get much back story there.

 

[Grief.exe]

My take on the post-credits scene: Booker died at the baptism so Comstock would never be born. However, there are still timelines out there where Booker DIDN'T go to the baptism in the first place. In at least one of those, he still had Anna. And in one of those, I hope he turned out to be a good father.

As for Elizabeth, I think she disappears at the end when it smash cuts to black before the credits, sadly. Since she was never given away to Comstock, the pinky incident never happened and she never developed her powers. Then again, because she's unshackled, she could've become like the Luteces and exist outside of space and time. Let's go with that actually.

Fuck me it's insane how much this game got to me. Just thinking about old Elizabeth, and all the lifetimes she's seen, all the Bookers she's seen die... And then to finally break free. SO MANY FEELS.

I think you are missing the point. Comstock and Booker are the same person.

In one timeline, Booker became Comstock, in another he stayed himself.

Comstock sterilized himself when they were experimenting with the tears, he stole his own daughter from a Booker in another timeline.

He was killed after the battle of wounded knee, when he went to the Baptism.

That means he couldn't become Comstock, and he never conceived Anna

Neither existed in the timelines.

You could argue there are other timelines where he didn't fight in Wounded Knee though, and would have never seen a reason to get a Baptism.

An alternate ending DLC would be interesting as well (which could tie into more old Elizabeth). Maybe showing a Booker who decided fighting the songbird would be a good idea. I also think there should be or is more to the songbird. I got strong vibes that the songbird was a booker who had failed to save Elizabeth (so any of the other dozen, hundreds, thousands, etc.) and I was disappointed to not get much back story there.

I was actually sad when the Songbird died.

 

[Noray]

I think you are missing the point. Comstock and Booker are the same person.

In one timeline, Booker became Comstock, in another he stayed himself.

Comstock sterilized himself when they were experimenting with the tears, he stole his own daughter from a Booker in another timeline.

He was killed after the battle of wounded knee, when he went to the Baptism.

That means he couldn't become Comstock, and he never conceived Anna

Neither existed in the timelines.

You could argue there are other timelines where he didn't fight in Wounded Knee though, and would have never seen a reason to get a Baptism.



I was actually sad when the Songbird died.

I know all that, don't know what led you to assume I didn't? I'm saying that with ComstockPrime dead, as our Booker died at the baptism, another version of Booker who didn't go to the baptism at all got to live out a life with Anna.

 

[APZonerunner]

I'm just going to look at the unreleased material as alternate timelines, lol.

Interestingly, they sort of do this - I didn't realize at the time, but at the very end when all the alternate universe Elizabeths show up, some of them are from the old demos, when her design was different - so it almost suggests that the cut footage we saw was from another version of Columbia with another Booker and Elizabeth!

 

[Horse Detective]

My answer to your question is that the twins didn't know how to get every permutation of Comstock. They were just redoing this scenario over and over again until they got a booker that could make Elizabeth see all timelines. Then it was up to Elizabeth to take care of every Comstock permutation. Even in the scenario that you brought up where the twins still worked with Comstock, these twins are already jumping through the different multiverses.

Bingo. Our minds are one.

Elizabeth's decision is all.

 

[Sorian]

Interestingly, they sort of do this - I didn't realize at the time, but at the very end when all the alternate universe Elizabeths show up, some of them are from the old demos, when her design was different - so it almost suggests that the cut footage we saw was from another version of Columbia with another Booker and Elizabeth!

Oh Ken, you and your silly tricks!

Spoiler

I noticed this too and its a great nod to why they went out of their way to say they had cut so much material that it could have made 5 other games

I have to say, when we first saw Columbia back in......2010? I don't think anyone expected the game to be this deep.

I was actually sad when the Songbird died.

RIP buddy. Here's to hoping that a future DLC sheds some more light and know that I'm thankful I sprung for that awesome statue of you and you will stand proud on my mantle.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Oh Ken, you and your silly tricks!

Spoiler

I noticed this too and its a great nod to why they went out of their way to say they had cut so much material that it could have made 5 other games

I have to say, when we first saw Columbia back in......2010? I don't think anyone expected the game to be this deep.

I didn't expect it to be this deep since yesterday. I thought the whole time manipulation thing would just be a cool ability Elizabeth had.

 

[Grief.exe]

I know all that, don't know what led you to assume I didn't? I'm saying that with ComstockPrime dead, as our Booker died at the baptism, another version of Booker who didn't go to the baptism at all got to live out a life with Anna.

My bad man, sorry. I just skipped over the part where you said 'post credits'

 

[Alienous]

As religion is so key to the plot, it seems strange that Comstock was a politician and part of "the founders" for so long during development. It almost seems like Levine wanted to shy away from the religious aspect, but it is a brave thing to do and adds an interesting perspective.

 

[Moff]

i stil dont understand how killing player-booker ends the loop. it doesnt make sense. they should have killed pre-baptism booker.

 

[B-Dex]

When will Rihanna tbh? All the covers were so good. Might have to get the soundtrack (if the covers even get on it).

 

[Moobabe]

When will Rihanna tbh? All the covers were so good. Might have to get the soundtrack (if the covers even get on it).

Disappointing that these weren't on the soundtrack, though understandable.

 

[symphonask]

My answer to your question is that the twins didn't know how to get every permutation of Comstock. They were just redoing this scenario over and over again until they got a booker that could make Elizabeth see all timelines. Then it was up to Elizabeth to take care of every Comstock permutation. Even in the scenario that you brought up where the twins still worked with Comstock, these twins are already jumping through the different multiverses.

Don't know how I missed this post reading the thread, thanks for the reply.

I like this interpretation. It ties it up neatly.

I could see some people being annoyed that all this depends on Liz becoming an all-seeing deity at the end and the fact that they don't really explain 'how?' (is it her pinky? or the experiments she suffered?) might annoy some people though.

 

[Voice of Reason]

i stil dont understand how killing player-booker ends the loop. it doesnt make sense. they should have killed pre-baptism booker.

Isn't that what they did? Pre-baptism Booker is player-Booker.

 

[ThaiGrocer]

The Dancing thing was a good point to bring up too. And the way she dances along the pier towards you after she distracts you too. She's very Disney, and they were inspired by her, but it's just done so well.

My childhood, oh my.
(http://www.reddit.com/r/Bioshock/comments/1b4ma6/ken_levine_wasnt_joking_when_he_said_elizabeth/)

 

[Cassius]

Will come back to this thread after I finish the game.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Isn't that what they did? Pre-baptism Booker is player-Booker.

Player-Booker remembers the Baptism, and he didn't go through with it.

 

[Moobabe]

Player-Booker remembers the Baptism, and he didn't go through with it

They do mention that he's constantly forming memories though - player Booker is not a reliable narrator.

 

[Noray]

i stil dont understand how killing player-booker ends the loop. it doesnt make sense. they should have killed pre-baptism booker.

Because during the baptism, Comstock is 'born'. There's some arguing that this is the second baptism, that it's actually the version of Booker that played through the game and got baptised AFTERWARDS and became Comstock then and then makes Columbia and the game's events happen but that seems like a huge ol' paradox that makes no sense to me. My take is that Elizabeth takes Booker back to the original baptism in 1891 after Wounded Knee, where she drowns Booker during the baptism so Comstock is never born, but the Booker that did NOT accept the baptism gets to live and has Anna, who is then never taken by Comstock because he doesn't exist in any universe anymore.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

also, "lolmultiverse" for all your plothole needs

 

[Guess Who]

Player-Booker remembers the Baptism, and he didn't go through with it

Well, you'll notice the people with nosebleeds seemed to be like some kind of combination of themselves from different universes. Like when the first "big" tear happens, and you see those soldiers with nosebleeds are now alive, but they remember being dead in the other universe? I can only guess that somehow our Booker merged with his pre-baptism self and so they are one and the same.

 

[DatDude]

Don't know how I missed this post reading the thread, thanks for the reply.

I like this interpretation. It ties it up neatly.

I could see some people being annoyed that all this depends on Liz becoming an all-seeing deity at the end and the fact that they don't really explain 'how?' (is it her pinky? or the experiments she suffered?) might annoy some people though.

Yes, it's her pinky. That's why she has that little metallic stubb in it's place.

 

[Moff]

Isn't that what they did? Pre-baptism Booker is player-Booker.

no. that choice/baptism happened long before the games events. anna is born after the baptism.

 

[Noray]

Don't know how I missed this post reading the thread, thanks for the reply.

I like this interpretation. It ties it up neatly.

I could see some people being annoyed that all this depends on Liz becoming an all-seeing deity at the end and the fact that they don't really explain 'how?' (is it her pinky? or the experiments she suffered?) might annoy some people though.

There's an audiolog from femLutece that says she has the powers because another part of her exists in another dimension (her pinky) and the universe doesn't like that. She got the powers to balance out the universes, and I guess eventually she did by killing ComstockPrime.

 

[Voice of Reason]

no. that choice/baptism happened long before the games events. anna is born after the baptism.

I know that. Did they not just go back in time for that specific timeline of Booker and killed him before he became Comstock?

 

[Spiderduff]

Oh man, I just got the title of this game. Bioshock Infinite

fuuuuuuuuuuu

OMG....YOU'RE RIGHT! I feel so ashamed...

 

[Alienous]

Female Lettuce: "I suppose the brand is his hair shirt, as he is ours."

I had to look up what hair shirt meant. I'm not exactly sure what she means in this case, but the Lettuce twins might be guilty about something or he is simply is a reminder for a reason I'm not exactly sure of.

Hair Shirt: a shirt made of rough animal hair worn next to the skin as a penance.

He's their penance. They messed with time and managed to screw things up, and they feel badly for the outcome. It is a problem they created, so it is one they try to solve.

 

[Moff]

I know that. Did they not just go back in time for that specific timeline of Booker and killed him before he became Comstock?

no they didnt. they killed player-booker. the one at the end of they timeline who already went through everything. and not the one before his "birth". they dont "smother him in his crib" like they say but kill the one at the end, which is player-booer.

it would have made sense to open a tear to that actual original baptism and player booker could have killed pre-choice booker. but way it is now doesnt make sense to me. they did exactly what they said would not be enough, they only killed the booker and cormstocks at the end if the timeline instead the one before he is "born"

 

[jacksepticeye]

OMG....YOU'RE RIGHT! I feel so ashamed...

Better late than never

 

[beastmode]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50165190&postcount=2647

.

 

[Jofamo]

I was just continuing my second play through of the game when I noticed a neat little detail, that may or may not be connected to the choice of choker.

Just after Booker fall into Elizabeth's library, he gives her the key to unlock her door that was given to him by the Letuce's in the box at the beginning. In the intro, we see Booker handle the key, but only see the Cage symbol on one side. When he hands it to Elizabeth, we see the Bird symbol, and then Elizabeth spins the key in her hand;

When the key is spun, the famous optical illusion you see above happens. Pretty neat. The cage and bird are separate, but together at the same time. Interesting.

Not only that, but the two symbols on the key are the very same symbols on the choker choice. Interesting.

 

[Voice of Reason]

no they didnt. they killed player-booker. the one at the end of they timeline who already went through everything. and not the one before his "birth". they dont "smother him in his crib" like they say but kill the one at the end, which is player-booer.

it would have made sense to open a tear to that actual original baptism and player booker could have killed pre-choice booker. but way it is now doesnt make sense to me. they did exactly what they said would not be enough, they only killed the booker and cormstocks at the end if the timeline instead the one before he is "born"

Hmm, can someone explain this? He brings up a good point. Why were there not 2 Bookers at that point, player-Booker and pre-baptism-Booker.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Maybe, maybe not. It's up to your interpretation, when they drowned him did they kill every Booker and Comstock or just every Comstock? It's possible that they only drowned the Booker that accepted baptism. Personally, I believe they did kill every Book/Comstock permutation which also made it so that Anna was never born. If they had intended for us to think that they only killed the Comstock permutation then they would have had the priest start the baptism and then the Elizabeth's hold Booker down during it till he died.

But actually, if all comstocks are dead then all elizabeths are dead. Without comstock, we just have Anna. And we never met an adult Anna. So the last elizabeth at the smothering has to go too.

 

[WanderingWind]

Can I just say that the guitar scene is one of my favorite in gaming that I can recall?

 

[pakkit]

Okay: Who was the angel Columbia? How did Comstock receive his prophecies? They seemed pretty on point, during the game.

 

[amorbis]

Is it clear what happened in the lighthouse at the beginning of the game? There's blood on the overturned table, broken dishes, scattered kitchenware, bloody handprints on wall and the bookcase, and a cracked window. Also, the tied up man has a bloody knife in front of him.

Was he fighting someone? Does it have to do with the note about "him" coming? Did I completely miss an explanation?

 

[WanderingWind]

Okay: Who was the angel Columbia? How did Comstock receive his prophecies? They seemed pretty on point, during the game.

Lady Lucete.

And the after credits scene solidifies - to me at least - that the timeline was "fixed" with the breaking of the cycle and there is a reality where Booker never sells Anna. And the lack of debt markers on the table shows he's at least partially got his shit together, so maybe the Elizabeth we all know will come into being, eventually.

Is it clear what happened in the lighthouse at the beginning of the game? There's blood on the overturned table, broken dishes, scattered kitchenware, bloody handprints on wall and the bookcase, and a cracked window. Also, the tied up man has a bloody knife in front of him.

Was he fighting someone? Does it have to do with the note about "him" coming? Did I completely miss an explanation?

Again, the Lucetes. The lighthouse keeper was warned by Comstock that he (Booker) was coming and to stop him. The Lucete's intervened and left the message. "Don't disapoint us."

 

[amorbis]

Other observations that may have been mentioned:

There are a lot of clocks in this game. The first one you see in the lighthouse doesn't move, the second one does.

You ascend the lighthouse counter-clockwise. You descent the church clockwise.

Comstock statues depict him wearing the same clothing as Booker in all the marketing material.

 

[SGRemy]

Okay: Who was the angel Columbia? How did Comstock receive his prophecies? They seemed pretty on point, during the game.

Iirc earlier in the thread they explained that comstock envisioned the angel during a near death experience. He was delusional.

And I think that the twins showed him the future with tears and that's how he knew about booker.

Correct me if I'm wrong plz

 

[Noray]

So much attention to detail in this game, just nuts.

Another observation: the preacher who baptises Booker when he gets to Columbia is the same guy (he's blind, look at the eyes) who baptises BookStock at the 'end'. He looks older to me, but I'm not 100%. Is it really him or is it Booker fabricating memories, cobbling together from what he knows?

Also, when you're at the lighthouse it's night. You ascend straight up and it's daytime in Columbia.

I think this alone makes a strong case for all of Columbia being a fabrication of Booker's as he's making new memories. (wish fulfillment)

How deep does this rabbit hole really go?

 

[Alienous]

So much attention to detail in this game, just nuts.

Another observation: the preacher who baptises Booker when he gets to Columbia is the same guy (he's blind, look at the eyes) who baptises BookStock at the 'end'. He looks older to me, but I'm not 100%. Is it really him or is it Booker fabricating memories, cobbling together from what he knows?

Also, when you're at the lighthouse it's night. You ascend straight up and it's daytime in Columbia.

I think this alone makes a strong case for all of Columbia being a fabrication of Booker's as he's making new memories. (wish fulfillment)

How deep does this rabbit hole really go?

Is it, or is it just stormy? He could be ascending above the clouds to where the sun isn't being blocked?

 

[Krentist]

Wow... did that sad distorted piano that plays when Booker drowns / the Elizabeths disappear remind anyone else of the "Memories of Green" track from Blade Runner? For a couple seconds, I really thought it was the same theme... very sad though. :C

 

[Grief.exe]

Okay: Who was the angel Columbia? How did Comstock receive his prophecies? They seemed pretty on point, during the game.

Lady Lautec showed Comstock all events through Tears.

 

[Sorian]

Hmm, can someone explain this? He brings up a good point. Why were there not 2 Bookers at that point, player-Booker and pre-baptism-Booker.

It's like I explained before, when you step through one of those doors, you enter your body from that time. You retain memories but you are entering into what is supposed to exist there. At that point, the physical body is pre-baptism Booker and the mind is player-booker. The person dying is the physical so they did kill pre-baptism Booker. The only people who don't adhere to this are Elizabeth and the twins. Elizabeth because she is like a god now and the twins because they seem to be a special case for some reason.

 

[Krentist]

Lady Lucete.
And the lack of debt markers on the table shows he's at least partially got his shit together, so maybe the Elizabeth we all know will come into being, eventually.

Unfortunately, the table is still strewn with the same racing forms that were in earlier scenes, so if we're going off of what's on the table, he might still be in debt regardless of the outcome. Check out the end of THIS VIDEO to see the table.

 

[jacksepticeye]

It's like I explained before, when you step through one of those doors, you enter your body from that time. You retain memories but you are entering into what is supposed to exist there. At that point, the physical body is pre-baptism Booker and the mind is player-booker. The person dying is the physical so they did kill pre-baptism Booker. The only people who don't adhere to this are Elizabeth and the twins. Elizabeth because she is like a god now and the twins because they seem to be a special case for some reason.

Game is so deep